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Are all Demon lords now CR 30 or do they have a range? If so what would Nurgal's CR be? Also are their any demon lords from lords of chaos you want to see in print besides the ones coming in B4, Chronicles of the Righteous, and Cyth'v'sug?
Demon lords range in CR from 26 to 30.
Nurgal's CR is in the middle. I think I've got him set at CR 28 on my master list, but I don't have access to that list here at work. Mental Note: Email master list to work!
I want to see ALL of the demon lord stats in print eventually.
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Creative Director
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Chaotic worshipers of chaotic gods must be an interesting crowd.
I'm rebelling against my rebellious god by going sober and getting a job as an accountant.
Chaotic worship doesn't work that way. Rebelling against a god is a good way to lose your faith in that god or get excommunicated or the like, regardless of your alignment.
Chaotic does not automatically mean crazy.
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Ah, yes, binding as presented in Tome of Magic initially. I was a big fan of binders back in 3.5, I loved the various stories of the vestiges, the sense of 'other', the feeling of bargaining with forces for power on a daily basis, the strange and unearthly abilities you could get. Recently ran across the occultist on the SRD, going to see if my GM would actually allow it and see how it plays...and if I like it, probably buy a hardcover. Well, I'm pretty tempted anyways. Binders are awesome, but I was worries about playing a regular one in the Golarion setting (which I usually run in) since a lot of the vestige's names are now the names of various demon lords (though, of course, they were originally almost all demons from the Lesser Key of Solomon anyways as I recall).
And it's interesting to know that samsarans usually just reincarnate themselves out of nothingness...
1) Since a rakshasa normally gets reborn normally when reincarnating, do you think it would be reasonably for a rakshasa-spawn tiefling to have been the identical twin sibling of someone a rakshasa's rebirth coopted, having been infected while in the womb, or would it be more likely the rakshasa would absorb or kill the other twin in such a scenario?
2) If a couple who both had latent celestial and fiendish heritage had children, would there be a chance, however small, that they might have both aasimar and tiefling children?
3) Since a brijidine azata has the earth, fire, and good subtypes, if they reproduced with a humanoid (...somehow...), in your opinion, would there be a possibility some of their future descendants, without other extraplanar mingling, might be ifrits or oreads, or is the fact that the brijidine is ultimately a celestial and not from an elemental plane what really matters, making said descendants either aasimars or just regular humanoids?
1) Maybe. Depends on the story you wanted to tell.
2) Yes.
3) Nope. Ifrits and oreads and the like come along as the result of genies or elemental magic influincing a bloodline. Brijidines being full on azatas means that their influence would perhaps some day result in aasimars—maybe with some fiery or earthy features or the like, but they wouldn't be ifrets or oreads.
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Chaotic worshipers of chaotic gods must be an interesting crowd.
I'm rebelling against my rebellious god by going sober and getting a job as an accountant.
Chaotic worship doesn't work that way. Rebelling against a god is a good way to lose your faith in that god or get excommunicated or the like, regardless of your alignment.
Chaotic does not automatically mean crazy.
Unless it does...
Doesn't matter, I was just making a joke. Failed.
Anyway, what is up with the choice of demon lords to stat up? I thought we had an unspoken agreement that Abraxas would be one of them. I'm very disappointed James.
Regardless, how would you rate Abraxas power level, in terms of CR and relative to other demon lords?
What do you think of disgaea series 9999 character levels & if it would work in a d20?
Hello, I am back with another question, this time it concerns outsiders, and the killing of said outsiders.
I seem to recall, that back in ye olden planescapy days, if you slew an outsider, that was not called by a calling spell, it would disappear and reform on its native plane. Only by slaying it on its home plane would you completely destroy it. That or it had to be called, for it do truly die, once you knocked the last hp off it.
Does it still work this way in Golarion? If an outsider planeshifts to the material plane, and another is called, and they both get knocked to 0 hp, what happens?
Thanks in advance?
-Nearyn
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Creative Director
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Chaotic worshipers of chaotic gods must be an interesting crowd.
I'm rebelling against my rebellious god by going sober and getting a job as an accountant.
Chaotic worship doesn't work that way. Rebelling against a god is a good way to lose your faith in that god or get excommunicated or the like, regardless of your alignment.
Chaotic does not automatically mean crazy.
Unless it does...
Doesn't matter, I was just making a joke. Failed.
Anyway, what is up with the choice of demon lords to stat up? I thought we had an unspoken agreement that Abraxas would be one of them. I'm very disappointed James.
Regardless, how would you rate Abraxas power level, in terms of CR and relative to other demon lords?
Abraxas is CR 30. And part of what makes demons demonic is their ability to destroy, including the destruction of promises (even those that are unspoken). Mwa hah hah and stuff!
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You're working at work on a Saturday? Must be GenCon prep? Is anyone there with you?
Was only me yesterday at the office; Pathfinder #76 is what brought me in. I should probably be in there today as well... getting it to the editors before we all go to Gen Con is important, and it's been hit with some delays in the form of other stuff I had to do.
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1) Is there a particular reason why there aren't any chaos/law planetouched out there, or is that just something Paizo hasn't gotten around to statting up?
2) Has Paizo gone into the origins of hags somewhere before, or is that something you haven't thought about? I was kind of wondering what ties them all together, though I would guess Gyronna is involved, but that could be the other way around (hag that became a demon lord and became the patron of her former race?). I was mostly wondering in particular because of their ability to form a coven seems to imply an unusual, supernatural connection where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts...when they can actually work together, of course.
3) In your opinion, presuming the vampire is medium or smaller, and the construct is large or larger, do you think it would be possible to construct a golem that the vampire's coffin is integrated into, with a tiny hole for the vampire to slip into via gaseous form, or would having what equates to a hollow cavity inside the golem ruin the structural integrity? (Sadly I have a hard time imagining a technically adept vampire managing to successfully install his coffin inside or on an Annihilator robot...)
1) 3.5 created some law and chaos focused planetouched. Pathifnder doesn't even USE the word planetouched. Different goals and different desires, basically. We might someday expand on this type of outsider, but for the most part our lawful neutral and chaotic neutral and neutral outsiders are simply not nearly as likely to mix with mortal creatures in the way that azatas and angels and demons and devils and the like are.
2) We've talked about hags before, yes. The most significant location is in Classic Horrors, but I can't recall off the top of my head what we said of their origins, if any. Gyronna is a pretty localized regional minor deity in the grand scheme of things... personally, I'd rather have the demon lord Mestama be more associated with hag creation, but again... not sure if we've explored that.
3) Sure! It's a weird concept though, and one that really doesn't play well with the classic vampire themes and traditions we prefer to work with, though.
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Creative Director
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Hello, I am back with another question, this time it concerns outsiders, and the killing of said outsiders.
I seem to recall, that back in ye olden planescapy days, if you slew an outsider, that was not called by a calling spell, it would disappear and reform on its native plane. Only by slaying it on its home plane would you completely destroy it. That or it had to be called, for it do truly die, once you knocked the last hp off it.
Does it still work this way in Golarion? If an outsider planeshifts to the material plane, and another is called, and they both get knocked to 0 hp, what happens?
Thanks in advance?
-Nearyn
There's some conflicting rules and flavor in older editions of D&D as to what happened to an outsider when you slew it after it had been conjured.
On Golarion, if you use a calling spell to conjure an outsider, and then kill it, it dies as surely as if you killed it on its home plane. If you instead use a summon spell to conjure an outsider, the thing you summon isn't real before and after the summon spell ends. It doesn't "go back" to an outer plane when you kill it or dismiss it or the spell ends... it just stops existing, just as it didn't exist before you cast the spell in the first place.
An outsider at 0 hit points is treated the same as any other living creature at 0 hit points.
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Do you have any plans to use the demon Azazel any time soon?
Also what is the backstory on the warped ones from the new worldwound book? Are they people who have died and become corrupted within the worldwound or are they something else entirely?
No plans at this point to use Azazel.
The warped ones, as detailed in "The Worldwound," are the results of certain parts of the Abyss that are so powerful that they can do their thing on non-sinful souls or even living humanoids. When these energies work on an Abyssal petitioner (a larva), the result is a demon. When they can affect other souls or petitioners or even living creatures, the result is a warped one. You don't have to die to become a warped one.
James, have you played a monk character? Also, what is your vision of a monk in Golarion? Do you se them Eastern flavored or not? Or are they as diverse as human cultures?
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James, have you played a monk character? Also, what is your vision of a monk in Golarion? Do you se them Eastern flavored or not? Or are they as diverse as human cultures?
I've played a monk a few times, but not all that often. I tend to prefer chaotic characters overall, and that generally steers me away from monks.
As for how they work on Golarion... they are diverse. There are absolutely eastern flavored monks, but there's also western flavored ones. Depends what religion/philosophy you want the monk to follow.
Thanks James!
Is it ok if I post some of the mythic flaws from the playtest to my Wrath of the Righteous recruitment board? Some have asked what they are and I wanted to provide an example. But I understand if you'd rather I didn't post playtest material.
There's some conflicting rules and flavor in older editions of D&D as to what happened to an outsider when you slew it after it had been conjured.
On Golarion, if you use a calling spell to conjure an outsider, and then kill it, it dies as surely as if you killed it on its home plane. If you instead use a summon spell to conjure an outsider, the thing you summon isn't real before and after the summon spell ends. It doesn't "go back" to an outer plane when you kill it or dismiss it or the spell ends... it just stops existing, just as it didn't exist before you cast the spell in the first place.
An outsider at 0 hit points is treated the same as any other living creature at 0 hit points.
Thanks alot :)
Then what happens when the outsider is outside his plane, but is not called, nor summoned?
Efreeti can plane-shift(Which I believe is a teleportation subschool spell, not a calling spell), so if an Efreeti shifts to the Material Plane, and then gets knocked to 0 hp, does he die permanently? Or does he reform on the plane for fire?
-Nearyn
Greetings again, James!
With Wrath of the Righteous coming up, and a part of it touching the Midnight Isles, I'd like to inquire about Nocticula's subordinate (Majordomus? Second in command?), Shamira.
Is Shamira going to be of relevance in the mentioned AP?
Are we going to see stats for her? A short write-up?
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Thanks James!
Is it ok if I post some of the mythic flaws from the playtest to my Wrath of the Righteous recruitment board? Some have asked what they are and I wanted to provide an example. But I understand if you'd rather I didn't post playtest material.
IIRC mythic flaws were either removed from the final draft of mythic rules or are presented as optional. Either way, they're no longer mandatory.
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James, we recently rolled our character's backgrounds but we are having some difficulty having them tie in to Golarion, the game is set in the most present day of Golarion and our characters are of middle age in human terms, but one was supposed to have witness a natural distaster and the other war, even though their backstories tie them to Absalom and the inner sea region, any thoughts on what these events could have been?
Speaking of GenCon, this question is a bit out of left field.
My fiance is an artist, and she'd definitely be interested in doing work for Paizo. I know she can just email a link to her portfolio site to Sarah Robinson (and I'll make sure she does so again, now that the site has been revamped). We can't make it to GenCon ourselves, but we have a friend who is going (in part because he's moving to Indy for school).
Would there be any point in giving him some samples of her work to bring with him, or would that level of removal between the artist and the person carrying the art render it useless?
IIRC mythic flaws were either removed from the final draft of mythic rules or are presented as optional. Either way, they're no longer mandatory.Thanks James!
Is it ok if I post some of the mythic flaws from the playtest to my Wrath of the Righteous recruitment board? Some have asked what they are and I wanted to provide an example. But I understand if you'd rather I didn't post playtest material.
Thanks Gorbacz...I do remember that. But at my table it IS mandatory :-D
I was wondering the player race description for catfolk [advanced race guide] seems to be nomadic so could a player be from almost any part of golarian in campaigns without seeming odd in adventure paths if i've read it correctly?
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Thanks James!
Is it ok if I post some of the mythic flaws from the playtest to my Wrath of the Righteous recruitment board? Some have asked what they are and I wanted to provide an example. But I understand if you'd rather I didn't post playtest material.
You can if you want, but you might want to wait for the book to come out before recruiting players and having them make characters. The mythic playtest did its job, after all, and showed us a LOT of ways to change and enhance and improve the rules.
I don't mind if folks repost the playtest stuff, but just know that it's no longer accurate.
1. Why would a cleric of Desna feel safer in a nation of devil worshipers than in one of militant atheists?
2. What's going to be the lowest CR for Empyreals? Also, will they have realm powers similar to those of demon lords?
3. A similar question, is Hastur going to be in Bestiary 4?
4. If a monster is stated up outside of an adventure path then does that mean it's much less likely there's going to be an AP for it?
5. What's "Continuing the Campaign" going to look like for Wrath of the Righteous? Will there be anything left to do for a level 20/tier 10 PC?
6. Say there's genuinely benevolent ruler who takes good care of her queendom but nonetheless enjoys the sorts of decadent luxuries you'd expect from evil rulers (but without the misery or drain on the economy). What would her alignment be?
7. What's the difference between neutral good and chaotic good? Not "what are they?" but "how are they different?"
8. How exactly does the evocation school relate to the virtue of kindness?
9. What's the lowest CR a monster needs to be before it can grant spells like a deity?
10. Why do you think artists like to draw half-elves with beards?
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There's some conflicting rules and flavor in older editions of D&D as to what happened to an outsider when you slew it after it had been conjured.
On Golarion, if you use a calling spell to conjure an outsider, and then kill it, it dies as surely as if you killed it on its home plane. If you instead use a summon spell to conjure an outsider, the thing you summon isn't real before and after the summon spell ends. It doesn't "go back" to an outer plane when you kill it or dismiss it or the spell ends... it just stops existing, just as it didn't exist before you cast the spell in the first place.
An outsider at 0 hit points is treated the same as any other living creature at 0 hit points.
Thanks alot :)
Then what happens when the outsider is outside his plane, but is not called, nor summoned?
Efreeti can plane-shift(Which I believe is a teleportation subschool spell, not a calling spell), so if an Efreeti shifts to the Material Plane, and then gets knocked to 0 hp, does he die permanently? Or does he reform on the plane for fire?
-Nearyn
There's no difference between an outsider not on his home plane between him being conjured there by a calling effect or because he "walked" there. An efreeti who plane shifts to the Material Plane is handled exactly the same as one who is called there.
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IIRC mythic flaws were either removed from the final draft of mythic rules or are presented as optional. Either way, they're no longer mandatory.Thanks James!
Is it ok if I post some of the mythic flaws from the playtest to my Wrath of the Righteous recruitment board? Some have asked what they are and I wanted to provide an example. But I understand if you'd rather I didn't post playtest material.
Correct; they're optional parts of the game. They don't even appear in the character creation chapter at all, in fact.
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Creative Director
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Greetings again, James!
With Wrath of the Righteous coming up, and a part of it touching the Midnight Isles, I'd like to inquire about Nocticula's subordinate (Majordomus? Second in command?), Shamira.
Is Shamira going to be of relevance in the mentioned AP?
Are we going to see stats for her? A short write-up?
Folks eager to see more about Shamira, including art and stats, will not be disappointed (I hope!) by Wrath of the Righteous, Part 4.
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James, we recently rolled our character's backgrounds but we are having some difficulty having them tie in to Golarion, the game is set in the most present day of Golarion and our characters are of middle age in human terms, but one was supposed to have witness a natural distaster and the other war, even though their backstories tie them to Absalom and the inner sea region, any thoughts on what these events could have been?
Depending on the scope of the natural disaster you want your character to have seen, if you're okay with it being more regional it could have been an earthquake somewhere on or near Absalom, or a powerful winter storm that caused some flooding.
As for war, the best bet there is to either have traveled to Molthune/Nirmathas, Galt, the Worldwound border, or the Taldor/Qadira border.
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Speaking of GenCon, this question is a bit out of left field.
My fiance is an artist, and she'd definitely be interested in doing work for Paizo. I know she can just email a link to her portfolio site to Sarah Robinson (and I'll make sure she does so again, now that the site has been revamped). We can't make it to GenCon ourselves, but we have a friend who is going (in part because he's moving to Indy for school).
Would there be any point in giving him some samples of her work to bring with him, or would that level of removal between the artist and the person carrying the art render it useless?
Being there in person for a portfolio review is really key. I would suggest instead simply asking your friend to track down one of our art directors and tell them the situation, then give them a card or something that has a link to your fiance's online portfolio.
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Yeah, I know 'planetouched' isn't official for Pathfinder, but I don't think Pathfinder has its own term for it yet, so I still tend to use planetouched since it's easier than saying 'the various races that are the product of extraplanar contamination' or something along those lines.
And yeah, was thinking about the vampire with a construct coffin after a discussion with some friends about how vampires might deal with having to travel around a lot, ranging from just carrying their coffins on their backs (hey, they're strong), to actually enchanting their coffins to be capable of flight, to silly concepts like spiked adamantine coffins with flamethrower enchantments...though I was also influenced somewhat by Alling Third, that Numerian cyber-lich mentioned in the Foul Immortals section of Shadows of Gallowspire, who I thought was, well, awesome.
Anyways!
1) Are ratfolk mostly in the Darklands under Tian Xia on Golarion (I know they're on Akiton as well), or do they have a significant presence in other parts of Golarion?
2) Lamias seem to be entirely female; is that actually the case? If so, do they reproduce with males from other species, via asexual reproduction, or do they not reproduce at all, being cursed by...Pharasma as I recall?
3) I've heard some people say that changelings are infertile, given that they're essentially the larval forms of hags; is that true?
Yup; we don't have a term for it yet because we don't really want a term for it, frankly. The Outer Planes are more diverse than the Material Plane, and it's always weirded me out to think of ALL zero HD races who aren't on the Material Plane are grouped under one name, despite the fact that they're more diverse than Material Plane races.
1) There are ratfolk in the Inner Sea region and elsewhere, but not to the extent they are in Tian Xia.
2) Yes, lamias are female. We haven't covered their methods of reproduction in detail yet, but they're not aesexual.
3) Not sure, frankly. That's more of a Wes question.
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Creative Director
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Hi James,
What sort of CR range would you expect the Malebranche to be?
Gah! Sorry, James. Didn't realise you'd already answered this one 176 pages ago. My search-fu failed me. I die.
No worries! It's a long thread, and I certainly didn't remember answering the question.
The CR range of the Malebranche isn't something we've nailed down, so it's something that can change as the needs of the game change... did my most recent answer line up with the one I gave 176 pages ago?
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I was wondering the player race description for catfolk [advanced race guide] seems to be nomadic so could a player be from almost any part of golarian in campaigns without seeming odd in adventure paths if i've read it correctly?
That's up to your GM.
Officially, catfolk are from southern Garund, so they absolutely could wander north into the Inner Sea region. The further from the southern edge of the map you get, the more unusual catfolk will be, and I wouldn't be surprised in some of the more northern countries for folks to react to a catfolk as if it were a likely-wants-to-eat-us weretiger or some sort of lycanthrope or monster. AKA: They would seem odd in some APs, yes...
...Unless your GM doesn't want that to be the case. We've had a catfolk show up in an AP already, in any event (Shattered Star) so there's certainly a precedence for them being in the Inner Sea region in print.
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Creative Director
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1. Why would a cleric of Desna feel safer in a nation of devil worshipers than in one of militant atheists?
2. What's going to be the lowest CR for Empyreals? Also, will they have realm powers similar to those of demon lords?
3. A similar question, is Hastur going to be in Bestiary 4?
4. If a monster is stated up outside of an adventure path then does that mean it's much less likely there's going to be an AP for it?
5. What's "Continuing the Campaign" going to look like for Wrath of the Righteous? Will there be anything left to do for a level 20/tier 10 PC?
6. Say there's genuinely benevolent ruler who takes good care of her queendom but nonetheless enjoys the sorts of decadent luxuries you'd expect from evil rulers (but without the misery or drain on the economy). What would her alignment be?
7. What's the difference between neutral good and chaotic good? Not "what are they?" but "how are they different?"
8. How exactly does the evocation school relate to the virtue of kindness?
9. What's the lowest CR a monster needs to be before it can grant spells like a deity?
10. Why do you think artists like to draw half-elves with beards?
1) Because just being a devil worshiper doesn't guarentee your'e going to be antagonistic toward a traveling cleric of Desna. The same is not the case in Rahadoum.
2) If by "Empyreals" you mean "Empyreal lords," then they are the same range as demon lords: CR 26–CR 30
3) So far, we've revealed that there's 3 Great Old Ones in Bestiary 4, and that one of those 3 is Cthulhu. That's all for now!
4) I'm not sure what you're asking here... please rephrase the question?
5) You'll need to wait and see!
6) Depends on the nature of the decadent luxuries, and whether or not she makes her country suffer just so she can enjoy her luxuries. She'd probably be lawful neutral or chaotic good or chaotic neutral or neutral, I would guess.
7) I'm not looking to start or get into a giant alignment debate, but the best way to see how I envision those differences is to compare Sarenrae to Desna, I guess. There's LOTS of ways they can differ, but I generally see neutral good as being the friendliest and most forgiving of the good guy alignments, and chaotic good as being the most passionate and creative.
8) It doesn't really, does it? The Thassilonian schools were built to match their sins, and that is why they map over the way they do to the virtues. It's possible that before the several thousand years Thassilon associated evocation with wrath that there were a lot more "helpful" or "constructive" or "shelter" spells in the school; some still exist today, like floating disc, continual flame, daylight, tiny hut, resilient sphere, the wall spells, sending, contingency, and so on.
9) CR has nothing to do with it. That's something that a monster gains the ability to do either because the GM wants to give the monster the ability, or because the monster gained the ability via the mythic rules. For me, giving this power to a monster that's below CR 20 would be very weird, since once it can grant spells, it's a demigod, and demigods should be powerful.
10) Because the game's most famous half-elf, Tanis from Dragonlance, had a beard.
Being there in person for a portfolio review is really key. I would suggest instead simply asking your friend to track down one of our art directors and tell them the situation, then give them a card or something that has a link to your fiance's online portfolio.Speaking of GenCon, this question is a bit out of left field.
My fiance is an artist, and she'd definitely be interested in doing work for Paizo. I know she can just email a link to her portfolio site to Sarah Robinson (and I'll make sure she does so again, now that the site has been revamped). We can't make it to GenCon ourselves, but we have a friend who is going (in part because he's moving to Indy for school).
Would there be any point in giving him some samples of her work to bring with him, or would that level of removal between the artist and the person carrying the art render it useless?
Thank you so much.
That's about what we expected; in the end the question really boiled down to "do we send a few business cards, a couple of samples, or a full printed portfolio?"
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1) Considering the Realm of the Mammoth Lords is right by the Worldwound, are there a larger than average number of tiefling barbarians there?
2) If two people both possessed by shadow demons reproduced, would there be a chance that the offspring would be affected by these circumstances, like being an abyssal sorcerer or even a tiefling or half-fiend? Though that might be mentioned in Demons Revisited, I suppose...
3) Can an android reproduce with a humanoid, or are they not quite that complete an organism?
1) There are likely more tieflings in the eastern Mammoth Lords than elsewhere, yes, but it's not a particularly large amount.
2) This topic is indeed covered in Demons Revisited. Page 29 and page 30, in fact.
3) They can have sex with humanoids, but can't get pregnant or impregnate.
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Creative Director
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"The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook."
Hi James. If the wizard's INT mod later increases, does he get to retroactively add 1st-level spells to his book?
Not unless the GM says otherwise.
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What IS the general opinion of most nations about the Pathfinder Society? It seems the more I read of them (especially from the Pathfinder Society unlikable or is it just me? thread) the less awesome they seem to be, utilizing unethical methods and hoarding the info and artifacts for themselves, becoming so bad there's actually a special interest group among them dedicated to steering the Society towards good ends (The Silver Crusade) and one dedicated to advocating for Pathfinder agents treated callously by the Decemvirate (The Shadow Lodge). And their treatment of Eando Kline and his warnings speaks VERY badly of them.
Simply put, it seems like most info we've received on the Pathfinder Society makes them seem more like egotistical jerks, more like Belloc than Indy. More like Heinrich Schliemann than Howard Carter. That they're not concerned with the study and analysis of ancient history, but more with the treasures and magic they left behind, and instead of sharing it with the world, only care about bragging about it to their colleagues.
Just a thought on the whole god/goddess profile:
Venus:
Sky (Venus Caelestis)
Illness (Venus Calva)
Water (Venus Cloacina)
Lust (Venus Erycina)
Luck (Venus Felix)
Motherhood (Venus Genetrix)
Beauty (Venus Kallipygos)
Freedom (Venus Libertina)
War (Venus Victrix)
This is a real goddess that many people worshiped for a long time, and it is clear to see that very many different ideas can be found in her worship, and many of these overlap with other gods and goddesses in the same Pantheon: Juno for Motherhood, Apollo for Illness, Mars and Minerva for War, Mercury for Luck, Jupiter and Uranus for Sky.
James,
Why are Shinigami (in the Bestiary 3) neither Kami nor Psychopomps?