I've never had an issue in my games with nova psions
I have. But he was a complete abusive munchkin. No matter the game, he always exploited every last loop hole to make his character better then everyone elses. In D&D, he always played a psion. I don't play with him anymore.
I've never had an issue in my games with nova psionsI have. But he was a complete abusive munchkin. No matter the game, he always exploited every last loop hole to make his character better then everyone elses. In D&D, he always played a psion. I don't play with him anymore.
That in case and point has nothing to do with the Psion class being overpowered but more of a Character Flaw in the people you played with. They are the reason that most Psionics are met with hesitence and some out right hate. No one really likes a min/maxer as it takes away from the flavour of your particular game.
|
Thank you Eric Mona, for bringing this question up.
In my experience Psionics is one of those things in D&D that most people already have a set opinion about. In my experience most people hate it and a few people love it. I happen to be part of the latter crowd. I have enjoyed reading this thread, because there has been lots of excellent thoughts put out, beyond the I hate it/ love it arguments we are used to.
I am going to borrow Quandary’s format for my response to your question, because these questions will be a good outline by which to arrange my thoughts.
What does Psionics mean to you?
The first adjective that springs to mind is, different, miss-understood, and alien. Whether it happens to be culturally different in terms of having the flavor of the mysticism of channeling of Chi with a (in very broad strokes) Chinese or Japanese feel to it, or the mysticism of Pranic energy and Chakras, with a yogi guru feel of the Indian subcontinent. Or whether it has a completely Aberrant feel to it, in terms of a HP Lovcraftian Aboleth or Mind-flayer, feel to it.
But different is the primary adjective I can think of.
How can I get you to buy a Psionics book and use it in my campaign?
In short put the name of Psionics on it and like a lemming I will buy it. Heck I hopped off the cliff and bought the poorly written, poorly edited, and poorly thought out Complete Psionics book by WotC.
A Psionics book unfortunatly often has to pull 3 in 1 duty. It often has to be a player’s handbook, with Psionic classes and Psionic powers, a dungeon masters guide, with Psionic items and a Psionic setting, and a monster manual with Psionic monsters in it. There is no way to package all of that in 1 book.
I don’t think you necessarily need to provide a race. Perhaps submit a suggestion for a sub race, for say humans, maybe drown, duegar, dwarves, something like that, heck the elves have 3 established sub races. Maybe include a little detail about how these sub races fit into their culture at large.
You don’t necessarily need to put in new classes. You don’t need to reinvent the wheel. You could use the classes already made, and re tweak them, so some I s are dotted and ts are crossed. For example, what happens to a Psion when his psi-crystal is destroyed? While I think the Core Classes of the PHB needed a little tweaking little power upgrade, I don’t think the Psionic classes need a little power upgrade. A little tweaking perhaps, but not more power.
You could include a section on how the Psion, the Erudite (Psionic wizard in terms of versatility), the Wilder, The Psychic warrior, Devine mind, Ardent, Lurk fit into the Golaron world. I would like to see a Psionic trickster rogue added.
A brief powers section might be useful, to “update” some troublesome ones, and introduce a few new ones. I thought the section on Psionics in the setting book was excellent.
Items are a thorny issue. Perhaps it is best to roll it into magic items, and include a brief discussion on putting a Psionic flavor to an item by using a name like Dorje, for wand or power stone for scroll. (Weather it is a rock or piece of paper doesn’t matter in the end as long as they function the same with the rules).
As for setting and monsters I am sure that will be the fun part. I have already mentioned the possible flavors of Chi mysticism, of Gurus and Chakras, and the aberrant alien flavor of aboleths and mind flayers.
One of my friends is an editor at Asimov magazine. One of his objections to Picnics has been the “sci fi” flavor to it. Perhaps removing some of the Freudian terms like Id insinuation and ego whip, might go along way to satisfying that crowd, Perhaps Psionics could fill the “mysticism” niche.
I suppose one problem is the sorcerer and the psion and the warlock are all elbowing for similar turf. And the psion and the sorcerer are elbowing for the same thematic turf because they are both drawing from power within.
Just as the arcane and divine manipulate magic from different worldviews, I wouldn’t mind Psionics, being a third form of magical manipulation, but from even different worldview.
There are not many good sources of inspiration for psionics. I suppose the Dyrni novels are, but there are not many models in western Tolkien inspired fantasy literature to draw upon. On the other hand, I am sure there is more inspiration then you can shake a stick at with Indian Chinese and Japanese mythology.
In terms of rulebooks as sources of inspiration, of course the Expanded Psionics rulebook is a good source. The Complete Psionic book might have a nugget or two. Anther source might be the folks at Dream scarred press. They put out a good book called Untapped potential. There is also Hyperconsciousness by Bruce Cordell. One book that would be excellent is the Will and the Way. It was a Dark Sun supplement. It included lots of fluff, such as the “will” was once capacity for raw psionic power, and the Way was the refinement of psioinic power though study and meditation, expressed in character classes. The book also talked about psionics and the law. Lots of useful stuff (I used that for Magic and the law in my campaign world)
What is an absolute deal breaker?
Well unfortunalty you cant keep all of the people happy all of the time. You have to balance the desires of the people who thoroughly dislike the name Psionics, and will not even consider a ‘psionics system” and others for whom psionics is a sacred cow. Nerd rage, it is unavoidable, you will probably anger some people.
But for you, the bottom line is will a product like this sell, and how can we meet our customers’ likes, even though they are widely varied.
For myself I can say this simply. I like variety. I liked that in the 3.5 system there were 4 varieties of characters that primarily used magic. There was the wizard, there was the Sorcerer, and there was the Psion and there was the Warlock. The wizard was very flexible, with his ability to fill in his spell slots as desired in the beginning of the day. The sorcerer could cast his spells at will, from a limited selection. The Psion used energy points to fuel his powers, he could choose at will from a limited selection, but could also choose how powerful to make his powers. The warlock had an at will attack ability namely the eldritch blast, and a handful of spell like abilities he could use at will. Presumably these were drawn from a pact with an otherworldly entity.
I like variety. We all have our sacred cows. Mine would be the power point system. . I like having the Vancian spell system, along with a power point system. Removing the power point system would be a deal breaker for me. Modifying the power point system would be fine, changing the amount of points a class gets is fine. I like the mechanic of each power costing x and an augment costs y with the rule, you can only spend power points on a power equal to your level. Please leave that alone.
Ironically also another deal breaker for me will be if Psioncis is a completely separate system, it needs to be completely transparent with the magic system. I don’t mind if you remove detect psionics and dispel psionics and replace them with detect magic and dispel magic. I don’t mind if you roll Psi craft, and Knowledge psionics into spell craft and knowledge arcane, or Autohypnosis into Concentration. Oh by the way, I would like to toss out a vote for keeping concentration and spell craft separate skills. Wizards are rarely hurting for skill points. Rogues always are. With psionics the concentration skill has a “psionic focus” mechanic that works with many psionic feats, which I like.
I suppose at the end of the day, I don’t even mind if you replace Psionics with some other name like Mysticism. Please keep the power points mechanic. That’s my sacred cow.
Well those are by bag full of coppers.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
James,
We're looking for a quick, easy-to-apply rule that keeps psionics throttled per encounter.
Let psionic characters take one point of nonlethal damage per psionic point they use. If you use more psionic points than you have current hit points, you go unconscious.
And yes, a psionic backed by a cleric healing all those points, or undead psionics, are now scarier. But "take out the cleric first" is a good tactic, and psi-liches are suppoed to be scary.
|
So correct me if I'm wrong...
But does the current XPH (errata and all) still allow a 20th level psion to effectively use all his PSPs to cast 9th-level psionic powers? If it does, then the system is still fundamentally flawed, in my opinion.
Here's how I understand things: Leaving bonus spells/bonus PSPs out of the equation, a 20th level sorcerer can cast 6 ninth level spells a day. He can cast a lot more lower-level spells, of couse, but he can't "swap out" 3 3rd level spells to cast another 9th level spell. He's still limited to his 6 9th level spells a day, and when he casts those, he still has 54 spells of levels 0 to 8 to rely on through the day, and after casting his 6 9th level spells, he can keep going and doesn't have to sit down and rest to recover those spells. If a psionic 9th level power and an arcane 9th level spell are both balanced so that they both do 100 points of damage per use, that sorcerer can do 600 points of damage a day with his 9th level spells.
The 20th level psion, on the other hand, has 343 power points a day. Casting a 9th level spell is 17 points. Since his potential is not locked in to specific tiers of power, he can use all his points to use a 9th level power 20 times in a day (with a little change left over). Sure, he does 2,000 points of damage, but at one spell per round, he's used up pretty much all of his power in 20 rounds, whereas the sorcerer has stuff going on for 60 rounds. Of course, the sorcerer's powers are increasingly less potent... in the end, the psion does more damage FASTER than the sorcerer, and depletes himself three times as quickly as the sorcerer.
In the end, what this does is lets the psion go nova; he unloads a disproportionately HUGE amount of power (which marginalizes all non-psionic classes; this is bad) and then has to stop for the day to replenish his stores when the rest of the party is only 1/3 depleted (which either makes the psion player have to spend 2/3 of his time being a high-hit point commoner or gives the game a 15-minute day...
To be fair, the Sorcerer or Wizard has an advantage here though. Their spells automatically scale. A fireball (3rd level spell) thrown by a 20th level Sorcerer is MUCH different than one thrown by a 6th level Sorcerer. A 3rd level spell thrown by a 20th level psion at its default points, however, does the same as a 3rd level spell thrown by a 5th level psion.
So yes, that Sorcerer you used as an example only has 6 spells that START as 9th level, but he has a lot more that scale upwards from what they once began as. The psion, on the other hand, can blow his points on a lot of 9th level powers, or boost other spells to 'become' 9th level.
Of course, I don't have the XPH on hand, so correct me if I'm talking out of my ass. :)
I'm dead set against psionics in fantasy games. While much of this is based on the terrible imbalances of psionics in earlier editions of D&D/AD&D, the main bone of contention I have is that it doesn't suit my vision of fantasy adventure.
Astruksyk, I felt almost the same way as you. I was very put out by 2e Psionics and the abuses some of my players tried to ring out of it. It never felt like it fit or was balanced properly...
I had a 180º turn on this view not even a year ago, with Wizards Secrets of Sarlona book. It was so well done and meshed so well with the fantasy environment that it completely changed my attribute toward 3.5 Psionics (which my group feels is the best D&D psionics rules out yet, and I tend to agree now). I actually went back to the store within that same week to buy Complete Psionics.
Sure there some points that need to be looked at in a revision. The Energy line of powers needs to be reworked, it should be reflex only. I've had to many psion characters (well just the one player with multiple characters really) use this to specifically target bad saves on the fly, making that power several notches above most Wizard spell of the same relative level.
But we really are talking about some fairly limited cases here. It would be like saying Arcane magic is totally overpowered because of Polymorph in 3.5.
Psionics should operate on the same saves and resistances as magic, as per the Psionics Magic transparency rules that are already on the books. It has worked very well in my games to date. Although that does come to a point, one problem I've had is integrating Psinoic Items into a normally non-psionic environment. More psionic items that had some function for non-psionic characters would help this I think.
|
My 'idea' of psionics is psychic stuff;
Telepathy, telekinesis, esp, clairvoyance, precognition, mind over body, apportation.
*Not* 'create matter' or 'create fire' or 'summon astral construct.' (Yes, yes, I've read Julian May, but defining psionics by one authors writings would be like defining vampires by the writings of Brian Lumley, IMO...)
However, that's not what we've ever really had in D&D, and I agree with the many fans of psionics upthread that it would make more sense to adapt the current 3.5 psionics rules to be less abusable through overchanneling or whatever, and more flexible in other ways, than introducing yet another damn psionics system, which is just about the last thing we need, as it would fragment what is already a niche audience (psionics lovers) within a niche audience (3.5 fan remnants). Designing yet another Psionics system would fractionalize (and *factionalize*) that already smaller audience, and represent a whole lot of work for an increasingly small market.
If 3.5 had never bothered to create a psionics system that worked, however kludgily, I would have recommended Green Ronin's Psychic core class as an interesting take on the subject. (Printed in both the GR Advanced Player's Guide and the Psychic's Handbook.) But that is a ship that's already sailed, so the only solution that will satisfy the current fans of psionics is to tweak the SRD rules to be less 'breakable.'
Just like a Pathfinder Wizard, Sorcerer, etc. the Psion should not be able to blow all of his spell-slots/psionic points in one 'alpha strike,' but *should* have some sort of 'free' ability he can use at will. Just as a Pathfinder Wizard or Sorcerer doesn't turn into a dude with a dagger when his spell slots run out, a Pathfinder Psion shouldn't be similarly castrated when he runs out of power points. He may not be able to do the really impressive stuff, but he doesn't stop being a Psion...
As long as there is a decent Soulknife conversion, I'm probably going to have to get any Pathfinder Psionics product anyway. I love the Soulknife, particularly the fact that it doesn't have to have any psionic powers and can be played in an otherwise psi-free campaign without messing anything up.
I think this discussion has shown that we are actually talking about two different things that people want:
1) Psionics (and the different/alien flavor it includes)
2) A point-based spell system (and the different flavor and mechanics it involves).
Personally, I have always hated the idea of psionics in a fantasy campaign - it just feels too "science-fiction-y", and the fact that it has always been a totally separate system reinforces this mindset.
However, if you were to incorporate psionics as a third power source (as others have mentioned, in addition to divine and arcane) that uses essentially a vancian magic system...I think it would feel far more integrated into the game.
You could then ALSO present a point-based alternative or template or option or whatever, that could be applied to ANY spell-using class. The issues that pertain to such a system would still need to be worked out, obviously, but there have been several good ideas mentioned already.
I truly believe this kind of approach is the only way to incorporate psionics without annoying a large chunk of the player base. By presenting it this way, you would be allowing more possibilities, without presenting anything that has to be fundamentally alien to the game. You'd be able to draw in people that have always hated psionics (such as myself!) by presenting it in a more compatable way, while also giving those desiring a separate system the ability to use one. (Being able to satisfy the significant number of users that would like a point-based spell system would be an added benefit!).
Personally, as much as I love psionics (and I do!), the concept of psychic individuals occupies a very counter intuitive place in fantasy gaming because it resonates so much with science fiction. When asked to think of psionic characters in popular culture most of us immediately recall mutant X-Men like Professor X and Jean Grey, or the River Tam from Serenity. Psionic ability is rationalized by science fiction writers and their ilk as a scientific phenomenon due to anomalous cellular activity or irregular brain patterns or some other such nonsense. These concepts, to me, feel sometimes out of place in fantasy and I have my suspicions that many of the people who hate psionics feel this way too.
When it comes to the differences between magic and psionics, I feel like that certain assumptions need to be made. If magic (at least arcane magic) is generally believed to operate because of the manipulation of invisible energies, and the reorganization of which brings about the spellcaster's desired change, then how do psionics work? Does the psion simply will things into or out of existence? What about precognition? Or telepathy?
I know I haven't contributed much in the way of suggestions or recommendations for the Pathfinder RPG Psionics stuff, but I hope that the material will strongly consider the differences between magic and psionics and hopefully will further investigate how these two forces differ in the operation.
I actually like the Expanded Psionics Handbook, so I'd go with minor changes to the SRD only.
|
Just chiming in with my own answer the question:
Psionics to me are two things:
First and foremost, they are different and alien. I don't like systems where SR counts equally to Psionics and etc. It should be something unusual and exotic.
Second are the different classes.
Psions I see as the masters of versatility. They have every one of their powers available to them as long as they have the pps for it. I can understand the desire to avoid letting them go nova, and agree with it. Just don't hurt their versatility in the process. Give them more powers known and the ability to pull any one of them up in the right situation.
Wilders need to be the representatives of chaos. If I'm playing a Wilder I don't want to know wtf is going to happen when I use my powers. Something like Unleashing in Dark Ages Fae (by White Wolf).
Soulknives - no comment, I can't stand them for flavor reasons.
Psychic Warriors - I'd rather see these guys as kind of like Sword Sages, a mix of Monk and Paladin who focus on mental and physical discipline. Would be great for Irori followers.
Oddly enough, I don't think we need psionics at all, really, but I would like to have them anyway.
Psionics is really just another flavor of magic.
If a person can cast a telepathy spell, and another person can use psionic telepathy, then what's the mechanical difference?
An important question is do we need a whole new mechanic to handle psionics (like a pool of points used to pay for power usage)?
My answer is no. Balancing that new mechanic against the old is part of what killed 3.x psionics. They didn't want psions blasting a hundred low-level abilities per day so they kept them weak, then built an "overcharge" mechanic that allows psions to go nova so effectively that it puts wizards to shame.
So if we do add psionics, the mechanic should remain the same, or extremely similar, to the existing mechanic for spell use. Prepared or spontaneous doesn't matter much, but to me psionics feels like it should be spontaneous, to the sorcerer would be the role model around which psionics would be created.
But then the question is, do we need more of the same old mechanics, flavored with a new name, when really all it does is reproduce a flavored sorcerer?
My answer is yes. I mean, spaghetti is just noodles and sauce, so why do we need fettucini alfredo? I like options at Olive Garden, and I say "Yes" to options in Pathfinder.
I also wouldn't mind, if it's not too terribly late, if a few spells disappeared entirely from the core rules. Telepathy and domination spells. Let those become the domain of the psion, much like wizards can't heal and clerics don't summon demons (much).
This would justify the new flavor, since psionics would bring capabilities to the game world that don't exist elsewhere, without having to invent or balance or learn new mechanics.
And as for psionic combat, all I can say is YUCK! You want to ruin an Illithid's day? Try to DM a combat using the Illithid version from the psionics handbook and watch him blast a party of adventurers, only to drain them of a couple points of strength in the surprise round, then die in round 1. Ooooh, scary...
But you can't make blasting really powerful, or your PC psions will blow everything away and the rest of the characters will become just his entourage.
I'm not sure you can have it both ways, unless you can keep it simple and let psionically optimized monsters scale it way off the PC charts.
James Jacob's statement on the ability to manifest lots of 9th level powers matches my line of thoughts about the primary problem I have with psionics currently. Unfortunately the arguments attempting to refute this position, or at least what I think is a problem, have not affected me.
For starters, I do know there is a cap on how many power points a manifester can spend on a single power. I am not confused on that.
But 9th level psionic power are generally not as good as 8th level spells. Or 7th level spells, even (because spells scale "for free" and powers generally don't). So a 20th level psion can manifest 17+ 20 pp 9th level powers per day, and a 20th sorcerer can cast 18+ 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells per day...as well as a bunch of other spells on top of that.
But I doubt that talking about it will convince you. I'd be delighted to run a play-by-post playtest if you're really interested in seeing for yourself.
I have a definite problem with this statement.
Of the sixteen 9th level powers I see on the psionic SRD site, only two actually have augment effects. The rest of the powers scale just as much as their nearest magical counterparts. So saying that 9th level psionic power are generally not as good 7th level spells because of powers lack of scaling seems quite silly and inaccurate.
The powers that required more power points to scale were tornado blast and microcosm.
Tornado blast is, I believe, accurate to what you describe. The damage dealt by the power doesn't scale like similar magical spells.
However, microcosm is a slightly different situation. While it needs more power points to scale up, my first thought is to compare it to power word kill], which doesn't scale at all (aside from caster level to beat spell resistance). I think [i]microcosm, indisputably, scales better than power word kill because it actually scales even if it takes more power to make it scale.
So I would say only one of the eighteen 9th level powers from the Expanded Psionics Handbook really qualifies for being worse because of a lack of automatic scaling. And it is a power that can only taken by the Kineticist (before epic rules come into play), a single type of psion.
I doubt that talking about it will convince you of anything, but if you are trying to convince me of what you say, you would have to either correct some misconception I had or explain your thought in more detail because, right now, to me, it doesn't make any sense.
I pretty much agree with Maczkow.
The problem is really what WotC ended up with in 3.5,
if you put Psionics into your setting/adventures AT ALL, then you're either forcing DMs to learn a new sub-system to use it, or kludging it by saying "you can just run these as Sorcerous-type "Abilities", which if that was viable in the first place, why introduce a new sub-system for the Class? (Psions should not be an exclusive backdoor for Spellpoints, but a viable motif on par with other Classes)
The other side of the coin is, in order to avoid such a situation, Psionics is purposefully de-emphasized in setting material in order not to encroach on those who aren't using the Psionic sub-system. Or realistically, a little of both approaches.
There CAN be an Optional Spellpoint/Psipoint system to satisfy it's fans, but Psionics should also be built to use existing spells (Dominate Person, Levitation, Clairvoyance) that make sense and fit in with the normal standards of Spellcasting (Vancian Slots, Spells Provoking, etc) while still enabling a "flavor" appropriate to a Psionic culture. Details like Spell-lists or supplementary powers (ala School Powers or Channel Energy) DON'T present a big problem for DM's not familiar with Psionics to be able to pick up an adventure with a Psionic NPC no problem.
Having an exclusive ruleset outside of the Vancian paradigm is fine on it's own, and would keep happy those who like XPH (though I suspect it's really just satisfying those who like points), but it creates major problems in the integration-with-setting department. Separating out the variant rule-set means the Motif/Class can exist in Settings without Kludges, and a variant Spellpoint/Psi-Point rule can satisfy those who are really interested in that in the first place (without making Psionics preferable solely because it uses Points while Magic doesn't).
I think that its a dangerous path to walk to try and market a psionics product to people that don't like psionics while razing some of the things that people that are currently big fans of psionics is a dangerous proposition. In fact, I have to say that it kind of reminds me of trashing the Forgotten Realms in order to make the setting a better seller to non-Realms fans.
Is there a need for a Pathfinder version of Psionics if fans of psionics like the XPH?
Well, let me answer this with an answer I've heard before. The XPH will be out of print eventually and it is a pain to refer people to the psionics SRD or to look around for out of date products.
Also, there will need to be some XPH updates anyway, realigning HD and BaB progression, for example, and if the current mindset of "spellcasters should always have magic things to do" is popular, the classes may need at least a few minor "at will" abilities to line up with the arcane and divine casters in Pathfinder RPG itself.
I could also be wrong about this, but I have a feeling that Erik is right . . . there are a lot of fans of fantasy that don't have a problem with empaths, telepaths, etc. I also think that, in really deep analysis, these same people prefer those elements to be less the focus of a class and more of a flavorful, thematic element of the campaign.
In other words, a seer that can't always call on their abilities, but gets flashes in dire situations, or a person that in duress can shove someone away from them with a mental push.
For these people, I really don't think that a class that can throw around psychokenetic bolts as often as a wizard shoots magic missile is going to make them happy.
So, can these people be brought into the fold? Maybe.
What if there was a whole section in the book that involved less fully developed "psychic" powers, defined by feat trees and traits, that would augment the character concept of a character but not define it. This "second system" would sit right along side of the XPH psionic abilities, but no one that is trained in using power points or fully tapping into their potential would be able to take these traits or feats.
Its a thought, but honestly, I'm not really sure that the best route is to try and come up with a psionics for psionic's hater book that becomes the standard for Pathfinder treatments of the topic.
|
|
I really like the 3.5 psionic rules. I also like vancian casting. I also liked incarnum, binding and martial adepts, but those are a bit more difficult to use in OGL products than psionics. One of the main reasons I prefer 3.5 to 4E are that different power sources have different subsytems. It's also worth noting that of all the 'optional' rules in 3.5, psionics was the one most supported in sourcebooks. Totally changing the way psionics work would not be very backward compatible and would create unnecessary difficulties when using the Pathfinder with settings like Eberron.
Therefore I would prefer Pathfinder Psionics to remain rather close to the XPH. The rules might not have been perfect, but they were rather balanced. Especially the Psychic Warrior was often named as the most balanced base class.
While I would probably buy a Pathfinder psionics book, even when it ditches the XPH rules, I would probably also buy a book that updates the 3.5 psionics to the PRPG released by a third party. And it's nearly guaranteed that such a book would be written if Paizo would choose to create its own psionic rules. I would prefer avoid such reduncies. There are already enough people disliking psionics, staying with 3.5 or going 4th, there should be no need to fracture the psionic fanbase even further.
Considering changes, the soulknive is in dire need of an upgrade. He's probably even worse than the 3.5 monk. The wilder would also need a little help but in his case some has already been provided as 'alternative' class feature in The Mind's Eye.
The psychic warrior would probably need some extra features to bring him on par with classes like the pathfinder fighter but not to much, he was pretty fine in 3.5. Same goes for the psion, I always liked the idea of a bunch of unique powers per discipline, so I would prefer this limitation to stay as it's interesting and flavourful.
Redundant skills like use psionic device or the item creation feats should go. I would like autohypnosis to stay, it might even have its place in the core rules as a replacement for concentration since a lot of 3.5 books like Tome of Battle make use of concentration as a skill. It might even be renamed concentration.
Considering psionics in fantasy, I might be a minority here but I had always the impression that it was vancian casting, not psionics that were underrepresented in the fantasy genre. Most magic users in literature use powers of the mind instead of some predefined spells they prepared earlier. That's not to say I want vancian casting to go, I just think that psionics have a place in fantasy, too. They might not be called psionics in many cases, though.
I see psionics as a variation on a theme from arcane and divine. I think you could set them up as a core class that is fundamentally different then the other casters in that they have powers, but do not take up spell slots. They need to be unique in the game, and not just another type of caster.
What I have in mind is something along the lines of older shadowrun Physical Adept, force users (jedi) from star wars, and a warlock from 3.5. Take any of these concepts and you can convert them to a psionic class.
The old shadowrun conversion would be a melee based character that is similar to a Monk but with more psionics then combat benefit. He could gain psionic physical powers along the same lines as the rage powers of a barbarian... haste, jump, levitate, blindsight, hardened skin, etc.
The Jedi could have some powers based upon the paladin or fighter feat progression and gain telekinesis, suggestion, arrow deflection, etc.
The psionic warlock would choose powers at the same rate and level as the warlock. They would have fewer options then a mage or sorcerer, but they would be an at will power and the effects could be many taken from older psionic powers.
Anyway, there are my three suggestions. Keep the flavor of psionics while not making them "just another caster"
So correct me if I'm wrong...You are claiming that a psion 20 going nova can out-damage a sorcerer 20 because the psion can fire off more 9th-level powers. However, compare what each character can do on a round-by-round basis:
...
I don't believe he said that the psion would be able to out-damage the sorcerer, just unleash more power (quickly) than the sorcerer.
And I believe that you underestimate the difference between the 9th level powers and lower level spells as well seemingly ignoring Quicken Power when you bring in Quicken Spell (which would take out more actions to regain psionic focus, but allow the psion to manifest quickened 7th level or 8th level powers while then sorcerer can quicken 5th level spells [at least from a quick glace]).
So, without crunching numbers, that you are really underestimating the psion.
|
|
So correct me if I'm wrong...You are claiming that a psion 20 going nova can out-damage a sorcerer 20 because the psion can fire off more 9th-level powers. However, compare what each character can do on a round-by-round basis:
...I don't believe he said that the psion would be able to out-damage the sorcerer, just unleash more power (quickly) than the sorcerer.
And I believe that you underestimate the difference between the 9th level powers and lower level spells as well seemingly ignoring Quicken Power when you bring in Quicken Spell.
Based on what Epic Meepo said, the Sorcerer still has the advantage in the short-term, as well. I recall hearing that the average fight is less than ten rounds. Let look at five: the psion can deal 100 dice of damage in that time, while the sorcerer can deal 120. It evens out a little at 10 rounds: the psion deals 200 while the sorcerer deals 224.
Creative Director
|
In any event, part of the problem lies, I believe, that the way the VERY spell-similar powers wielded by psions follow such a different system that confusion and user-error is commonplace. By switching psionics over to follow the same type of system used by current concepts in place in the core rules, one could hopefully preserve the flavor of the in game psionics stuff but make the rules easier to understand.
But if abandoning the PSP system causes a mob of torch wielding psions to march on Paizo, that ain't no good either!
Anyway... it's a good thing we've got a long time to figure this all out (since we don't even have a psionics book on the schedule yet). I'm relatively certain that if and when we DO do a psionics book (or an epic book) we'll have an open playtest for it, though... so whatever we DO decide to go with shouldn't be a nasty surprise...
|
|
Based on what Epic Meepo said, the Sorcerer still has the advantage in the short-term, as well. I recall hearing that the average fight is less than ten rounds. Let look at five: the psion can deal 100 dice of damage in that time, while the sorcerer can deal 120. It evens out a little at 10 rounds: the psion deals 200 while the sorcerer deals 224.
To help illustrate this, I made a chart of the amount of damage a sorcerer and a psion can do in a given number of rounds of combat. See here. Rounds are on the X axis, cumulative dice of damage on the Y axis. I only showed through round 20, because the psion essentially craps out at that point while the sorcerer continues to gain.
|
|
"And yet a lot of them do not allow the current (or any previous, let's be honest) version of the psionics rules in their campaign".
I would fall into this group. Never liked them. Please don't bring them into the Pathfinder universe. There are dozens of other projects Paizo should be expanding upon and developing (and that you are doing extremely well with already).
Vancian magic works fine, there is no need for a "spell points" system that falls completely outside the "normal" magic system.
Then again, maybe it's because I never rolled the magic "00" back in the 1E days...
Based on what Epic Meepo said, the Sorcerer still has the advantage in the short-term, as well. I recall hearing that the average fight is less than ten rounds. Let look at five: the psion can deal 100 dice of damage in that time, while the sorcerer can deal 120. It evens out a little at 10 rounds: the psion deals 200 while the sorcerer deals 224.
This is what I quickly put together so it may be suboptimal (for the psion and/or sorcerer)
I took out tornado blast because it has a 1 round manifesting time, which seemed a bit off when trying to launch as much damage as quickly, when quickening things.
It isn't a neat match as the nearest damage dealing spell that I quickly noticed was energy wave and that has a 120-ft cone rather than the long ranged 40-ft radius of the meteor swarm (and the other advantages meteor swarm has that have not been listed). For the same reason I chose shout because it was the right level, and it was damage dealing. I considering switching to quickened fireballs but stayed with shout under the premise I was trying to deal damage as fast as possible.
---
Psion
Quickened energy wave: 14d6+14
Energy wave: 20d6+20
Requires: Two feats: psionic meditation (as well as its prerequisites) and quicken power
Per Round Cost: 40 power points; standard action, move action, swift action.
Damage (not taking into account DC increases, area, range): 34d6+34
---
Sorcerer
Quickened shout: 15d6
Meteor swarm: 24d6
Requires: One feats: quicken spell
Per Round Cost: Two 9th level spell slots; standard action, swift action.
Damage (not taking into account deafening, area, range, or being pelted with rocks): 39d6
---
Damage: (per target, assumed no resistances, failed saves)
Sorcerer average: 136.5 per round
Psion average: 153 per round
Unless I messed something up, the psion is winning (not including the other factors that would definitely impact this) the damage contest on the short term and this is the best it will be for the sorcerer. After the first few rounds he will drop further behind.
Edit: Darn it! Mistakenly chose shout instead of a 5th level spell. Cone of cold is 5th level and deals the same amount of damage (now cold instead of sonic) in a larger area. But using shout instead of cone of cold deals the same amount of dice at a lower cost so just leave it this way. The sorcerer would be able to maintain this for about seven rounds before running out of 8th and 9th level spells, while the psion would have about three or four rounds, I think, before running out of fuel.
In any event, part of the problem lies, I believe, that the way the VERY spell-similar powers wielded by psions follow such a different system that confusion and user-error is commonplace. By switching psionics over to follow the same type of system used by current concepts in place in the core rules, one could hopefully preserve the flavor of the in game psionics stuff but make the rules easier to understand.
Right, that's why using the normal spells themselves might be a good option.
It seems that giving Psions an ACTUALLY unique niche (i.e. spell list wise, + other powers) is more substantial than reproducing spell effects (like your Telekinesing, Telepathing, Clairvoyant Sorceror's Spells) just for the sake of an exclusive variant mechanic (There are... 5? Core Casting Classes, and they all use the SAME Spells where they overlap). Point-Casting can be optional for both Casters and Psions, either in book where Psionics is detailed or UA-type book (or one and the same)....That would still leave the torch wielding psions who want to feel special wanting to burn your place down, but perhaps you could mount a defense if you can gather enough SCA gear...
To help illustrate this, I made a chart of the amount of damage a sorcerer and a psion can do in a given number of rounds of combat. See here. Rounds are on the X axis, cumulative dice of damage on the Y axis. I only showed through round 20, because the psion essentially craps out at that point while the sorcerer continues to gain.
Based on what Epic Meepo said, the Sorcerer still has the advantage in the short-term, as well. I recall hearing that the average fight is less than ten rounds. Let look at five: the psion can deal 100 dice of damage in that time, while the sorcerer can deal 120. It evens out a little at 10 rounds: the psion deals 200 while the sorcerer deals 224.
Also that doesn't take into account the possibility that tornado blast might actually be a bad damage dealing 9th level power compared to meteor swarm or other psion powers.
What is Psionics to me?
Simply put, psionics are magic in the exact same sense that arcane and divine spells are. Same stuff, different source/style. No obscure words, no strange gestures, but the same result. Theme-wise, psionics are about re-writing reality by sheer will. The power lies within.
How do you get me to buy a book?
Address some of the weaknesses of the magic type. Core rules are pathetic for healing for instance. Adding balanced mechanics for psionic healing would be good. Make the core classes PFRPG style. The Psywar and Soulknife could survive a lot of work. That's about it would take. So: 1} more (useful) powers, 2} updated classes.
What's a deal-breaker?
Dramatic change. I don't want yet another system. I've already GOT a tonne of other sourcebooks for that. Keep the points system, keep the idea of focus. Just apply seven years of RPG experience to the XPH, and perhaps throw in some new material akin to what Complete Psionic promised to be.
You can stop reading now.
I'd personally like to see a PFRPG style XPH, only expanded to say six classes. Perhaps 20% more powers, mostly filling in the gaps (we can discuss them elsewhere). Absolutely include the Dreamscarred Press guys in your deliberations. Their products are a great step in the right direction.
I also always really liked the Magic of Incarnum book. I'd love to see the end result (ie. STUFF shaped out of power) incorporated into psionics.
I'm relatively certain that if and when we DO do a psionics book (or an epic book) we'll have an open playtest for it, though... so whatever we DO decide to go with shouldn't be a nasty surprise...
Somebody's getting a big old man hug* the next time I see him . . . ;)
*the doctor confirmed today that I lack the equipment to deliver a woman hug.
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
I do like psionics, and will likely buy any psionics book Paizo prints. That being said, I've dabbled with the option in all editions of the game, and think that James sums up the issues with them pretty well - they're cool conceptually, but for one reason or another, have had issues in their execution.
I do think that the 3.5 XPH version is the best so far, but it has lots of issues. Overall, probably the best way to go would be a complete re-write, IMO.
I'm not sure what specificaly would be the best way to go, but have a few random thoughts (which could be completely horrible after review and holes you could drive a truck through are pointed out).
First, maybe a system where you learned powers as you advanced in level, and each power could be used a certain number of times per day or hour. As you gained levels, lower level powers could be used more and more often, and your highest level ones would always be at the minimum. Something along the lines of how Shadow magic works in Tome of Magic, but with more granularity.
Dreamscarred and or Mark Jindra should be brought in to consult if not just do the rewrite.
Underline, highlight and "!!!!!11" this one. Without Mark Jindra there would have been no Mind's Eye at (then free) WotC site. If anyone deserves to get his name on a book, it is Mark and if you need a resume, just click this link The Mind's Eye
The #1 problem with psionics is that is has always been an add-on to an existing system.
In AD&D, it was an extra chapter stuck in the back of the book at the last minute.
The 2nd Edition Psionics Handbook was an attempt to emulate the Psionicist class from Dragon Magazine, but came out too powerful because it did not function within the rules-set of 2nd edition.
3rd Edition was a great start and the 3.5 XPH refined the rules, but psionics still suffered from a lack of support.
Remember, psionics actually has more 3rd party support that WotC support, so almost all of it is OGL; XPH, D20 Modern, Malhavoc, Fantasy Flight, Scarred Lands, Mongoose and Dreamscared Press.
One reason why many DMs don't want to use psionics is that it is very DIY. You have to modify every adventure to bring it into the game. There needs to be more interaction and simple examples of psionics to include it in your game.
In my personal setting, I use a four power set-up. Arcane opposes Nature and Divine opposes Psionics. This allows better interaction between wizards and psions. Also, you need a history of psionics, psionic items, new and old powers and of course psionic monsters. Eberron has done a great job in doing this, especially in the Novels.
I think that its a dangerous path to walk to try and market a psionics product to people that don't like psionics while razing some of the things that people that are currently big fans of psionics is a dangerous proposition. In fact, I have to say that it kind of reminds me of trashing the Forgotten Realms in order to make the setting a better seller to non-Realms fans.
That's definitely what I'm afraid of.
The four main complaints I hear about psionics:
#1) "The flavour is too much like sci-fi and not enough like fantasy."
#2) "The system is too different from (Vancian) magic."
#3) "The powers are too similar to wizard spells."
#4) "Psionics is overpowered."
#1 is hard to "fix"; either you like the flavour or you don't.
#2 is tricky, because if you make it too similar to something that already exists, then it could end up being kind of redundant. (E.g. "Psions are just like wizards, except they use a slightly different spell list.")
#3 is sort of the flip side of #2 (not exactly, though). If you make psionic abilities too dissimilar to magic abilities, then it can be a turn-off for the people who don't want to learn a whole new system.
And in my experience, #4 is about 10% legitimate complaints about specific powers and 90% breathless talk about how psions can "go nova" (conveniently forgetting that a sorcerer can do the same thing).
The only stuff I think needs fixing is the "10%" part of #4.
Second, Quandry, I'm not sure why giving psionics an unique niche would justify abandoning the point-based system. To create an unique niche, we'd need to eliminate powers that duplicate other classes' spell, and this would sever the only tie psions have ever had to Vancian casters.
I see casting spells normally restricted to different Magic Types (Arcane/Divine/Nature) as a unique niche, and don't see it as "eliminating powers" but rather "eliminating DUPLICATION".
If you read my other posts in this thread, that might help understand what I'm advocating.The problem isn't necessarily the class by itself:
Of course, those who like it will buy it and play with it and those who don't, won't.
But how is Paizo supposed to treat this class? Ignore them as much as possible in published material & settings, because most DMs who aren't into Psionics won't know how to even run them? Put them in, but treat them as Monsters with Supernatural abilities (unless you have and use the Psionics rules)? Compare this to introducing an NPC Cleric of some new sub-Diety: There might be some new Domain Powers or Spells, but by and large it fits the existing rule-system very smoothly, Domination is Domination, Clairvoyance is Clairvoyance: You don't need to become well-versed in the sub-Diety's variant rules to use this NPC.
Since the VAST MAJORITY of Psionic Abilities essentially mimic, or "could be" a spell, isn't it confusing & redundant to have two different version of, say, Clairvoyance? (different Casters don't have different versions of Spells they share, though they may gain them at different Spell Levels) So to make it most COMPATIBLE with the entire player base, why not say Clairvoyance *IS* Clairvoyance, and build up a substantial version of the Class that works with Vancian? THEN, detail how to use a Point based system if you so choose, which could apply to Sorcerors and other Casters just as much. The only loss I can see is the massive duplication in Spells-Powers.
BTW: I like psionics AND point-based "casting".
One of the most frequently requested topics for Pathfinder RPG rules exploration once we've put the Core Rulebook to bed is Psionics.
It seems to me like a vocal and forthright minority of d20 players REALLY like psionics as written, and would like to see us publish something for which backwards compatibility is the primary design goal.
I would guess from my experience over the last two decades of playing the game that about half of the total audience does not like psionics. A lot of them REALLY don't like psionics for one reason or another.
The funny thing is that I think an overwhelming majority of d20 gamers are OK with the idea of telepaths, empaths, psychics, and the "concept" of psionics.
And yet a lot of them do not allow the current (or any previous, let's be honest) version of the psionics rules in their campaign.
I am convinced there is an audience for a Pathfinder RPG Psionics book.
I am uncertain how to proceed from that basic assumption.
So I'm asking you:
What does Psionics mean to you?
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Thanks again for the give-and-take.
--Erik
The only time I ever felt that psionics fit a fantasy game was with Dark Sun. Perhaps it is the name put onto psionics, but it does not strike me as something that fits into a normal European fantasy-based campaign world. There is also, of course, a heavy negative stigmatism attached to psionics; if nothing else, I think a name change to move it away from something modern-sounding/scientific would go a long way to making it more acceptable in the game (might I suggest "mentalism"?).
I would not like to see it permeate a campaign world, though I would not mind an order, country or small area that could be ignored or altered that possesses metalism-type powers (an order of psionic monk assassins, similar to the Scarlett Brotherhood sounds too cool to pass up, really).
Co-owner - Battlegrounds to Board Games
|
I'm dead set against psionics in fantasy games. While much of this is based on the terrible imbalances of psionics in earlier editions of D&D/AD&D, the main bone of contention I have is that it doesn't suit my vision of fantasy adventure.
Then simply don't include them in your game PFRPG is a great game even without the psionics.
Explain away any of your normally-magical effects and spells as psionics if you really want them that badly. The *ONLY* reason for players to demand a separate set of psionics rules is to get around the existing rules sets, tactics, defenses, and knowledge of "how the world should work", and thereby exploit an advantage, no matter how slim, over the rest of the world and the NPC's/monsters that reside in it.
I could not disagree with you more on this one! Just playing a wizard/sorcerer and saying "oh my spells are actually psionics" is not the same at all. I for one LOVE that psionics has a different and unique flavor and mechanic. Not everyone is just trying to get around existing rules, etc. Some unscrupulous people may have given all psionics a bad name but that is what playtesting is for. Give the system to the powergamers for a while and let them tell you how to break it, and then , Hey! fix the broken stuff!
I really like the way that the current rules from XPH work. They are the best yet IMO, and I have been a fan since 1st edition. I personally like the fact that magic has little effect on psionics, which is something that most people seem to dislike. But even though a mage might not be easily able to stop a psionic power, the psion has an equally difficult time stopping arcana/divine magic which is infinitely more common to run afoul of. It should definately be different from magic.
I really like the versatility of the power points, this may let psionis use more high level powers than a sorcer/wizard couldm however. But as it has been said above in the thread, power points are consumed just scaling powers up to the point a wizrd/ sorcer would get for free. (see fireball example above), in addition Psions have a VERY small arsenal of powers to draw from, even smaller than the sorcerer I might add. I would be open to a somewhat new approach but I think power points should be playtested and fixed, if need be, rather than replaced.
Psionics should be playtested a la Betatest rules. This way perhaps more people would play them and get aquainted with them and help give informed feedback on what works well and what needs to be fixed. I personally feel that if you have never played a psionic character, then you may not really understand psionics as well as you might think.
What would be a dealbreaker?? Just throw another tacked on poorly thought out system my way and you'll not see my hard earned dollars spent on it. Also, please don't just say Take a wizard and call him a "PSION".
I want full immersion of how psionics fit into Golarion and other planets in the system. I want to know where the psionic races live, where they came from and you they interact with everything else in the world. I want psionics to work well beside arcane/divine magic but be DIFFERENT from them. I want to not be the only gamemaster who will allow psionics into the game!
|
|
In any event, part of the problem lies, I believe, that the way the VERY spell-similar powers wielded by psions follow such a different system that confusion and user-error is commonplace. By switching psionics over to follow the same type of system used by current concepts in place in the core rules, one could hopefully preserve the flavor of the in game psionics stuff but make the rules easier to understand.
But if abandoning the PSP system causes a mob of torch wielding psions to march on Paizo, that ain't no good either!
Anyway... it's a good thing we've got a long time to figure this all out (since we don't even have a psionics book on the schedule yet). I'm relatively certain that if and when we DO do a psionics book (or an epic book) we'll have an open playtest for it, though... so whatever we DO decide to go with shouldn't be a nasty surprise...
I'm not convinced it is that cnfusing. I'm expert on neither system but I'm happy to use both, and it isn't very confusing, though you do need to make sure you read the spell descriptions (I'm playing PbP mainly, so this isn't an issue but could be at the table).
I also think that the hostility to the point-based system is due to (faulty - sorry James) thought experiments and not really playing the rules. I contend that psions are marginally weaker than wizards, not stronger, as a result of the point-based system.
For those who don't like psionics because it feels too "science fiction", I have to smile wryly at this. There is an assumption that there is a clear demarkation between science fiction and fantasy which is "obvious". This is definately not true - read anything that Planet Stories has issued lately and you will see plenty of cross-over. There is a clear demarkation between hard SF (like Azimov, Peter F Hamilton and so on) and Lord of the Rings. But there is plenty of stuff in the middle.
Leigh Brackett's Skaith series, for example, is clearly fantasy with SF trappings as is (gasp) Star Wars. The Force is clearly magical in nature - no one even bothers to define how it works, it is just a "Jedi power". ESP has had absolutely no basis in scientific fact so far and as long as that is the case psionic powers will be indistinguishable from (imaginary) magic powers. "Psionics" is magic that you can use in science fiction stories. But it is still magical wish-fulfillment, not scientific at all.
Not to say that people are not entitled to their tastes, of course, but the issue is less clear cut than some people might think.
This is kind of a tangential rant. It only relates to psionics in the arguments that some folks have put forth earlier in this thread and in casual game-shop conversations I have had.
Nothing is more irritating to me than to hear people say psionics is the perfect way to replicate Asian mysticism and mythic martial arts for Oriental style games. As a Chinese-American, an Asian History major, and a student of martial arts since childhood, I think I can safely say that the idea of psionics has no relation at all to the concepts behind Chi and the folklore of Chinese and Japanese myths and legends. Psionics is all about the mind, about empowering the self, and has nothing to do with spirit and "breath" that underlies the legends of most Asian heroic legends and their style of "fantasy"; as the underlying concept of that genre of stories is letting the "self" go, and leaving it behind for spiritual and faith-based enlightenment. If people want psionics bad enough, I am sure Paizo will probably print something for Pathfinder to include it. But please don't try and wrap it up in the trappings of the cultural style of fantasy I intimately know, cherish, and identify with, because that's just insulting. I've already been looking forward to seeing Golarion include other Earth-based cultures, particularly the Asian ones, but I'll go crazy if the wonkiness that is psionics gets put into it.
*gets off the soapbox*
Stuff
I just wanted to comment that this is a very well written and informative post. I also agree completely.
|
|
Going to Steffan's comments, that's why I really like the separate-but-equal approach of psionics.
1. To treat psionics as just another form of magic simply does away with the need of psionics. The challenge of psionics is what to do when it's encountered. Magic dismissal and magic counter-effects don't work. What then?
2. We can't do away with the divine, evocation, conjuration, and transmutation spells that are psionically-cast. So either there's a clear redundance, or the separate-but-equal approach says that they are similar in task or effect, but they are not the same.
And going back to point-based v. Vancian. The point-based approach just makes sense to me. If someone is tapping into their internal powers, then there should be a limit. The limit shouldn't be artificial, i.e., vancian, but should be based on finite reserves, i.e., point-based. (That said, Sorcerers could arguably be point-based, too.)
What does psionics mean to me? It means that instead of using a formula (albeit one you studied or know inherently) or the intervention of another being (a god or demon, etc.) you are doing your work with your own mind at the speed of thought.
Really, I think 3.5 psionics are fairly well-balanced. I hated psionics in previous editions and would never have read the XPH if a stubborn friend hadn't brought it up repeatedly. Now I really like some of it, though the classes are in serious need of work. First of all, they really need to be defined. Attempts at such definitions shall begin - now:
The Soulknife and the Psychic Warrior. These should probably be one class in all fairness. It should be a warrior with a powerful mind who practices biofeedback and other techniques for making himself stronger or who practices manifesting the ultimate weapon - one that is truly an extension of himself. Make these separate disciplines or just a limited and mixed power list and you're in business.
The Wilder - Do we really need a wilder? It's just a sorcerer to the psion's wizard, and one that really doesn't even do that niche well as a psion is still based on internal power. I vote we just update it to PFRPG rules and move on (I'd say scrap it but there's the looming specter of backwards compatability).
The Psion - At last, the quintessential psionic character, one who has delved the secrets of his own mind and how it interacts with the world, one who has truly discovered and dwells in the one world where both are equally real. The psion should absolutely not simply be a wizard or sorcerer with a bizarre spell list that runs on points. The points system should stay but the powers should be scrapped. Seriously, hear me out: We should replace these powers with a handful of base abilities and templates to shape them, such as creating a ball of fire. Some of these templates should be more than the run-of-the-mill ball, burst, ray, and cone though. For instance, why should a telepath need line of sight dominate a creature? He simply has to locate its mind in the aether. A telekineticist should simply cause an enemy to spontaneously combust, not produce a scorching ray. Make him like the archmage, a master at manifesting his will exactly the way he wanted it, down to the micron.
Picture this if you will: A 10th-level telekineticist uses 5 pp to do 5d6 fire damage using his first level fire power. He then can use no pp to make a burst such as a fireball filling an area (if he learned the burst template), or he can selectively use 1 pp per target to fry them without ever having to risk injuring his comrades. He elects to cook each one of the individually, so instead of the usual reflex saves, they make will saves to keep their body from rebelling. If he had five targets he's used 10 pp (his normal max) to do less damage than he could have, but to do it in a way that is literally impossible with another class. This cuts down on the nova effect and makes them unique at the same time (and replaces some of the cooler functions of the warlock to boot). Plus he can still crisp that group of goblins or kobolds just as readily as the party wizard if he really had to.
Think about it: you could have a wizard open a gateway to move a group of people to another area, or you could have a nomad simply yank them from the physical here and now and deposit them where they belong. A telepath could make everyone in a throne room ignore him but the king, who freaks out as the telepath approaches, using another power to mask himself as the Grim Reaper. A seer could literally move his mind to a new location to scout it out as though he were physically there, using the information that would be passed to his senses from the true world to the mundane, far more than most mere scrying spells. The shaper and egoist should probably be rolled into the psychic warrior/soulknife though, unless someone else can think of some sweet unique things to do with them.
What do you guys think? It seems like a pretty neat, unique and elegant solution to the problems some people have with psionics, while preserving its flavor and making it stand out even more as something different. It has the added benefit of retaining the power point system on which the 3.5 material is dependent.
Feedback would be greatly appreciated as I will probably begin working on designing this shortly as it seems ridiculously cool in my head.
|
|
I love psionics.
I am playing a Egoist in a Shackled City game and am running a Dark Sun game (which is filled with psionics).
Backward compatability is a must, but I think the system is great as it stands (better, IMHO, then the regular magic system. The augment idea makes powers scale with level but at a higher cost (unlike magic where fireballs are all 3rd level slots no matter if they do 5d6 or 10d6).
So overall I would like to see the system stay much the same but with the Pathfinder/Paizo updates and tweaks.
Thaks again for including us all in the games development.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
I mentioned this on the original thread Erik started... but I'm curious to find out if fans of the XPH think it NEEDS an update, and if so, what that means to them.
For those of you who prefer the current XPH point-based system... does it feel like it needs an update or a fix to you? I'm not a fan of that system, and to me the "fix" would be to rebuild it in another way entirely. I don't want to do that if that means enraging all the current psionics fan, but as Erik hinted... if rebuilding psionics so that they work better with the core and don't use their own easily-abused (in my opinion) unique point-based system brings in MORE customers to the psionics fold... would it be worth doing anyway?
In the end, the current XPH will remain compatible with the Pathfinder RPG, anyway. What is it that fans of the current XPH think needs "updating" if anything?
Easily abused?
Psionics?
Why... that's unpossible! Who could do such a thing? :)
The only time I ever felt that psionics fit a fantasy game was with Dark Sun. Perhaps it is the name put onto psionics, but it does not strike me as something that fits into a normal European fantasy-based campaign world. There is also, of course, a heavy negative stigmatism attached to psionics; if nothing else, I think a name change to move it away from something modern-sounding/scientific would go a long way to making it more acceptable in the game (might I suggest "mentalism"?).I would not like to see it permeate a campaign world, though I would not mind an order, country or small area that could be ignored or altered that possesses metalism-type powers (an order of psionic monk assassins, similar to the Scarlett Brotherhood sounds too cool to pass up, really).
I don't see Europe anywhere on my framed map of Golarion. I'm cool with Paizo not sticking with generic-Middle Ages Europe as the default. A multi-cultural Renaissance era appeals to me more. Anything can be reflavored to fit our own personal tastes.
I'd love to have several high-psi areas on the planet - the Isle of Jalmeray, Numeria, the planets, with some psionic stuff sprinkled around everywhere else.
Radically, I'd love it if instead of the Sorcerer we had the Psion in the main RPG book, but that won't happen. What if the Sorcerer and Psion were merged for Pf - limited powers, use power points (cost per spell level as XPH) that can be increased as the "Sorcerer" wills up to their CL just like the XPH Psion?
My longest prolonged exposure to campaign use of psionics had to do with my daughter playing a psychic warrior in a campaign for a few months. The game started at 4th level, and playing a human psychic warrior, she really didn't run circles around anyone in the group, which also had a human rogue, a human diviner, a human cleric/wizard, a half-orc bard/barbarian, and a drow hexblade.
In fact, the only character she regularly made look bad was the drow hexblade, becuase:
1. Drow level adjustment.
2. Hexblades just don't have much umph.
3. My son was running the drow hexblade, which meant the hexblade was hopelessly, suicidally bad to doing anything useful for the rest of the party . . . but that's nothing to do with the rules . . . ;)
This is kind of a tangential rant. It only relates to psionics in the arguments that some folks have put forth earlier in this thread and in casual game-shop conversations I have had.
Nothing is more irritating to me than to hear people say psionics is the perfect way to replicate Asian mysticism and mythic martial arts for Oriental style games. As a Chinese-American, an Asian History major, and a student of martial arts since childhood, I think I can safely say that the idea of psionics has no relation at all to the concepts behind Chi and the folklore of Chinese and Japanese myths and legends. Psionics is all about the mind, about empowering the self, and has nothing to do with spirit and "breath" that underlies the legends of most Asian heroic legends and their style of "fantasy"; as the underlying concept of that genre of stories is letting the "self" go, and leaving it behind for spiritual and faith-based enlightenment. If people want psionics bad enough, I am sure Paizo will probably print something for Pathfinder to include it. But please don't try and wrap it up in the trappings of the cultural style of fantasy I intimately know, cherish, and identify with, because that's just insulting. I've already been looking forward to seeing Golarion include other Earth-based cultures, particularly the Asian ones, but I'll go crazy if the wonkiness that is psionics gets put into it.
*gets off the soapbox*
I think psionics can be any cultural flavor/background (Steven Brust's Dragaeran Imperial Sorcery is nicely represented by XPH Psionics for a non-Earth example).
That said, Paizo seems to have taken the idea of an Indian flavor emphasis on psionics (I'm guessing for the mind over body stuff like some Swamis on Earth walking on hot coals, sleeping on a bed of nails) -- the Impossible Kingdoms of Vudra are what the Campaign Setting reference as a high-psi area that is not underground or on another planet. They don't mention the China/Japan analogues in the psionics write up.
Don't forget that poor half-elves can develop "wild" powers because of their divided perspective on reality and time due to their heritage.