
Dale McCoy Jr Jon Brazer Enterprises |

I am sure I am going to stur up emotions with this comment, so let me just state that this is my opinion.
I've never actually played a psion for one reason: its point based arcane magic, nothing more. When I play an alternate magic system, I want to play something ... well ... different. Psionics should have a clear focus on the mind. They should be better enchanters then arcanists. They should do the equivilent of illusion, but only for a set number of targets (no one else sees the 'illusion'). There should be some telekinesis. They should not conjure up anything, ever. There should be no teleportation, astral constructs, ability to produce any of the 5 energy types (cold, electricity, sonic, etc), nothing ever with a fort or reflex save, and definitely no ability to "divert teleportation" when such a power does not exist in arcane.

Majuba |

Psionics is about the unexpected ability, the hidden threat.
It's also about control. Controlling your mind, controlling others, and controlling your mental resources.
I'm with what Epic Meepo said here:
Erik Mona wrote:How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?1) Take the existing psionics rules.
2) Actually playtest them. In a big, open playtest if necessary*.
3) Plug up all of the infinite-this, nova-that loopholes.
4) Remove unnecessary redundancy. (Psionic item creation feats, I'm looking at you.)*I know there are plenty of folks out there who already have ingenious house rules that make the existing point-based system work properly instead of blowing up the universe with its untied loose ends.
Erik Mona wrote:What is an absolute deal-breaker?Yet another non-backwards compatible psionics system. I'm quite tired of psionics being redesigned every time the game gets updated. If people keep rebuilding the system from scratch every few years instead of actually playtesting and perfecting what they already have, it's never going to work right.
That last part isn't a gamebreaker quite, but would be a disappointment. A Pathfinder Psionics without power points I would probably buy, and fully anticipate I would like, but I wouldn't be "happy" with it.

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Epic Meepo wrote:This.1) Take the existing psionics rules.
2) Actually playtest them. In a big, open playtest if necessary*.
3) Plug up all of the infinite-this, nova-that loopholes.
4) Remove unnecessary redundancy. (Psionic item creation feats, I'm looking at you.)
What he said. 8^)

EATERoftheDEAD |

I have been a fan of the idea of psionics since 2E but I didn't care for those old rules. They were made better before 3E came along and I heartily embraced them.
Now I run 3.5 and my homebrew world still has psionics as an integral part of things. One thing I never understood, however, was why is it a different system. Wizards and Clerics are both magic users who use the same system with different flavors attached to them. Why not have a simple and integrated system for psionics too?
Of course, there are those people out there who say why fix what isn't broken and to a certain extent, I agree. XPH works just fine and I have never had a problem with it. My only major concern is that the PSP vs spell slot system is so different. I am not a fan of the spell slot system but it works and don't see why psionics can't just run off the same rules set.
On an unrelated note, I wonder how 4E is going to handle it when they got to it.

zag01 |

I've always been a big fan of psionics. I've played it since 2ed so I've seen 3~4 different versions.
The main reason I like it is the different mechanics. Its the same reason I like the warlock class, you can do practically the same thing but with a different ruleset that lends to a different in-game flavor.
If you were to make it truly different than you'd have to nerf several spells to give it its own niche. I don't think thats the way to go.
Different ways to achieve the same thing. Thats psionics to me. Make it different AND balanced, it can be done. XPH was very close if not there.
If you were to patch/jazz up the XPH it'd be a definite buy for me. If you went a new direction (new mechanic) I'd pick it up as well. If you made it vancian then thats a deal breaker. I've got plenty of that already.
I agree with a lot of what tallforadwarf says and I agree with Owen Anderson in that if you do just patch/jazz up the XPH you should talk with the Dreamscarred Press guys. Most of their stuff has been pretty solid and balanced.

Joey Virtue |

So I'm asking you:
What does Psionics mean to you?
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Thanks again for the give-and-take.
--Erik
#1 Psionics are another form of power for PCs and monsters to have the same way divine and arcane magic are, Just a really cool difernt flavor of power
#2 I use Psionics in my game currently and I dont have a real problem with them but I would buy what you guys make just to take a look at it
#3 Backwards compatability is very important to my group because they are fighting change and I want to keep it differnt from magic in more then just flavor so if it just became spells like the wizard and cleric have I wouldnt like it ( I like the points system)

vagrant-poet |

I'd be cool with Vancian psions, but the big key to that would be making sure they looked, read and most importantly played, radically different to a wizard, etc.
Make them more physical perhaps, a kind of half mage/half light warrior character.
It's an archetype uncovered in the core classes, and could be interesting.
I'm thinking of the three body classes of Dragon #317, they were great prestige classes, and had a real cohesive feel and uniqueness, yet the cerebrex was still wizard based.
If you could do three paths for the psion path similar to those I'd be pretty happy.
Though obviously cerebrex is the only one that really keeps traditional psion flavour.

Meatpuppet |

I mentioned this on the original thread Erik started... but I'm curious to find out if fans of the XPH think it NEEDS an update, and if so, what that means to them.
For those of you who prefer the current XPH point-based system... does it feel like it needs an update or a fix to you? I'm not a fan of that system, and to me the "fix" would be to rebuild it in another way entirely. I don't want to do that if that means enraging all the current psionics fan, but as Erik hinted... if rebuilding psionics so that they work better with the core and don't use their own easily-abused (in my opinion) unique point-based system brings in MORE customers to the psionics fold... would it be worth doing anyway?
In the end, the current XPH will remain compatible with the Pathfinder RPG, anyway. What is it that fans of the current XPH think needs "updating" if anything?
I've been using the XPH in my Eberron campaign for quite sometime now. IMHO the only thing psionics need is little bit of that Pathfinder love. Just give this "mind magic" system the same attention your giving the 3.5 PH, MM & DMG.
To me backward compatibility is paramount so, no I would certainly not buy a complete rebuild of the Psionic mechanic.

hogarth |

For me to buy it, it's got to be different enough from XPH to be worth my money.
Yes, BUT -- I would be very, very unhappy with a product that made changes simply for the sake of being different from 3.5. I think there's some of that in the core Pathfinder rules already.
Frankly, I'm not optimistic about Paizo's ability to improve the psionics rules; it sounds like most people there think it needs a drastic overhaul (which just isn't the case, in my experience).

WarmasterSpike |

My take on psionics is that for the most part people who dislike it sight two things. 1) They are too powerful and unbalanced and 2) They are handled completely differently than magic in terms of rules and execution. The first complaint I have found is most commonly a hold of from 2nd edition when lets face it Psionics were completely broken and stupidly good. 3rd went a long way to fix this but many just cant get over the stigma from 2nd. The second complaint is however very valid, why did WOTC seperate out Psionics like they did ? Who knows but it has its own skills, cant be detect by detect magic, cant be removed by dispell magic..etc. etc. This make the whole thing cumbersome when someone wants to play a psion or heaven forbid you place one in a game as DM when your party is not aware it is comming.
My solution, or what I would love to see in a new Psionics rule set is this...
First Psionics is just another form of magic, this way all spells interact with powers, all skills like spell craft and use magic device still apply. This way they can be integrated seemlessly in a game without any giggery pokery or rules massaging needed.
Second make absolutely certain that the power levels of Psionic classes fall in line with the published PFRPG classes.
And Third make sure that the whole package is unique...what I mean by this is, right now the Psion is just a mage with different spells, The Psychic Warrior is just a dual classsed Psion. The Soul Knife is more like what I have in mind, but it needs some work to be a full class. My thought is taking what is currently a power, like Telepathy and making it a class. You are a Telepath, with a series of powers within that class that spread out over your levels. Think of Profesor X he can read minds, influence thoughts, alter memories, make himself invisible by blocking himself from your thoughts...all these cool abilities. But he is just a Telepath. You could have Telekenetics, Pyrokenetics, Physical Adepts the list goes on and on, but they all get abilities from their one power. In rules terminology they would be like a series of spell like abilities. No limit on how often you can use them, but they behave just like spells in every other way, and most importantly they scale by level so a first level Telekenetic can lift say 100 lbs...while a twentieth level can lift a ton, crush with a psionic fist, fly, make a shield or weapon..I think you get the idea.
well thats my 2 cents anyways.

Thraxus |

I view psionics as the mental equivalent of a monk's ki abilities. This is one of the reasons I like the soulknife. While the psion, wilder, and psychic warrior classs work using the XPH, I would like to see some new classes with innate abilites that work along the line of the monk, but with a more mental feel.
As for the wilder, psion, and psychic warrior, I think they need tweeking. Honestly, I would like to see them painted in the light of a yogi/yogini, particularly those the practice hatha and raja yoga (psions) and kharma yoga (psychic warriors). This concept would fit equally well in both fantasy and a more pulp/sc-fi setting.

Lord Zeb |

The XPH is, mechanically, one of the strongest WotC books. The points system is elegant, augmentation is simple math based, and Astral Constructs beat Summon Monster for table friendliness, hands down.
That said, it needs some clarifying.
1) The metacap needs to be written in 24 point bright red font. This is the key balancing factor
2) Psionics require more trust than magic. It's a lot easier for a DM to remember that the mage has one 9th level spell left than that the psion has 34 points left
3) Some powers need rewritten, just as some spells do, some powers need rewritten to clarify. Untapped Potential did a good job on this front, closing a lot of loopholes.
4) Psicrystals need to be rewriten. For the life of the XPH, WotC never got around to clarifying rules on the little buggers. Again, see Untapped potential.
5) There needs to be a psychic healer base class.
6) Some feats do need to be combined (item creation) Some must be seperate (metamagic/metapsionic) not only because the rules are different spellslots vs. power points, but because it's an inherent cap on the power of the cerebromancer.
7) The anti-psionic feats need to be highlighted, and there needs to be likewise some anti-magic psionic feats.
8) Prestige classes need to be reviewed and rebalanced. The Metamind should not have as his hallmark 'suck for free, 10 minutes a day' Pyrokineticists should be more like Charlie.
Dreamscarred and or Mark Jindra should be brought in to consult if not just do the rewrite.
As for psionics in lit. Valdemar and Darkover come immediately to mind, as does Pern. All fantasy/psionic comfortable lands. Lisa Smedman's Serpent trillogy really meshed psionics as well.
+1
Elegantly said!My add'l thoughts:
What does Psionics mean to you?
An exciting new way of handling the untapped magic of the mind. Great addition for certain monsters ('Flayers...). A method of showcasing a 'new' magic system (just rename it if you don't want to think of TK and Pyrokinesis etc) like the Steven Brust Dragaeran "Sorcery" that can co-exist with Vancian and Ritual types of magic.
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
Publish it! Tie it in with the other planets!!
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Leaving behind the XPH. It is easily one of the top 5 books for all of 3.x for me.

Lord Zeb |

I mentioned this on the original thread Erik started... but I'm curious to find out if fans of the XPH think it NEEDS an update, and if so, what that means to them.
For those of you who prefer the current XPH point-based system... does it feel like it needs an update or a fix to you? I'm not a fan of that system, and to me the "fix" would be to rebuild it in another way entirely. I don't want to do that if that means enraging all the current psionics fan, but as Erik hinted... if rebuilding psionics so that they work better with the core and don't use their own easily-abused (in my opinion) unique point-based system brings in MORE customers to the psionics fold... would it be worth doing anyway?
In the end, the current XPH will remain compatible with the Pathfinder RPG, anyway. What is it that fans of the current XPH think needs "updating" if anything?
The XPH updates:
1) Close any extreme loopholes
2) Increase HD to match Pathfinder RPG
3) Keep points as-is
4) Dump some creation feats as mentioned above
The #1 reason for an excellently flavored Pathfinder RPG "XPH": Keep XPH Psionics in print
Another thought:
Psionics means to me that non-Western fantasy has a place in the world. It's not the Middle Ages Europe, it's a pulpy sword & sorcery world with many cultures and approaches to magic.

DougErvin |

The XPH updates:1) Close any extreme loopholes
2) Increase HD to match Pathfinder RPG
3) Keep points as-is
4) Dump some creation feats as mentioned aboveThe #1 reason for an excellently flavored Pathfinder RPG "XPH": Keep XPH Psionics in print
Another thought:
Psionics means to me that non-Western fantasy has a place in the world. It's not the Middle Ages Europe, it's a pulpy sword & sorcery world with many cultures and approaches to magic.
Psionics Unbound by Paradigm Concepts already does this and should be used as a starting point if Paizo is interested in publishing a psionic book.
Doug

Revan |

In my opinion, there is very little in the XPH that needs rewriting. It is, on the whole, one of the best balanced 3.5 splatbooks out there. The last thing I would want would be a new Psionics system that put powers on a per-day/Vancian system. Indeed, if you want to talk about mystical systems that are out of place in fantasy, I would put Vancian casting right in my crosshairs. Outside of Vance himself and D&D based works, I can't call to mind any wizards in fantasy literature whose magic wouldn't be better represented by spontaneous sorcerer-type casting or a spell/power point system like the Psion. Nor are psionics overpowered. Compared to a wizard, they are starkly limited in the number of 'spells' they know, and their supposed 'nova' ability fails to materialize for the simple, oft-overlooked fact that a psionic character may NOT, under ANY circumstances spend more Power Points on a single power than his manifester level. A straight level 20 psion can never spend more than 20 points on any one power, and that includes the initial expenditure to manifest it. Take the 9th level power Tornado Blast, for example. It already costs 17 PP; a Kineticist could only spend 3 more points to augment it. ANd if he wasn't a straight Psion, but, say, a Psion/Thrallherd, he could only spend one more PP to augment it, due to the loss of two manifester levels to Thrallherd. (Yes, I'm aware a Kinitecist/Thrallherd is a highly unlikely combination; just throwing out a prestige class I know well to make the point.) And at that level, lower level powers can be manifested at little expenditure of PP--but require significant augmentation to be effective. Where spells automatically scale with level, Mind Thrust keeps on doing 1d10 per PP spent forever and ever.
As for what I would like to see revised: The Soulknife and Wilder strike me as distinctly underpowered, and would require some serious revision if they were to be included. Likewise, most of the prestige classes could do with a makeover. The Metamind is famous for 'sucking for free', the Pyrokineticist has little particularly psionic about it, and robs a psion who takes it of half of his manifester levels, and in general, the Prestige Classes all seem a tad subpar, with the possible exception of the Thrallherd.

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Kruelaid wrote:For me to buy it, it's got to be different enough from XPH to be worth my money.Yes, BUT -- I would be very, very unhappy with a product that made changes simply for the sake of being different from 3.5. I think there's some of that in the core Pathfinder rules already.
Frankly, I'm not optimistic about Paizo's ability to improve the psionics rules; it sounds like most people there think it needs a drastic overhaul (which just isn't the case, in my experience).
It wouldn't make changes just to be different. It'd make changes to IMPROVE the rules. If they don't need to be improved, then we don't need to make changes, really. Personally, I think the rules do need to be improved, because psionics raise hackles and cries of "broken" and "not fair" when many GMs are asked by players if they can use them in their game. We don't hear that with, say, "Oriental Adventures." In that case, a GM won't let a ninja in his game because his game doesn't have ninjas, it seems; he takes umbrage to the FLAVOR of the class, not the fundamental game-changing mechanics of the class.
I'm fine with something that a GM won't allow into his game because of flavor issues. But not allowing something into his game because the thing in question is broken (or at least, regarded as broken) is poor design.
It's a popular rallying point for psionics fans to say, "If it were included in the core books, it would not be a corner case and folks would be more accepting of it!" Well, in the 1st edition Player's Handbook, psionics WERE in the core books, and they were mostly regarded in the same way. Power gamers loved the psionics rules, and GMs who worried (rightfully, at the time) that psionics were overpowered would not allow them into their games.
Psionics has to be more than part of the "core rules" to be accepted in the game. It has to play nice with the wizard and the cleric and the bard and the sorcerer and the other 7 base classes if it wants to be accepted or rejected by GMs on its concept alone.

Ross Byers RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |

I love the flavor of psionics: altering reality through sheer mental power. It doesn't even step on, say, a sorcerer's toes once you realize that a sorcer still 'knows' magic, just on an instinctive level.
The trouble is that making the way psionics work mechanically mesh with the way it works flavorfully is a near-impossible task.
I mean, for an NPC, I can just make them a Sorcerer or an Enchenter and use a little fudging and reflavoring, since they won't be around long enough to have the cracks show. But for a PC, the bits won't add up.

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So I'm asking you:What does Psionics mean to you?
--Erik
Hello Erik,
The only problems I have with psionics, is the same than with Incarnum, Binders ... it's a whole supplementary subsystem, and you have to learn and memorize variant rules.
otherwise, it's fun, except some powers can be too easily abused, and the look of some of the powers is too alien for me. say, why should a ridiculous CRYSTAL sword be any more efficient than a masterwork katana for instance ?
That said, i still prefer psionics over any other sub-rules system.
Regards

Straybow |

To be honest, unless I'm playing something like a "Camber the Heretic" type game, or Dark Sun, I don't like psionics in my fantasy. Sci-Fi? Cool. Most fantasy? Not so much.
For reference, I turned mind flayers and intellect devourers into arcane casters in my homebrew campaign.
I am sure I am going to stur up emotions with this comment, so let me just state that this is my opinion.
I've never actually played a psion for one reason: its point based arcane magic, nothing more. When I play an alternate magic system, I want to play something ... well ... different. Psionics should have a clear focus on the mind. They should be better enchanters then arcanists. They should do the equivilent of illusion, but only for a set number of targets (no one else sees the 'illusion'). There should be some telekinesis. They should not conjure up anything, ever. There should be no teleportation, astral constructs, ability to produce any of the 5 energy types (cold, electricity, sonic, etc), nothing ever with a fort or reflex save, and definitely no ability to "divert teleportation" when such a power does not exist in arcane.
I agree to some extent with both positions. Psionics should be a branch of magic, not something that is neither fish nor fowl. And, it should be mind-effecting almost to exclusion.

Quandary |

I have a question:
Does anybody know any literary sources where "Psionics" exists parallel to Wizards and Sorcerors and it's NOT just treated as a different approach to "The Force"?
(I'm asking because there's definitely tons of literary Psionic precendents, but NOT in parallel with "Magic", as far as I know)
I feel that Star Wars dealt with this well by saying "There are many ways to access the Force", meaning all Supernatural Powers share the same fundamental mechanics, but have slight niches, influenced by their base culture's perspective, etc.
I can say that personally, I like Psionics, and I like point system "casting". But I feel that unless the pointsystem is made available for at least Sorcerors also, it's just a cheap gamist hack, because it motivates those who like point-casting to play Psions (and come on, if it had no benefit, who would prefer it?), not because the flavor of Psionics is especially important, but to get a mechancial 'edge' over Vancian Casters (not to mention non-Detect/Dispelability, etc). Plenty of people *DO* like Points though, so perhaps the best compromise is to introduce Psions using Vancian Casting, but include a "Sidebar" which details Spellpoints for BOTH Psions & Sorcerors (and even Wizards, though they should still be prepared). Psionics can still have a niche thru a unique spell list (from Arcane & Divine), with some spells lower level & some higher, and unique Class Powers like a Psionic Channel Energy (?).
If you look at the current list of spells commonly used by Arcane & Divine Casters, a huge number of them match the effects you could imagine by any sort of Psionicist (Telepathy, Dominate, Levitation (hello Generalist Power!), Healing, Clairovoyance, Astral Travel, ec). So it seems very bizarre to build any sort of Psion Class that DOESN'T use these spell as written. Doing so is a major factor, I think, in the "gulf" between "pro-Psionics" and "anti-Psionics": It becomes a question: "Is there Psionics in this game?" That's why I suggested it shouldn't really feel much more different than Al-Qadim or Kara-Tur magic users, who definitely functioned differently than the core Caster Classes, but wouldn't be disruptive if dropped into the "Core Setting" (or if Core Classes were dropped into their Setting). Having a Psion NPC in some adventure shouldn't mean the DM needs to read up on a new rules system: It should have recognizable spells, variant DCs are easy enough to indicate, and unique Supernatural Abilities are easy to indicate just like Monsters. I really feel that WotC's approach (even with 3.5) really didn't work as an overall system, because it "sort of" put Psionics in the world (but not very much), and then said "well, if you don't play with Psionics, these can be Magic Users"... Which is ridiculous and bypassing the problem.
What would make me buy Pathfinder Psionics material?
OK, back in 2nd Edition Days I tried Psionics out and of course it was ridiculous. I also was into Al-Qadim, and before I gave up Psionics because of it's issues, I really wanted to introduce it to Al-Qadim. My idea was for the insidious, hidden Yak-Men (living under vast Mountain Ranges, like Himalayas) to be Psionic-Users (& Evil Monks), who had enslaved the tribal Human/Halfling populations who lived in the mountain valleys near the Yak-Men's territory... Except a small number of these also had Psionic abilities, and were able to establish a "resistance" to fight against the Yak-Men and free their people (and other cosmic stuff). That feels like it could fit right into some corner of Casmaron, and if anything like that pops up, I would DEFINITELY be interested ;-)

Thraxus |

It's a popular rallying point for psionics fans to say, "If it were included in the core books, it would not be a corner case and folks would be more accepting of it!" Well, in the 1st edition Player's Handbook, psionics WERE in the core books, and they were mostly regarded in the same way. Power gamers loved the psionics rules, and GMs who worried (rightfully, at the time) that psionics were overpowered would not allow them into their games.
In all fairness James, the psionics in 1e were badly designed. A character could end up with just enough power to be victimized by any psionic creature in the 1e MM or with cosmic level power, depending on the die roll.
2e was worse in that a psion could be uberpowerful with little effort.
3.5 fixed a lot of those issues. There are still some balance problems, but not to the level of broken some claim. I have run a number of games with psionic characters along side standard spellcasters. More often than not, the psion has eaten through his power points before the mage runs out of spells. That said, some of the powers and feats need to be rebalanced a bit so that they function in line with spells of the same level.

Melayl |

I have a question:
Does anybody know any literary sources where "Psionics" exists parallel to Wizards and Sorcerors and it's NOT just treated as a different approach to "The Force"?
(I'm asking because there's definitely tons of literary Psionic precendents, but NOT in parallel with "Magic", as far as I know)
I feel that Star Wars dealt with this well by saying "There are many ways to access the Force", meaning all Supernatural Powers share the same fundamental mechanics, but have slight niches, influenced by their base culture's perspective, etc.
Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar books come instantly to mind.
I believe Matthew Morris pointed out a few in his original post, as well.

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So correct me if I'm wrong...
But does the current XPH (errata and all) still allow a 20th level psion to effectively use all his PSPs to cast 9th-level psionic powers? If it does, then the system is still fundamentally flawed, in my opinion.
Here's how I understand things: Leaving bonus spells/bonus PSPs out of the equation, a 20th level sorcerer can cast 6 ninth level spells a day. He can cast a lot more lower-level spells, of couse, but he can't "swap out" 3 3rd level spells to cast another 9th level spell. He's still limited to his 6 9th level spells a day, and when he casts those, he still has 54 spells of levels 0 to 8 to rely on through the day, and after casting his 6 9th level spells, he can keep going and doesn't have to sit down and rest to recover those spells. If a psionic 9th level power and an arcane 9th level spell are both balanced so that they both do 100 points of damage per use, that sorcerer can do 600 points of damage a day with his 9th level spells.
The 20th level psion, on the other hand, has 343 power points a day. Casting a 9th level spell is 17 points. Since his potential is not locked in to specific tiers of power, he can use all his points to use a 9th level power 20 times in a day (with a little change left over). Sure, he does 2,000 points of damage, but at one spell per round, he's used up pretty much all of his power in 20 rounds, whereas the sorcerer has stuff going on for 60 rounds. Of course, the sorcerer's powers are increasingly less potent... in the end, the psion does more damage FASTER than the sorcerer, and depletes himself three times as quickly as the sorcerer.
In the end, what this does is lets the psion go nova; he unloads a disproportionately HUGE amount of power (which marginalizes all non-psionic classes; this is bad) and then has to stop for the day to replenish his stores when the rest of the party is only 1/3 depleted (which either makes the psion player have to spend 2/3 of his time being a high-hit point commoner or gives the game a 15-minute day and removes the "balancing" factor for the psion's ability to go nova completely from the question; both of these are bad.)
If the errata and whatever for the XPH has changed things so that the psion and the sorcerer (or any other core class) is more balanced, in that they maintain roughly equal levels of power for roughly equal lengths of times, then my primary complaint about the PSP system has already been addressed.

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In all fairness James, the psionics in 1e were badly designed. A character could end up with just enough power to be victimized by any psionic creature in the 1e MM or with cosmic level power, depending on the die roll.
2e was worse in that a psion could be uberpowerful with little effort.
3.5 fixed a lot of those issues. There are still some balance problems, but not to the level of broken some claim. I have run a number of games with psionic characters along side standard spellcasters. More often than not, the psion has eaten through his power points before the mage runs out of spells. That said, some of the powers and feats need to be rebalanced a bit so that they function in line with spells of the same level.
I agree that the 1st edition psionics were poorly designed. But the idea was sound; mind powers ARE cool.
The problem is that in 3rd edition, psioncs were developed in a vacuum, it seems; they're balanced against each other, and against a world in which monsters have the same ability as PCs, but they're not particularly well-balanced against the core rules.
Take this for example: An evil psion NPC has NO GAME REASON to throttle his PSP use. He can unleash all of his PSPs on the party as 9th level spells, since he's only going to be in the game for one combat; he doesn't have to hold back to save points for later. Against a party of psionic characters, the psionic characters realize this and match his power output. Against a party of non-psionic characters, they'll quickly be outclassed. If they can survive until the psion enemy runs out of PSPs, they can crush him, but that's unlikely since the water pressure in the psion NPC's firehose remains at 100% until the end, whereas each round the non-psion PCs continue, their pressure is reducing.
If the metaphor for "winning the combat" is "who can empty their tank first," the psion wins because each round that progresses, he keeps emptying the pool at a constant rate of 100% of capacity, whereas the non-core group's ability to empty the pool grows LESS efficient. They'll empty it eventually, but the psion will empty his three times over in that amount of time.

lynora |

I love psionics, always have. I think that the 3.5 XPH is very well balanced, a little on the weak side, truth be told. And yes the rule about not being able to spend more power points on a single power than your manifester level does need to be printed in ridiculously large font. Maybe given its own page. And it irks me that people don't use the psionics-magic transparency laid out as the default in the XPH (see page 55) and then complain because they use a variant rule that makes psionics more powerful. It's not. As it's intended to be played, it's very well balanced.
That said, what I love about psionics is the flavor. As long as I can have a system that allows for use of the mind to influence reality I'll be happy. I like my psionics to be different from spellcasting. One of my frustrations with the XPH is the ridiculously large number of psionic spell equivalants. It's not different enough. I would also like to see the disciplines actually matter, too. A kineticist should look vastly different than a telepath.
No matter how you decide to approach it, I'd be willing to give any rules update/rewrite a chance. See, as much as I love the XPH, I'm really sick of being told that I can't play my psionic character because the DM just doesn't have time to learn the new rules. So whether it's an update or a rewrite my biggest concern is making it more friendly to those who need to learn how it works quickly.

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And it's probably a good time to remind psionics fans:
I DO like psionics. I like them a lot. I've been responsible for the VAST MAJORITY of any psionic-related material being included in Golarion material, either by asking folk to write a section about it for a book or by writing psionic stuff myself.
I want psionics to play nice with the rest of the world; I want to be able to have psionic monsters in Pathifnder adventures, I want to have a psionic iconic (and not just because that rhymes cool) on a cover. But as long as psionics don't play nice with non-psionic, core material, that won't happen.
And if "fixing" the psionic stuff so that it DOES play nice with non-psionic stuff makes all the current psionic fans abandon us and throw up their arms in anger and frustration, that's no good either.
Whew! Makes me dizzy!

Quandary |

Exactly James, that's the problem with Points:
I like the play-style of Points for Spellcasters just as much,
but it's highly problematic to design adventures around both Vancian and Spellpoints.
Honestly, I think updating Spellpoints/Psipoints for Pathfinder is great,
but it would be a Side-Bar/Optional Rule, not something you could "take for granted" to use in any adventure. That said, there's nothing stopping a group from playing Vancian when they're using a published adventure, and switching to Spell Points when running their own adventures with the same characters.
@Melayl: Thanks, I'll try to check that out... (Man, her last name... OUCH! ;-))

Melayl |

So correct me if I'm wrong...
But does the current XPH (errata and all) still allow a 20th level psion to effectively use all his PSPs to cast 9th-level psionic powers? If it does, then the system is still fundamentally flawed, in my opinion.
Here's how I understand things: Leaving bonus spells/bonus PSPs out of the equation, a 20th level sorcerer can cast 6 ninth level spells a day. He can cast a lot more lower-level spells, of couse, but he can't "swap out" 3 3rd level spells to cast another 9th level spell. He's still limited to his 6 9th level spells a day, and when he casts those, he still has 54 spells of levels 0 to 8 to rely on through the day, and after casting his 6 9th level spells, he can keep going and doesn't have to sit down and rest to recover those spells. If a psionic 9th level power and an arcane 9th level spell are both balanced so that they both do 100 points of damage per use, that sorcerer can do 600 points of damage a day with his 9th level spells.
The 20th level psion, on the other hand, has 343 power points a day. Casting a 9th level spell is 17 points. Since his potential is not locked in to specific tiers of power, he can use all his points to use a 9th level power 20 times in a day (with a little change left over). Sure, he does 2,000 points of damage, but at one spell per round, he's used up pretty much all of his power in 20 rounds, whereas the sorcerer has stuff going on for 60 rounds. Of course, the sorcerer's powers are increasingly less potent... in the end, the psion does more damage FASTER than the sorcerer, and depletes himself three times as quickly as the sorcerer.
In the end, what this does is lets the psion go nova; he unloads a disproportionately HUGE amount of power (which marginalizes all non-psionic classes; this is bad) and then has to stop for the day to replenish his stores when the rest of the party is only 1/3 depleted (which either makes the psion player have to spend 2/3 of his time being a high-hit point commoner or gives the game a 15-minute day...
Yes, they can still do all those things, if they wish to be stupid. The DM doesn't need to stop the action just because they decided to blow through all their points, though. Yes, the psion would probably die (being, as you said, a glorified commoner -- with the treasure of a 20th level adventurer...). I figure if the psion dies a time or two, the player will decide to be a little more responsible.
You can, if you choose, decide to put in a "cap", so to speak, on using higher-level abilities. Some sort of penalty if they use too many in a row, or too many per day -- ability burn or such. I've done so with the magic system I converted to points. Although, we never do that high a level of play, so it really doesn't matter to us.
The folks at Dreamscarred Press may have come up with something else.

Ross Byers RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |

So correct me if I'm wrong...
But does the current XPH (errata and all) still allow a 20th level psion to effectively use all his PSPs to cast 9th-level psionic powers? If it does, then the system is still fundamentally flawed, in my opinion.
James, you might want to take a peek at the Zelazny spellcasting rules I wrote up some time ago. They're a modified form of the Spell Points rules (and spell points themselves being a modified form of the Power points rules, so I believe they're applicable.)
Under my rules, a spellcaster can use all their points to cast 9th level spells, but they have a 'throttle' by not having all the points accessable at once. It might be an idea for a way to leash in Psionics.

hogarth |

So correct me if I'm wrong...
But does the current XPH (errata and all) still allow a 20th level psion to effectively use all his PSPs to cast 9th-level psionic powers? If it does, then the system is still fundamentally flawed, in my opinion.
But 9th level psionic power are generally not as good as 8th level spells. Or 7th level spells, even (because spells scale "for free" and powers generally don't). So a 20th level psion can manifest 17+ 20 pp 9th level powers per day, and a 20th sorcerer can cast 18+ 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells per day...as well as a bunch of other spells on top of that.
But I doubt that talking about it will convince you. I'd be delighted to run a play-by-post playtest if you're really interested in seeing for yourself.

Inquisitor Thresh |

What does Psionics mean to you?
I think a question like that really takes away from what Psionics actually ARE and leaves it open to interpretations and biased view points. The focusing point of the word is “Psi” which basically is a general term for both extrasensory perception and psychokeneticism. In essence the ability to manipulate, or perceive your surroundings, in a paranormal way. Which in a way is exactly what magic does and how it reacts.
That brings up the issue of why magic is different from Psionics. Well it can be simple or it can be complicated depending on your view or how you feel game semantics should go. In my personal view point I think that magic and psionics are completely unrelated regardless if they may have some of the same traits. For one with psionics you’re exerting your direct force of willpower upon the reality at hand. Were with Arcane magic you’re essentially using an outside force of manipulation to create paranormal effects.
Understandably that doesn’t answer the question but it does set the stage for an opinion of how it could. Firstly lets take the 4 (in my opinion of magic types), you have Arcane, Divine, Nature, and lastly Mind. Let’s look at Nature magic…now no one ever really disputes this one because it’s considered some god of nature is conveying its power to said Druid/Ranger type. But not so, the Druid of old didn’t even need a god to receive his power. In mother natures infinite wisdom would grant her sons and daughters mysterious powers to move tree’s and call in lighting bolts like an artillery man. Yet we never disputed the Druids original sense of power even though it made even less sense then someone who’s own innate abilities of the mind allow him to manifest them.
Still though, like I said it’s the exerting of ones willpower and strength of mind upon your surroundings. With the classical sense of what “psi” means I’d imagine that psionics should be limited to perception and manipulation of the physical reality. That means no metacreativity and summoning ectoplasmic oogie boogies from thin air. On a side note ectoplasmic energy is supposedly what “ghosts” are made of according to many “ghost busters.”
I maintain the fact that i think that psionics, arcane/divine casters are differnt cause they are using the way they access their powers completely differently ... id say more but its lunch time and im getting scatter brained...

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So correct me if I'm wrong...
But does the current XPH (errata and all) still allow a 20th level psion to effectively use all his PSPs to cast 9th-level psionic powers? If it does, then the system is still fundamentally flawed, in my opinion.
Here's how I understand things: Leaving bonus spells/bonus PSPs out of the equation, a 20th level sorcerer can cast 6 ninth level spells a day. He can cast a lot more lower-level spells, of couse, but he can't "swap out" 3 3rd level spells to cast another 9th level spell. He's still limited to his 6 9th level spells a day, and when he casts those, he still has 54 spells of levels 0 to 8 to rely on through the day, and after casting his 6 9th level spells, he can keep going and doesn't have to sit down and rest to recover those spells. If a psionic 9th level power and an arcane 9th level spell are both balanced so that they both do 100 points of damage per use, that sorcerer can do 600 points of damage a day with his 9th level spells.
The 20th level psion, on the other hand, has 343 power points a day. Casting a 9th level spell is 17 points. Since his potential is not locked in to specific tiers of power, he can use all his points to use a 9th level power 20 times in a day (with a little change left over). Sure, he does 2,000 points of damage, but at one spell per round, he's used up pretty much all of his power in 20 rounds, whereas the sorcerer has stuff going on for 60 rounds. Of course, the sorcerer's powers are increasingly less potent... in the end, the psion does more damage FASTER than the sorcerer, and depletes himself three times as quickly as the sorcerer.
In the end, what this does is lets the psion go nova; he unloads a disproportionately HUGE amount of power (which marginalizes all non-psionic classes; this is bad) and then has to stop for the day to replenish his stores when the rest of the party is only 1/3 depleted (which either makes the psion player have to spend 2/3 of his time being a high-hit point commoner or gives the game a 15-minute day...
But this is an unrealistic set up (and the damage amounts are suggestive but not backed up or benchmarked to actual spells or powers). Said sorcerer has probably buffed himself with lower level spells, so he has stuff going on already, but that in no way impacts upon his ability to use his six high level spells. Plus his eighth and seventh level spells might well do exactly the same amount of damage by virtue of his level (this gets to be less so with lower level spells, but it still scales by level for free up to the level cap for the particular spell) as his ninth level spells, so his actual potential damage output is much higher than you suggest.
A psion will already affect his ability to cast his spells and go nova if he does some preparatory buffing, instantly affecting his power output at all levels (at 20th level, many worthwhile buffs are much lower in level than 9th, and also scale for free for an ordinary spell caster) due to the use of power points. And while the psion may be able to cast all of those powers at 9th level in quick succession, he is paying 17 (or more) power points to do so. If he ups the ante on his lower level powers (like 7th or 8th level) to get the same scaling effect a sorcerer gets for free (i.e. 20th caster level) they cost the same as 9th level spells.
This is the huge misconception about psionics v Vancian casting. Comparing 9th level slots misses the point - 8th and 7th level slots are very nice to have and have a pretty good killing effect yet they are totally ignored in your analysis. Spell effects do not scale by level like a sorcerer's, they scale by how many power points you put in. In my view, psionics is weaker than normal magic, because of this.

hogarth |

9th level Psionic powers are equal to 9th level spells. Reality Revision, for instance, is Wish.
Wish can emulate a whole mess o' spells -- good spells, from the wizard, cleric & druid spells lists. Reality Revision can emulate a much smaller variety of psionic powers.
Ross, have you tried playtesting a psion over a number of levels? I'd be delighted to DM a playtest for you, too.

DougErvin |

And it's probably a good time to remind psionics fans:
I DO like psionics. I like them a lot. I've been responsible for the VAST MAJORITY of any psionic-related material being included in Golarion material, either by asking folk to write a section about it for a book or by writing psionic stuff myself.
I want psionics to play nice with the rest of the world; I want to be able to have psionic monsters in Pathifnder adventures, I want to have a psionic iconic (and not just because that rhymes cool) on a cover. But as long as psionics don't play nice with non-psionic, core material, that won't happen.
And if "fixing" the psionic stuff so that it DOES play nice with non-psionic stuff makes all the current psionic fans abandon us and throw up their arms in anger and frustration, that's no good either.
Whew! Makes me dizzy!
Part of the problem which barbarians and paladins are also guilty of is the ability to generate damage spikes. A fighter or ranger are pretty constant in their damage output round to round. A barbarian or paladin can go nova in a certain encounter. This ability to generate a damage spike is just more pronounced and available in psions and psychic warriors. For a single combat nobody except a rogue in perfect conditions can match the damage output of a psychic warrior. Smoothing out the damage output of psionics will be a formidiable task.
Doug

Quandary |

...I don't see the big issue as whether Psipoints is "more powerful" than Vancian magic, since if that's the case it's easy enough to fix. Being able to balance written adventures around both at the same time IS an issue, but more to the point, you can't drop Psipoint NPCs into an adventure without forcing the DM to learn a whole new rules-subsystem. And why do a huge number of 3.5 Psi-powers largely re-create magic spells? 3.5 Psionics seems an excuse to use non-Vancian casting, which is disingenuous: there's no real reason Points can't apply to Sorcerors, etc, as well.

KaeYoss |

To me, psionics are the mana users in a vancian world, at least in D&D. I love vancian magic, but I also love D&D psionics.
One thing I noticed in 3e was that psionics was all over the place: At first it was below par, except for a couple of tricks, and then it overshot the goal of making it balanced with magic by going too far. It should be balanced, not too strong, not too weak.
Or, maybe, if it is more powerful, it should be powerful only in some aspects, and weaker in others. Messing with minds is right up psi's alley, and moving things with your mind. And maybe mind over body stuff.
What it should not outclass magic in is slinging about fire and ice and the like.
Psionics, to me, is something akin to magic: It changes reality with a power normal people do not understand. But while magic uses formulae or power granted by higher powers, psionic is the power to directly alter reality, which isn't as immutable as everybody things. You'd think that this would make the psionicist all-poverful, godlike, but they don't fully understand this. They haven't completely awakened this ability. So they subconsciously limit themselves, create their own paths to walk on, just like spellcasters use beaten paths to walk on. That's why they're not more powerful than spellcasters. They slowly unlearn their limits, becoming more powerful - which works about as fast as a spellcaster learning more powerful spells. Convenient, isn't it.
But psionics, especially as a Pathfinder RPG book, should support several takes on what psionics is. Chronicles can have its very own psionics theory, but RPG should be a bit more open about the stuff.
XPH generally did quite a good job for psionic, with a number of problems.
Some of the powers are probably a bit too versatile: Instead of resistance to one energy type, you get resistance to all of them. Instead of fireball, you get a ball of energy where you can choose the energy, and even have extras like harder saving throws, different saving throws, and extra damage (a lot more than a PF evoker has). I don't know if they should be made less versatile, or the power of some powers toned down, but something should be done.
Minor thing: shape mindblade should be redone. Let them get different shapes. Maybe with a Improved Mindblade Shape feat or just like this.
But, really, the soulknive might be turned into a bunch of feats, anyway, or maybe a psi power. With a minor PP expenditure (or maybe the expenditure of your psionic focus), you can manifest a weapon of mindstuff (or whatever you want to call that stuff). The other class abilities often emulate feats, so they can just be taken as those feats. And then include some ancestral dai-sho stuff into the feat (saying that you can enhance it yourself, just as if you had the feats and all that) and the class is covered.

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James posted this on another thread, but I'll reply here.
What about the XPH system do you like? What about it is elegant? Would you still find it likable and elegant if it didn't let a psionic character overpower his powers and blow them all out at once? Do you like the system because it lets you unleash a LOT more power than a Core Character at an equal level, even if that means you diminish your resources a lot faster than the core character?
Again, I'm not trying to be accusatory or antagonistic. I'm just trying to wrap my head around things.
As an aside: A lot of folk complain about the 15-minute adventuring day. I don't really see that much in games I play... but INVARIABLY if a game includes a psionic character, the game develops this problem immediately. The psionic character uses all his resources up too quickly, and even though the rest of the group is ready to go, we usually decide to camp anyway because that lets the psionic character recharge his batteries, and since encounters go so much more smoothly for us when we have him going nova, there's a pretty strong desire among the PCs to let the Psion do his thing.
Liking the XPH system, for me, has nothing to do with power-gaming, going nova, or being "better" than core classes. I just think that (with the exception of a few problem powers or corner cases) the system is extremely well-designed and offers a versatility that provides a nice "organic" feel to a psionic character -- they are, after, beholden to no god or arcane magic system of spell-casting that limits the parameters of their powers -- they just know how to do something and can tweak effects more easily on the fly, so to speak.
I've never had an issue in my games with nova psions, partly because my groups tend to be fairly competitive with each other. So when one player a few campaigns ago experimented with "going nova," the response from the other players was, "Ok, that was cool. Have fun standing in the back plinking away with your crossbow while the rest of us continue kicking ass."
My major gripe is that critics (many of whom either have never read the XPH or simply don't understand the rules, like the PP-per-power cap) latch onto the one or two rough edges and want to toss the entire system. Instead, why not take some of the ideas expressed earlier in this thread, "Pathfinder-ize" the classes, fix the few broken/abusive powers, and preserve the core system?
If nova-ing is such an issue (I think it's far more of a DM issue than a rules issue, personally) then add some additional controls. For instance, in addition to the PP cap per power, maybe psions risk physical damage from the stress if they spend max PPs two rounds in a row. That spreads out their PP use over time and fits flavor-wise.
So, in summary, I'd like the XPH to get the same treatment the 3.5 rules did for Pathfinder - smoothing out the rough edges, but preserving the core system. I'm not interested in buying a new psionics system that scraps, rather than fixes, the OGL core.

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3.5 Psionics seems an excuse to use non-Vancian casting, which is disingenuous: there's no real reason Points can't apply to Sorcerors, etc, as well.
Which is true, yet if the point of the Pathfinder countermovement is to keep the old sacred cows such as Vancian casting, then we're not likely to toss it out just to keep psionics balanced, are we?
I like the direction this is going, psionics as a different, yet equivalent spell system. Refine it, playtest it and slap it on paper and I'd buy that.

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Take this for example: An evil psion NPC has NO GAME REASON to throttle his PSP use. He can unleash all of his PSPs on the party as 9th level spells, since he's only going to be in the game for one combat... If the metaphor for "winning the combat" is "who can empty their tank first," the psion wins because each round that progresses, he keeps emptying the pool at a constant rate of 100% of capacity, whereas the non-core...
So just add a throttle. Otherwise, the logic is no different than "divine power is kinda broken, better toss out Vancian casting."

Elijah Snow |
This is going to sound simplistic, but I'd simply like Paizo to apply the core ethos for Pathfinder - 3.5 but better - to the XPH.
1. Improve the existing rules without creating a new alternative system.
2. Continue to allow psionics and magic to be the same or different (I'm of the mind of different- psionics is a spectacular threat to worlds ruled by magic if it works differently, otherwise what's the point?)
3. Make psionic characters more interesting at every level.
4. Reenvision the look and feel of psionics the way Paizo has "Pathfinderized" the look and feel of third edition.
5. Provide some innovative variations on classic psionic themes, like integrating a dark sun setting into Golarion.

Thraxus |

I agree that the 1st edition psionics were poorly designed. But the idea was sound; mind powers ARE cool.
The problem is that in 3rd edition, psioncs were developed in a vacuum, it seems; they're balanced against each other, and against a world in which monsters have the same ability as PCs, but they're not particularly well-balanced against the core rules.
I agree that some balancing is needed. Some powers are better than their equvilent spells and vice verse.
As to the fire hose effect, I have not seen it. The psion in a pervious campaign I ran tended to over spend his powers trying to deal with a lot of creatures. As a PC, a large pool of powerpoints can make you think that you have points to burn. That is a bad habit that hits the psion worse than the wizard.
I have to admit that your example is a valid concern. While I don't run my NPCs that way, it does not mean that the rules prevent me from doing so. I also know some DMs that would.
Edit: Aubrey makes a valid point. A 20th level psion who wants to use a lower level power a maximum effect would have to paid the same cost as a 9th level power.

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One idea for a throttle mechanic would be to give manifesters a per-encounter sub-pool of points from their total daily allotment. Basically say "You can use X pps per day, but only Y per encounter." Perhaps the wilder and/or psionic feats could allow the manifester to go past Y at the cost of taking damage? A psion could still conceivably nova in a desperate situation, but would almost certainly kill himself doing so. Seems nice and heroic to me.
I know lots of people aren't fans of per-encounter abilities around here, but it seems like the simplest way to add the throttling that some people desire, and would be easily ignored by people who liked the old way.

Quandary |

Quandary wrote:3.5 Psionics seems an excuse to use non-Vancian casting, which is disingenuous: there's no real reason Points can't apply to Sorcerors, etc, as well.Which is true, yet if the point of the Pathfinder countermovement is to keep the old sacred cows such as Vancian casting, then we're not likely to toss it out just to keep psionics balanced, are we?
My point is that Psionics should also work with Vancian.
An "Optional Side-bar" can detail how BOTH Psionics and "Magic" can work with Spell/Psi-Points....Interestingly,
in all the "how do you see the flavor of Psionics" responses, I don't see much difference to Sorcerors.
Of course, that makes sense if Mind Flayers can be run either with Su-Abilities or Psionic rules.