But how are you planning to integrate Psionics into the APs?
Will using the Psionics rules be required in settings where Psionics is a factor (Vudra, Castrovel, ?)
That would imply that groups who don't like having a separate "supernatural" subsystem would not play/purchase those APs. Fracturing the playerbase of AP/setting material around a variant mechanic seems counter to Paizo's interests... So how will Psionics material be approached for those not using the variant rules? (I'm asking because if you're doing Psionics I'd like it to be well integrated in the setting)
I'd be sadly disappointed to finally get to Castrovel, and find out everything there resists spells just dandy because psi is just a funny name for magic.Unfortunately, that's the only way I see it working at all, since it's not good design to give psionics the ability to punch through SR.
How about just making the higher level Psionic effects somewhat weaker than Magical effects of the equivalent level to compensate for the fact that they ignore spell resistance?
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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One alternative could be to have SR and PR both work against the other force, but not as strong. Something along the lines of subtract 2 from SR against psionics and 2 from PR against magic. This would still have them work against the other so it's not like one creature type designed to resist "special effects" isn't completely vulnerable to the other type, but does have some of the flavor of they're different so a defense against one isn't as strong against the other.
I have never played with psionics. Don't know what I'm missing, or that I was missing anything to start with. Don't have anything against them, we have a lot of psionic characters in our M&M/Heroes Unltd games. Just never really thought to add that dimension to our D&D.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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One alternative could be to have SR and PR both work against the other force, but not as strong. Something along the lines of subtract 2 from SR against psionics and 2 from PR against magic. This would still have them work against the other so it's not like one creature type designed to resist "special effects" isn't completely vulnerable to the other type, but does have some of the flavor of they're different so a defense against one isn't as strong against the other.
I like that a lot. A +5 shift on the SR check or some such. You'd go from a typical 50% chance of your ability working to a 75% chance - keeping the flavor of "you're not strong against this" but not entirely ruining the value of SR/power resistance.
I ditto that, a great flavour crunch balance.
The problem with that option is that it makes it harder to integrate Psionics with Magic on an equal ground. In one case a Player would get an advantage just for playing outside the 'standard' rule, in the other it makes it less likely a DM will use Psionics monsters against a group of all non-psionic PCs.
The default Psionics-Magic Transparency rule works just fine as is. Making Psionics play on a different ground then magic makes it that much harder to integrate, and there for less likely to be considered. While I appreciate that people want to support a "different-flavor" for psionics it hasn't worked very well in the past.
Arcane and Divine magic have very different flavors but nearly identical mechanics. They do not come from the same source just like Psionics comes from a different source. Should they all have greater resistance to each other? If Arcane and Divine are said to come for the same root source ultimately then why can't Psionics come for that as well?
Psionics should have a clear focus on the mind. They should be better enchanters then arcanists. They should do the equivilent of illusion, but only for a set number of targets (no one else sees the 'illusion'). There should be some telekinesis. They should not conjure up anything, ever. There should be no teleportation, astral constructs, ability to produce any of the 5 energy types (cold, electricity, sonic, etc), nothing ever with a fort or reflex save, and definitely no ability to "divert teleportation" when such a power does not exist in arcane.
I'm just beginning to work my way through this thread but so far this quote best sums up my thoughts on how psionics should differ from magic.
I'd be sadly disappointed to finally get to Castrovel, and find out everything there resists spells just dandy because psi is just a funny name for magic.Unfortunately, that's the only way I see it working at all, since it's not good design to give psionics the ability to punch through SR. Conversely, if you're playing with these rules on Castrovel, and a sorcerer shows up, all of a sudden his magic is destroying all the indigenous life that's normally got power resistance. On a certain level this DOES appeal to me, since it's similar to how the Martians got taken out in "War of the Worlds" (not being able to resist what's the status quo on the new world), but it doesn't make for balanced game play. Especially if, some day, we want to introduce another form of power that operates on something other than magic or psionics. Say that's where we went with technology, and things like disintegrator beams and gravity flux bombs and nuclear resonators and torridoal vortex guns were balanced by giving monsters "tech resistance." Suddenly, all the monsters we'd designed for the core game and for the psionic game are outdated for use in the tech game.
By saying that psionics = magic, we don't set a precedent for having to redesign the entire library of monsters whenever we do a new setting, and we keep the compatibility up so that players and GMs can mix and match between subsets of the game.
I like to treat it a little like the Shadow Magic in Tome of Magic. There was a -4 when dealing with a true shadowcaster, because the 'spells' were a little alien. -4 is not a game breaker. Some creatures wouldn't be affected by this, due to location or interaction with creatures nearby. An example would be that drow SR would still affect psionics normally, because they do have run ins with illithids.
James, you might want to take a peek at the Zelazny spellcasting rules I wrote up some time ago. They're a modified form of the Spell Points rules (and spell points themselves being a modified form of the Power points rules, so I believe they're applicable.)
Under my rules, a spellcaster can use all their points to cast 9th level spells, but they have a 'throttle' by not having all the points accessable at once. It might be an idea for a way to leash in Psionics.
Do tell, where are these found?
Edit: nm, found link in profile.
Do tell, where are these found?James, you might want to take a peek at the Zelazny spellcasting rules I wrote up some time ago. They're a modified form of the Spell Points rules (and spell points themselves being a modified form of the Power points rules, so I believe they're applicable.)
Under my rules, a spellcaster can use all their points to cast 9th level spells, but they have a 'throttle' by not having all the points accessable at once. It might be an idea for a way to leash in Psionics.
The thread dicussing it is here, there is a link to a pdf in the first post.
I do warn that because the discussion thread for Zelazny Casting is currently archived, posting in it will cause the links to the thread to break (because it will come out of archive.) If this happens, using 'Zelazny rules' in the search box to the left should also find it, and I will fix the (editable) links as soon as possible.
For me, the problem with 2nd edition psionics was two-fold: a d20 roll to activate powers and the refresh rate for power points (primarily the refresh rate). A few minutes down-time and all your powers were restored, whereas traditional spellcasters required lengthy rest periods to recover. This system was easily abused and psionics were banned in our games.
With the coming of 3.x, these issues were resolved; psionics had the same disruption potentials as casters and were no longer virtual perpetual motion machines. With those changes, psionics were reintroduced into our game table. However, due to the negative connotations from 2nd edition, they are rarely played.
This dearth of activity at our table means that the only aspect I consider unbalancing in 3.x for psionics hasn't been an issue yet. Their needs to be a cap to damage dice for psionic powers. For example: a typical 1st level magical attack spell has a maximum of 5 dice of damage, whereas a typical 1st level psionic power has a damage cap of however many points that you can use in that round. I mean, da**, a 15th level psion with a 13 primary stat (just for example) could spend 15 points on mind thrust (a 1st level power) to do 15d10 damage on a failed DC 19 will save. WTF Assuming a psion with a 18 primary stat, the save DC would be 22.
I love the ability to augment a power by using more points, more personal energy, but there should be a cap on how much damage can be done based on the power level. So, add damage caps comparable to spellcasters and I will be a happy DM. Maybe not a happy player, but you can't have everything.
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But how are you planning to integrate Psionics into the APs?
Will using the Psionics rules be required in settings where Psionics is a factor (Vudra, Castrovel, ?)
That would imply that groups who don't like having a separate "supernatural" subsystem would not play/purchase those APs. Fracturing the playerbase of AP/setting material around a variant mechanic seems counter to Paizo's interests... So how will Psionics material be approached for those not using the variant rules? (I'm asking because if you're doing Psionics I'd like it to be well integrated in the setting)
I like the simple approach WotC took here. Two choices left to the players:
1. Psionics and Magic are interchangeable.
2. Psionics and Magic are different.
You decide.
I like the simple approach WotC took here. Two choices left to the players:
1. Psionics and Magic are interchangeable.
2. Psionics and Magic are different.
Well, for one, it seems problematic to write an AP if you can't know whether PC/NPC Psions's powers are effective vs. magic. So at least for their own APs, I'd think there would need to be a default (which James has said would be interchangeability).
But what I'm talking about is if Paizo actually develops this class, then they'd certainly want to "put it in the world", i.e. APs with NPC Psions/factions/items. If all those require the new rules to run (i.e. their stat blocks require understanding the psionic rules), that creates a problem for the portion of the Pathfinder audience that doesn't want to learn or keep track of a parallel way to achieve Supernatural effects.
Compare this to introducing a variant Caster from Al-Qadim or Oriental Adventures, who while different as a Class, will have Stat Blocks that anyone familiar with Core can pick-up and run with. What I'm getting at is that Paizo probably doesn't want to fracture the audience for their APs on mere mechanical grounds, so they'd probably want to have a version of Psionics that IS instantly usable and recognizable to those used to the Core Magic system.
Paizo COULD create two dis-jointed versions of Psions for that purpose, requiring double-stat blocks for NPCs (& items), but it seems to me that the optimal approach is to use the SAME stat block by either set of rules, i.e. the same Spells/Powers are listed for NPCs, and you can USE them according to either approach (Vancian/Points). I also suggested using the same Spells that already exist in Core when they fit the purpose (i.e Clairvoyance) just as different Casters or Monsters don't have separate versions of Spells just because they have a different "method" of creating the effect.
Spells could be classified according to diffent Psionic "Casting" Stats, and be gained at different levels than other Casters. Unique Psionic Powers could still exist, but if non-unique powers work just like their existing spell counterparts, an NPC statblock is easier to pickup and roll with: DMs aren't required to be familiar with different rules for each new type of Monster, for example.
I did something similar, with a non-linear cost structure. One big change: it costs 1 pt per spell level to Prepare a spell, and it takes 1 minute per spell level. That way you have to choose how much time and resources to spend in Prep.
Cantrips/Orisons normally cost 1 pt. Preparing them gives the option of spending 1 point then casting for 0, or Preparing for 0 and spending 1 to cast. If cost is paid in Preparation, the Cntp/Orsn can be cast for normal cost without expending the Prepared slot, or cast for 0 base cost expending the slot.
Casting a spell that you haven't Prepared is called Extemporaneous Casting, and takes about 50% more points and more time than listed for the spell. (I don't use the same time/initiative system, but it changes most to Full Round equivalent, some a little longer.)
Spell . . Prep . . Cast . . Extemp
Level . . Cost . . Cost . . Cost
. 0 . . . . . * . . .. . * . . . . . 1
. 1 . . . . . 1 . . .. . 1 . . . . . 3
. 2 . . . . . 2 . . .. . 2 . . . . . 6
. 3 . . . . . 3 . . .. . 3 . . .. . 10
. 4 . . . . . 4 . . .. . 5 . . .. . 15
. 5 . . . . . 5 . . .. . 7 . . .. . 21
. 6 . . . . . 6 . . .. . 9 . . .. . 28
. 7 . . . . . 7 . . . . 12 . . . . 36
. 8 . . . . . 8 . . . . 15 . . . . 45
. 9 . . . . . 9 . . . . 18 . . . . 55
Spell descriptions may specify a higher or slightly lower cost. Spells that cause direct damage add 1 pt cost for every d6 damage, or for every 3.5 points of average (or fixed) damage (round up any fractional number of increments). Death effect and similar powers add 50-100% or more of normal casting cost. Spells that disallow a saving throw typically add 1 pt per hit die (or per 4.5 hit points) affected. Spells that impose experience point costs have increased casting point costs.
There is also have a Calming Interval of 1 hr per spell level (1 hr for Cantrip/Orison). Casting the same spell again before the Interval elapses adds to casting cost, 1 pt per hour short of Interval (rounded up). This is cumulative for repeated castings. Timekeeping is a pain for pencil & paper play, but for a typical encounter it is a simple +SpellLevel to cost per repeat casting.
Spell points are arbitrarily given by class. Base is highest of (Int, Wis, Cha) + bonuses for (Int, Wis, Cha). For each level add dN+ClassLevel+bonus for full casting classes, or dN+ClassLevel/2+bonus (round down) for other classes. The dN is d8 for Arcane, d6 for Bard/Divine, d4 all others.
ALL extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like powers have spell-point costs. Saving throws against direct magic or mind-affecting powers cost 1 point, and can be modestly augmented by spending more points (before the throw).
At high levels there aren't enough spell points to Prepare and cast all spell slots. There is also a Fatigue system involved which allows deficit spending. Casting deficit spell points has a very steep fatigue cost (full deficit Extemporaneous cost of a 6th level spell would almost certainly render the caster unconscious).
...Compare this to introducing a variant Caster from Al-Qadim or Oriental Adventures, who while different as a Class, will have Stat Blocks that anyone familiar with Core can pick-up and run with...
OK, Sha'irs (from Al-Qadim) have been thrown around this thread a lot as an example of an alternative caster so I just thought I had to clear something up. You are right that any DM with the core rules looking at the stat-block of a Sha'ir would be fine with the spells listed (since they are all either arcane or divine). Without access to the original source of the Sha'ir class though, they would have a lot of trouble running the NPC. Both versions of the Sha'ir (from 2nd ed. and the 3.5 ed version in Dragon)get their spells in a very strange way compared to core arcane and divine casters. It takes time, it happens throughout the day (not all at once like a Wizard or Cleric), and takes a roll to succeed. It is something that would definitely come up in an encounter with one.
I know this doesn't really add anything to the debate, I just thought that Sha'irs were a poor example and it was beginning to bother me.
You're right, Sha'ir's were bizarre BECAUSE they departed from prepared/spontaneous conventions so much I was thinking more of the Elemental Wizards, different Clerics, & "Tattoo Wizards" w/ less Spells/more abilities, as my examples from al-Qadim.
...If Paizo's happy putting out material that REQUIRES a specific rules-extension to use, then there isn't a problem, but I don't know if they want to tie APs or Setting Material so strongly to a new rule system. I just thought it was an intriguing possibility to be able to use the same stat-blocks no matter what rules (Vancian/Points) are being played with. That, and all the space saved not replicating Spell Functions w/ separate Powers would mean more great flavor and Pathfinder goodness. :-)
If Spell Resistance doesn't affect Psionics, then a Psion is more or less automatically preferable to a wizard, because way more monsters have Spell Resistance than Power Resistance, for instance.
Easy change the name from Spell Resistance to Supernatural Resistance and have a creature resistant to all supernatural abilities including arcane, divine, psionic, and inbuilt supernatural abilities.
...If Paizo's happy putting out material that REQUIRES a specific rules-extension to use, then there isn't a problem, but I don't know if they want to tie APs or Setting Material so strongly to a new rule system. I just thought it was an intriguing possibility to be able to use the same stat-blocks no matter what rules (Vancian/Points) are being played with. That, and all the space saved not replicating Spell Functions w/ separate Powers would mean more great flavor and Pathfinder goodness. :-)
I agree with the idea, but even thematically and flavour-wise alot of people don't particularly want to include psionics. It may come up a little in the aberration campaign that is sure to come about at some point, but I think it will always be small or miniscule. NPC's but never more than one or three individuals.
Modules however, a three part linked psionic module is likely if they re-do the rules, same for epic.
That said, I'd love rule consistency/transparency, the problem is, for many psionics fans the points are a sacred cow, and why redo psionics for non-psionics fans?
I agree with the idea, but even thematically and flavour-wise alot of people don't particularly want to include psionics. It may come up a little in the aberration campaign that is sure to come about at some point, but I think it will always be small or miniscule. NPC's but never more than one or three individuals.
That said, I'd love rule consistency/transparency, the problem is, for many psionics fans the points are a sacred cow, and why redo psionics for non-psionics fans?
Well, if it's a thematic problem, then that would mean Psionics AREN'T going into Golarion/Pathfinder, and the concerns I mentioned don't really matter - However, I rather got the impression Psionics WERE planned to be present in Vudra and Castrovel along with Orv (presumably more humanoids w/ Class Levels in the former than the latter). Like I commented before, it's not like (XPH) Psions and Sorcerors' powers are so different, and especially given Monks are core, having a Psion Class with similar capabilities to the XPH Psion doesn't seem that far out: Vudra & Castrovel themselves already extend the thematic territory.
The problem is, for many psionics fans points are a sacred cow, and why redo psionics for non-psionics fans?
It's sortof an oddity, since Psionics rules have changed much more radically than "Core" D&D over the years, though the ones in XPH/3.5 are the most recent manifestation. There's definitely a sentiment (by XPH's fans) that those rules did work well for Psionics in 3.5, but then again, Spellpoints in Unearted Arcana are VERY VERY similar, differing mainly in that Psionics went for less "Spells" and more "Augmenting" while Spellpoints stayed "backwards compatible" to the "Spell List"... So if it's about the MECHANIC, that's really about what kind of GAME you're playing; If it's about the FLAVOR, that really can work with any mechanic depending on the game it's in. I think THAT, more than a flavor issue (since few have a problem with mind-reading astral-travelling mystics), is what the "Anti-Psionics/XPH" sentiment is about: It changes the sort of game that is played. People like their D&D.
I feel the mechanics will work out however;
Having an integrated place in the Setting material is more interesting to me, otherwise it's just another d20 Psionics implementation with little background and adventure support.
I would vastly prefer a system that tweaks the current XPH version, rather than changing it completely. I admit that the problem of the 'Psion going Nova' is real, however. But I think that this is mostly a problem of the single powers themselves, rather than the system.
I love the ability to augment a power by using more points, more personal energy, but there should be a cap on how much damage can be done based on the power level. So, add damage caps comparable to spellcasters and I will be a happy DM. Maybe not a happy player, but you can't have everything.
This is the most balancing thing that could affect a psionic character with little modifications to the rules, IMHO (no maximum number of times you can augment a power to the top, neither maximum points per encounter, for example - and, by the way, what constitutes an 'encounter' ? What if waves of guards pour off the castle barracks to challenge the PCs trapped in the treasure room? This is one of the things I will never like of 4th Edition... But I'm digressing).
The problem currently is that nothing stops a Psion to burn 20 PP at 20th level with his 1st-level Mind Thrust - even if we create a cap of the maximum number of times per day a Psion can burn his maximum PP capacity per spell, he could still spend 18, or 14... so, it would be better to cap the POWER itself, rather than the Psion.
Something like
max PP for a 1st level power = 5, plus the Metapsionic Feats
max PP for a 2nd level power = 7, plus the Metapsionic Feats
and so on (and so, get rid of the 'quicken the power' built INSIDE the power itself... what is the purpose of the Feat, if most powers can do it anyway ???)
Oh, and I'm absolutely for the magic-psionic transparency, btw. This could be a little strange, but as The 8th Dwarf suggested:
Easy change the name from Spell Resistance to Supernatural Resistance and have a creature resistant to all supernatural abilities including arcane, divine, psionic, and inbuilt supernatural abilities.
Maybe not also Supernatural abilities, but the idea is good (and the default by XPH).
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Wraith,
a couple of points to your posts.
It is part of the mechanics of the psion that most, if not all, powers don't 'cap' except for the psion's level. Not counting powers gained by feats, the psion knows 36 powers at 20th level. Assuming they always take a power at the highest level known, that's a progression of 5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/6 (edit: corrected my math, thank you hogarth) they never get to swap those powers out, unless they have psychic reformation, which costs XP. (and it should cost XP)
The Wilder knows a whopping 11 powers. 2/1/1/1/1/1/1/2.
The Psychic warrior knows 20. 3/3/3/3/3/5
To compare to the arcane classes, the Sorcerer knows 34 spells (plus 9 0 level, but we'll leave that out) 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3. A couple more low level, but fewer high level. They also get to swap out those lower level spells, so they can, say, ditch charm person when they get charm monster.
The Wizard (not counting 0 level or int) knows 41 spells, plus all 0 level spells, just from advancing. This works out to 5/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/8. Wow, why does that look familiar? Plus part of their class feature is the ability to buy spells/add them from others spellbooks.
And, just for completeness, the bard knows 29 spells, plus zero levels, plus swap outs. 5/5/5/5/5/4.
If we're forced to compare arcane casters with psions, the Sorcerer knows a few less high level spells, but has a larger 'clip' The Wizard knows at least as many, but must load his 'clip' every morning. The bard outdoes the psychic warrior on endurance and variety, but isn't a front line combatant. And the wilder just lags behind. Even the battle sorcerer knows more spells (25)
The arcane casters essentially get free augmentation. A magic missile cast by a 9th level wizard does 5d4+5 damage, for the same price of a 1st level slot. a crystal shard manifested by a psion using one power point does... 1d6 points of damage. for him to fire off that crystal shard at 9d6 points of damage, it costs 9 power points, or in essense a
5th level spell slot. average of 31.5 damage, mathmatically probable (but unlikely) to do 108 points on a crit. a third level spell slot throwing an empowered magic missile, will do on average 24 points of damage (26 if you empower the +1). An empowered firball (5th level spell) does on average 47 points of damage in a 20' radius. Again, advantage caster.
The psionic system assumes that the psion can throw a 20d10 mind blast at 20th level. It also assumes that's going to suck off 5% of their resources, save for nothing, not affect a lot of critters at high levels, and can be blocked by anything that stops a 1st level power. For that kind of oomph, the wizard/sorcerer can throw empowered delayed blast fireballs, meteor swarms, etc. It also assumes that a sorcerer 20 thowing 7 meteor swarms, still has a full clip of 8th level 7th level etc. The psion throwing 7 17 point powers just blew through 1/4 of his clip.
The two systems are different but compatible. having played psions, erudites (closed content) and psychic warriors, and having played sorcerers, wizards and duskblades(again, closed content) they're seperate, but highly balanced when the rules are followed. Including the metacap as it is written.
and yes, transparency is a must. To give an example of 'psionics are different' blowing things way out of proportion.
19th level psion, ego whip 5d4 charisma damage, DC 16 plus stat. Average damage, 12.5 points.
14/5 level sorcerer/Archamage. empowered maximised touch of idiocy, reach spell twice high arcane. range 60 feet, 6 + (1d6*.5) penalty to int/wis/cha.
If both have to deal with spell resistance, then both have a 30% chance of failure. Odds are that the ego whip will do 6 points of cha damage, limiting him to second level spells (if he gets lucky maybe he'll do the full 12) the Sorcerer is going to inflict a penalty of 7 or 8, maybe 9, shutting down his casting stat entirely. (and affecting his will save)
without that 30% chance of failure, the psion's going to look a lot better. Against a great wyrm, it becomes a 50/50 shot for a 21st level caster to beat the SR. Again, the Psion looks a lot better, since now he can empower his own power for 18 points on average.
Likewise, at 15th level, a psion has a 50/50 shot of getting past the PR of a neothelid. if you use psionics are different, then the wizard's going to make bait of the neothelid much faster.
As to Quicken being part of the psion's augment. a) normally quicken costs 6 power points, which is how much most of the swift action augments cost and b) the XPH introduced the Swift/immediate action, so of course it will have more augments than the PHB.
It is part of the mechanics of the psion that most, if not all, powers don't 'cap' except for the psion's level. Not counting powers gained by feats, the psion knows 36 powers at 20th level. Assuming they always take a power at the highest level known, that's a progression of 5/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/8 they never get to swap those powers out, unless they have psychic reformation, which costs XP. (and it should cost XP)
The actual progression of powers known would be 5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/6; psions only gain one new power known at levels 11, 13, 15, 17 and 19.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It is part of the mechanics of the psion that most, if not all, powers don't 'cap' except for the psion's level. Not counting powers gained by feats, the psion knows 36 powers at 20th level. Assuming they always take a power at the highest level known, that's a progression of 5/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/8 they never get to swap those powers out, unless they have psychic reformation, which costs XP. (and it should cost XP)The actual progression of powers known would be 5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/6; psions only gain one new power known at levels 11, 13, 15, 17 and 19.
That's what I get for posting w/o caffiene. Thank you. That puts us at 36.
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So I'm asking you:
What does Psionics mean to you?
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
--Erik
Psionics is: Power Points and self-augmented powers, crystal damage=no SR, energy damage comes in whatever type you want at that time, and telepathy with extra sensory perception.
Publish a book with similar rules to the XPH, with manifester levels, 1-9th lvl powers, and update the classes up to PFRPG power levels, and I'll buy at least 1.
Deal Breakers: making psionics not as powerful as magic (different, yes, weaker, no), dropping telepathy as an ability to get SOMEHOW, or any other "Only can be done by magic" type of abilities (teleportation, energy damage, disintegrate, summon, polymorph, etc)
-t
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While I will not say this of everyone, I seem to find most people who thing Psionics are unbalanced and overpowerful are those that have never used them, or have only tried them, and not played fully with them. I recently had a campaign that focused completely on Psionics. (It was kind of a test for my campaign world. A psionic faction was trying to remove magic, and leave only psionics). I found out quickly that a psion is powerful, but not more so than a mage.
It certainly seemed that they were getting more for their buck, but at the end of the day, they truly had done about the same a wizard could do. The only think I saw was their versatility with energy. Being able to pick the energy on use was a bit too good.
As for Psionics in Pathfinder, my opinion would be good news and bad news. I would love to see it. I think it is a great addition. The bad news... I don't think we need to change anything. Psionics stacks of well vs the pathfinder classes, just as it is. The psychic warrior could use some help, and I would love to see a more fighter type soulknife.. (Psi-knight). I too think it would be nice to have a psionic healing class.
As much as I understand why transparency is good, I don't like it. Part of the reason it seems necessary it that the current version of the game doesn't have psionics, so no one creates spells that specifically target psionics. Unless you have psionics common, no one makes magic item that affect psionics. Also when you only have so many slots, it is hard to choose, do I take the ring of spell resistance, or the ring of power resistance. That said, I still like the flavor of it being different. I like the fact that a dispel magic dosen't work on a psionic wall. I don't have a solution for this one.
One thing I would like to see is some type of system that builds in fatigue as power points are used. Maybe, less then 25% you are fatigued, and less then 10% exhausted, etc, to show them using their strength.
What psionics is to me? I view psionics as a magic system, but unlike Arcane (which often focuses on arcane gestures, formulae, etc.) or Divine (praying to some deity, divine concept), psionics turns inward. A practitioner of the psionic arts seeks perfection within the self, so, much like an aesthetic monk, these folks learn to "know thyself" to the point that they condition the reality around them. But this is my point of view, which would mean less of a "wilder" class. I just don't think some should be born with the inherent knowledge of themselves. In sum: Psionics is "subjective reality", arcane and divine are "objective reality".
Dealbreaker? As I've never played psionics, nor have I had a player request to play a psion, I cannot offer anything on this. I, however, do like having some alternative options, or "reinterpretations", so by all means, as long as it proves balanced, I'd purchase a psionics book for PFRPG.
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Upfront apology: I was so disinterested in 3.5 Psionics, that I really don't want to read 5 pages of this thread, so apologies for any duplication and errors.
The funny thing is that I think an overwhelming majority of d20 gamers are OK with the idea of telepaths, empaths, psychics, and the "concept" of psionics.
Includes me.
And yet a lot of them do not allow the current (or any previous, let's be honest) version of the psionics rules in their campaign.
I never got into the rules. The dealbreaker for me was seeing that there were certain races that were psionic. So an elf, for example, either couldn't be psionic, or if he was, he wasn't as good at it as one of the 3 (or however many) main psionic races.
What does Psionics mean to you?
In general terms, doing stuff with your mind. In 3.5 terms, stuff I didn't feel like bothering with because it was too complex (it had some weird energy point system or something didn't it?) and because certain races were "the psionic races", which was stupid.
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
Treat psionics like any other magical ability that any race can have.
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Psionic races.
What does Psionics mean to you?How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Please do not include Psionics in anything except clearly labeled Psionics material. I played with psionics once... ONCE!
My grandmother hung me on a hook once... ONCE!
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Co-owner - Battlegrounds to Board Games
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One alternative could be to have SR and PR both work against the other force, but not as strong. Something along the lines of subtract 2 from SR against psionics and 2 from PR against magic. This would still have them work against the other so it's not like one creature type designed to resist "special effects" isn't completely vulnerable to the other type, but does have some of the flavor of they're different so a defense against one isn't as strong against the other.
In the XPH under the "Psionics are Different" section, creatures with Spell Resistance automatically have Power Resistance eqaul to SR - 10 and vice versa. Thus say a dragon had SR(25) he would automatically also have PR(15), this leaves the dragon less resistant to psionics than magic, but far from defenceless. There is no need to re-invent the wheel, this is current rules as written, if you dont want psionics to be the same as magic. There is also a dispel psionics spell that works against psionic powers just like dispel magic, it's simply 1 level higher. There is a negate magic psionic power that works the same way.
I beleive have had a lot of success with psionics in my homebrew campaigns for several reasons.
1. I have a good understanding of how psionics work.
2. I have a high level of psionic integration in my campaigns. It is definately different than magic but, in my campaigns Psions are about as common as Sorcerers and Psychic warriors about as common as Paladins. Anytime I generate random treasure for encounters there is a 25% chance that any magic item will instead be generated as a psionic item instead.
3. My players get introduced to psionics by me instead of the other way around, and since they run into psionic createures and NPC's on a somewhat regular basis they spend some of their resources on ways to affect or defend against psionic foes. Some even multiclass into psionic classes themselves.
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I am very much interested in psionic races, as most of those are IP of WotC. My next campaign will be inspired by other planets in Golarion's system, so I'll use a lot of psionic and space-faring races, such as gythzerai, thri-kreen and loxi. I don't know about kreen, but the other two are IP of Wizards. One of the things that should be addressed by the Pathfinder Psionics Primer are new psi races.
I loved the psionics in the second edition
specialy in darksun where i was sometimes a player and other times a DM
Yes some powers were to extreme and if you ever got a natural 20 well you were so screwd
but the concept of psionics and the choice of powers were awsome
3.5 was not that good and powers were just there to mimic figthers,rangers and wizards it complitly lost its
creativity that made it unique.
I dont want to be a psichic warrior or a psion
i want to be a psionicist and chose my powers from diffrent lists not be forced to take one path
What Does Psionics Mean to You?
The Book of Nine Swords with its maneuvers and nearly magical effects
is cooler than the actual psychic warrior in 3.5
exept i would add a point based system like the new barbarian in pathfinder with fatigue points (base on the ability used for initiating the power) and a quick recovery system
Hit dice: D6 for mentalist (telepathic and clairsentience powers)
int based
Hit dice: D6 for Kinesist (kinetic and psychoportation powers)
Maybe Wis based
hit dice: D8 for metabolist(psychometabolic) Con based
(like in second edition you must have more powers in your primary disipline but are able to chose in other diciplines
I'm a fan of Psionics, but haven't had the chance to play one as a player character just as a DM. From what I have seen and used in my campaigns from 3.5 and heard of what was possible in 2nd AD&D I think I would like them to be unique like they once were but with the balance of 3.5.
I like Dark Sun as a campaign setting (feral halflings that are cannibals what's not to like about that?) and I want to see those races brought back and the setting as well. I think it would be great to play a Thri-kreen, a half-giant or a mule (sp?) from that setting. However, as far as the psionic classes goes, here are my thoughts from what I observed:
I like how psionic characters are capable to use the power of their mind to duplicate some effects like magic, but I always saw them more like a combination of a monk/wizard combined into one. If I'm not too far out of bounds to say Starcraft presents a race of psychic creatures the Protoss that is what I think would resemble a Psionic wielder.
Martial physcially yet a powerful mind that bends reality of the material plane to their will instead of using gestures, phrases and material components to use as a way to do it. I think all psionic characters should be able to wield this power without such hinderances all the time. One thing I did enjoy in 3.0 Psionics Handbook was the mental combat, which I was disappointed when it was removed in 3.5. I can understand why they did it but to me it just felt like they were making them more in-line with wizards and sorcerers.
I have to disagree though about having disciplines with individual powers being removed. I liked them greatly, it gave them a unique ability the other psions could not master directly without taking a feat to take that power. I think general powers, however; should be easier to obtain more of them. It was too limiting in both 3.0 and 3.5. I understand it was for balancing issues, but I think they could have done that by not allowing power points to up powers and the like. Too many times I saw a Telepath get away with murder just because they could either mind seed, mindwipe, or charm person through cranking their DC really high. Or in another case where a psychic warrior dumped most of his points to increase his AC with Inertial Armor up so high no one could even hope to hit him except on a nat 20. That needs to be watched closely I would recommend not happen.
And finally I don't really see psionic characters as chaotic characters. Any other alignment I can see but to me it would take more discipline then one that is chaotic in nature to master, but not as much as perhaps a monk. So maybe an alignment restriction like any non-chaotic may be a psychic character.
That for me is how you could get me to buy your product. Balance but with a unique build to them. Stand on par with XPH book but give them more abilities and powers they may learn, perhaps knowing all their main discipline powers for free, free psi-crystal for psions like 3.0, and not have powers be visible, need gestures, or components (except for a few that do something powerful like Thrall was in 3.0).
As for a deal breaker? Well if they can pump power DCs or other mechanics above and beyond hope of passing then that would be one. And if I don't get my Dark Sun races to play. ;)
That would be what I'm looking for from a psionic book if released.
Though psionics don't come up often in my games due to players dislike of the seperation of the mechanics when they do make an appearance (or when I'm not running) the class that generally comes in is the soulknife.
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... good sorcerer/psion comparison ...
I've been pondering your example, and I think it boils down to one fact: Psionic Meditation is too good. Under 3.5e, it's already almost a given that a psion will take it. Under Pathfinder rules, where feats are much more common, its an absolute no-brainer. The need for psionic focus and its expenditure is a good and flavorful way to throttle a psion's output. Psionic Meditation makes it too easy to get around that throttle.
Given that, here's a possible rewrite, split into two feats:
Battle Meditation
As a move action, whenever your would expend your psionic focus as part of an attack, you may immediately regain it.
Psionic Meditation
As a swift action, a power you are manifesting that requires expenditure of your psionic focus gains the additional augmentation: "Spend two power points to retain your psionic focus when manifesting this power."
Q: What does Psionics mean to you?
A: Telepathy; mind reading, mind control. Mind over matter; mental augmentation of yourself and the matter around you (which I guess could be a very wide area of abilities including creating objects and setting people on fire).
Q: How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
A: Set up psionics so it is balanced if I have one character with psionic powers, while running one of the Adventure Paths, and I don’t have to replace half the creatures the PCs would have faced with psionic creatures.
Q: What is an absolute deal-breaker?
A: I am tempted to write many things here, but there are so many things that I want. Missing any single one is not a deal breaker for me, but if you get enough of the things right in my mind I will be happy to use it.
Random thought I have on psionics at this moment put in the spoiler because I don’t think it has an effect on the questions the thread asked.
My suggestions at this moment would be to use the system as it is, but alter all the damage dealing powers so that their damage scales with manifester level. To offset this boost in power, the damage would cap like magic spells, but the powers could have augments that increase the maximum damage the power could deal.
Also I would suggest that the ability to use your high level powers over and over, novaing, should be somewhat blocked by the system. That way the whole responsibility for controlling the psion’s output is not placed onto the DM’s shoulders. One example of what this might be is, “After manifesting a power by spending power points greater than or equal to the unaugmented cost of the psion’s highest level power (minimum 3 power points), the maximum number of power points a manifester can spend on a power drops by one until the manifester rests and regains their power points.
... good sorcerer/psion comparison ...I've been pondering your example, and I think it boils down to one fact: Psionic Meditation is too good. Under 3.5e, it's already almost a given that a psion will take it. Under Pathfinder rules, where feats are much more common, its an absolute no-brainer. The need for psionic focus and its expenditure is a good and flavorful way to throttle a psion's output. Psionic Meditation makes it too easy to get around that throttle.
Given that, here's a possible rewrite, split into two feats:
Battle Meditation
As a move action, whenever your would expend your psionic focus as part of an attack, you may immediately regain it.Psionic Meditation
As a swift action, a power you are manifesting that requires expenditure of your psionic focus gains the additional augmentation: "Spend two power points to retain your psionic focus when manifesting this power."
That looks interesting pair of feats. You might be correct about Psionic Meditation. But just because psions almost always take Psionic Meditation may not mean the feat is broken.
Characters that rely on their crossbow similarly almost always take Rapid Reload because of the large amount of benefit it gives to that character. It doesn't mean necessarily that Rapid Reload is too good. In the same way characters that like to expend their focus multiple times per battle would be likely take Psionic Meditation just because they would gain the benefit so often.
Please do not include Psionics in anything except clearly labeled Psionics material. I played with psionics once... ONCE!
Um, you do realize that psionics is mentioned explicitly over twenty times in the 3.5 Monster Manual, right?
Please do not include Psionics in anything except clearly labeled Psionics material. I played with psionics once... ONCE!Um, you do realize that psionics is mentioned explicitly over twenty times in the 3.5 Monster Manual, right?
Yes I do realize that. I'm not going to completely ignore a product that has Psionics in it. I would just rather not use Psionics at all. A Psionics handbook I can easily not purchase, but if a significant portion of the content of book/adventure requires that I have the Psionics Handbook, then I'm not going to use the book/adventure at all.
If enough of the Pathfinder audience likes Psionics then I completely understand putting out material to support it. However, I would appreciate the content to be easy to adapt or provide non-Psionic equivalents for the non-Psionics campaigns.
Psion
Quickened energy wave: 14d6+14
Energy wave: 20d6+20Requires: Two feats: psionic meditation (as well as its prerequisites) and quicken power
Per Round Cost: 40 power points; standard action, move action, swift action.Damage (not taking into account DC increases, area, range): 34d6+34
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Sorcerer
Quickened shout: 15d6
Meteor swarm: 24d6Requires: One feats: quicken spell
Per Round Cost: Two 9th level spell slots; standard action, swift action.Damage (not taking into account deafening, area, range, or being pelted with rocks): 39d6
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Damage: (per target, assumed no resistances, failed saves)
Sorcerer average: 136.5 per round
Psion average: 153 per round
If you really want to compare damaging spells, the sorcerer could use an Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball for 30d6 damage instead of Meteor Swarm. That brings the sorcerer up to 157.5 damage.
But I will concede that psions have the edge in creating one powerful damaging effect (overchanneling an Empowered Energy Missile power, for instance). The lowly sorcerer is stuck with second-class spells on his list like Mass Charm Monster, Polymorph Any Object, Maze, Forcecage and Gate. Poor guy... :~(
I liked the 3.5e Psionics, although some of their powers were just overpowered. Probably one of the bigger problems was also that they had not limits with casting. No armor, grapple or being gagged or in chains could stop them. You even could not take their holy symbol to stop them.
Some type of adventures were just not viable to play with psionics, and DMs had to create enemies that knew how to counter Psionics specifically.
That kind of got boring if every adventure was like that.
Also the ability to go Nova for 1-2 fights per day was also a problem.
This created a problem for DMs who needed to up the stakes (and make life difficult for other players) and the adventuring day was made even shorter then with a wizard. This also asked for adventures designed to counter Nova Psionics.
So a group with a psionic party member had to adapt to the play style of that psionic PC. That was a bad design.
If you plan to make your Psionics try to fix these problems. Also please avoid classes like Wilder (crap class, no powers and just blast, blast, blast) which was worse then a 3.5 fighter in gameplay options, or Thrall PRC.
The disciplines of 3.5e Psionics were a great idea but even more specialization was needed. Not just in what power was accessible to who but also what each of them could do with such powers.
I think Psionics is a great group of classes where you can try out the great design of 4e (just not for wizards): at-will, encounter and daily powers.
Or maybe even better try to incorporate some of the ideas from SWSE system for Force Powers. I use that for Psionics in my Starcraft Setting and I think it works great.
Also the ability to go Nova for 1-2 fights per day was also a problem.
I honestly don't get this. Yes, a psion can use all of his power points in two fights. Similarly, a sorcerer can use all of his spell slots in two fights. I consider that a player issue, not a psionics vs. magic issue.
Also the ability to go Nova for 1-2 fights per day was also a problem.I honestly don't get this. Yes, a psion can use all of his power points in two fights. Similarly, a sorcerer can use all of his spell slots in two fights. I consider that a player issue, not a psionics vs. magic issue.
A high level Sorcerer has a large number of spells available. Expending those at a rate of one per round, those would have to be two very long fights before the Sorcerer is fully empty. A Psion, however, can if fact be completely drained, and nothing more than a commoner with a crystal fetish after two 5-round fights.
For PCs, you're absolutely right that it's a player problem. With NPCs, especially villians, they aren't going to be alive after the fight, so why hold back? The evil Psion becomes a much more dangerous threat to the party than an equal-level evil wizard.
A high level Sorcerer has a large number of spells available. Expending those at a rate of one per round, those would have to be two very long fights before the Sorcerer is fully empty. A Psion, however, can if fact be completely drained, and nothing more than a commoner with a crystal fetish after two 5-round fights.Also the ability to go Nova for 1-2 fights per day was also a problem.I honestly don't get this. Yes, a psion can use all of his power points in two fights. Similarly, a sorcerer can use all of his spell slots in two fights. I consider that a player issue, not a psionics vs. magic issue.
That's my point -- the fact that a high-level sorcerer still has spell slots left after 10 rounds of casting his best spells makes him stronger than a psion, not weaker!
That's my point -- the fact that a high-level sorcerer still has spell slots left after 10 rounds of casting his best spells makes him stronger than a psion, not weaker!
That depends on if the Sorceror is a PC or a villain.
That's my point -- the fact that a high-level sorcerer still has spell slots left after 10 rounds of casting his best spells makes him stronger than a psion, not weaker!That depends on if the Sorceror is a PC or a villain.
Please explain.
James explained it fairly well here:
Take this for example: An evil psion NPC has NO GAME REASON to throttle his PSP use. He can unleash all of his PSPs on the party as 9th level spells, since he's only going to be in the game for one combat; he doesn't have to hold back to save points for later. Against a party of psionic characters, the psionic characters realize this and match his power output. Against a party of non-psionic characters, they'll quickly be outclassed. If they can survive until the psion enemy runs out of PSPs, they can crush him, but that's unlikely since the water pressure in the psion NPC's firehose remains at 100% until the end, whereas each round the non-psion PCs continue, their pressure is reducing.
If the metaphor for "winning the combat" is "who can empty their tank first," the psion wins because each round that progresses, he keeps emptying the pool at a constant rate of 100% of capacity, whereas the non-core...
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I vote to update the existing 3.5 ruleset to Pathfinder RPG. As a player and DM that never used psionics before that edition, I love the system, and think it meshes with Vancian spellcasting while still being unique. While Paizo could produce an absolutely fabulous new ruleset for psionics, I don't see the existing system as requiring an overhaul.
EPIC, on the other hand...