Just announced—it's our Gen Con 2011 release, and it will be previewed at the PaizoCon 2011 banquet.

The cover image is a mockup, and will probably change slightly before it's finalized, though it does use the correct cover art.

Samurai and gunslinger? Sweet.

Really excited about this.

My hovercraft is truly full of eels.

Is it August yet?!

Is it August yet?!

Not yet—maybe if you keep hitting F5, though...

Looks like the bullet list header calls this Ultimate Magic instead of Ultimate Combat.

Gunslinger! GUNMAGE! NINJA! I want this NOW!!!!!!!!

Looks like the bullet list header calls this Ultimate Magic instead of Ultimate Combat.

Doh. Fixed.

gunslinger!!!!! so long pile of pachworked 3rd party gun rules! hello hard cover gun gold!!!!!

Kyle Baird wrote:

Is it August yet?!

Not yet—maybe if you keep hitting F5, though...

HAR! HAR! I'm already out of an F5 and F1 key.

Gunslinger/Ninja/Big Game Hunter Ranger. Mounted on a Rhino.

This is gonna be totally awesome.

Chris Ballard wrote:

Looks like the bullet list header calls this Ultimate Magic instead of Ultimate Combat.

Doh. Fixed.

My mistake...

Samurai, Ninja, and Gunslinger, awesome, new classes. Wait a minute I thought you guys said you were not going to have anymore base clases?

I'll be looking forward to the Samurai and Ninja.

May be one of the best books yet. This will make so many of the things pieced together from third party/house rules far less cumbersome. How much of it will be PFS legal?

Samurai, Ninja, and Gunslinger, awesome, new classes. Wait a minute I thought you guys said you were not going to have anymore base clases?

The ninja, samurai, and gunslinger, brand-new 20-level alternate classes specially designed to get the most out of combat.

Seems like they will be alternate classes like the Antipaladin.

Gunslinger and firearms.... I will probably be in the minority on this, but I'm not happy about that.

I'm surprised nobody has asked when the open playtest will be.

Well, time to go home—have a great weekend, everybody!

We certainly hope a majority of our fans don't dislike the gun elements of this book.

I thought the Samurai and Ninja were going to be in a Tian Xia book?

I myself don't like guns in any setting real or otherwise.

So... when can we look forward to playtests Vic?

OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD YUS!

Do we have a guarantee that this won't go the way of the 3.5 splatbooks?

I am disappointed that the ninja and samurai are going to be actual classes. Both can easily be archetypes, as a rogue and ninja are very similar, while the paladin and cavalier are both similar to the samurai. I fear adding more 20-level classes is going to clutter the class options, much like 3.5 was cluttered with its multitude of classes.

However, I have a great trust in Paizo and their developers. If they feel that both the Ninja and Samurai need their own classes then I look forward to seeing how they come out. I just hope they are not over shadowed by, or end up overshadowing, the martial and expert classes they are parallel to.

I am very excited for the vehicle combat, the alternate rules, and the new rules for the existing classes. I really, really want more archetypes, discoveries, talents, feats, and options for existing classes.

Rules for airship combat sends tingles up my spine.

I am up in the air with guns. I agree with their inclusion considering that there is a part of Golarion that uses them. I may only use them if I play in a setting or adventure path that has them as a big part of the story element.

Do we have a guarantee that this won't go the way of the 3.5 splatbooks?

What do you mean?

What's the difference between an alternate class and a core class? I could have sworn I heard Erik Mona say at last year's Paizocon Banquet that the Magus would be the last new class for a while.

Someone please clarify this. Class glut is pretty worrisome to me as it seemed to be a huge contributor to the decline of 3.5 in popularity and focus during its last years.

Tam

I am disappointed that the ninja and samurai are going to be actual classes. Both can easily be archetypes, as a rogue and ninja are very similar, while the paladin and cavalier are both similar to the samurai. I fear adding more 20-level classes is going to clutter the class options, much like 3.5 was cluttered with its multitude of classes.

However, I have a great trust in Paizo and their developers. If they feel that both the Ninja and Samurai need their own classes then I look forward to seeing how they come out. I just hope they are not over shadowed by, or end up overshadowing, the martial and expert classes they are parallel to.

I am very excited for the vehicle combat, the alternate rules, and the new rules for the existing classes. I really, really want more archetypes, discoveries, talents, feats, and options for existing classes.

Rules for airship combat sends tingles up my spine.

I am up in the air with guns. I agree with their inclusion considering that there is a part of Golarion that uses them. I may only use them if I play in a setting or adventure path that has them as a big part of the story element.

it says alternate class this likely means something like the anti paladin. so 80% of a base class but a biggervrewrite than an archetype

I'd probably get this for the Gunslinger alternate class if nothing else, but the other bits (like Inquisitor archetypes and new fun bits for Alchemists) are just making me salivate all the more. Blast you, Paizo, you'll suck my wallet dry!

I am loving everything about the announcement for this book.

Also, that cover is Bad Ass.

I'm surprised nobody has asked when the open playtest will be.

Well, time to go home—have a great weekend, everybody!

One week after Ultimate Magic is sent to the printer?

Seriously looking forward to this :)

Having high hopes at first when hearing this book was going to be done and seeing this preview now, my feelings are mixed as to whether or not I'll like the end product. Spells in this book are the biggest culprit. I was under the impression that was what Ultimate Magic was for. 60 new archetypes sounds a bit much as well as it's hard to make that many and have them all be of great quality.

Sorry for voicing the concern in an otherwise excited thread. I guess my biggest disappointment is reading the Ultimate Magic preview and seeing it is chock full of good stuff for all the spellcasting classes but nadda for the lowly fighter, rogue, or barbarian and then reading this and seeing a boatload of goodies in store for spellcasters in this book as well.

Having high hopes at first when hearing this book was going to be done and seeing this preview now, my feelings are mixed as to whether or not I'll like the end product. Spells in this book are the biggest culprit. I was under the impression that was what Ultimate Magic was for. 60 new archetypes sounds a bit much as well as it's hard to make that many and have them all be of great quality.

Sorry for voicing the concern in an otherwise excited thread. I guess my biggest disappointment is reading the Ultimate Magic preview and seeing it is chock full of good stuff for all the spellcasting classes but nadda for the lowly fighter, rogue, or barbarian and then reading this and seeing a boatload of goodies in store for spellcasters in this book as well.

I think the main thing to keep in mind here is that the fighter, rogue, barbarian, and cavalier do not engage in magical activity. Therefore, they have no place in Ultimate Magic. Spellcasting classes, however, DO engage in combat. It makes sense to me that they get at least some love here.

As far as 60 archetypes goes, there were 60+ in the APG and that was only for 11 classes. I don't think it's going to be as overwhelming as you think.

We certainly hope a majority of our fans don't dislike the gun elements of this book.

I thought James was the one who hated guns? Or did he just hate the wand rifle?

I know a friend of mine will go nuts for a gunslinger class. I wonder if you wouldn't mind hinting as to what classes these are the alternates of?

My favorite classes have always been the arcane casters, especially Sorcerers since the release of 3e D&D, and now even moreso with bloodlines in Pathfinder... but I think I'm more interested in this book than I am Ultimate Magic. The Magus hasn't really wowed me all that much in the playtests, but the Gunslinger has me intrigued... a bit nervous, given the previous (largely ineffective, IMO) rules for guns in Paizo releases thusfar, but intrigued none the less.

Mark Moreland wrote:

We certainly hope a majority of our fans don't dislike the gun elements of this book.

I thought James was the one who hated guns? Or did he just hate the wand rifle?

I know a friend of mine will go nuts for a gunslinger class. I wonder if you wouldn't mind hinting as to what classes these are the alternates of?

Well, the only question would seem to be about the Samurai. Probably Fighter-based, but..? Gunslinger is definitely Fighter-based, and Ninja pretty much has to be Rogue-based... or just maybe Monk. Swap out Flurry and Unarmed Strike for Sneak Attack?

sometime I wish you guys would not tell us about stuff so soon, I not good with anticipation.

Well, the only question would seem to be about the Samurai. Probably Fighter-based, but..? Gunslinger is definitely Fighter-based, and Ninja pretty much has to be Rogue-based... or just maybe Monk. Swap out Flurry and Unarmed Strike for Sneak Attack?

Fighter doesn't work so well as an alternate class. That is if they do what they did with anti-paladin. Alternate classes seem to be the standard class, with it's abilities applied in a new direction.

Bonus feats can already be applied to any weapon you want. Weapon training is pretty universal as well. Ranger might make more sense for gunslinger to be an alternate of.

Kvantum wrote:

Well, the only question would seem to be about the Samurai. Probably Fighter-based, but..? Gunslinger is definitely Fighter-based, and Ninja pretty much has to be Rogue-based... or just maybe Monk. Swap out Flurry and Unarmed Strike for Sneak Attack?

Fighter doesn't work so well as an alternate class. That is if they do what they did with anti-paladin. Alternate classes seem to be the standard class, with it's abilities applied in a new direction.

Bonus feats can already be applied to any weapon you want. Weapon training is pretty universal as well. Ranger might make more sense for gunslinger to be an alternate of.

Ranger? You'd have to get rid of everything but the combat feats... which basically would make them a Fighter variant.

And it says right above in the description "The gunslinger combines the fighter’s martial prowess with a new grit mechanic that allows her to pull off fantastic acts with a pistol or rifle..."

Maybe the Samurai is a variant Cavalier. "Armored Warrior with a Code of Honor" might be Paladin, I suppose, but that would be kind of weird Paladin having two separate and different variants.

sometime I wish you guys would not tell us about stuff so soon, I not good with anticipation.

-1

...

I see mention of hundreds of feats, and 0 spells. I am delighted! I hope this is not just an outside impression :)

I am disappointed that the ninja and samurai are going to be actual classes. Both can easily be archetypes, as a rogue and ninja are very similar, while the paladin and cavalier are both similar to the samurai. I fear adding more 20-level classes is going to clutter the class options, much like 3.5 was cluttered with its multitude of classes.

You and me both, huge dislike here.

Mark Moreland wrote:

We certainly hope a majority of our fans don't dislike the gun elements of this book.

I thought James was the one who hated guns? Or did he just hate the wand rifle?

I know a friend of mine will go nuts for a gunslinger class. I wonder if you wouldn't mind hinting as to what classes these are the alternates of?

I'm actually a fan of guns in fantasy games. I'm not a fan of them done in a way that feels anachronistic. The wand rifle feels weirdly anachronistic to me.

What's the difference between an alternate class and a core class? I could have sworn I heard Erik Mona say at last year's Paizocon Banquet that the Magus would be the last new class for a while.

Someone please clarify this. Class glut is pretty worrisome to me as it seemed to be a huge contributor to the decline of 3.5 in popularity and focus during its last years.

Tam

It's a pretty subtle difference, really, that almost counts as a philosophical difference as much as it is a game design difference. But here goes:

BASE CLASS: This is a class that features at its heart a unique ability, power, or method of doing something. That can be the ability to cast arcane spells from a spellbook, the ability to do sneak attacks, the ability to use bardic music, the ability to do alchemy stunts, or whatever. With each base class we build, it becomes tougher and tougher to come up with a new mechanic that helps to set that class apart. As far as multiclassing works, you can multiclass between any base class without restriction, because each class has its own basic shtick. You can't multiclass into the same base class though; you can't be a 1st level rogue and then multiclass into rogue and therefore gain 2d6 sneak attack at 2nd level instead of gaining evasion. That might seem obvious, but it's important to keep in mind when we move on to alternative classes.

ALTERNATE CLASSES: In earlier editions of this game, we might have called these "sub-classes." An alternate class does NOT have a significant new core ability. It's basically just a glorified archetype. The antipaladin is a great example; looking at the antipaladin, you can see that it basically functions the same way as a paladin. It has a smite ability, it has an ability to channel energy with its touch, and has an ability to put "riders" on that touch ability. It's different than the paladin, but it's also obviously just a VARIANT paladin. Technically, we could stat up ALL of the archetypes as alternate classes... but since most archetypes only swap out a few abilities, that'd kinda be a waste of space. Also... you can't multiclass from a class into that class's alternate class; you can't multiclass from paladin into antipaladin, for example (even if you ignore the alignment restrictions, you still can't; it's the same class).

We've pretty thoroughly explored the concept of new base classes and archetypes by now... but we haven't explored the concept of an alternate class beyond the antipaladin. With Ultimate Combat, we're exploring the concept three times, with the samurai, the ninja, and the gunslinger. (The gunslinger, actually, might morph into a full base class; guns are new enough of a concept to the game that that MIGHT be enough to justify a whole new class—we'll see.)

So while the difference between a base class and an alternate class might seem pedantic... there IS a difference. Whether or not the game and its players will accept more alternate classes, or whether folks will just treat things as if there's no difference between base classes and alternate classes... that's what Ultimate Combat will tell us.

CalebTGordan wrote:

I am disappointed that the ninja and samurai are going to be actual classes. Both can easily be archetypes, as a rogue and ninja are very similar, while the paladin and cavalier are both similar to the samurai. I fear adding more 20-level classes is going to clutter the class options, much like 3.5 was cluttered with its multitude of classes.

You and me both, huge dislike here.

Well... wait and see how we handle these classes. As I said in the previous post, an alternative class IS basically not much different than an archetype... they just swap out more abilities than most archetypes do, and we present them with those abilities already substituted in on the more familiar tables for the main class.

One thing we accomplish by doing this is that we artificially inflate the presence of that particular archetype to something more than that. In the case of the samurai and the ninja and the gunslinger... those are VERY popular concepts that, in our opinion, deserve having the spotlight shined on them a bit more than, say, the archetypes we listed in the APG.

(That said... were we doing the APG today, we might have approached a few of the more complex archetypes as alternate classes as well; the shaman druids come to mind in particular, as do the totem barbarians.)

This looks ambitious -- more so than the words of power system, magus class or anything else paizo has done to date, with the possible exception of retooling 3.5 into a new system.

I am really hopeful and almost scared at what this product can do or will do to paizo.

Fingers crossed though I am expecting great things.

Oh... and also worth pointing out...

Ultimate Combat is far from at the printer yet. If we decide that presenting the ninja and the samurai and the gunslinger as alternative classes isn't a good idea and that it'd be better to present them simply as normal archetypes... we'll do so. Feedback from customers will be a huge part of how we make that decision.

That said, having seen how these three look as alternative classes, I'm pretty excited about them. I hope you all will like them too, of course! :)

We certainly hope a majority of our fans don't dislike the gun elements of this book.

They are a major selling point for me. It seems people always forget the cardinal rule that the GM says what is and is not allowed in his or her game. If it does not fit the campaign then it does not exist. Problem solved. Thanks for expanding on an element many players and GMs will be happy to have from Paizo. Thanks again.

I'm mostly disappointed that two awaited classes/archetypes: the ninja and the samurai, are coming to us in this format instead of an oriental-themed book.

The combat-themed book is a great idea. Everyone loves ass-kicking. I just wish the oriental book had been done first.

Plus psionics.

The book looks like it will be a lot of fun, and have a lot of neat options. Being a fan of Eberron I look forward to rules of fighting in, on, and around moving vehicles of all types.

And as an observation of the cover art...it looks like the Samurai has been fighting off the horde of creatures when all of a sudden Valeros (based on his angle) has just exploded out of the snow. "OH YEAH!"