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Considering I set-up both firearms and vehicle tables for my homebrew, its nice to see that a standardized tableset is coming out for them. Also, this brings to my mind old memories and concepts. A Magus with guns? Gunmage archetype is mentioned I heard so one of my players will be thrilled to hear that.
I do have to agree with something previously stated. I feel that if there's to be more Magus Arcanas, they should just be added to Ultimate Magic. That's kiwy my opinion though. Either way I'll still be getting both books so add them to whichever book you prefer.
Kudos on the alternate classes as well.
and before Seeker says "ninjas shuld b archetyps, kthanxbai" (too late).
Yet that is what they made it..a better rogue archetype. Ya know as it a Ninja and all that.... an archetype is not awesome enough .
"The ninja blends the subterfuge of the rogue with high-flying martial arts and assassination techniques"
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and before Seeker says "ninjas shuld b archetyps, kthanxbai" (too late).Yet that is what they made it..a better rogue archetype. Ya know as it a Ninja and all that.... an archetype is not awesome enough .
"The ninja blends the subterfuge of the rogue with high-flying martial arts and assassination techniques"
Maybe it is not what you meant Seeker. But by what you wrote above it seems you are already stating as fact that the Paizo Ninja will be just better than the rogue systematically. If that is what you are saying where did you get your advance copy that is in your hands before the book is even fully written. If that is not what you are saying, ignore this post and move along.
Graywulfe
Eh James has already said they are better archetypes more or less. So 1: It is a rogue archetype and 2: It is better then other archetypes.
So yes it is better as it is a ninja... At lest that is how it sure sounds.
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For the record,
I am very interested to see the Ninja and Samurai as Alternate classes in the manner described by James in a previous post. Also, while I don't think the Gunslinger will see a lot of play in my groups, I am intrigued to see how it is worked out. I think in my groups gunslinger won't see much play just because we tend to focus more on the swords and sorcery style of game. That said I could be proven wrong and Gunslinger could see a ton of play in my groups.
Either way eager to see how these three classes, and frankly the entire book, work out.
Graywulfe
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Eh James has already said they are better archetypes more or less. So 1: It is a rogue archetype and 2: It is better then other archetypes.
So yes it is better as it is a ninja... At lest that is how it sure sounds.
Where did he say better? I saw that there would be more changes to class features, in a manner similar to the Anti-paladin, but never did I see the word better. Nor any word like it. Link me to where he says better or as far as I am concerned you are putting words in his mouth.
Graywulfe
Think what you like. They are archetypes but change even more stuff then normal archetypes..so more extensive archetypes. "Greater archetypes" where the others are "lesser" archetypes.
And why do they get this extra treatment? They are Asian concepts that must be better and more different then non Asian stuff.
Why must the Asian concepts get this new "more expansive archetypes" while non Asian concepts like the Swashbuckler, Scout,Skald,Arcane Duelist, Archivist,Shaman, Archers, weapon masters and a slew of other concepts just as strong get simple "lesser" archetypes?
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Eh James has already said they are better archetypes more or less. So 1: It is a rogue archetype and 2: It is better then other archetypes.
So yes it is better as it is a ninja... At lest that is how it sure sounds.
Where did he say better? I saw that there would be more changes to class features, in a manner similar to the Anti-paladin, but never did I see the word better. Nor any word like it. Link me to where he says better or as far as I am concerned you are putting words in his mouth.
Graywulfe
I just went back over the thread and read James's posts and he used the word BIGGER not BETTER. Where I come from bigger does not equal better. So please, Seeker, stop turning James saying bigger to better. There is a huge difference.
Graywulfe
I am insanely psyched about the gunslinger alternate class. Frankly, I'm sick of keeping track of a hundred different 3PP rules on firearms. An official rule set for firearms would be a godsend!
I'd buy the book for the firearms and dueling rules alone. The other stuff is just icing on the cake!
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I'm not quoting anything but I don't believe that the Ninja will be 'better' than other Rogue/Monk Archetypes. Number one reason being game balance: some of the APG Archetypes are very good, but even the stellar ones like the Zen Archer Monk can't really be considered to be strictly 'better' than the Base Monk. Since Archetypes can't ever be strictly 'better' than Base Classes, it would stand to reason that neither Archetypes nor Variant Classes could even be 'better' than eachother, or Base Classes.
In other words, if a Variant Class or Archetype of a Base Class ever becomes strictly better in every situation than the actual Base Class, Paizo screwed up, and will almost guaranteed publish errata for it. Considering the new balance between Base Classes and Prestige Classes, this same analogy holds true there as well.
What I believe was said by a member of the Paizo staff was that the Ninja, Gunsliger, and Samurai are all big enough figures in our cultural mythos and encountered commonly enough in games that they warrant Variant Classes, as opposed to Archetypes. This says nothing at all about the relevant power of the class, merely that there is more to go on, here.
I also can't fathom the hate towards 'Asian' Classes, nor the narrow-mindedness: the Monk is not somehow impossible to divest from 'Asian flavor'... did it not occur to anybody that before the APG came out the only way to make a Boxer or Pugilist decent was to make it a Monk? Do people somehow associate the Fighter as strictly a medieval knight as opposed to a viking warrior, tribal headhunter or (yes, even) samurai? Even when the samurai and ninja come out, they won't be tied to 'Asian' flavor any more than the Ranger is tied to being 'Robin Hood'.
It is eminently ok for you to decide that 'Asian' flavor, firearms, or other cosmetic things included in the book aren't for you, just as you probably already decided you would love or hate the Words of Power system in Complete Magic, or 'Wounds' system this book will likely have. But learn to separate the fluff and crunch!
For instance, you might not like firearms in your setting. But if you can't fathom any other fluff to dress up the Gunslinger in so that it fits into your worldview and a player who wants to try it can enjoy the mechanics, the problem probably isn't with this book...
I also can't fathom the hate towards 'Asian' Classes, nor the narrow-mindedness: the Monk is not somehow impossible to divest from 'Asian flavor'...
Yes it is. You only have the Asian weapons {which are really simple weapons given different states as they are Asian} Sure you can reskin it, but without house rules those weapons always will make a monk one flavor really.
I do not hate Asian stuff, I hate a fighter can be from any culture ever...except an Asian one, then we must have a new class to cover it. That is what I dislike, class are good enough for everything else..but need heavily modified to be "Asian" Which is beyond silly.
Anyhow I'll leave this thread.
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Actually, another example occurred to me, if anybody wants to know why Samurai, Ninja, and Gunslinger get to be Variant Classes and not Archetypes:
The only Variant Class we currently have is the Antipaladin. The reason I believe this exists is because it brings the Paladin, as a concept, full-circle.
Mechanically, a Paladin is a Charisma based prepared Divine caster/melee hybrid with many abilities specifically designed to be used against Evil creatures. This is accurate. What it fails to explain, however, is WHY the Paladin works in this fashion, or what they stand for. This is all covered by the 'fluff', including the Paladin's code of conduct. Since the code is by definition rather constricting and players by definition chafe at arbitrary boundaries and other people's rules, the obvious question is "what REALLY happens when Paladins fall?"
The Antipaladin answers this. We literally see this Archetypal character again and again in media as 'death knights', 'blackguards', etc. What happens when good goes bad.
Similarly, the Ninja should answer the question present in the Rogue... what happens when you go beyond human? Whether we see a 'real' supernatural Ninja or just a martial character with nearly superhuman powers of infiltration and a dark reputation, we should get a class that plays to a mindset way different that 'I kill the guys and take their stuff. Then I seduce the barmaid.'
The Ninja deserves to be a Variant Class because many players make Rogues that (while still identifiably being Rogues) are not the sort we see represented by the Base Class.
Think what you like. They are archetypes but change even more stuff then normal archetypes..so more extensive archetypes. "Greater archetypes" where the others are "lesser" archetypes.
And why do they get this extra treatment? They are Asian concepts that must be better and more different then non Asian stuff.
Why must the Asian concepts get this new "more expansive archetypes" while non Asian concepts like the Swashbuckler, Scout,Skald,Arcane Duelist, Archivist,Shaman, Archers, weapon masters and a slew of other concepts just as strong get simple "lesser" archetypes?
That's because the Asian archetypes are the Arians of archetypes.
...I don't know what you're complaining about without the actual classes in front of you. We have no idea how it will work out. There are plenty of full classes that nobody wants to play (Complete Warrior's Samurai, I'm looking at you).
Creative Director
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I think his complaint is that the Asian alternate classes seem to be getting a big spotlight just because they are Asian.
No...
They're getting a big spotlight because there's a long tradition of samurais and ninjas and gunslingers being beloved characters in movies, novels, comics, and the like. That's not something you can say about the majority of the various archetypes we've created.
I defy any gamer to watch "Seven Samurai" or "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly," for example, and not get inspired to make a character who does some of the awesome things that Toshiro Mifune or Clint Eastwood do in those movies.
Anyway... until the classes are out for folks to check out... no reason to panic yet! :)
You're fast there James ;) I only had that post up for half a minute before I reread seeker's last reply and decided I was being redundant.
I completely look forward to what's in the book regardless of what the classes or archtypes turn out to be. Maybe you'll even toss in a few of the more popular Round 2 entries from the RPG Superstar *wink wink nudge nudge*
Sidenote; "Seven Samurai" is one of the best movies. For those of you who may not know, it is also available on Netflix Instant Watch!
I love just reading the grocery list of items that will be in this book, Options are a big reason why I like pathfinder, but I also enjoy balance in the game system and if paizo can keep that up then they will keep getting my money.
I understand that some of this stuff isn't for certain ppl, but if you don't want it in your game then you don't have to allow it, and if you cant control it then you can be vocal about it in game, say you don't like guns but the rest of your group does well your character can be opposed to them.
As for the oriental classes being alternate classes, I think samurai will be a great alternate version of cavalier, and Ninja could be variant of monk or rogue.
As for the gunslinger, I hope it doesn't turn into another base class, it really isn't needed, In one of our current games we have a musketeer(weapon master) sure he can only squeeze off one attack a round, but that attack sure does count.
Last thing I feel that most people have forgotten the original intent of them, showing off the abilities of specialized groups, and training in game. I feel they are better suited as campaign specific items, not the needed class kits of old systems.
All in all keep up the good work Paizo
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Honestly, I don't give much about samurai, ninjas and katanas. I likely won't be using them much, but I think they should be in and there are zillions of people out there eager to play them.
What does make me happy is 60+ archetypes. Archetypes are the best addition to the game since, erm, kits in 2e. I really want to be able to tell my players that if they want to play a gladiator or Hemet Nesingwary, they will be a Fighter and a Ranger respectively, but with the archetype twist - instead of either burrowing thru splatbooks in search for a PrC or base class, or telling them "yeah, it's just a Fighter/Ranger, nothing special there".
*Big Happy Grin*
I also can't fathom the hate towards 'Asian' Classes, nor the narrow-mindedness: the Monk is not somehow impossible to divest from 'Asian flavor'...
Yes it is. You only have the Asian weapons {which are really simple weapons given different states as they are Asian} Sure you can reskin it, but without house rules those weapons always will make a monk one flavor really.
I do not hate Asian stuff, I hate a fighter can be from any culture ever...except an Asian one, then we must have a new class to cover it. That is what I dislike, class are good enough for everything else..but need heavily modified to be "Asian" Which is beyond silly.
Anyhow I'll leave this thread.
I do agree with Seeker in that the ninja and samurai probably could have been an archetype and that the ninja shouldn't be any better of a class then the rogue, I am willing to give Jason the benefit of the doubt that the alternate classes won't be better then the base classes.
Love the cover. Heck, I love all of the references to Runelords in recent products. (That's no samurai on the cover, BTW. He's a Rune Giant, and that scene is straight out of Xin Shalast.)
I'm in the pro-guns camp, and can't wait to see the gun rules . Is the gun-mage based on Iron Kingdoms?
Anyway, I totally can't wait!
Combination Feats? Finishing Moves? Looks interesting, what are they?
Gunslingers...
Gunmages..
Airship combat...
My response.
Love.
My response.[/url]
AGGH! Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!
But funny!
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This ,by the description,sounds like the first book I am not looking forward to. I love melee more than anything else and this seems off for some reason. Wouldn't ninja and samurai go better in the oriental book? I guess I thought of the combat book more like the opposite of ultimate magic with fighters and her magic lacking piers receiving the lions share. I admit this is gut reaction and the product isn't out exc. I just , the description seemed offputting. This opinion can totally be swayed and the book will be bought because paizo is BFF with my money.
In before Zaister says "You got your stinkin' Asia in my pure, clean western Eurpoean RPG" (on time) and before Seeker says "ninjas shuld b archetyps, kthanxbai" (too late).
Damn, I'm too late. :)
Any new Bard stuff? Bardic performance feats?
Bard archetypes?
Love books with optional rules, even if I never use them. Looking forward to this book. Really looking forward to the Ultimate sneak character book, or whatever you decide to call it.
One thing I really want to see in new classes, are classes that do not use magic at all. I like classes that don't use magic and characters who do not rely on magic. They use wit and skill to defeat their opponents. Just a request.
BTW, the more optional rules for a game, the better. It allows GM's to write for the type of setting they want. Go optional rules and optional classes. If you don't like them don't use them. If you are against the concept then don't use the concept. Putting Samurai and Ninja in a book is great. Some people want rules on how to do them in a nonGolarion setting. I love pathfinder, not big on Golarion, though Kingmaker kicks ass. Just my humble opinion.
The more rules that allow for the creation of varied settings is great. I want rule systems that can do Fantasy as well as Scifi, as well as Urban Arcana. Just what I want in an RPG.
The more rules that allow for the creation of varied settings is great. I want rule systems that can do Fantasy as well as Scifi, as well as Urban Arcana. Just what I want in an RPG.
+1. This is why I loved Unearthed Arcana in 3.5.
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I'm mostly disappointed that two awaited classes/archetypes: the ninja and the samurai, are coming to us in this format instead of an oriental-themed book.
The combat-themed book is a great idea. Everyone loves ass-kicking. I just wish the oriental book had been done first.
Plus psionics.
The oriental themed book is going to be Golarion based, I suspect Paizo wanted to present the classes in a setting neutral book.
The advantage of theses classes being in a non-oriental book is that GMs (like me) who aren't interested in an oriental book will get the information and be able to support players who want to play a samurai or a ninja. I would honestly would prefer they spend the space on something else but tolerate it because I have players who want those classes.
The furor over Gunslingers, Ninjas and Samurais is such a non-issue for me. Alternate = optional. If they don't fit my campaign, they don't get used. I do allow monks, but I came at them from a much different angle than their being an "Asian" class. But from what I've read already makes me excited about the rest of the content.
While I'm very happy with the book's content so far, I'd REALLY love to see a swashbuckler/light-armored fighter (archetype or alternate class).
While I'm very happy with the book's content so far, I'd REALLY love to see a swashbuckler/light-armored fighter (archetype or alternate class).
+1 (doesn't have to be swashbucklery so much as a light-armored fighter).
I wonder though... will there ever be alternate class archetypes? Or is that like splitting hairs?
I'm curious mainly because, if ninja and samurai are alternate classes, I can see a ton of directions both could take. A "kuji-kuri" ninja for the Naruto crowd, a Musashi Miyamoto-inspired "katana/wakazashi" samurai, etc.
Agreed. Curious to hear the response to this.
I'm on the side of the fence that want Ninja and Samurai should be BASE CLASSES.
Sorry if that feels grinding on some peoples' nerves, but they truly should have their own abilities, mostly based on supernatural abilities. As I have explained on another thread, the Ninja and Samurai should be more like the Final Fantasy archetypes. If you played FF Tactics and FFXI, you'll understand what I mean.
For Ninja, clearly give it things similiar to Monk and Rogue, but there're plenty of things to give them to make them class worthy, such as Hide in Plain Sight, Death Attack, ki powers more related to stealth, illusion, and death, etc. In fact, why not combine the Rogue Talents with Ki Power mechanic of the Monk? (basically like the Magus Arcana, too) There's a list of Ninja powers, you pick them as you increase in level, and they cost ki points to activate.
For the Samurai, plenty of weapon techniques. You slash with your blade and release a wave of energy. Your katana ignites with flame. You make a kiai shout and increase your physical powers. Mounted Combat for free, 4 skill points, bonus feats, ancestral daisho similiar to Rokugan's daisho rules. Basically, they, too, should have Ki Powers like a Monk, only heavily martial-oriented abilities. Samurai Powers are chosen and then they cost ki points to activate.
I see, as James has explained, they are Alternate Classes similiar to the Antipaladin. I'm not a fan, but I guess it's the best compromise we're going to get between those that want full classes of Ninja and Samurai and those that want them to be puny little archetypes.
And, for the Gunslinger, PLEASE make it a FULL CLASS! It...sounds like its own thing, completely different than any other. It could be a Fighter archetype but...I think it can do more than that.
But, I must say, if you go the Alternate Class or Base Class route with these 3, I'll still be happy.
I suggest the 1st playtest be the new classes.
I think his complaint is that the Asian alternate classes seem to be getting a big spotlight just because they are Asian.
No...
They're getting a big spotlight because there's a long tradition of samurais and ninjas and gunslingers being beloved characters in movies, novels, comics, and the like. That's not something you can say about the majority of the various archetypes we've created.
I defy any gamer to watch "Seven Samurai" or "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly," for example, and not get inspired to make a character who does some of the awesome things that Toshiro Mifune or Clint Eastwood do in those movies.
Anyway... until the classes are out for folks to check out... no reason to panic yet! :)
Other awesome gunslinger types is Christian Bale's character in "Equilibrium" and Antonio Banderas in "Desperado" and "Once Upon a Time in Mexico". I really do have agree that it might be best for it evolve into a full class, considering the approach, its specific niche, and the use of Pathfinder's own gun mechanics.
As a sidenote, I doubt it'll happen, but seeing Ninja and Samurai as alternate or base classes would be better than mere archetypes. I also believe they both need supernatural elements. Leave the nonsupernatural elements to the folks that want to play Fighters and Rogue, but I believe Ninja and Samurai should be distinct from those two in that regard. Asian myth and culture is steeped in supernatural lore and powers, and Japan has embraced that in their media entertainment. While I don't think fantasy Tabletop RPG should have Samurai based on the anime "Sengoku Basara" nor do I think Ninja should be like "Naruto", if you look at FF Tactics and FFXI Ninja and Samurai, the old 1e classes, and build from there, you might see what I mean.
an alternative class IS basically not much different than an archetype... they just swap out more abilities than most archetypes do, and we present them with those abilities already substituted in on the more familiar tables for the main class.
Ignore the naysayers, this is exactly how these should be done imo.
Very keen to see how the ninja comes out as an (hopefully) alternate monk class!
I really want the Ninja, Samurai, and Gunslinger to be base classes. I might live with them being alternate classes but never just arch types.
It seems 90% of the discussion is revolving around 10% of the content... so:
- "...including martial arts feat trees"; wow, I'm eager to see how these will turn out!
- "...finishing moves"; how will they work? Sounds interesting (thinking about Mortal Combat right now...)
- "...combination feats"; what are they?
- It seems feat selection will become even harder, even for fighters. There are already so many interesting feats in Corebook + APG, now hundreds more are coming... oh my!
- "A complete system covering vehicle combat..."; I hope this includes rules for war chariots?
I'm quite excited about this book!
P.S. The cover looks great; yet again Mr. Reynolds delivers a great piece of art!
It seems 90% of the discussion is revolving around 10% of the content... so:
- "A complete system covering vehicle combat..."; I hope this includes rules for war chariots?
Ooh! Ooh! Chariot races!!
Dear Mr. Jacobs, wouldn't the cover art make for a beautiful blog post? (hint)
I really want the Ninja, Samurai, and Gunslinger to be base classes. I might live with them being alternate classes but never just arch types.
+1
Hundreds of new feats = Awesome
New base/alternate classes = Awesome
Vehicle combat = interesting
Optional combat rules like called shots = Awesome
New character options for 14 classes = Awesome
and everthing else = cool
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I like the planned contents of this book. I'd be okay with the gunslinger becoming a base class if the grit mechanic warrents the upgrade.
I'm very happy to see PF exanding to more on another culture (Asian) and including fully supported rules for gun. And the other extra rules and optional rules sound ground. Expirmenting with AC deflecting damage is a big change to PF and one I'm interested in seeing.
I think adding in vehicle rules is a good idea as well. The book won't just expand existing options but also create entirely new options. Options that for me will be quite useful.