Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Combat (OGL)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Combat (OGL)
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Seize the initiative and chop your foes to pieces with this exhaustive guide to the art of martial combat in this exciting new rulebook for the smash-hit Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, suitable for players and Game Masters alike!

This comprehensive 256-page hardcover reference reveals the martial secrets of the Pathfinder RPG rules like never before! Tons of new tricks and techniques for combat-oriented character classes put a sharp edge on your weapons and a sure step in your tactics, ranging from new barbarian rage powers, new cavalier orders, tons of new rogue talents, and more than 60 new archetypes for nearly every Pathfinder RPG character class, including spellcasters like wizards and clerics.

Ultimate Combat also introduces three new Pathfinder RPG classes: the ninja, samurai, and gunslinger! The ninja blends the subterfuge of the rogue with high-flying martial arts and assassination techniques. The samurai is an unstoppable armored warrior who lives by a strong code of honor—with or without a master. The gunslinger combines the fighter's martial prowess with a new grit mechanic that allows her to pull off fantastic acts with a pistol or rifle. All this plus tons of new armor and weapons, a complete treatment of firearms in the Pathfinder RPG, a vast array of martial arts, finishing moves, vehicle combat, duels, and new combat-oriented spells for every spellcasting class in the game!

Ultimate Combat includes:

  • New player character options for 14 Pathfinder RPG base classes, including alchemist discoveries, barbarian rage powers, cavalier orders, combat-cleric archetypes, animal shaman druids, new fighter archetypes like gladiator and armor master, inquisitor archetypes like witch-hunter or spellbreaker, combat-themed magus arcana, monk archetypes based on mastery of martial arts, new paladin archetypes like angelic warrior, ranger archetypes like big game hunter and trapper, new rogue tricks, and wizard archetypes like the gunmage
  • The ninja, samurai, and gunslinger, brand-new 20-level alternate classes specially designed to get the most out of combat
  • Hundreds of new combat-oriented feats including martial arts feat trees, finishing moves, and combination feats
  • In-depth overviews on a variety of combat-related topics, such as armor, Asian weapons, duels, fighting schools, guns, siege weapons, and more
  • A complete system covering vehicle combat, including wagons, boats, airships, and more
  • Tons of optional combat rules like called shots, armor as damage reduction, and new ways to track character health
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-359-0

Errata
Last Updated - 8/20/2015

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3.50/5 (based on 41 ratings)

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Ultimate eastern and guns

2/5

I had wrote a quite lengthy review but the system ate it so here are the highlights:
1) The book is all about asian stuff and guns.
2) Don't buy it if you don't like either stuff.
3) The book has a lot good spells.
4) Most of the asian stuff mechanics work.
5) Gun rules don't work most of the times in APs and modules (they can't handle guns at mid+ levels).
6) The book had quite a few editing issues when it first came out, second printing corrected most of them but not all.
7) The art is superb.
8) Even if you don't like guns and eastern stuff you should buy the pdf since the price of the pdf is very good and you should get some use out it.


More Options ! more fighting, ... MORE !

5/5

flavorful options, powerful options
classes, archetypes, feats...

while 100% of the boook might not please you, you want this book.

having the choice to build flavorful PC with the right options is priceless (and for this book, you have...)


great reference book

4/5

Great reference book that helps further explain combat rules but it is not without its flaws.


Helping to close the caster/everyone else gap

4/5

Raise your hand if you play or run melee classes. Barbarians, Fighters, Monks, Rogues, Paladins, pretty much anything without 9 levels of spells. Is your hand raised?

Now look around. Does the person next to you NOT have their hand raised? No they don't? Quickly! Use your raised hand to smack them in the face! Ha! Now you've shown the pansy finger wigglers the power of combat characters. Now make them go away so you can read your reviews in peace.

Ultimate Combat serves some great functions in the scope of the PF:RPG.

It helps bring non-casters a little more in line with the potential power of casters in the metagame by adding a slew of new feats and archtypes directly relevant to them. How much milage you get from these may vary, but lest you think they're all just blow off concepts, I know for certainty at least 1 Magus, 1 Monk, and 1 Inquistor archtype from this book that are definitely considered competative for 'best build to get the most out of this class' in the guides and discussions I've read on the Paizo forums, and they added some Bard ones that are just interestingly different (Try the archeologist bard if you want to play a bard/rogue cross. Try to resist the temptation to use a whip... or don't. ;) )

The spells section brings about some new toys for all casters but it did try and keep a combat focus, that was nice for the 4 and 6 spell level casters. If you're a Paladin or Inquisitor look into the new Litany line you'll probably find something you like, as will most other classes.

The Gunslinger is an interesting addition to the core classes and I think a positive one because it adds a new dynamic to how combat can work, and does a good job putting firearms in a magical setting that could allow them. If they're not your cup of tea it's easy to just dissallow them in your campaign or keep their rarity higher, but if you're playing in PFS/Golarion it's good to have in case you want to travel to regions they're thematic for.

The Asian inspired new classes, the Samurai and Ninja, are also positive additions. Some debate arises with the Ninja, it truly does do what the Rogue does only some solid arguements can be made it does it better, I know several players who now build "Rogues" using the Ninja class. However looking at the current metagame of Pathfinder Rogues were often much malagined as one of the least powerful classes, I'm not going to fault Paizo for offering a potential alterantive that rocks!

Rounding out the book it offers some rules and stats on siege weapons and warfare, and expanded vehicle rules and vehicle combat rules, along with dozens of new weapons and armor. The first two can really assist a GM, and the last gives you options from different places (asian themed) and times (stone age, bronze age, for example).

I can't give this book 5 stars, Ultimate Magic was a bit better, and it's not on par with what the APG did, but in the end what is it? It's a solid 4. Unless you play just casters and only casters you probably won't be dissappointed, because it's a solid book that does what you want it to do, and you'll feel like the money was worth it 9 times out of 10.


1/5

Ultimate? Combat?

Neither of the words in the title really apply to this book. Ultimate Monk or Piecemail Combat fit much better. Overall, this book is about as good as Ultimate Magic. A lot of material that is useless (or unfinished/untested) that only applies to a class or two, and there is a lot of material that seems artificially injected to fill space, but really only further highlights the Ultimate Combat material that is not present.

All Classes will find something in this book, mostly poor, but there are a few gems. Sadly, I think that the writers forgot that this was suppossed to be a Combat themed book. Monk gets about 500% more than everyone else (combined?) Many of the Archtypes are pretty good, solid options, but still some classes get a lot and some get a few, and it tends to be the same Classes that get few and the same Classes that get many.

A lot of good spells, (that makes Ultimate Magic even more worthless), but I' starting to really question Paizo's ideas of balance and understanding the lines between Arcane/Divine, amongst other things. A lot of Magus and Paladin love, as well as Monks (yes Monks), but not too much for Combat focused Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers, and Oracles.

If there where a 0 Stars option, I would pick that, simply because this is the absolute wrong way to go with a Hardcover "core" book. If they would drop the Asian themed stuff, and maybe the Monk-Onlyish Feats, this would have been a nice little softcover book, and maybe worth the price.


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Lantern Lodge

Considering I set-up both firearms and vehicle tables for my homebrew, its nice to see that a standardized tableset is coming out for them. Also, this brings to my mind old memories and concepts. A Magus with guns? Gunmage archetype is mentioned I heard so one of my players will be thrilled to hear that.

I do have to agree with something previously stated. I feel that if there's to be more Magus Arcanas, they should just be added to Ultimate Magic. That's kiwy my opinion though. Either way I'll still be getting both books so add them to whichever book you prefer.

Kudos on the alternate classes as well.


Gorbacz wrote:
and before Seeker says "ninjas shuld b archetyps, kthanxbai" (too late).

Yet that is what they made it..a better rogue archetype. Ya know as it a Ninja and all that.... an archetype is not awesome enough .

"The ninja blends the subterfuge of the rogue with high-flying martial arts and assassination techniques"

Liberty's Edge

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
and before Seeker says "ninjas shuld b archetyps, kthanxbai" (too late).

Yet that is what they made it..a better rogue archetype. Ya know as it a Ninja and all that.... an archetype is not awesome enough .

"The ninja blends the subterfuge of the rogue with high-flying martial arts and assassination techniques"

Maybe it is not what you meant Seeker. But by what you wrote above it seems you are already stating as fact that the Paizo Ninja will be just better than the rogue systematically. If that is what you are saying where did you get your advance copy that is in your hands before the book is even fully written. If that is not what you are saying, ignore this post and move along.

Graywulfe


Eh James has already said they are better archetypes more or less. So 1: It is a rogue archetype and 2: It is better then other archetypes.

So yes it is better as it is a ninja... At lest that is how it sure sounds.

Liberty's Edge

For the record,

I am very interested to see the Ninja and Samurai as Alternate classes in the manner described by James in a previous post. Also, while I don't think the Gunslinger will see a lot of play in my groups, I am intrigued to see how it is worked out. I think in my groups gunslinger won't see much play just because we tend to focus more on the swords and sorcery style of game. That said I could be proven wrong and Gunslinger could see a ton of play in my groups.

Either way eager to see how these three classes, and frankly the entire book, work out.

Graywulfe

Liberty's Edge

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Eh James has already said they are better archetypes more or less. So 1: It is a rogue archetype and 2: It is better then other archetypes.

So yes it is better as it is a ninja... At lest that is how it sure sounds.

Where did he say better? I saw that there would be more changes to class features, in a manner similar to the Anti-paladin, but never did I see the word better. Nor any word like it. Link me to where he says better or as far as I am concerned you are putting words in his mouth.

Graywulfe


Think what you like. They are archetypes but change even more stuff then normal archetypes..so more extensive archetypes. "Greater archetypes" where the others are "lesser" archetypes.

And why do they get this extra treatment? They are Asian concepts that must be better and more different then non Asian stuff.

Why must the Asian concepts get this new "more expansive archetypes" while non Asian concepts like the Swashbuckler, Scout,Skald,Arcane Duelist, Archivist,Shaman, Archers, weapon masters and a slew of other concepts just as strong get simple "lesser" archetypes?

Liberty's Edge

graywulfe wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Eh James has already said they are better archetypes more or less. So 1: It is a rogue archetype and 2: It is better then other archetypes.

So yes it is better as it is a ninja... At lest that is how it sure sounds.

Where did he say better? I saw that there would be more changes to class features, in a manner similar to the Anti-paladin, but never did I see the word better. Nor any word like it. Link me to where he says better or as far as I am concerned you are putting words in his mouth.

Graywulfe

I just went back over the thread and read James's posts and he used the word BIGGER not BETTER. Where I come from bigger does not equal better. So please, Seeker, stop turning James saying bigger to better. There is a huge difference.

Graywulfe


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I am insanely psyched about the gunslinger alternate class. Frankly, I'm sick of keeping track of a hundred different 3PP rules on firearms. An official rule set for firearms would be a godsend!

I'd buy the book for the firearms and dueling rules alone. The other stuff is just icing on the cake!

Dark Archive

I'm not quoting anything but I don't believe that the Ninja will be 'better' than other Rogue/Monk Archetypes. Number one reason being game balance: some of the APG Archetypes are very good, but even the stellar ones like the Zen Archer Monk can't really be considered to be strictly 'better' than the Base Monk. Since Archetypes can't ever be strictly 'better' than Base Classes, it would stand to reason that neither Archetypes nor Variant Classes could even be 'better' than eachother, or Base Classes.

In other words, if a Variant Class or Archetype of a Base Class ever becomes strictly better in every situation than the actual Base Class, Paizo screwed up, and will almost guaranteed publish errata for it. Considering the new balance between Base Classes and Prestige Classes, this same analogy holds true there as well.

What I believe was said by a member of the Paizo staff was that the Ninja, Gunsliger, and Samurai are all big enough figures in our cultural mythos and encountered commonly enough in games that they warrant Variant Classes, as opposed to Archetypes. This says nothing at all about the relevant power of the class, merely that there is more to go on, here.

I also can't fathom the hate towards 'Asian' Classes, nor the narrow-mindedness: the Monk is not somehow impossible to divest from 'Asian flavor'... did it not occur to anybody that before the APG came out the only way to make a Boxer or Pugilist decent was to make it a Monk? Do people somehow associate the Fighter as strictly a medieval knight as opposed to a viking warrior, tribal headhunter or (yes, even) samurai? Even when the samurai and ninja come out, they won't be tied to 'Asian' flavor any more than the Ranger is tied to being 'Robin Hood'.

It is eminently ok for you to decide that 'Asian' flavor, firearms, or other cosmetic things included in the book aren't for you, just as you probably already decided you would love or hate the Words of Power system in Complete Magic, or 'Wounds' system this book will likely have. But learn to separate the fluff and crunch!

For instance, you might not like firearms in your setting. But if you can't fathom any other fluff to dress up the Gunslinger in so that it fits into your worldview and a player who wants to try it can enjoy the mechanics, the problem probably isn't with this book...


Ninten wrote:


I also can't fathom the hate towards 'Asian' Classes, nor the narrow-mindedness: the Monk is not somehow impossible to divest from 'Asian flavor'...

Yes it is. You only have the Asian weapons {which are really simple weapons given different states as they are Asian} Sure you can reskin it, but without house rules those weapons always will make a monk one flavor really.

I do not hate Asian stuff, I hate a fighter can be from any culture ever...except an Asian one, then we must have a new class to cover it. That is what I dislike, class are good enough for everything else..but need heavily modified to be "Asian" Which is beyond silly.

Anyhow I'll leave this thread.

Dark Archive

Actually, another example occurred to me, if anybody wants to know why Samurai, Ninja, and Gunslinger get to be Variant Classes and not Archetypes:

The only Variant Class we currently have is the Antipaladin. The reason I believe this exists is because it brings the Paladin, as a concept, full-circle.

Mechanically, a Paladin is a Charisma based prepared Divine caster/melee hybrid with many abilities specifically designed to be used against Evil creatures. This is accurate. What it fails to explain, however, is WHY the Paladin works in this fashion, or what they stand for. This is all covered by the 'fluff', including the Paladin's code of conduct. Since the code is by definition rather constricting and players by definition chafe at arbitrary boundaries and other people's rules, the obvious question is "what REALLY happens when Paladins fall?"

The Antipaladin answers this. We literally see this Archetypal character again and again in media as 'death knights', 'blackguards', etc. What happens when good goes bad.

Similarly, the Ninja should answer the question present in the Rogue... what happens when you go beyond human? Whether we see a 'real' supernatural Ninja or just a martial character with nearly superhuman powers of infiltration and a dark reputation, we should get a class that plays to a mindset way different that 'I kill the guys and take their stuff. Then I seduce the barmaid.'

The Ninja deserves to be a Variant Class because many players make Rogues that (while still identifiably being Rogues) are not the sort we see represented by the Base Class.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Think what you like. They are archetypes but change even more stuff then normal archetypes..so more extensive archetypes. "Greater archetypes" where the others are "lesser" archetypes.

And why do they get this extra treatment? They are Asian concepts that must be better and more different then non Asian stuff.

Why must the Asian concepts get this new "more expansive archetypes" while non Asian concepts like the Swashbuckler, Scout,Skald,Arcane Duelist, Archivist,Shaman, Archers, weapon masters and a slew of other concepts just as strong get simple "lesser" archetypes?

That's because the Asian archetypes are the Arians of archetypes.

...I don't know what you're complaining about without the actual classes in front of you. We have no idea how it will work out. There are plenty of full classes that nobody wants to play (Complete Warrior's Samurai, I'm looking at you).

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

I think his complaint is that the Asian alternate classes seem to be getting a big spotlight just because they are Asian.

No...

They're getting a big spotlight because there's a long tradition of samurais and ninjas and gunslingers being beloved characters in movies, novels, comics, and the like. That's not something you can say about the majority of the various archetypes we've created.

I defy any gamer to watch "Seven Samurai" or "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly," for example, and not get inspired to make a character who does some of the awesome things that Toshiro Mifune or Clint Eastwood do in those movies.

Anyway... until the classes are out for folks to check out... no reason to panic yet! :)

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

You're fast there James ;) I only had that post up for half a minute before I reread seeker's last reply and decided I was being redundant.

I completely look forward to what's in the book regardless of what the classes or archtypes turn out to be. Maybe you'll even toss in a few of the more popular Round 2 entries from the RPG Superstar *wink wink nudge nudge*

Sidenote; "Seven Samurai" is one of the best movies. For those of you who may not know, it is also available on Netflix Instant Watch!


I love just reading the grocery list of items that will be in this book, Options are a big reason why I like pathfinder, but I also enjoy balance in the game system and if paizo can keep that up then they will keep getting my money.

I understand that some of this stuff isn't for certain ppl, but if you don't want it in your game then you don't have to allow it, and if you cant control it then you can be vocal about it in game, say you don't like guns but the rest of your group does well your character can be opposed to them.

As for the oriental classes being alternate classes, I think samurai will be a great alternate version of cavalier, and Ninja could be variant of monk or rogue.

As for the gunslinger, I hope it doesn't turn into another base class, it really isn't needed, In one of our current games we have a musketeer(weapon master) sure he can only squeeze off one attack a round, but that attack sure does count.

Last thing I feel that most people have forgotten the original intent of them, showing off the abilities of specialized groups, and training in game. I feel they are better suited as campaign specific items, not the needed class kits of old systems.

All in all keep up the good work Paizo

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Honestly, I don't give much about samurai, ninjas and katanas. I likely won't be using them much, but I think they should be in and there are zillions of people out there eager to play them.

What does make me happy is 60+ archetypes. Archetypes are the best addition to the game since, erm, kits in 2e. I really want to be able to tell my players that if they want to play a gladiator or Hemet Nesingwary, they will be a Fighter and a Ranger respectively, but with the archetype twist - instead of either burrowing thru splatbooks in search for a PrC or base class, or telling them "yeah, it's just a Fighter/Ranger, nothing special there".


*Big Happy Grin*

Lantern Lodge

Flynn Alfe wrote:
*Big Happy Grin*

Best and most agreeable response yet.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Ninten wrote:


I also can't fathom the hate towards 'Asian' Classes, nor the narrow-mindedness: the Monk is not somehow impossible to divest from 'Asian flavor'...

Yes it is. You only have the Asian weapons {which are really simple weapons given different states as they are Asian} Sure you can reskin it, but without house rules those weapons always will make a monk one flavor really.

I do not hate Asian stuff, I hate a fighter can be from any culture ever...except an Asian one, then we must have a new class to cover it. That is what I dislike, class are good enough for everything else..but need heavily modified to be "Asian" Which is beyond silly.

Anyhow I'll leave this thread.

I do agree with Seeker in that the ninja and samurai probably could have been an archetype and that the ninja shouldn't be any better of a class then the rogue, I am willing to give Jason the benefit of the doubt that the alternate classes won't be better then the base classes.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Love the cover. Heck, I love all of the references to Runelords in recent products. (That's no samurai on the cover, BTW. He's a Rune Giant, and that scene is straight out of Xin Shalast.)

I'm in the pro-guns camp, and can't wait to see the gun rules . Is the gun-mage based on Iron Kingdoms?

Anyway, I totally can't wait!

Silver Crusade

Gunslingers...
Gunmages..
Airship combat...
My response.


Combination Feats? Finishing Moves? Looks interesting, what are they?


N. Jolly wrote:

Gunslingers...

Gunmages..
Airship combat...
My response.

Love.


N. Jolly wrote:
My response.[/url]

AGGH! Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

But funny!

Liberty's Edge

This ,by the description,sounds like the first book I am not looking forward to. I love melee more than anything else and this seems off for some reason. Wouldn't ninja and samurai go better in the oriental book? I guess I thought of the combat book more like the opposite of ultimate magic with fighters and her magic lacking piers receiving the lions share. I admit this is gut reaction and the product isn't out exc. I just , the description seemed offputting. This opinion can totally be swayed and the book will be bought because paizo is BFF with my money.

Liberty's Edge

Saw Mona,s post about reasoning behind inclusion of Sam and ninja
. Understood.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
In before Zaister says "You got your stinkin' Asia in my pure, clean western Eurpoean RPG" (on time) and before Seeker says "ninjas shuld b archetyps, kthanxbai" (too late).

Damn, I'm too late. :)


Any new Bard stuff? Bardic performance feats?
Bard archetypes?


Love books with optional rules, even if I never use them. Looking forward to this book. Really looking forward to the Ultimate sneak character book, or whatever you decide to call it.

One thing I really want to see in new classes, are classes that do not use magic at all. I like classes that don't use magic and characters who do not rely on magic. They use wit and skill to defeat their opponents. Just a request.

BTW, the more optional rules for a game, the better. It allows GM's to write for the type of setting they want. Go optional rules and optional classes. If you don't like them don't use them. If you are against the concept then don't use the concept. Putting Samurai and Ninja in a book is great. Some people want rules on how to do them in a nonGolarion setting. I love pathfinder, not big on Golarion, though Kingmaker kicks ass. Just my humble opinion.

The more rules that allow for the creation of varied settings is great. I want rule systems that can do Fantasy as well as Scifi, as well as Urban Arcana. Just what I want in an RPG.


Arnwolf wrote:

The more rules that allow for the creation of varied settings is great. I want rule systems that can do Fantasy as well as Scifi, as well as Urban Arcana. Just what I want in an RPG.

+1. This is why I loved Unearthed Arcana in 3.5.

Shadow Lodge

Gururamalamaswami wrote:

I'm mostly disappointed that two awaited classes/archetypes: the ninja and the samurai, are coming to us in this format instead of an oriental-themed book.

The combat-themed book is a great idea. Everyone loves ass-kicking. I just wish the oriental book had been done first.

Plus psionics.

The oriental themed book is going to be Golarion based, I suspect Paizo wanted to present the classes in a setting neutral book.

The advantage of theses classes being in a non-oriental book is that GMs (like me) who aren't interested in an oriental book will get the information and be able to support players who want to play a samurai or a ninja. I would honestly would prefer they spend the space on something else but tolerate it because I have players who want those classes.

Liberty's Edge

I think this book feels more like a grab bag ala unearthed arcana. Dunno I don't mind anything by itself maybe it just a grouping thing. I LOVE the cover.


The furor over Gunslingers, Ninjas and Samurais is such a non-issue for me. Alternate = optional. If they don't fit my campaign, they don't get used. I do allow monks, but I came at them from a much different angle than their being an "Asian" class. But from what I've read already makes me excited about the rest of the content.


While I'm very happy with the book's content so far, I'd REALLY love to see a swashbuckler/light-armored fighter (archetype or alternate class).


Tzimiscedracul wrote:
While I'm very happy with the book's content so far, I'd REALLY love to see a swashbuckler/light-armored fighter (archetype or alternate class).

+1 (doesn't have to be swashbucklery so much as a light-armored fighter).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm most comfortable with ninjas/gunslingers/samurais as alternate classes. I thought the antipaladin rules in the APG were simple and elegant, and suspect these will be too.

I wonder though... will there ever be alternate class archetypes? Or is that like splitting hairs?

For example, perhaps a "demonologist" archetype for the antipaladin (which is itself already an alternate class of the paladin). It could replace the antipaladin's touch of corruption ability with the ability to take on fiendish characteristics.

I'm curious mainly because, if ninja and samurai are alternate classes, I can see a ton of directions both could take. A "kuji-kuri" ninja for the Naruto crowd, a Musashi Miyamoto-inspired "katana/wakazashi" samurai, etc.


Generic Villain wrote:

I wonder though... will there ever be alternate class archetypes? Or is that like splitting hairs?

I'm curious mainly because, if ninja and samurai are alternate classes, I can see a ton of directions both could take. A "kuji-kuri" ninja for the Naruto crowd, a Musashi Miyamoto-inspired "katana/wakazashi" samurai, etc.

Agreed. Curious to hear the response to this.


I'm on the side of the fence that want Ninja and Samurai should be BASE CLASSES.

Sorry if that feels grinding on some peoples' nerves, but they truly should have their own abilities, mostly based on supernatural abilities. As I have explained on another thread, the Ninja and Samurai should be more like the Final Fantasy archetypes. If you played FF Tactics and FFXI, you'll understand what I mean.

For Ninja, clearly give it things similiar to Monk and Rogue, but there're plenty of things to give them to make them class worthy, such as Hide in Plain Sight, Death Attack, ki powers more related to stealth, illusion, and death, etc. In fact, why not combine the Rogue Talents with Ki Power mechanic of the Monk? (basically like the Magus Arcana, too) There's a list of Ninja powers, you pick them as you increase in level, and they cost ki points to activate.

For the Samurai, plenty of weapon techniques. You slash with your blade and release a wave of energy. Your katana ignites with flame. You make a kiai shout and increase your physical powers. Mounted Combat for free, 4 skill points, bonus feats, ancestral daisho similiar to Rokugan's daisho rules. Basically, they, too, should have Ki Powers like a Monk, only heavily martial-oriented abilities. Samurai Powers are chosen and then they cost ki points to activate.

I see, as James has explained, they are Alternate Classes similiar to the Antipaladin. I'm not a fan, but I guess it's the best compromise we're going to get between those that want full classes of Ninja and Samurai and those that want them to be puny little archetypes.

And, for the Gunslinger, PLEASE make it a FULL CLASS! It...sounds like its own thing, completely different than any other. It could be a Fighter archetype but...I think it can do more than that.

But, I must say, if you go the Alternate Class or Base Class route with these 3, I'll still be happy.

I suggest the 1st playtest be the new classes.


James Jacobs wrote:
Scipion del Ferro wrote:

I think his complaint is that the Asian alternate classes seem to be getting a big spotlight just because they are Asian.

No...

They're getting a big spotlight because there's a long tradition of samurais and ninjas and gunslingers being beloved characters in movies, novels, comics, and the like. That's not something you can say about the majority of the various archetypes we've created.

I defy any gamer to watch "Seven Samurai" or "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly," for example, and not get inspired to make a character who does some of the awesome things that Toshiro Mifune or Clint Eastwood do in those movies.

Anyway... until the classes are out for folks to check out... no reason to panic yet! :)

Other awesome gunslinger types is Christian Bale's character in "Equilibrium" and Antonio Banderas in "Desperado" and "Once Upon a Time in Mexico". I really do have agree that it might be best for it evolve into a full class, considering the approach, its specific niche, and the use of Pathfinder's own gun mechanics.

As a sidenote, I doubt it'll happen, but seeing Ninja and Samurai as alternate or base classes would be better than mere archetypes. I also believe they both need supernatural elements. Leave the nonsupernatural elements to the folks that want to play Fighters and Rogue, but I believe Ninja and Samurai should be distinct from those two in that regard. Asian myth and culture is steeped in supernatural lore and powers, and Japan has embraced that in their media entertainment. While I don't think fantasy Tabletop RPG should have Samurai based on the anime "Sengoku Basara" nor do I think Ninja should be like "Naruto", if you look at FF Tactics and FFXI Ninja and Samurai, the old 1e classes, and build from there, you might see what I mean.


Quote:
an alternative class IS basically not much different than an archetype... they just swap out more abilities than most archetypes do, and we present them with those abilities already substituted in on the more familiar tables for the main class.

Ignore the naysayers, this is exactly how these should be done imo.

Very keen to see how the ninja comes out as an (hopefully) alternate monk class!


Well Paizo, I regret to inform you that.....

I'm sold on it, dunno when I'll be able to get it after its release...


I really want the Ninja, Samurai, and Gunslinger to be base classes. I might live with them being alternate classes but never just arch types.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It seems 90% of the discussion is revolving around 10% of the content... so:


  • "...including martial arts feat trees"; wow, I'm eager to see how these will turn out!
  • "...finishing moves"; how will they work? Sounds interesting (thinking about Mortal Combat right now...)
  • "...combination feats"; what are they?
  • It seems feat selection will become even harder, even for fighters. There are already so many interesting feats in Corebook + APG, now hundreds more are coming... oh my!
  • "A complete system covering vehicle combat..."; I hope this includes rules for war chariots?

I'm quite excited about this book!

P.S. The cover looks great; yet again Mr. Reynolds delivers a great piece of art!


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Zen79 wrote:

It seems 90% of the discussion is revolving around 10% of the content... so:


  • "A complete system covering vehicle combat..."; I hope this includes rules for war chariots?

Ooh! Ooh! Chariot races!!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Dear Mr. Jacobs, wouldn't the cover art make for a beautiful blog post? (hint)


Dragon78 wrote:
I really want the Ninja, Samurai, and Gunslinger to be base classes. I might live with them being alternate classes but never just arch types.

+1


Hundreds of new feats = Awesome

New base/alternate classes = Awesome

Vehicle combat = interesting

Optional combat rules like called shots = Awesome

New character options for 14 classes = Awesome

and everthing else = cool

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I like the planned contents of this book. I'd be okay with the gunslinger becoming a base class if the grit mechanic warrents the upgrade.

I'm very happy to see PF exanding to more on another culture (Asian) and including fully supported rules for gun. And the other extra rules and optional rules sound ground. Expirmenting with AC deflecting damage is a big change to PF and one I'm interested in seeing.

I think adding in vehicle rules is a good idea as well. The book won't just expand existing options but also create entirely new options. Options that for me will be quite useful.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Zen79 wrote:
Dear Mr. Jacobs, wouldn't the cover art make for a beautiful blog post? (hint)

I agree... but once a cover's released out into the world in the form of its product page, my interest in previewing the covers as a blog post drops close to zero, unfortunately.

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