Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Combat (OGL)

They are all part of Pathfinder. Use 'em if you want, ignore 'em if you don't.

+1. Sometimes I get the feeling that today's gamers take what's the rulebooks as LAW by Paizo instead of making the campaign they're own.

Guys, the REAL question is: what are the stats for katana and why it is/isn't a broadsword and why it is/isn't an exotic weapon.

That's where the fun part starts. All your alternate class/guns musings are just trifle nuisances compared to the ULTIMATE QUESTION: KATANAS.

Gunmage?

Better tell my group that an Outlaw Star themed campaign is almost inevitable now. :D

C'mon monk love...

And please let the Big Game Hunter archetype look like Saxton Hale and/or Theodore Roosevelt!

"A complete system covering vehicle combat, including wagons, boats, airships, and more "

YES

:D Gunslinger? So exciting.

:D Gunslinger? So exciting.

I don't know... I'm not entirely sure about a class built around throwing guns.

shyDM wrote:

:D Gunslinger? So exciting.

I don't know... I'm not entirely sure about a class built around throwing guns.

Silly, they're not throwing guns. That would be completely not viable.

What they do is use guns as ammo for halfling staff slings ! There can't be anything more humiliating than being hit by a pistol fired from a sling.

I love playing arcane casters more than any other classes, but I've got to say, I think I'm more excited about this book than Ultimate Magic.

There's always new material coming out for casters. New spells, new items, etc. But combat systems are woefully under-supported.

New rules for vehicle combat... martial arts... alternate class abilities focused on combat; all overdue.

Bravo!

(I still think that the samurai, unlike the ninja, deserves his own base class due to his unique code of ethics and fighting styles... but that's just me.)

(I still think that the samurai, unlike the ninja, deserves his own base class due to his unique code of ethics and fighting styles... but that's just me.)

Erm... unique code of ethics, you say?

Like a Cavalier order?

Fighting Style you say? Like several of the APG archetypes?

I'm so happy my wallet is cringing. I love the idea of the gunmage and gunslinger. Looks like Ultimate Magic and Combat get added to my collection.

I wouldn't get this book if I found out they made the Samurai and Ninja into just archtypes. I am tired of people complaining about this over and over, if they don't like it, don't use them, but do not ruin it for everyone who does want them as alternate or base classes.

As to what classes the Ninja and Samurai are alternates for...

As mentioned earlier, Samurai could be an alt for Paladins or Cavaliers. Strongly suspect(and hope) it's Cavalier. Paladin might offer the "mystical swordsman" element some might want out of the samurai class, but Cavalier seems to mesh much better with the historical mundane version. That an a variety of orders could provide options for people that want to play their Samurai not so heavy on the bushido.

Ninja? Rogue or monk. Could go either way, depending on what ninja tropes they decide to roll with(and there are a lot of them).

I actually like this approach, and I really hope we get more for other cultures: Subsaharan Africa, India, and the others that typically get left in the cold as far as RPGs have traditionally gone. Not complaining about Japan getting two alternate class reps. I just hope they're not the only one to get them.

Ninja and samurai as alternate classes works for me. My question (and I realize that it's very early in the development cycle, so things might change): What classes are they alternates of? Rogue-ninja and cavalier-samurai seem to be the most fitting to me.

As for the gunslinger, it actually seems different enough to me to possibly warrant it's own base class. Is it planned as a fighter alternate class?

As for Ultimate Magic, I'm more interested in the optional rules presented (and in the new feat concepts, I might add) than with the alternate classes - no axe to grind with asian themed ones, especially considering the forthcoming Jade Regent AP, but the gunslinger... thanks but no thanks.
More archetypes are welcomed though.

YES!!!

--- doing the happy dance ---

Mixed yeses, though.

Samurai = alt class. I'd still have preferred a full base class, but I'd already agreed with other posters elswhere that a Cavalier variant would work, and work well. Yes!

Ninja = alt class...not as YES! I wanted a true base class but hey, I still get a Ninja.

Gunslinger...hmmm...not so sure, we don't tend to guns in our fantasy, but it sounds kinda neat. Probably due to my preferences in video games [various FFs/Wizardry/M&M] I don't object to a *limited* amount of tech in use.

Gunmage...yay Outlaw Star! Can we hope for some Modern/Future rules as well?

--- starts saving up her cash ---

The book looks like it will be a lot of fun, and have a lot of neat options. Being a fan of Eberron I look forward to rules of fighting in, on, and around moving vehicles of all types.

And as an observation of the cover art...it looks like the Samurai has been fighting off the horde of creatures when all of a sudden Valeros (based on his angle) has just exploded out of the snow. "OH YEAH!"

Can you say DYNAMIC ENTRY!!

Actually, I remember Jason mentioning playtests for Ultimate Combat, as well as that it would too feature a new base class.

...I'm guessing the playtests would only start after Ultimate Magic releases... - but that would leave little time for the playtest to still affect the body of the product.

Could someone please enlighten me? Arigatou :)

I could be completely wrong, but if they offer the Samurai as an alternate of the Cavalier, it has the added benefit of being able to be used straight out of the book instead of requiring someone to reference the APG.

Not that they are likely to pick this book up if they don't want the APG, I'm just saying that it collects all of the "non-core" stuff together in an "alternate class" write up to be used from one place.

As a side note, I've known these books were coming out for a while now, but only once I start reading the contents does it really strike me that I am becoming fairly nervous about these things. I know Paizo needs to offer new stuff to sell people, but I have images of parties composed completely of "Ultimate" and "Advanced" archetyped/feated/alternated characters tearing through encounters that would have been a challenge for Core Rulebook characters.

I understand that some people are gifted optimizers, and that doesn't bother me so much as having so many options available that it doesn't take that much effort to optimize a character, so that the entire baseline of the game shifts.

Also, I understand not wanting alternate rules systems to be "on the fringe," but I still have to worry about the assumption that everything in the books is also potentially "on the table."

To reverse my above concern, if the APs, for example, start assuming everything in the books are fair game, and your players only want to use stuff from the Core Rulebook, or perhaps you only wish to do so, is that going to make the party into monster or NPC chow because they can't keep up with the options.

Maybe its just residual damage from 3.5, but my "bloat sense" is starting to go off.

I'm surprised nobody has asked when the open playtest will be.

Well, time to go home—have a great weekend, everybody!

So...ah...when will the open playtest be?

*wrings-hands-in-anticipation*

Maybe its just residual damage from 3.5, but my "bloat sense" is starting to go off.

This is one of my concerns as well.

Wow. There's a lot going on here that looks really neat:

The gunslinger's "grit mechanic" sounds amazing, and I can't wait to see how this is realized.

Really happy to see dueling rules and more fighting schools. This alone would sell the book for me, especially if the fighting schools are Golarion-centric.

Having played a big game hunter in Call of Cthulhu, I'm already fantasizing about this archetype, and I'm very interested in seeing how a trapper works. I've always hoped for a mechanic that would allow me to infiltrate dungeons and leave traps for baddies, so this could scratch an itch that's been around for a long time.

Vehicle combat could also be really neat, and I hope it doesn't get bogged down with an overly-complicated system.

"New ways to track character health" is intriguing, and I'm curious to see how this plays out.

I'm interested in seeing how Samurai and Ninja play out. Monks have been a viable option outside of Asian settings, but we'll see if even Paizo can incorporate these into regions outside of Tian Xia without making them seem tacked on. I would've been more excited for a wuxia-style flying swordsman, but I am intrigued.

My only disappointment was that when I saw this I thought we were going to see a whole slew of new product announcements and preorders. Hopefully this is just the first of many...

I kind of wanted archetypes for Samurai and Ninja, but I hadn't really considered that they would become alt-classes. The practical difference is word count... and that's it, right? The alt-classes will be self-contained, but will still be a Monk, Cavalier, or whatever the origin class is. So there's no difference at all, except that they'll take more room in the book.

As I'm thinking about it, I guess the other difference is that existing archetypes might not be applicable to the alt-classes if the class abilities that certain archetypes are based on are swapped out in the alt-class. That's true of stacking archetypes on archetypes already, though.

So, I'm rambling. The take-away: archetype equals alternate class in every way that matters. Thumbs up to alternate classes.

As a side note, I've known these books were coming out for a while now, but only once I start reading the contents does it really strike me that I am becoming fairly nervous about these things. I know Paizo needs to offer new stuff to sell people, but I have images of parties composed completely of "Ultimate" and "Advanced" archetyped/feated/alternated characters tearing through encounters that would have been a challenge for Core Rulebook characters.

I understand that some people are gifted optimizers, and that doesn't bother me so much as having so many options available that it doesn't take that much effort to optimize a character, so that the entire baseline of the game shifts.

Also, I understand not wanting alternate rules systems to be "on the fringe," but I still have to worry about the assumption that everything in the books is also potentially "on the table."

To reverse my above concern, if the APs, for example, start assuming everything in the books are fair game, and your players only want to use stuff from the Core Rulebook, or perhaps you only wish to do so, is that going to make the party into monster or NPC chow because they can't keep up with the options.

Maybe its just residual damage from 3.5, but my "bloat sense" is starting to go off.

I have a similar feeling, but Paizo has developed a reputation of being excellent developers. I feared that archetypes might make the core classes more powerful, but experience says that they are more often weaker. The new base classes in the APG are also on par or weaker then the core classes.

There is always risk when putting out new material, but it's has become clear that Paizo is experienced in handling those risks. That said, only time will tell how well they do in avoiding what happened with 3.5 and its class overload.

Now that I understand better that there are no real new classes, but alternate classes instead, I feel even more excited for this book. Thanks guys.

Fess up, the big game hunter is just there so you can use the rejected Mwangi Expanse picture from back when you were developing the Campaign Setting, right? ;)

YES!!!

--- doing the happy dance ---

Mixed yeses, though.

Samurai = alt class. I'd still have preferred a full base class, but I'd already agreed with other posters elswhere that a Cavalier variant would work, and work well. Yes!

Ninja = alt class...not as YES! I wanted a true base class but hey, I still get a Ninja.

Gunslinger...hmmm...not so sure, we don't tend to guns in our fantasy, but it sounds kinda neat. Probably due to my preferences in video games [various FFs/Wizardry/M&M] I don't object to a *limited* amount of tech in use.

Gunmage...yay Outlaw Star! Can we hope for some Modern/Future rules as well?

--- starts saving up her cash ---

Well, Paths of Power from 4WFG offers a Samurai base class, and we're working on two kinds of ninja - a historical based Shinobi, and the pop-culture, mystical Ninja (which we're trying to work on a better name for) - for Paths of Power 2, both as base class.

KnightErrantJR wrote:

Maybe its just residual damage from 3.5, but my "bloat sense" is starting to go off.

This is one of my concerns as well.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Even if Paizo keeps releasing new material, the rate at which they do so is maybe one core book every 2-3 months. Thats much slower than WotC, which occasionally releases two new hardbacks every month.

I see a lot to like in the description of this product and I hope it turns out better than we can imagine it to be. I can't wait to see all the new archetypes and other new mechanics for these classes such as discoveries, the gunmage, the witch-hunter, martial arts, new combat rules, cavalier orders, rogue tricks, guns, and fighting schools.

I like that the much-hotly-debated ninja and samurai classes are going to be alternate classes. It is a good compromise between those arguing for them to be archetypes and those arguing for them to be base classes. Since the description actually cites the rogue in the description of the ninja and the fighter in the description of the gunslinger, I think it is a fairly good guess that those are the classes they are alternates of.

While using the same logic that I used above for the other two alternate classes, I think that does not apply in the case of the samurai. The samurai mentions "warrior" in its descriptive sentence, but I believe that the word, "warrior", is only used in a general manner and is not specifically citing the Warrior NPC class. That would just be too lame a thing to do and I can't believe anyone at Paizo would do such a thing. I think it is more likely that this class is an alternate of the fighter, paladin, ranger, or cavalier. I believe the cavalier is the best choice, but if the designers wanted to emphasize a Will or Reflex saving throw for the class, then the paladin or ranger would be appropriate as well. I would love to see the samurai have something like the inquisitor's stalwart class ability and the good fortitude and will saves to go with it in addition to having the challenge and order class features.

Oh, one more thing... just to have someone come out and plainly ask - when is the playtest for Ultimate Combat?

WOW!

I gotta admit, I wasn't sure if I was even going to keep my RPG subscription after Ultimate Magic (I mean I'd just buy the new Bestiaries as they came out), I knew that Ultimate Combat was coming, but I wasn't sure it was something I wanted or "needed"... but with the news that we have 3 new alternate classes (and I LOVE absolutely LOVE that one is a gunslinger) I'm changing my mind to keeping my RPG subscription... I mean, HECK, they only come out every few months... I can take it...

Very excited about this hardcover now. (And I know several have asked, and after poor Vic has gone home for the weekend) but... when are the playtests for Ultimate Combat set to begin?

Regards,

Dean; The_Minstrel_Wyrm

I really looked forward for this book. I couldn´t be more disappointed.

Maybe my expectations were too high. I looked more for another classes (Swashbuckler alternate class for rogue? Scout alternate class for Ranger) - but maybe it´s just me who can´t stand this asian-touched classes. Don´t get me wrong. I love asia. I have a great part of my body covered in traditional japanese tattoos. Just don´t like them on the gametable (my players too, they even roll eyes when somebody new select to play a monk). I also share the opinion that they should just be archetypes. I just wished for something more western medieval and classical.

The only things who get me thrilled is this:
Tons of optional combat rules like called shots, armor as damage reduction, and new ways to track character health

I would like to see some maneuvers! Or a alternate Ftr class with maneuvers like the one from Book of 9 swords oder Iron heroes.

I looked more for another classes (Swashbuckler alternate class for rogue? Scout alternate class for Ranger)

Just want to point out those are already rogue archetypes..like the ninja should be IMO. Kinda sick of Asian classes and weapons that do the same thing and cover the same role as core and non core items we already have getting special treatment became..ya know they are Asian

Just my feeling. But somebody must satisfy all those manga loving gamers out there. It seems there is a big demand.

Asian weapons, finishing moves (sic), martial arts and the asian classes. A little bit too much of culture in a "generic" book about combat!

Why not making dervish a base class? Or assassin? Or american native tribewarrior?

It is bad enough the monk if forever default Asian because they allow allow Asian weapons {which are really simple weapons with Asian names}

What we have works for ever culture known to man..but Asian ones it seems.

Why not making dervish a base class? Or assassin? Or american native tribewarrior?

The dervish is covered in Inner Sea Primer, and the assassin obviously in core. I really do not want to see reprints for the sake of reprints.

Patrick Kropp wrote:

Why not making dervish a base class? Or assassin? Or american native tribewarrior?

The dervish is covered in Inner Sea Primer, and the assassin obviously in core. I really do not want to see reprints for the sake of reprints.

You missed the point there, skippy.

LoreKeeper wrote:

Patrick Kropp wrote:

Why not making dervish a base class? Or assassin? Or american native tribewarrior?

The dervish is covered in Inner Sea Primer, and the assassin obviously in core. I really do not want to see reprints for the sake of reprints.

You missed the point there, skippy.

What about the response that the alternate classes are just big archetypes?

Gunmage?

Better tell my group that an Outlaw Star themed campaign is almost inevitable now. :D

C'mon monk love...

And please let the Big Game Hunter archetype look like Saxton Hale and/or Theodore Roosevelt!

"A complete system covering vehicle combat, including wagons, boats, airships, and more "

YES

I'm hoping that there'll be an eventual prestige class that specializes in an Alkenstar style gunslinger. =)

What about the response that the alternate classes are just big archetypes?

Better archetypes for the Asian classes because they are just too awesome for normal archetypes every other culture and combat style gets. Because you know they are Asian after all.

I would like to see some maneuvers! Or a alternate Ftr class with maneuvers like the one from Book of 9 swords oder Iron heroes.

Personally, I would too. I lambasted BO9S for the longest time, but several months ago I started playing a Swordsage multiclassed character and I have to say I'm beginning to appreciate it a bit more.

I think this is going to be my last Pathfinder book.

Blazej wrote:

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

LoreKeeper wrote:

Patrick Kropp wrote:

Why not making dervish a base class? Or assassin? Or american native tribewarrior?

The dervish is covered in Inner Sea Primer, and the assassin obviously in core. I really do not want to see reprints for the sake of reprints.

You missed the point there, skippy.

What about the response that the alternate classes are just big archetypes?

Better archetypes for the Asian classes because they are just too awesome for normal archetypes every other culture and combat style gets. Because you know they are Asian after all.

Isn't that like saying "Better archetypes for the Anti-paladin and Gunslinger just because they are too awesome for normal archetypes ever other culture and combat style gets?" I am not certain how great the difference is, I mean, they could have made the Anti-paladin be an archetype just like any other. All it means is that it gets a chart and probably a picture.

Mikaze wrote:

shyDM wrote:

:D Gunslinger? So exciting.

I don't know... I'm not entirely sure about a class built around throwing guns.

Silly, they're not throwing guns. That would be completely not viable.

What they do is use guns as ammo for halfling staff slings ! There can't be anything more humiliating than being hit by a pistol fired from a sling.

psst... No one mention pistol-whipping and everything will be cool.

Isn't that like saying "Better archetypes for the Anti-paladin and Gunslinger just because they are too awesome for normal archetypes ever other culture and combat style gets?" I am not certain how great the difference is, I mean, they could have made the Anti-paladin be an archetype just like any other. All it means is that it gets a chart and probably a picture.

Yes it is saying just that. The anti-paladin was an evil version of a class where over 70% of your powers are good based. So just switching them over to evil does radically change the class. It has all the same stuff as a paladin but different changing every single ability..yeah that is a bit much and in this one instance justified

They seem to be giving these two classes ..which are just too awesome to be filled with an archetype all this based off well they are Asian. Mechanically we have a few classes that do what those do, but they are not awesome enough it seems.

I am not sure of the gunslinger, I feel the idea behind it does not justify a massive overhaul of a class when many classes can do very well with ranged weapons now. But the other two is pure {Asian so it must be better and totally different mechanically to do what you do} plain and simple.

I am glad some of you like it, but the Asian and better stuff is a real turn off for me.

Sounds very cool.

I could be completely wrong, but if they offer the Samurai as an alternate of the Cavalier, it has the added benefit of being able to be used straight out of the book instead of requiring someone to reference the APG.

Not that they are likely to pick this book up if they don't want the APG, I'm just saying that it collects all of the "non-core" stuff together in an "alternate class" write up to be used from one place.

Yeah you don't need the APG just this.

Oh yeah... And the Tian Xia book.

I think this is going to be my last Pathfinder book.

Because after getting Ultimate Combat you don't need any new book? :-)

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I think this is going to be my last Pathfinder book.

Because after getting Ultimate Combat you don't need any new book? :-)

Honestly, I don't need any new books NOW. I've been buying books out of customer loyalty more than anything for the last year or so.

Time for unreasonable pre-betatesting concerns and hopes:

-Too ambitious as someone said: 60 new archetypes, 3 variant classes, optional rules, feats...
-No new PrCs. I don't have any suggestion, but many of my players like PrCs, one or two PrCs would be welcome.
-Magus related stuff: I'm not really comfortable with Ultimate Combat having stuff for a new class that appears in Ultimate Magic, I know that it ships 4 months later, but I hope that UM gets relevants options for Magus and UC just a few new things. In other words, if you save Magus nice stuff for UC when it could be part of UM I will be disappointed.
-APG introduced the Gloves of Dueling: stackable +2 at/damage for Core Fighters, absolutely unexpensive for high level characters and using a slot which isn't very used by melee characters. Let's see if we can get similar stuff for other melee classes aswell, for balance.
-If we get new spells, please suggest that it is the DM who decides how to introduce them in the game, otherwise it seems that the developers want rangers and clerics to get new spells for their spell list for free instead of having to pay for research or even letting it in hands of the DM.
-About armors and magic items, if possible it would be great if you address an issue as old as 3rd Ed.: Variant Celestial Armors (Celestial Chain Shirts, C Full Plates, +5 Heavy Fortification Celestial Armors, etc..) . Almost every fighter/wizard, character with high Dex, and a few other characters, wants one.
It would be nice to have some new variants or armor special abilities with balanced prices that don't break the game.
-Everything else seems ok or awesome.

To reverse my above concern, if the APs, for example, start assuming everything in the books are fair game, and your players only want to use stuff from the Core Rulebook, or perhaps you only wish to do so, is that going to make the party into monster or NPC chow because they can't keep up with the options.

Not everything we put into our hardcover books will also be in Golarion.

As we continue to do hardcover books, this will probably become more and more apparent. Of course, we want the MAJORITY of the content in the hardcovers to support our Campaign Setting, but I'll be the first to admit that all of it is good for Golarion or, by extension, the APs.

This will be on my list of books to get. I look forward to see how Paizo treats firearms etc.

In before Zaister says "You got your stinkin' Asia in my pure, clean western Eurpoean RPG" (on time) and before Seeker says "ninjas shuld b archetyps, kthanxbai" (too late).