Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Combat (OGL)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Combat (OGL)
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Seize the initiative and chop your foes to pieces with this exhaustive guide to the art of martial combat in this exciting new rulebook for the smash-hit Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, suitable for players and Game Masters alike!

This comprehensive 256-page hardcover reference reveals the martial secrets of the Pathfinder RPG rules like never before! Tons of new tricks and techniques for combat-oriented character classes put a sharp edge on your weapons and a sure step in your tactics, ranging from new barbarian rage powers, new cavalier orders, tons of new rogue talents, and more than 60 new archetypes for nearly every Pathfinder RPG character class, including spellcasters like wizards and clerics.

Ultimate Combat also introduces three new Pathfinder RPG classes: the ninja, samurai, and gunslinger! The ninja blends the subterfuge of the rogue with high-flying martial arts and assassination techniques. The samurai is an unstoppable armored warrior who lives by a strong code of honor—with or without a master. The gunslinger combines the fighter's martial prowess with a new grit mechanic that allows her to pull off fantastic acts with a pistol or rifle. All this plus tons of new armor and weapons, a complete treatment of firearms in the Pathfinder RPG, a vast array of martial arts, finishing moves, vehicle combat, duels, and new combat-oriented spells for every spellcasting class in the game!

Ultimate Combat includes:

  • New player character options for 14 Pathfinder RPG base classes, including alchemist discoveries, barbarian rage powers, cavalier orders, combat-cleric archetypes, animal shaman druids, new fighter archetypes like gladiator and armor master, inquisitor archetypes like witch-hunter or spellbreaker, combat-themed magus arcana, monk archetypes based on mastery of martial arts, new paladin archetypes like angelic warrior, ranger archetypes like big game hunter and trapper, new rogue tricks, and wizard archetypes like the gunmage
  • The ninja, samurai, and gunslinger, brand-new 20-level alternate classes specially designed to get the most out of combat
  • Hundreds of new combat-oriented feats including martial arts feat trees, finishing moves, and combination feats
  • In-depth overviews on a variety of combat-related topics, such as armor, Asian weapons, duels, fighting schools, guns, siege weapons, and more
  • A complete system covering vehicle combat, including wagons, boats, airships, and more
  • Tons of optional combat rules like called shots, armor as damage reduction, and new ways to track character health
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-359-0

Errata
Last Updated - 8/20/2015

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3.50/5 (based on 41 ratings)

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Overall okay, but nothing special

2/5

Gunslinger - they gave alternative options for other classes to do basically the same thing & that's really good enough. A new class wasn't needed.
Unless you go into advanced firearms, guns kinda suck, but any reasonable GM will run in the setup where guns aren't insanely expensive so at least cost isn't the issue & thankfully they didn't do rules for effects of blackpowder smoke in a dungeon.

Ninja - okay as a Rogue variant. My only complaint is that Light Steps is a freebie stock class feature instead of a talent like it should. That aside, contrary to what some reviewers have said, the choice between Rogue & Ninja is depends on your preferences. Both classes can pick up eachother's talents & they gave Rogue a Ki Pool talent.
As for the weapons gap. The Katana in this book isn't OP, trading general damage potential for a surprisingly appropriate utilitarian function, when compared to previous versions of the weapon, so no big deal guys.

Samurai - not needed as a class. Give me options for Fighter & Cavalier, maybe Monk(maybe). Concept achieved.

Feats: Some are good. Some are mediocre. There are a few that are overly specialized, so they're iffy on their value for PCs.
-Monk styles. I looked this over & the qualities vary greatly. Half the styles are pretty good & the other half suck. Some of that could be preference, but that would require another option. The good ones offer up enough of a sampling to make some balanced styles of your own, which is really good. All in all, I like them.

Weapons - several of them are nice. I like what they did with Katana instead of making it re-flavored Bastardsword, though it does give less reason to favor it over Wakizashi, as that's a light weapon & Katana isn't & the damage gap is negligible. Guns are only viable if you have the right set of cost rules(the price varies depending on the rarity of guns in the world)

Class variants - there are some okay ones, but some seem to be just desperate attempts at filling space. A few of the variants appear to be incomplete, such as Martial Artist Monk still getting Abundant Step, but is incapable of actually using it. There are other examples of this sort of oversight & it's kinda disappointing.
I honestly would like to see some variants that just trade off particular class features only which would allow for a bit more character customization.

Overall, it's okay. Some things are incomplete & the balance is lacking in certain things. You can use it if you've got the sense to exclude the broken stuff. I'd recommend the PDF, but it's not something the average player should rush to get a hard copy of anytime soon, as the PDF can be replaced with a downloaded update. Hopefully, Paizo can get their act together & work on this.


A severe disappointment

1/5

There is not much here that I would use. The new classes and many of the archtypes were disappointing. Gunslinger needs serious work, mainly the weapons themselves. Thousands of gp for a gun, but they magically get one free? The samurai is a poor version of the cavalier, and the ninja is a rogue on steroids. Why didn't they simply upgrade the rogue to this level in the FIRST place?

Several of the feats were lackluster; I despise teamwork feats with a passion. The style feats might be worthwhile. A lot of the feats look like traps for inexperienced players.

Too many spells for a "Combat" book in my opinion. Especially since so little was given to martial classes in Ultimate Magic. And still, too many of these spells are either bad or simply "mass" versions of Core Rulebook spells.

Most of the alternate rules are a waste of space other than the alternate materials for weapons and armor, at least in my opinion. Still, this seems like the most valuable section of the book. There are many things that people could find of value in here like the "Called Shots" section.

Did I mention the typos? TONS of typos pop out with only a cursory glance. GET IT TOGETHER PAIZO! Your poor copy editing is ridiculous.

Still, at the very least this book deserves one star for the few good parts. Definitely a book to avoid though.


Good for what it is...

4/5

Let me start by saying that i bought this book as an excited and open minded GM. Overall the book features a lot of interesting new content(though some of it is fairly situational, more on that later). I was satisfied overall but i felt disappointed by somethings, that being said here,s a quick section by section review:

Chapter 1 "classes": I'm going to come right out and say that this chapter is why i bought the book, and i feel this is close to the books best section right behind the mastering combat section. First, the ever controversial gunslinger. I have personally been very open minded about guns in my campaign and have had 1 player being a gunslinger since the playtest was released. the gunslinger and his weapons are surprisingly well balanced( though i recommend determining prices based on what you feel is appropriate for your campaign, not using the books). The ninja on the otherhand does seem overpowered but can easily solved by simply disallowing them to take most rogue tricks and adding only what seems appropriate(believe the class has enough to stand alone). I liked the samurai the flavor and balance is right on, but I was disappointed that there were no included archetypes to steer it away from a mounted character if you wanted( I may have missed it though). Lastly there are a bunch of new archetypes and I was overall very pleased, though for players or GM's with an inclination toward high magic will obvoisly be disappointed(except maybe magus, really liked those).

Chapter 2 "feats": WOW! 200+ feats. i feel like thats enough said. I truthfully haven't been able to even look at them all( though i did just buy the book).

Chapter 3 "mastering combat": This is the golden chapter of this book. it is loaded with flavorful armors and details many asian weapons that are both unique and flavorful. Overall the firearms section of the chapter was decent but i had a real problem with the pricing and some of the guns statistics(namely the shotguns and the critical multipliers) The rest is equally nice if you have a place to use it but i don't so i just sort of skimmed it.

Chapeter 4 "Vehicles": Let me say this I don't use vehicles or seige engines normally but this section made me think about it for future adventures if not a mass inclusion later in my campaign world.

Chapter 5 "Variant rules": This section was unusual. I found myself hating things like armor as DR, but loving called shots( again for my soon to be thrilled gunslinger player who loves to say where hes aiming anyway). The idea of piecemeal armor also conjured ideas for an adventure or two centered around survival.

Chapter 6 "spells": A fairly nice assortment of low level spells but with high emphasis on combat. Sorry all you people who love being the archmage like super wizard not so much here for you.

Final thoughts: i am overall pleased with my purchase(though i kinda wish the book was cheaper for being only 253 pages compared to others buuut, whatever). Also the weapons in Chap. 3 are really spread out and all charted seperately but Paizo being as awesome and thoughtful as they are put all the charts in two pages in the back( like in the core rulebook)


Great for GMs, possibly a little much for players to be trusted with

4/5

As a DM, I see a lot of useful things I can use. As a player, it seems a little overwhelming. Overall, I like what I see. Some things look a little strong, some things look a little weak, and most of it looks crazy fun (and I am a fan of crazy fun). There are even some things in here that I've actually discussed with other players, both on and off line.

I give this product 4 stars for one particular reason: GMs are going to have to make some serious decisions on what to allow and disallow. This is great for custom tailoring campaigns, but it means that I (as GM) have to be a little more controlling than I like to be.


A great book overall

4/5

Ultimate Combat doesn't disappoint as core book. First off, the three new core classes: the Ninja is still a bit broken, but compared to how it used to be, it's far more balanced. The major problem I had with the invisibility tricks has been fixed and is now workable. The Gunslinger looks good and since it has been used in Playtest 2, I don't need to go too far into discussion about it. The Samurai...I had such high hopes they'd fix the Samurai, but sadly, it's just another Cavalier. The Kensai archetype for the Magus is closer to a Samurai than the actual Samurai.

As for the rest of the archetypes, the Monk gets the Martial Artist. Yes, he loses just about everything but three abilities, but the biggest trade is that he can be of any alignment. The Dervish for the Bard isn't bad as a archetype. I wasn't too impressed with any of the new Fighter archetypes, as many of the better ones in my opinion already came about in Advanced Player's Guide. The Pirate is what the Swashbuckler should have been, I think. It's not a great archetype, but it's pretty decent.

Now...a majority of the new feats are monk feats. There are some for clerics, fighters, rogues and the rest, but a good portion of them are designed in mind for a Monk. The new channel feat is pretty nice. Limited in it's usefulness, but nice. The section on dueling, called shots and vehicle combat are nice.

At the time of this writing, I haven't looked at any of the spells, so I really can't give an opinion about them.

However, this book still only gets a four. Why a four? Well, I was hoping for there to be some more prestige classes, aside from the ones in the APG. I do hope in the near future, we do get a book with some prestige classes that are setting neutral (but that's a discussion for somewhere else).

Still, this book is a must have for just about every table. It brings a whole new dimension to combat with called shots, vehicle combat and a whole slew of new archetypes and feats make Ultimate Combat a worthy purchase.


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Are butterfly swords going to be featured in these rules?

In general, how many more Asian weapons are to be featured to expand the selection beyond Japanese peasant/monk weapons?

It would be great if the urumi used in Kalarippayattu would feature. It would be a nice addition to Vudra characters.


The urumi is already in Pathfinder rules :)


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:


Our intent is to ship the Gen Con releases out so that they reach most US subscribers right around the time Gen Con begins.

Ugh. Was hoping to get it before I left for Gen Con.

Oh well, I plan to get two books anyways. One for signatures and the other for use. Guess I'll just have to use my 'signatures' book at the con.


LoreKeeper wrote:
The urumi is already in Pathfinder rules :)

Thanks for pointing it out. Haven't read the Inner Sea guide yet.

Still want butterfly swords, though! :)


Hobbun wrote:


Ugh. Was hoping to get it before I left for Gen Con.

Oh well, I plan to get two books anyways. One for signatures and the other for use. Guess I'll just have to use my 'signatures' book at the con.

Last year they set it up so you could pick up subscriptions at Gen Con and save on shipping. Hopefully they will do that again this year.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Tangible Delusions wrote:
Hobbun wrote:


Ugh. Was hoping to get it before I left for Gen Con.

Oh well, I plan to get two books anyways. One for signatures and the other for use. Guess I'll just have to use my 'signatures' book at the con.

Last year they set it up so you could pick up subscriptions at Gen Con and save on shipping. Hopefully they will do that again this year.

Hopefully that'll happen again this year... but we won't know until we have a better sense of delivery schedules.

Lantern Lodge

Here's a question appropriate to the thread:

In the PF Beta, the Barbarian was allotted a number of "Rage Points" which could be spent to power a rage and the abilities. Will we see the return of this (optional) system in Ultimate Combat or a Web Document?

I'd more suspect the latter, since existing powers would be a bit to collect entirely and assign, though the APG alternate abilities could just use the points cost of the powers they replaced.

Also, yes, I hear you all: "Barbarians and MATH?!?"

Just curious.


Alright, so I have to ask, and I'm sure it's been asked elsewhere, I lack the patience to sift through the threads and find it, but... Will there be an Ultimate Skills? Or something to that effect?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
DM Doom wrote:
Alright, so I have to ask, and I'm sure it's been asked elsewhere, I lack the patience to sift through the threads and find it, but... Will there be an Ultimate Skills? Or something to that effect?

It has been asked earlier in the thread, and the response was something akin to "there are no plans for such a book at this time."


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What about monks actually?
More background and information on hamatula and melekatha and their fighting styles would be great. maybe some archetypes on that.
perhaps even incorporate the ninja there. this could appiece a lot of people asking for ninja martial arts.


I'm dissapointed to see guns make their way into pathfinder. Modern, cyberpunk, sure... but not fantasy rp. They just don't belong.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

*sad face*

Silver Crusade

risdnalor wrote:
I'm dissapointed to see guns make their way into pathfinder. Modern, cyberpunk, sure... but not fantasy rp. They just don't belong.

Subjective.

Also, an optional class.


risdnalor wrote:
I'm dissapointed to see guns make their way into pathfinder. Modern, cyberpunk, sure... but not fantasy rp. They just don't belong.

If you think that guns don't belong in your game, the answer is very simple. Don't use them. Those of us who want to occasionally run a pirate campaign, or an alternate Earth game, will have the options we want, and you will not have lost anything except some pages in a book that you don't use.

I think firearms belong very well, as long as they are not a dominant technology.

I like the idea of hobgoblin muskets myself.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

There's also the fact that guns have always been in Pathfinder. Alkenstar has been a part of it from the beginning.

Contributor

risdnalor wrote:
I'm dissapointed to see guns make their way into pathfinder. Modern, cyberpunk, sure... but not fantasy rp. They just don't belong.

I guess you've never read Gary Gygax's section in the 1e AD&D DMG where he gives conversion rules for Boot Hill (a Western game) and Gamma World.


James Jacobs wrote:


But the rulebooks are used for far more game worlds than just Golarion, and the more they support ALL possible play styles, the stronger they''ll be overall. That's the theory, at least.

If they just supported Golarion and that's it, then the rulebooks wouldn't be presented as world neutral books.

THANK YOU!! I've nothing against Golarion, I'm sure that with all the talented people it has writing for it, it must be filled with awesome, but it's not the world I GM. About a year before D&D D20 3.0 came out I began running and crafting a fantasy campaign setting of my own and while I have played loads of other games/settings during the intervening years, I have GMed this world throughout those years. When D20 came out, my players and I migrated from 2nd Ed to 3E, then to 3.5E, and I'm now running my fifth long term campaign in my homebrew, this time using Pathfinder.

With every evolution of my setting, I've been VERY selective in what elements from the rules we're currently using gets incorporated into my game. After all, I'm steering the direction of my setting and every inclusion can potentially change the character of that world. I expect that I'll continue to use my setting for years to come with no guarantee that in 10 years time I'll be running it under Pathfinder, thus I GREATLY value the non-setting specific material in the base books.

Leave the world-specific material where it belongs, in the world books. One of the (few) nitpicks I had against the APG was that the Campaign Character Traits were presented in such a Golarion-specific manner, making them unusable in my campaign. I of course have been creating campaign traits for my setting, but a more setting-neutral approach in a setting-neutral book would have been preferred. I hope that the designers continue to remember that any RPG system must be usable in many settings, both homebrew'd and commercial, not just as the rules for its own house setting. Please continue to support those who enjoy worldbuilding as much as roleplaying.


I noticed that for ultimate combat it lists the infiltrator for the inquisitor and the ultimate magic thread blog that lsited the names of the archtypes also listed the infiltrator for the inquisitor.

which book is going to get it

Contributor

The infiltrator is in Ultimate Magic.

The description for a product is usually written over a month before we do the outline for the book. In the case of UC, the infiltrator sounded like a good idea, but when we did the outline we realized the infiltrator was slated for UM, so it was left out of the UC outline.


oh man... I did not want to get Ultimate Magic..... only UC


Mikaze wrote:
risdnalor wrote:
I'm dissapointed to see guns make their way into pathfinder. Modern, cyberpunk, sure... but not fantasy rp. They just don't belong.

Subjective.

Also, an optional class.

Many of you bring up excellent points. I knew it wasn't a "core" system, but I was viewing it from that perspective anyway. After consideration & contemplation I have changed my opinion and see where it could be a great thing under the right circumstance.

Options are good :)


Will Ultimate Combat feature a mass combat rules system?


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

I notice the ISB-number is still TBD. Any ETA on that?


Scipion del Ferro wrote:

You're fast there James ;) I only had that post up for half a minute before I reread seeker's last reply and decided I was being redundant.

I completely look forward to what's in the book regardless of what the classes or archtypes turn out to be. Maybe you'll even toss in a few of the more popular Round 2 entries from the RPG Superstar *wink wink nudge nudge*

Sidenote; "Seven Samurai" is one of the best movies. For those of you who may not know, it is also available on Netflix Instant Watch!

Truer words were never spoken. I've always wanted to make a character like Blondie or Angel Eyes. My DM knows this & told me asap that the pistol & rifles, although rare had made an appearance in the Pathfinder settings, which promptly brought me back into the fold of gaming again. I simply hope people take it for what its for, an amazing new resource of flavor that can be added to an existing campaign. Keep up the good work.

"Who's your huckleberry"
~Doc Holiday


Okay so, Ultimate Magic has shipped, and it gets one last preview next week.

After that are we going to start seeing previews for this book?

If so roll on the list of archetypes! I really want to see waht on offer. Especially alternative, non mounted cavaliers.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Oh God, I am so buying this at Gen Con

Scarab Sages

vagrant-poet wrote:

Okay so, Ultimate Magic has shipped, and it gets one last preview next week.

After that are we going to start seeing previews for this book?

If so roll on the list of archetypes! I really want to see waht on offer. Especially alternative, non mounted cavaliers.

Hear hear! Hound master cavalier! New orders!

Would actually love to see a build oriented around charging on foot or even Spring Attacking... Anime slashes for the Samurai and Cavalier.

Also, a Falconer would be epic... though I guess that's sort of a ranger thing, it has such a nobleman vibe to it.

Just... We can haz moar Cavalier?


Im holding off a campaign till this book comes out for my players .

Blackpowder weaponry is going to be a looming threat in the world i made (which is roughly based on the historical transitions between the age of bow and steel to the age of black powder).

except spice it up with magic and a technological revolution that has become a full blown arms war between the various nations of the world .

i love the idea that the players first encounter is against a pack of goblins with clanged up rusty muskets which have a 75% chance to misfire and are predominately used as clubs and makeshift spears ( knives tied to the barrel with cloth, wire or vines/twine) .

i also love the idea of massive siege warfare and i hope some rules will be made to spice that up some .

my brains a cranking .

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Hayato Ken wrote:

What about monks actually?

More background and information on hamatula and melekatha and their fighting styles would be great. maybe some archetypes on that.
perhaps even incorporate the ninja there. this could appiece a lot of people asking for ninja martial arts.

There is definitely going to be some cool monk stuff in this book.

That is all. :)


With all the complaints and whining on the Ninja forum, I fear this book will have one thing I'll extremely hate --- a nerfed Ninja class, or worse, a stupid Rogue archetype :(

Is Paizo planning to release the final draft of the Samurai and Ninja before going to print to clear up any messes? I, for sure, would like to see what they do for the Ninja before they run it, so they can make changes to it before they rile up a lot of angry Ninja fans.


@Razz: that is a silly statement: no matter how they approach it, there'll be angry ninja fans (and detractors). Why don't you simply have faith? The magus turned out awesome.


Razz wrote:

With all the complaints and whining on the Ninja forum, I fear this book will have one thing I'll extremely hate --- a nerfed Ninja class, or worse, a stupid Rogue archetype :(

Is Paizo planning to release the final draft of the Samurai and Ninja before going to print to clear up any messes? I, for sure, would like to see what they do for the Ninja before they run it, so they can make changes to it before they rile up a lot of angry Ninja fans.

as long as paizo just riles up the fans and not the ninjas i dont forsee a problem ^_^


My only gripe about this book is that from the product description of it, not only do wizards and sorcerers get combat-oriented archetypes (Wut), but also combat-oriented spells (Aren't most of them?)

Didn't casters just get a nice boost from UM? Do they really need more help from UC? Let's work on helping the meattanks with the tiny metal sticks do more than just move and attack (And any combination of those two options) before we help the squishy casters more.


Ashram wrote:

My only gripe about this book is that from the product description of it, not only do wizards and sorcerers get combat-oriented archetypes (Wut), but also combat-oriented spells (Aren't most of them?)

Didn't casters just get a nice boost from UM? Do they really need more help from UC? Let's work on helping the meattanks with the tiny metal sticks do more than just move and attack (And any combination of those two options) before we help the squishy casters more.

I agree here. If I see any significant caster stuff in a book about melee characters, I can't blame a lot of people claiming that this is a caster edition.

I suppose that spells for rangers, paladins, and arguably bards (being sort of a jack-of-all-trades) are somewhat acceptable, but wasn't that stuff supposed to be in the book specifically about magic?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The key thing for me is that Ultimate Magic should have options for everyone who is involved with Magic. That book did that job beautifully, even adding in some fun stuff for Monks.

On the same note, my expectation of a book called Ultimate Combat is that it should include options for everyone who is involved in combat. Which, essentially, is everyone. Therefore, this book's description is giving me nothing but positive vibes. Thanks, Paizo!


I am really looking forward to the armors acting as damage reduction, alternative HP system, and called shots. I hope we get a playtest soon =)

Grand Lodge

4look4rd wrote:
I am really looking forward to the armors acting as damage reduction, alternative HP system, and called shots. I hope we get a playtest soon =)

I believe the book as already gone to the printers. So no new playtest stuff will be out.


Joseph Wilson wrote:

The key thing for me is that Ultimate Magic should have options for everyone who is involved with Magic. That book did that job beautifully, even adding in some fun stuff for Monks.

On the same note, my expectation of a book called Ultimate Combat is that it should include options for everyone who is involved in combat. Which, essentially, is everyone. Therefore, this book's description is giving me nothing but positive vibes. Thanks, Paizo!

Still, the focus should be on melee characters in UC. Or should Paizo's next book be Ultimate Melee to differentiate everyone who doesn't have magic?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Ashram wrote:


Still, the focus should be on melee characters in UC. Or should Paizo's next book be Ultimate Melee to differentiate everyone who doesn't have magic?

No disrespect intended, but I guess I just don't understand where your expectations came from. This has been the product description for Ultimate Combat since it was first announced, months and months ago. There's never been any claim that this would be a melee-focused book. It sounds to me like, if anything, you should be starting a thread elsewhere on the forum stating a case for Paizo to make the product you're looking for. As it stands, the product description has exactly what I would want in a book called Ultimate Combat. But that's just my opinion.

The Exchange

Keep in mind the ninja and Samurai are being built like the Anti-Paladin. It just takes times to hash out the flavor differences. Honestly, besides ninja specific powers, they really ARE just very specific rogues.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Razz wrote:

With all the complaints and whining on the Ninja forum, I fear this book will have one thing I'll extremely hate --- a nerfed Ninja class, or worse, a stupid Rogue archetype :(

Is Paizo planning to release the final draft of the Samurai and Ninja before going to print to clear up any messes? I, for sure, would like to see what they do for the Ninja before they run it, so they can make changes to it before they rile up a lot of angry Ninja fans.

<shrug> I already promised my Ninja PC player that he could keep the playtest version for our running campaign, as it seemed well done and balanced to me. He also can use the finished version if he so likes, but it is up to him.

Liberty's Edge

I just hope it's not too late to throw out one more (among many) wishful request to change the name of the "Gunslinger" to something more genre appropriate, such as "Musketeer" or "Pistoleer." Pretty please?

Oh, and in regard to the Ninja, I'm in agreement with others lamentations here. From the preview, it looks like nothing that can't be handled with existing and new rogue talents, and a little archetype-building. I wonder if the "final product" will still pretend to be a separate class with the current mechanics, or if it will actually have a unique build.


Red Wullf wrote:

I just hope it's not too late to throw out one more (among many) wishful request to change the name of the "Gunslinger" to something more genre appropriate, such as "Musketeer" or "Pistoleer." Pretty please?

Oh, and in regard to the Ninja, I'm in agreement with others lamentations here. From the preview, it looks like nothing that can't be handled with existing and new rogue talents, and a little archetype-building. I wonder if the "final product" will still pretend to be a separate class with the current mechanics, or if it will actually have a unique build.

Muskets and pistols are indeed "guns" and later on the gunslinger can create revolvers and advanced rifles so its very much a gunslinger.

As for the ninja i hope it gets some love and becomes a full base class as it fits a role that it excels at in comparison to other classes (the silent assassin) .

but right now there is enough difference that it would be considered a alternate class (the ki pool and the ninja tricks as well as the base abilities) it follows the guidelines of the antipaladin for what a alternate class is 60% of a base classed gutted and reformatted in such a way that its easier than making it a alternate class.


I really don't understand those people who complain about guns in a fantasy setting. Fantasy means 'magic' and such exists in the setting, it doesn't mean 'middle ages but without technology'. Steampunk is fantasy, and there's guns. There's 'urban fantasy' which is set in a more modern period. There's historical fantasy.

Gunpowder and the advance of technology happens, even in 'fantasy' settings. Worlds evolve, and there should be nothing wrong with introducing gunpowder or any other advancements in society that we've seen.

Hell, if you're going with 'middle ages', hit some history books or the web, and look at what kind of technology existed in different parts of the world - you'll be surprised at what you can find.

Lantern Lodge

+1 to LaHaise's comment.

Moving beyond that, though I know my say isn't much unless everyone else agrees, but I'm still hoping for something more to come from the Ninja and Samurai. As is, the Ninja is almost good for being what it is, but I'd like to see it revised a little more to where it falls a bit more into balance. Maybe I missed something.

As for the Samurai, for me, personally, I don't see ANY difference between a Samurai and his alternate persona, the Cavalier. Maybe its just me, but I don't see enough there to warrant separating the two and I believe that there should be. Right now, I think I could just as easily create a Cavalier and call it a Samurai.

However! I am and always have been a Paizo supporter, so I know that when Ultimate Combat comes out, I doubt I'll be displeased.

I also hope you change the deeds to being selectable much like Rogue Talents, Magus Arcanas, Alchemist Discoveries, etc., as it would make the class so much more customizable for individuals. Three more months and I suppose I'll see.

Love the work you guys are doing, so thank you for the hard work.

Three cheers for Paizo anyone?


All this discussion about gunslingers and ninjas....Am I the only one excited for the vehicle combat rules? (AIRSHIPS!)


Nope, but then I'm excited about every bullet point in the product description. :D

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

I just really really really have my fingers crossed that they decided against making ninja a rogue archetype.

It's been stated on the boards that they were considering making it an archetype for no other reason than to prevent multiclassing with rogue, and that sort of rationale makes me a bit unhappy, as it's hard to justify for in-game reasons.


gbonehead wrote:

I just really really really have my fingers crossed that they decided against making ninja a rogue archetype.

It's been stated on the boards that they were considering making it an archetype for no other reason than to prevent multiclassing with rogue, and that sort of rationale makes me a bit unhappy, as it's hard to justify for in-game reasons.

The playtest as it as a rogue alternate class, not an archetype (more changes than an archetype), and when they decided to not do that with gunslinger, gunslinger got a round 2. I haven't seen one for the ninja (or any real reason to not have it as a variant rogue, which is all I've ever used for one). You should check out the playtest document before you call bad on it being an archetype (I'm sure there are some changes between the playtest and the final product, but I doubt it's changing a huge amount).


gbonehead wrote:

I just really really really have my fingers crossed that they decided against making ninja a rogue archetype.

It's been stated on the boards that they were considering making it an archetype for no other reason than to prevent multiclassing with rogue, and that sort of rationale makes me a bit unhappy, as it's hard to justify for in-game reasons.

ask yourself what a ninja does differently than a rogue and what could be gutted from a rogue in order to make it a ninja and now you see what paizo is doing (and what i think is the correct decision) i mean rogue = versatile sneak , ninja = assassin sneak both have sneak attack both have a emphasis on the more subtle side of combat and both have the same attack progression it makes more sense to make it a alternate class .

and so you shall know archetypes and alternate classes are different .

the ninja is very much so and will be a breed of its own.

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