Almost three weeks ago, the vigilantes of the world struck out from the shadows and began to carve their own niches in a new open playtest. After plenty of feedback and several playtests of the vigilante, the vigilante returned to his lair to recover from his wounds and prepare his toolbox for his next greatest challenge... and so, the vigilante returns, with more tricks than ever before!
For those of you familiar with the first playtest vigilante, there's some huge changes in the new versions. In my opinion, the biggest of all was the change to the social identity. The first round vigilante received set abilities in his social identities, but many playtesters pointed out that every vigilante has a slightly-different take on their social identity, so maybe they won't all have abilities befitting of Bruce Wayne. The new version of the vigilante allows each vigilante to choose from a list of social talents at odd levels, to complement his vigilante talents at even levels. This allows you to prioritize the social abilities that are perfect for your own vigilante's social identity. For instance, you can gain the ability to switch identities quickly at a lower level... speaking of which, however, leads me to the second and perhaps more important part of the change in how identities work. In the new version of the vigilante, it only takes 1 minute to change identities even at 1st level (down from 5 minutes). But beyond that, as many of you suggested in the discussion threads, vigilantes can now use all their vigilante abilities in their social identity; they just risk being exposed if they do!
The other huge change is to the zealot specialization. In the first round, playtesters pointed out that the zealot didn't have enough of its own identity as a specialization like the others did, and too many of the abilities were similar to those of previous classes. Following some very clever suggestions from the playtest forums, the revamped zealot, inspired by superheroes with divine origins, chooses one of four potential sources for his power and gains a special ability, new talent options, and some changes to his spells known based on his choice. Whether you play an abyssal zealot with claws (and the ability to gain rend!) or a fey zealot with the ability to turn invisible while moving, the choice is yours!
There are a number of other smaller changes within the talents and specializations as well. Together they add up. For instance, many playtests of the stalker indicated that its unique talents allowed it to play differently than the playtester first expected, and now, with a few new talents, the specific ability to do full hidden strike damage on every attack against a foe affected by startling appearance, and upgraded damage on a full hidden strike (d8s instead of d6s), the stalker continues its path of darkness. Meanwhile, the avenger has gained some upgrades and consolidation of key talents that grant him some powerful abilities. For instance, now if you take hard to kill, you don't just gain Die Hard; you gain other powers like the ability to wait a round before dying of hit point damage (during which you can heal it off). The warlock's biggest change is to the powerful mystic bolts option, which now allows you to use it in conjunction with way more other abilities and ignores spell resistance, in return for a decrease in damage that is more-or-less cancelled by the ability to use it with the arcane striker talent (which you previously couldn't) alone!
So whatever style of vigilante you might be, whatever secret hides within your fragmented heart, find the strength within yourself to go forth and right the wrongs you crave to right... or, you know, commit those wrongs; we don't discriminate against evil vigilantes!
Roleplaying Guild Vigilantes
As we announced in the last playtest blog this version of the vigilante is legal for play in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild. The Chronicle sheet for the vigilante is now available for all participating in the playtest in organized play! Go ahead and grab it now!
The official playtest period ends on July 20th, but we'd love for you to keep playing through August 17th; when you're through, you can post new discoveries and final thoughts (once per person) in a special thread. This allows us to continue to apply your most important ideas and latebreaking discoveries later into the design process than usual and makes them easy to find!
In honor of the new round of the playtest, I think I'm going to make a dedicated stalker thread to have some stalker chats with you guys. See you there!
I hope we will still be getting the Medium blog today as well.
But that would have required me to write two blog posts for the same day. Can either you or I handle that kind of confluence?
so does that mean its been moved to Friday? :(
As it turns out, zergtitan my friend, I can handle the confluence. How about you? Willing to accept some extra influence to channel two of my blogs in the same day?
EDIT: Clearly so, as you have posted there before I could grab the url and post here ;)
Just out of curiosity, why not have the "Spells Per Day" tables condensed into just one table, since both the Warlock and Zealot have the same basic sort of spellcasting, with the same numbers of spells prepared. Seems like it would save page space that could otherwise be used (or just reduce word count).
Just out of curiosity, why not have the "Spells Per Day" tables condensed into just one table, since both the Warlock and Zealot have the same basic sort of spellcasting, with the same numbers of spells prepared. Seems like it would save page space that could otherwise be used (or just reduce word count).
They don't have the same spellcasting, though. The Warlock casts as a hybrid like the Arcanist while the Zealot is a true spontaneous caster like the Inquisitor.
On that note, a way to get spontaneous charisma-based casting on the Warlock would be appreciated...
Hrmmm I did sort of notice a big change in the way Mystic Bolts are. Before at lower levels, say 5. You could do enough without a booster (Assuming nothing like Bard is there) and Do good damage. However if you met a Demon for example there was at least a 1 in 6 chance to hurt it. NOW with the new function instead of making it 1/2 your level they made it 1/4 to damage. It now works with a few more things as well. However that Demon from before that you had a chance to hurt that increased later as you leveled... you have the same chance base to hurt.. at 20th level. That isnt good. The Reason being that now Arcane Strike becomes a Necessary pick to validate Mystic Bolts and even then doesn't fare well against even Resist 10.
Did they take this into account in the playtest or just make a blind guess? Luckily my own Playtest Warlock is not too affected by the change, but it is a noticiable difference. It seems too low.
They don't have the same spellcasting, though. The Warlock casts as a hybrid like the Arcanist while the Zealot is a true spontaneous caster like the Inquisitor.
Ah, true. But the table is the same for both, aside from the Known/Prepared wording. I just can't help but think that it would be more beneficial to combine the table, but maybe I'm underestimating people's ability to understand how the table is supposed to be applied to the specialization's casting ability.
So I honestly thought that Mad Rush was gone, but it's actually just unfinished editing. It's in the same paragraph as Living Shield instead of having it's own separate category. I still feel a -6 to AC for pounce is rather much. Especially considering you have to be 12th level to get it. If it was allowed at a lower level, and the penalty diminished by 2 at 12th, then maybe. At that level you're fighting large and huge creatures that will very much take AoO on you, and essentially nothing short of a 1 will miss. Even Dodge and Mobility barely help to mitigate that.
Pounce is an incredibly powerful ability. There's a reason that PCs in general don't have access to it without serious investment (3 or 4 feats/class abilities). Getting it for one talent needs to have some negatives to balance it out.
The penalty to AC is the point of calling it "Mad Rush." You may take some damage on the way in but if you get there you've got a great chance of finishing the fight before the other guy gets an action.
I can see adding a talent that removes the AC penalty as a possibility if talents are indeed supposed to be stronger than a feat.
Quote:
Also, when the final product comes out, PLEASE!!! have more Social talents available at levels 1-5. Nothing's more frustrating than seeing talents that are only available at level 7 and higher for 3/4 of the list. Every vigilante is practically guaranteed to have the same social talent at 1, 3, and 5. You might as well just give them those automatically as class abilities, and start the talent selection at level 7.
I'm sure we'll see more talents in the final product but I agree with your main point. Renown is a prerequisite for so many things that it really ought to be a class feature. Maybe in place of the first level social talent. There's precedent for that, the investigator doesn't get a first level investigator talent.
The penalty to AC is the point of calling it "Mad Rush." You may take some damage on the way in but if you get there you've got a great chance of finishing the fight before the other guy gets an action.
Combined with Close the Gap there's no AoOs on the way in at all and the AC penalty is only a -4 against the guy you're trying to kill. (Who, hopefully, will already be dead before he can take advantage anyway.)
-Intimidate is now a class skill for all vigilantes.
-Bunch of previously default abilities are now selectable social talents, along with some nice new ones, like your unscryable batcave.
-Dual identity now takes a minute to change into by default without social talents to speed it up, not five minutes. Also, your vigilante and social identities can be slightly further apart (essentially you can go diagonally on the chart now, so a LN identity could have the other be NG or NE)
-Vigilante abilities can be used in social identity but risk exposing your vigilante identity.
Avenger:
-Armor Silence and Armor Skin were folded into a single talent, and added on the ability to move at normal speed in medium armor eventually.
-Heavy Training also eventually allows moving at normal speed in heavy armor.
-Nothing Can Stop Me now specifies that if you get interrupted by a creature you can still attack them.
-Unkillable was boosted.
Stalker:
-Hidden Strike does more damage when used against people unaware of the stalker's presence (1d8s instead of 1d6s) and also can be used in conjunction with startling appearance.
-Added Cunning Feint talent.
-Added Evasive talent.
-Up Close and Personal does more damage with Hidden Strike.
Warlock:
-Caster's Defense, rather than giving you DR, lets you wear light armor without spell failure, and move up to medium armor at higher levels.
-Concealed Casting now actually does what it says it does.
-Familiar now gets a social identity.
-Mystic bolts has damage reduced, but now works with more feats as well as arcane striker, and explicitly lets you threaten.
Zealot:
-Now gets a source of divine power to harbor that grants something like a limited bloodline or domain abilities.
-Abyssal Rend talent added for abyssal source.
-Divine Bastion talent turned into Celestial Bastion talent and made exclusive for celestial source.
-Domain talent removed.
-Fey Touch talent added for fey source.
-Penance Gaze talent turned into Infernal Gaze talent and made exclusive for infernal source.
-Zealot Smite talent added.
I'm still kinda disappointed there wasn't an option for pre-gen of higher level vigilantes to test how it plays beyond level 3 in PFS during the playtest window. Either pre-generated ones at levels 4 and 7 or being able to build your own level 4 or 7 vigilante.
Yes, it might be somewhat broken to just show up at the table with a level 4 vigilante built and optimized, but that's GOING TO HAPPEN ANYWAY with DM baby characters following the book's release. To say nothing of characters built during play for the next eight months until the book is released.
It'd be better to get more feedback now and catch the higher level problems and risk borking a couple scenarios, than let them stay in and plague tables for months or years to come.
What's up with the "X Appearance" line of CLASS FEATURES?
If they were talents then that would be fine because some specializations (read: all of them except Avenger) have in class methods of proccing it (Hide in Plain Sight, Invis, and Greater Invis). Unfortunately the Avenger doesn't and essentially has wasted class features. The base class features of the class should be stuff useful for every specialization instead of mostly useless for one.
Caster’s Defense (Su): The warlock vigilante gains
Combat Casting as a bonus feat and can cast spells in
light armor without any chance of spell failure. At 12th
level, he can cast spells in medium armor without any
chance of spell failure.
Looking over the new version, they are okay but I think they need more flexibility. You are going to have the same feats if you are in social or vigilante mode. Maybe an option to have a flexible feat slot for both modes. (One feat for use only in Social, another one only in Vigilante mode)
My other thought is to go with a Jack of All Trades type. Rather than Avenger, Stalker, Warlock or Zealot, use the base class and the base ability for one of them. All talents are available but for the ones like Arcane Training, unless you take it as your base ability, you can only take the first level in it later.
Caster’s Defense (Su): The warlock vigilante gains
Combat Casting as a bonus feat and can cast spells in
light armor without any chance of spell failure. At 12th
level, he can cast spells in medium armor without any
chance of spell failure.
Grateful for this.
Kegdrainer wrote:
Looking over the new version, they are okay but I think they need more flexibility. You are going to have the same feats if you are in social or vigilante mode. Maybe an option to have a flexible feat slot for both modes. (One feat for use only in Social, another one only in Vigilante mode)
My other thought is to go with a Jack of All Trades type. Rather than Avenger, Stalker, Warlock or Zealot, use the base class and the base ability for one of them. All talents are available but for the ones like Arcane Training, unless you take it as your base ability, you can only take the first level in it later.
My group also brought this up. We're missing a bard type of character. Someone who's just super knowledgeable. Maybe give them the equivalent of ranger/paladin level spells so that they get something at 4th, and only get a max level of 4.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Kegdrainer wrote:
Looking over the new version, they are okay but I think they need more flexibility. You are going to have the same feats if you are in social or vigilante mode. Maybe an option to have a flexible feat slot for both modes. (One feat for use only in Social, another one only in Vigilante mode)
My other thought is to go with a Jack of All Trades type. Rather than Avenger, Stalker, Warlock or Zealot, use the base class and the base ability for one of them. All talents are available but for the ones like Arcane Training, unless you take it as your base ability, you can only take the first level in it later.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Warlock question/observation
As the class reads now is the intention to keep the spells per day as is or will the warlock be getting the same treatment as the zealot for the number of spells per day they are able to cast?
The Pathfinder Unchained Rogue talent - Major Magic - gives the ability to cast a first level spell once per day for every 2 rogue levels they possess. Or 10 times a day at level 20. With a feat and racial options to obtain more uses per day. With an additional feat option to change out that spell every 10 minutes if needed.
This might be comparing apples to orangutans but it seems odd that a non caster has more flexibility within their limited scope than a class that is essentially dedicated to magical options.
Thoughts?
Also it's clear that an Extra Talent feat is really needed.
I can't but laugh when I read the sidebar saying that there won't be such a feat because the class and options make the vigilante too powerful compared to other classes to all it to exist. I can't imagine what classes they're referring to.
Also it's clear that an Extra Talent feat is really needed.
I can't but laugh when I read the sidebar saying that there won't be such a feat because the class and options make the vigilante too powerful compared to other classes to all it to exist. I can't imagine what classes they're referring to.
Yeah, considering the fact that Extra Rage Power and Extra Revelation are both quite a bit stronger than the hypothetical Extra Vigilante Talent. So far the only dev commentary I recall seeing on that point was "Those feats are too good, so we're avoiding repeating that mistake."
I'm happy with some of the changes with the round 2, but mystic bolt's being nerf'd damage-wise really sucks. Now it's basically got no chance of dealing damage for my warlock since everything past mid-level has energy resistance.
I'm happy with some of the changes with the round 2, but mystic bolt's being nerf'd damage-wise really sucks. Now it's basically got no chance of dealing damage for my warlock since everything past mid-level has energy resistance.
It works with a lot more stuff now. For instance, your l15 warlock can pick back up 1d6+3 of that damage from arcane striker now working (before it didn't), and he's one level away from a large jump (arcane striker rises by 1d6+1 damage at 16).
It works with a lot more stuff now. For instance, your l15 warlock can pick back up 1d6+3 of that damage from arcane striker now working (before it didn't), and he's one level away from a large jump (arcane striker rises by 1d6+1 damage at 16).
My character didn't have the feats or talents to spare for arcane strike so not really an option.
Also, I really hope there are going to be more social talents available at first level, since right now you may as well not have renown be a social talent and just be an ability at first level, especially since nearly all the social talents need it as a prerequsite. Looking at them I am still abit disappointed that there isn't really much reason to ever go social persona aside from roleplaying.
Quesiton Mark: Have you ever read the manga Change 1,2,3? I ask, because it might be a possible inspiration for an archetype for this class.
Change 1,2,3:
Change is about a girl who was raised by 3 fathers, each a master of a different style of martial arts. She underwent hellish training her whole life, and in order to survive it, she developed 3 split personalities, each one a master of a different martial art with a different personality, while maintaining her 'innocent' personality. Whenever she gets in trouble, one of the other personalities takes over and protects her, but each personality can be 'defeated' or knocked out which forces another change (as in, each of the 3 combat personalities has 1/3 of her actual HP). The split in personality is great enough, that she is able to make minor (well, minor for a manga) changes to her appearance because the way her brain controls the muscles in her body has changed. For example, tightening and relaxing of the facial muscles can narrow or round out her face somewhat.
Anyway, as I was reading the new playtest (I still don't like the class), I was suddenly reminded of the Change 1,2,3 manga I read years ago. If you're interested in exploring the concept more, it's relatively short at, I think, 14 chapters? Something like that. You'd probably be able to read it all in a single afternoon if you focused on it.
Maybe you could use the idea for an archetype, or something. Like, splitting up the talents even further, in a sort of Variant Multi Class, in that half of all talents are used for a completely separate personality, which has it's own social/vigilante identity and powers. Like forgoing the social talents at 3, 7, 11, 17 and 4, 8, 12, 16 in order to gain the abilities of a another specialization with it's own set of talents.
Just a thought I had.
[Edit] Oh, I forgot, Change 1,2,3 isn't exactly safe for work, so anyone who reads it, make sure you're in suitable company. I don't recall any actual nudity in it, just quite a bit of teasing.
Quesiton Mark: Have you ever read the manga Change 1,2,3? I ask, because it might be a possible inspiration for an archetype for this class.
** spoiler omitted **
Anyway, as I was reading the new playtest (I still don't like the class), I was suddenly reminded of the Change 1,2,3 manga I read years ago. If you're interested in exploring the concept more, it's relatively short at, I think, 14 chapters? Something like that. You'd probably be able to read it all in a single afternoon if you focused on it.
Maybe you could use the idea for an archetype, or something. Like, splitting up the talents even further, in a sort of Variant Multi Class, in that half of all talents are used for a completely separate personality, which has it's own social/vigilante identity and powers. Like forgoing the social talents at 3, 7, 11, 17 and 4, 8, 12, 16 in order to gain the abilities of a another specialization with it's own set of talents.
Just a thought I had.
[Edit] Oh, I forgot, Change 1,2,3 isn't exactly safe for work, so anyone who reads it, make sure you're in suitable company. I don't recall any actual nudity in it, just quite...
great manga. also pretty close to nudity if not right on, just not graphically designed. but yeah no one under 18 I'd suggest for safety.
Actually that is a Gesult idea I had for this class. Making her,
Like. Maybe
Standard action, 60ft range, and does suitable one shot damage. Preferablly able to be conductive OK so you can have a sniper weaponn of awesomenes.
Since the new mystic bolt is pretty much always going to go "twf" when they can, it would be cool to gain some sorta sniper shot or rpg shot for thoes who really enjoyed the decent mobility that the former mystic bolt.
It would be pretty cool if you could build up mystic bolt instead of caster levels.
=========
If anyone has play data on partial casting progression let me know..
there are so many talents I want, like mystic bolt, tattoo, teleporting..
but it seems like I can either take enough casting to semi stay relevant (the casting talents, casters defense, mystic bolt, concealed casting.. that pretty much takes all of my talents, and I won't really be able to get them as soon as they'd be useful depending on the game). or I can forgo casting and snag cooler abilities, and end up with a couple spell levels I rarely use due to armour failure
I'm curious how it actually plays out. but I've got no access to higher level gaming sadly. well no higher leveel that allows playtest. I do check the play area on this of course but if anyone happens to see one that really strikes as good info let me know
Quesiton Mark: Have you ever read the manga Change 1,2,3? I ask, because it might be a possible inspiration for an archetype for this class.
** spoiler omitted **
Anyway, as I was reading the new playtest (I still don't like the class), I was suddenly reminded of the Change 1,2,3 manga I read years ago. If you're interested in exploring the concept more, it's relatively short at, I think, 14 chapters? Something like that. You'd probably be able to read it all in a single afternoon if you focused on it.
Maybe you could use the idea for an archetype, or something. Like, splitting up the talents even further, in a sort of Variant Multi Class, in that half of all talents are used for a completely separate personality, which has it's own social/vigilante identity and powers. Like forgoing the social talents at 3, 7, 11, 17 and 4, 8, 12, 16 in order to gain the abilities of a another specialization with it's own set of talents.
I've been thinking of Marvel's Moon Knight the whole time. He's his own self (a boxer), Spider-Man, Captain America, or Wolverine. I don't see a problem with a vigilante accessing talents or feats that lets him take on other specializations. I look at it this way: if the Kineticist can use be the Avatar and have access to all four elements, then the vigilante can be an avenging arcanist.
You know, I really hope they don't just have outsiders + fey for zealot power sources.
Having a kobold zealot who draws strength from dragon gods would be cool. A kitsune zealot who draws strength from a fire-based elemental gods. A dhampir zealot who draws strength from warped undead gods. A human who was born on earth but found himself on golarion, thinking it was a dream started to worship Hypnos and became a Dreamspun Zealot. Admittedly, these could come in with future books but it's always nice to have a wide range of options straight out of the box.
Yeah, as it is right now, I feel like Renown should be a base ability you get at 1st level which can be upgraded via social talents, or we need a lot more social talents for the final version...since right now, your only choice is whether you take it at 1st level or 3rd level. Mind, a lot more social talents are needed regardless...but definitely some neat options.
The fighter and thief paths abilities improve when they level but the wizard and cleric paths don't. Why not give them 4th level casting + cantrips so they only need to spend two talents to get up to 6th level casting.
Also since this class is cha based then why not have it's spellcasting cha based for both the warlock and zealot paths.
Would it hurt for the class to add it's Cha mod to AC in hero mode or at least have a unarmored path that gets monk like AC bonuses.
The fighter and thief paths abilities improve when they level but the wizard and cleric paths don't. Why not give them 4th level casting + cantrips so they only need to spend two talents to get up to 6th level casting.
Also since this class is cha based then why not have it's spellcasting cha based for both the warlock and zealot paths.
Would it hurt for the class to add it's Cha mod to AC in hero mode or at least have a unarmored path that gets monk like AC bonuses.
I'd be cool with Brawler AC. You can wear armor and still get the bonus.
It works with a lot more stuff now. For instance, your l15 warlock can pick back up 1d6+3 of that damage from arcane striker now working (before it didn't), and he's one level away from a large jump (arcane striker rises by 1d6+1 damage at 16).
My character didn't have the feats or talents to spare for arcane strike so not really an option.
I have been trying to write an elegantly worded thread for the past three hours that basically says the same thing as Milo. Warlocks and zealots are taxed heavily for their ability to cast spells.
There seems to be this romanticized idea that the vigilante doesn't need to pick up additional spellcasting talents if it doesn't want to, but that ignores the fact that every other 6-level spellcasting class in the game gets additional bonuses (no matter how small) at the same time that they receive their next spell level. The only example that I could find to the contrary is the bard.
Another part of the problem comes form social talents. Don't get me wrong, I love them. Great idea and will ultimately be better as new talents are added to the list. But that said, all of the social talents effectively comprise of those "weak abilities" that other 6th-level spellcasters gain as they level up. The ability to gain a +4 bonus on Diplomacy or Intimidate checks in a specific city is cool, but it is not a strong ability. It is not something that makes up for loosing out on vigilante talents.
As written, the stalker has a significantly more powerful base ability than all of the other specializations, especially with its buff. At 1st level, +1 to hit, 1st level spells, and +2.5 damage to attacks (average of d4) are fairly well balanced. But at Level 4, that paradigm shifts to +1 to hit (BAB +4 compared to +3), 1st-level spells, and +5 damage. Then at level 8, it further shifts to +2 to hit, 1st level spells, and +10 damage. This gap keeps getting wider as the vigilantes level up. Here are some more things to consider:
— Most 6th-level spellcasters gain 3rd-level spell slots at 7th level. The vigilante can't take the talent to unlock those spells until 8th level.
— Most 6th-level spellcasters gain 5th level spell slots at 13th level. The vigilante can't take the talent to unlock those spells until 10th level.
So ultimately, a warlock or zealot's talent selection looks like this:
In the course of 16 levels, a warlock or zealot who wants to be good at casting spells gets THREE vigilante talents. In your PFS career, you get THREE talents. If you go mystic bolt, then you get arcane striker (to make up for the damage nerf) and mystic bolt, then you get nothing for 8 levels. This is why the whole "I can take the talent multiple times to pick more energy types," point is a moot one; where do you have the talent budget to pick multiple mystic bolt talents?
The worst point of all is the one that the vigilante doesn't HAVE to take spellcasting. That's like saying that an archer fighter doesn't have to take Precise Shot or Manyshot; you pretty much have to. All of the warlock and vigilante talents are fun and cool, but there is nothing in either specialization that can keep you viable as a party member if you choose to ignore spellcasting. This is a talent tax, pure and simple. And its a tax that the vigilante class already pays as a whole because at every odd level, it gains a social talent, which is a non-power based ability. Those talents are essentially the "extra use of judgment" per day or the "increase to bardic knowledge" of the vigilante class.
To put it into perspective, the current design would be like giving the stalker d4 hidden strike and then making them spend 5 of their 10 talents scaling that abilit to full 10d4.
It works with a lot more stuff now. For instance, your l15 warlock can pick back up 1d6+3 of that damage from arcane striker now working (before it didn't), and he's one level away from a large jump (arcane striker rises by 1d6+1 damage at 16).
My character didn't have the feats or talents to spare for arcane strike so not really an option.
I have been trying to write an elegantly worded thread for the past three hours that basically says the same thing as Milo. Warlocks and zealots are taxed heavily for their ability to cast spells.
There seems to be this romanticized idea that the vigilante doesn't need to pick up additional spellcasting talents if it doesn't want to, but that ignores the fact that every other 6-level spellcasting class in the game gets additional bonuses (no matter how small) at the same time that they receive their next spell level. The only example that I could find to the contrary is the bard.
Another part of the problem comes form social talents. Don't get me wrong, I love them. Great idea and will ultimately be better as new talents are added to the list. But that said, all of the social talents effectively comprise of those "weak abilities" that other 6th-level spellcasters gain as they level up. The ability to gain a +4 bonus on Diplomacy or Intimidate checks in a specific city is cool, but it is not a strong ability. It is not something that makes up for loosing out on vigilante talents.
As written, the stalker has a significantly more powerful base ability than all of the other specializations, especially with its buff. At 1st level, +1 to hit, 1st level spells, and +2.5 damage to attacks (average of d4) are fairly well balanced. But at Level 4, that paradigm shifts to +1 to hit (BAB +4 compared to +3), 1st-level spells, and +5 damage. Then at level 8, it further shifts to +2 to hit, 1st level spells, and +10 damage. This gap keeps getting wider as the vigilantes level up. Here are some more things to
...
If the devs read no other feedback on the warlock, let them read this.
My 3 were Concealed Spellcasting, Mystic Bolt and Living Shadow. Concealed spellcasting is required for my warlock to cast in social persona without worry. Mystic bolt is his source of damage (which has now nearly halved). And Living Shadow is needed for generating concealment in situations were there are none, allowing me to just use super stealth to snipe everything with mystic bolt, though it can only be used in one encounter per day.
So I see some potential issues with some Social talents:
"Loyal Aid (Ex): The vigilante gains the service of a number of loyal allies that can help him gather information, cover for his two identities, or perform minor tasks. Inside his area of renown, a vigilante with this talent gains a bonus on Diplomacy checks made to gather information equal to 1/2 his vigilante level. In addition, if the vigilante wants, he can task his friends to help cover for him by spreading false tales of his location and activities to others. This has the effect of increasing the DC of Diplomacy checks made to gather information about the vigilante and Survival checks made to track him by an amount equal to his level. This lasts for 1 day, and can be used only once per week. Finally, once per day, the vigilante can ask his allies to perform a minor task for him. This usually involves delivering a message, purchasing a piece of mundane gear worth 100 gp or less (which the vigilante must pay for), or retrieving an object owned by the vigilante (that would be easily accessible by the ally). This task might take other forms as well, subject to GM discretion, but can never involve combat or danger. A vigilante must be at least 3rd level and possess the renown social talent to select this talent."
So I can only ask my friend Steve to mislead people about my location/identity once a week... yet I can ask him to pick up my mail or Groceries every single day? whose friends would do that?:
"Hey Steve, I need you to tell people I'm away for the weekend"
"OK Bro... but I'll forget this conversation in 24 hours and say nothing else on the subject all week"... does anyone else see a problem with that?
so the suggested change:
"This lasts for 1 day, and can be used only once per week." changed to:
"Every continuous 24 hour period of use reduces the effectiveness of these rumors by 1/5(rounded up) or a minimum of 1 point off the DC(whichever is greater), this is not returned to full effectiveness until six consecutive days of non-use have passed"
Edit note: what this would mean at level 20
Day 1: DC 20
Day 2: DC 16
Day 3: DC 12
Day 4: DC 9
Day 5: DC 7
Day 6: DC 5
Day 7: DC 4
Day 10: DC 1
Day 11: inactive for 6 days
My other issue:
"Social Grace: The vigilante can select any one Intelligence-, Wisdom-, or Charisma-based skill. Whenever the vigilante is in his social identity, he receives a +4 circumstance bonus on checks with the selected skill. At 5th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, he can select another skill (with the same restrictions) to gain this bonus."
must this extra +4 at higher levels be limited to "other" skills?
I'm thinking stacking of this would be useful for those who want their cover identity to show a progression in things like their Knowledge's or profession, and a +4 every 4 after level 5 is only a 16 at level 17, so my suggestion is this:
"You may stack this bonus only if the bonus from Social Grace alone + Ranks in the skill does not exceed your level cap for skill ranks... however each single use of this bonus may allow you to exceed this requirement so long as no other use of Social Grace has happened for that skill."
I think now more than ever, the Warlock and Zealot need to be totally scrapped and just made into one class Specialization with access to all the Talents, and the option of Arcane or Divine Casting, and Casting Stat of either Wis or Cha.
I really hope they remove the flavor portions of the Divine Power to Harbor. Why do I need to be linked to anything Abyssal to get claws or Enlarge Person? Like, who even thought that was logical? And I need to have something diabolic empowering me to be a Zealot of Sarenrae? What? Seriously, this was worse than before. Nice idea, and needed to get much further away from the Inquisitor list as possible, but terrible implementation that just robs even more play options.
And, please, just remove the Alignment restrictions in the Dual Identity. Make people want to play the class, not turn them away.
Okay first of all, I want to point out an error in the document:
Under Vigilante Specialization:
"The base ability and bonus class skills apply when the vigilante is in either of his identities without restriction, but if the vigilante uses any other abilities while in his social identity, he must succeed at a Disguise check against the Perception checks of all onlookers, without the +20 bonus from social grace, or the onlookers will realize that he is something more than his social identity, and perhaps discover that the social and vigilante identities are one and the same."
the words "social grace" need to be replaced with "seemless guise"
------------------------------
Second, while possibly not an error, I thought that I might point it out.
Both Seemless Guise and the Everyman social talent grant a +20 circumstance bonus to disguise checks. This means that they do not stack. I dont know if that is intentional, but if Everyman requires 11 levels to even pick it, I feel that an untyped +10 (The same bonus of a disguise self spell) would be far more worthwhile. Otherwise, I feel like this social trait has little use.
------------------------------
Third, Now that I got that out of the way some things that irked me slightly.
o Most of the social talents I see shouldn't require a vigilante level to acquire. As it is right now, you are practically limited to nearly the same build as the Vigilante given in Round 1. What I recommend is removing the level prerequisites on half the social talents.
o Both the Zealot and the Warlock are still taxed out of most of their talents. I feel that both Zealot and Warlock should just be given 6th level spellcasting capability. I dont think they should be taxed into spending their talents to do so. If you are deadset in having them taxed, I would recommend that:
- Warlock: Base Ability = Mystic Bolt + Cantrips. Change Arcane Training I into a Warlock Talent. While this will still make spellcasting a tax, it will give a level 1 character at-will abilities which is far more useful then say 3 spells per day.
- Zealot: Base Ability = Channel Energy + Domain (Powers Only) + Orisons. Change Divine Training I into a Zealot talent, which will grants spells from the chosen domain.
o Give Avenger specialization access to the Stalwart and Improved Stalwart abilities. In addition regardless if you are including feats that allow minor mixing of the specializations, I feel that the avenger should have a talent like the following:
- Adaptive Talent: The avenger may choose a single talent from another specialization. The avenger may count his avenger level as his stalker level when meeting stalker talent prerequisites. The avenger may count 1/2 his avenger level as warlock or zealot levels when meeting their talent prerequisites. The Avenger still must meet all other perquisites when choosing the talent. This talent may be chosen multiple times.
o Give Stalker specialization the following talent:
- Adaptive Talent: The stalker may choose a single talent from another specialization. The stalker may count his stalker level as his avenger level when meeting stalker talent prerequisites. The stalker may count 1/2 his stalker level as warlock or zealot levels when meeting their talent prerequisites. The stalker still must meet all other perquisites when choosing the talent. This talent may be chosen multiple times.
o Give Warlock specialization the following talent:
- Adaptive Talent: The warlock may choose a single talent from another specialization. The warlock may count his warlock level as his zealot level when meeting zealot talent prerequisites. The warlock may count 1/2 his warlock level as avenger or stalker levels when meeting their talent prerequisites. The warlock still must meet all other perquisites when choosing the talent. This talent may be chosen multiple times.
o Give Zealot specialization the following talent:
- Adaptive Talent: The zealot may choose a single talent from another specialization. The zealot may count his zealot level as his warlock level when meeting warlock talent prerequisites. The zealot may count 1/2 his zealot level as avenger or stalker levels when meeting their talent prerequisites. The zealot still must meet all other perquisites when choosing the talent. This talent may be chosen multiple times.
I think that the Divine Power ability could be simplified a lot if instead of outsider races, the vigilante was imbued with a domain, and different talents required different domains (or subdomains based upon their domain). That would leave them a lot more flexible and making adding new talents less of a nightmare. (As written, if you wanted to add a Div divine power, you'd need an entire set of all-new zealot talents to go with it.)
For example, say a powerful demon lord wants to sponsor a vigilante. He chooses one of his domains and that domain becomes the source of the vigilante's power. The vigilante adds that domain's domain spells (up to 6th level) to his list of domain spells known and gains that domain's domain powers. In the long run, that would likely save a LOT of wordage for the zealot class and would make the addition of new domain powers easier.
In addition, you could add the choice of allowing a vigilante to choose an animal or terrain domain instead of a cleric domain (as a druid), and if the vigilante chooses Animal, Plant, or an animal or terrain domain, they can use the hunter spell list (druid + ranger) instead of the inquisitor spell list to determine their spells known. That way you could have a guardian animal spirit or a spirit of nature or something as the source of your divine power. (CAPTAIN PLANET VIGILANTES!!!!) End it by saying that any animal domain counts as the Animal Domain for talent prerequisites and any terrain domain counts as the Plant Domain for terrain prerequisites.
In this manner, the vigilante still gets something unique and cool (Charisma-based spellcasting that is backed by a specific deity, plus getting to be the only 6th-level spellcaster that adds domain spells to her list of spells known), but its also something that's a lot easier to expand from a freelancer standpoint and also doesn't give an entirely new submechanic to one specialization.
Just a thought: the Fey Divine Power alters the character's spellcasting list. Why not just combine Warlock and Zealot and let the character's Power source selection determine whether he is an arcane or divine spellcaster?
That way you can combine their talent lists and don't have silly things like Warlocks being able to hide their spellcasting while Zealots can't.
