Multiple Pearly White Spindles

[Dudeishca7]

So, the first half of the effect of the Pearly White Spindle Aeon Stone reads "When you invest this aeon stone, it slowly starts healing your wounds, restoring 1 HP every minute." We'll ignore the second half (because everyone already does)

A friend and I are in a disagreement about whether two or more attuned Spindles would fall under the "Duplicate Effects" clause; "When you're affected by the same thing multiple times, only one instance applies, using the higher level or rank of the effects, or the newer effect if the two are equal. For example, if you were using mystic armor and then cast it again, you'd still benefit from only one casting of that spell. Casting a spell again on the same target might get you a better duration or effect if it were cast at a higher rank the second time, but otherwise doing so gives you no advantage."

One side argues that these are not duplicate effects because it's not a condition, bonus, penalty, or ability being applied to the wearer, but multiple sources of healing happening in the same way. (comparable to drinking two healing potions, or being affected by two Heal spells)

The other side argues that because they are the same effect, reoccurring at the same intervals, they are duplicate effects. (comparable to a dragon instinct barbarian getting additional fire damage being unable to get the benefit of a Flaming Rune, or a Sylph character with the "Swift" feat doesn't gain the benefit of the Fleet general feat)

[Squiggit]

Dudeishca7 wrote:

comparable to a dragon instinct barbarian getting additional fire damage being unable to get the benefit of a Flaming Rune, or a Sylph character with the "Swift" feat doesn't gain the benefit of the Fleet general feat

Wait, why do you think a dragon barbarian couldn't use a flaming rune? One of them is a class feature the other is an item they're clearly not the same effect I don't understand why you're using these as examples.

[Ascalaphus]

I don't think you can get a provably correct answer to this. It's a bit ambiguous and up to taste.

But, the aeon stone is an invested item. If you want two of them, you're spending two investment points on that. That adds up quickly.

As a GM I wouldn't worry about allowing it. The benefit is just not that powerful (there are many good ways to heal out of combat), and the price balances it out quite well.

[Dudeishca7]

Squiggit wrote:

Dudeishca7 wrote:

comparable to a dragon instinct barbarian getting additional fire damage being unable to get the benefit of a Flaming Rune, or a Sylph character with the "Swift" feat doesn't gain the benefit of the Fleet general feat

Wait, why do you think a dragon barbarian couldn't use a flaming rune? One of them is a class feature the other is an item they're clearly not the same effect I don't understand why you're using these as examples.

The effect Of the Dragon Instinct Barbarian's rage is to add typed damage to their melee strikes, the effect of the Flaming Rune is also to add typed damage to attacks with the weapon it's inscribed on.

Any apples-to-apples comparison of two sources healing a player not both working would also be incorrect, but it can be, like, a character with void healing being hit with a Magus Spellstrike Harm using a sword inscribed with a Decaying Rune if yoo prefer. Or a player drinking two Healing Potions only getting the effect of one, or a creature provoking Reactive Strikes from two enemies only taking he damage of one of the attacks.

[YuriP]

Duplicated effects are only valid when the exactly same named effect is applied twice.

Fire runes and rage fire damage are both extra damage, but they aren't the same things, nor a typed bonus damage. They stack normally.

[Finoan]

The most direct comparison would be to another heal-over-time effect. Such as a Witch casting Life Boost on the target.

Also,

Quote:

One side argues that these are not duplicate effects because it's not a condition, bonus, penalty, or ability being applied to the wearer

where is that listed as the requirements for being considered a duplicate effect?

The rule says 'thing'.

Duplicate Effects wrote:

When you're affected by the same thing multiple times, only one instance applies

No restriction listed to those things being conditions, bonuses, penalties, or coming from abilities.

My thoughts: It looks like it qualifies as a duplicate effect to me. Yes the healing effect is coming from an item rather than a spell. That doesn't exempt the effect from the Duplicate Effects rule.

I also agree with Ascalaphus that this isn't the most high-stakes ruling to be worried about. A level 3 character casting a Rank 2 Lay on Hands is healing 12 points every 10 minutes. 10 spindles working together couldn't outperform that. And Lay on Hands isn't the best post-combat healing available.

[Castilliano]

If the phrasing was "you gain (not so) Fast Healing 1/minute" then the spindles wouldn't stack. But in this case the first spindle is healing you one hit point, the other one is healing you another hit point. Neither is giving you an ability.

And as mentioned, they're Invested and make little impact given the availability out-of-combat healing.

[Finoan]

Castilliano wrote:

If the phrasing was "you gain (not so) Fast Healing 1/minute" then the spindles wouldn't stack. But in this case the first spindle is healing you one hit point, the other one is healing you another hit point. Neither is giving you an ability.

But they are all creating the same effect. An unnamed '1 HP per minute healing' effect. Not all effects are named. They don't have to be. They are still effects.

Again, as I mentioned earlier, it doesn't have to be a named condition or an ability in order to qualify for the Duplicate Effects rule. It just has to be an effect. (Named Conditions would fall under the Redundant Conditions rule anyway.)

[Dudeishca7]

Finoan wrote:

The most direct comparison would be to another heal-over-time effect. Such as a Witch casting Life Boost on the target.

I have to disagree. Fast Healing is its whole own ability, and the source of the healing is the creature with that ability, not an item healing the wearer. A better comparison would be being the target of two Heal spells from different sources, or two healing potions, or wearing an activated Troll Hide Vest and using the cellular reconstruction feat.

It's each Spindle having an effect that heals the character ("it slowly starts healing your wounds"), not the Spindles giving the character multiple instances of an effect.

[Finoan]

In trying to see the other side of this debate, I think the disagreement is on whether the spindle's effect is a series of instantaneous effects that happen once per minute, or a single effect that lasts the entire time the spindle is Invested.

I'm pretty firmly in the 'single, continuous effect that heals 1/minute' camp. Because that is what the Spindle says: You invest the spindle and then it goes to work with its continuous effect. In this case it is very clear that having a duplicate continuous effect that heals 1/minute is not going to work with the Duplicate Effects rule.

If you are instead thinking of the spindle like a cleric in a jar that is waking up every minute and casting a new instance of a healing spell on you for 1 HP each time, then I can see why you would rule that multiple of them would all still have their effect.

But I am not understanding how you come to the interpretation of the series of multiple discrete effects triggered once per minute.

[Dudeishca7]

Finoan wrote:

But I am not understanding how you come to the interpretation of the series of multiple discrete effects triggered once per minute.

Because it says that "it slowly starts healing your wounds, restoring 1 HP every minute." Like, if (virtually) any other item has a "once per [anything longer than a round]" effect, like if I have a "once per day" ability from an item, (call it a wand) I consider that ability to be usable once after my daily preparations, any time before my next ablutions. Even if I use the wand at 8 pm, and I'm ready to use it again at 6 am, that's once per day, and that is when the effect takes place, on activation.

I wouldn't think of it as a continuous, ongoing effect that is allowing me an activation that refreshes 24 hours after use, or every morning at 12am, or whatever.

I am equally confused by how you could see something that's effect takes place on 1 round, and then skips 9 of them is happening continuously. Having periods of time between a thing taking place is "intermittent", the exact opposite of "continuous".
(^^^Please read that as fully earnest curiosity. I know that wording and bringing up definitions in an internet discussion sounds really aggressive and snarky, which is not my intention, and I apologize. I've spent a good few minutes trying to sound less like a dick, and this rider explaining myself and apologizing is all I arrived at. Sorry again. I love you, fellow internet stranger.)

[QuidEst]

A solid "ask the GM" from me.

Personally, I would probably allow it on the basis that the text says "When you invest this aeon stone, it slowly starts healing your wounds, restoring 1 HP every minute." The way it's worded is that the stone is doing something, rather than the stone granting you something. I refuse to defend or argue the position any further, though, because it's very semantic and it's entirely reasonable that somebody would choose to interpret it differently.

[YuriP]

Just to remember that effects are not a thing by itself, but a part of a thing. There's no damage or healing from nowhere, every effect has a source that could be an item, an action, a feat, a feature and so on.

If we consider that effects are a thing, we will enter in a hell of conflicting effects preventing everything from work. For example, Weapon Specialization conflicting with rage damage and property runes damage because all they are “extra damage” and if we consider extra damage as a same “thing” only the higher will be applied.

Duplicate Effects is already explained by its own using mystic armor as example and not the item AC bonus that it gives. This also exemplified during Impossible Playtest where Invoke Rune says that you cannot benefit from the effect of invoke the same specific rune twice. However, you can activate multiple different runes, including those that do damage at the same time, if they are different named runes.

[NorrKnekten]

Effects from the same 'source' or thing fall under duplicate effects indeed. In this case the two stones are the same 'thing' despite being separate objects

[Errenor]

Dudeishca7 wrote:

a Sylph character with the "Swift" feat doesn't gain the benefit of the Fleet general feat

Amusingly enough, Fleet and Swift also absolutely do stack.

Fleet
"You move more quickly on foot. Your Speed increases by 5 feet."

Swift
"You move with the wind always at your back. Your Speed increases by 5 feet.

Special The Speed increase from this feat isn't cumulative with any Speed increase from your ancestry feats (such as Nimble Elf)."

Fleet is not an ancestry feat and both speed increases aren't typed bonuses.

[NorrKnekten]

As do Fleet and Nimble Elf, its just Swift and Nimble Elf that doesn't to avoid doubling up on ancestry speed increases. Probably to avoid 45ft speed elf-sylphs that can become 60-70 with class features alone.

[Dudeishca7]

Errenor wrote:

Amusingly enough, Fleet and Swift also absolutely do stack.

I know. The premise is incorrect, so any apples-to-apples comparison will also be incorrect.

[Claxon]

I would probably allow it, not because I think the rules really allow it, but because your spending 60 gp per stone and need to invest the items. With only 10 items you can invest in at once, spending 2 to get 2 hp per minute isn't that great. It's not even fast healing or regen, so you don't get any benefits that might be related to that (if any).

Considering the amount of healing available to anyone trained in medicine...this is mediocre. Compare it to someone investing medicine skill feats, the white spindle is worthless.

[Squark]

Personally it feels to me like two instances of the same instance of a unique effect and would discourage it, as much to avoid setting a precedent that I'd have to go back on later when someone uses this logic for aomething else. I agree it's not game breaking in this case, though. The stone is strongest in those first few levels before medicine or focus spell repetition have enough support, or if your party composition is unpredictable (e.g. PFS, where one session you may just have one person trained in treat wounds, and the next you may have 3 experts with multiple skill feats each, within the same level bracket).

[Ascalaphus]

I think it's also a case of marginal return. One spindle makes a big difference if you don't have reliable out of combat healing. The second just cuts the time-to-full by half. The third cuts it down to a third, and so on. Basically, each one is less impressive than the one before it.

[Pixel Popper]

Claxon wrote:

. . . the white spindle is worthless.

I agree that the healing is subpar, but it was so on-theme for my Automaton hunter with a Aeon Wyrd familiar. His familiar was his "drone" and with the White Spindle slotted, it doubled as his repair droid.

[Perpdepog]

Finoan wrote:

The most direct comparison would be to another heal-over-time effect. Such as a Witch casting Life Boost on the target.

Also,

Quote:

One side argues that these are not duplicate effects because it's not a condition, bonus, penalty, or ability being applied to the wearer

where is that listed as the requirements for being considered a duplicate effect?

The rule says 'thing'.

Duplicate Effects wrote:

When you're affected by the same thing multiple times, only one instance applies

No restriction listed to those things being conditions, bonuses, penalties, or coming from abilities.

My thoughts: It looks like it qualifies as a duplicate effect to me. Yes the healing effect is coming from an item rather than a spell. That doesn't exempt the effect from the Duplicate Effects rule.

I also agree with Ascalaphus that this isn't the most high-stakes ruling to be worried about. A level 3 character casting a Rank 2 Lay on Hands is healing 12 points every 10 minutes. 10 spindles working together couldn't outperform that. And Lay on Hands isn't the best post-combat healing available.

Just wanted to point out that ten stones would outperform that; I think you mixed up the stones' healing rate of one minute for ten minutes. Each stone is granting 1 HP per minute, for a total of 10 HP every ten minutes. That's a total of 100 HP to the champion's 12.

Champions can consistently out-heal a full investiture's worth of stones once they have three focus points and the feat that allows them to regain all their focus with a single rest--level 10 or 12, I forget which. Actually if it's level 10 they'd need to wait until level 11, because at that point a full load of healing would grant 108 HP to the stones' 100.

Of course, by then characters can also gain Incredible Investiture to equip more stones, which would push the breakpoint in favor of the champion up to level 13, where they could do 126 HP of healing per ten minutes.

I'm not sure why I devoted time to figuring this out. I'm also in the camp that it's really not that big a deal, and other healing options are generally much more efficient. It is funny imagining someone foregoing magical armor or any other form of protection to be surrounded by a cloud of pretty rocks, though.

[NorrKnekten]

Its rather common for perspective to be skewed when the number is small.

In reality a single spindle is comparable to having a level 3 character doing nothing but using lay on hands, cornucopia or fresh produce on the wearer all day long. But you don't need to take any 10 minute refocus to gain the benefit.

[Tridus]

Considering these aren't really stacking up a bonus and can reasonably all do their own thing (each one heals 1 HP every minute), I'd let them stack. If you consider them effects and apply the effect stacking rules then they might not, depending on how you look at it.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter: once you use these investiture slots you can't get them back for the day, if you invest 10 of these you wind up with pseudo-fast healing 1 and that's it for gear for the day.

It's more a thing I'd warn someone against doing because it's an awful idea than because it's going to cause problems at the table.

[WatersLethe]

I believe it's a pretty clear cut "duplicate effects" situation, but surprised that this isn't more universally concluded.

Still, it's such a bad idea I would let it slide if it mattered to someone enough.

[Claxon]

I don't know if I agree that it's clear that it shouldn't work.

But the healing effect is so marginal, compared to losing access to other items (when out of combat healing is pretty easy and accessible) that if someone really intended to do it, I'm not going to spend my time worrying about whether or not it's allowed.

[Claxon]

We should also look at the gold cost vs expected wealth by level.

A pearly white spindle is 60 gp and a 3rd level item.

At 3rd level you're expected to have around 75 gp of items (lump sum value).

So the spindle is A LOT of your WBL.

You could buy multiple as you continue to level up, but doing so is going to mean you're not affording things like weapons and armor with the basic runes on them. It's a bad proposition.

[WatersLethe]

Can I offer you a nice [10 pearly white spindles] in this trying time?