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I'm not a fan of the way Swallow Howl/rupture is written, because it specifies that effectively you need to deal a bunch of damage in a single hit rather than letting you deal damage over multiple attacks. Most characters are going to be at a severe disadvantage in the first place because most classes don't focus on using weapons of light bulk or less.
As a GM I would probably rule that you can cut yourself out after deal some amount of damage, although I'm not sure if the amount should be equal to the rupture amount or if it should be more. It's kind of a question of if one hit for 24 damage should be viewed differently in terms of what it does versus multiple hits for 24 damage. And if the designers really intended for most people to be able to practically escape from being swallowed whole.
My honest advice is I think the way swallow whole is busted that you need to do X amount of damage in a single attack, when practically no one can do that much damage in a single attack.
This is why I consider cutting out of a creature with your backup weapon as one of the use cases of Vicious Swing, if you have it, as well as the more common cases of trying to bash through resistance/hardness or vapitalize on some single attack buffs like Aid and True Target. If you took it, this would be a good time for it. It would average 21 damage, but that makes 24 a slightly above average roll, instead of an "only possible on a crit".
EDIT: to expand on that, your odds of 24 damage with that shortsword are still only a bit under 24% on a Vicious Swing regular hit, but the payoff is bigger than on Escaping, if other people get swallowed, since Rupture gets them out, too.
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I'm not a fan of the way Swallow Howl/rupture is written, because it specifies that effectively you need to deal a bunch of damage in a single hit rather than letting you deal damage over multiple attacks. Most characters are going to be at a severe disadvantage in the first place because most classes don't focus on using weapons of light bulk or less.
It isn't quite as lethal as dropping with Persistent Damage active, but it is pretty close.
What I am less of a fan of is using the Elite template to push a higher level creature to be even further higher level than the PC level. That is a dangerous way to build encounters.
since Rupture gets them out, too.
Wait, where does the Swallow Whole rules say that?
As far as I know it doesn't say that, but it's not a leap to think that without some healing happening a hole ripped open in a creature that allowed one person to exit would allow others to do the same.
I think I remembered the part about escaping through the mouth freeing other creatures in the mouth and then misremembered it applying to the rupture. So the rules don't say that. (I'd definitely still argue that it's the only sound ruling after the creature's stomach is opened up, but it isn't a rule, i just misremembered it as one).
I'd definitely still argue that it's the only sound ruling after the creature's stomach is opened up.
OK. I'm good with that. I was just checking to make sure I wasn't missing something myself.
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This doesn't help in your current situation, but my table has taken to quickly Sickening any creature that is large enough to Swallow Whole or they dole out and consume Pucker Pickles.
I know a few players in PFS who would keep frozen lava on hand in case of just such a situation.
Worked great when they got swallowed whole by carnivorous plant monsters one session.
I'll pray to Gorum for you. PF2 made Swallow Hole really nasty again. An elite purple worm can eat you, burrow into the ground to escape, and digest you far away from the party leaving you dead very easily if the DM is mean.
If the DM is nice, he'll give the party a chance to get you out. If not, worm swims off with its meal like an earth shark.
First time my group experienced Swallow Hole in PF2, it was a nightmare.
In PF1 Freedom of Movement was much longer duration and it was easy to acquire freedom of movement items eventually making swallow hole irrelevant at higher levels. In PF2 swallow hole is very brutal.
Freedom of Movement still works against Swallow Whole, but you need to cast it early before someone gets swallowed.
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Interact to Swap your polearm for a shortsword and Interact to draw a shortsword have exactly the same level of difficulty from being swallowed.
Double Slice and similar feats let you add the damage of the strikes together before resistances so I'd say they count as one for the Rupture point.The catch is you need to be dual-wielding weapons -- if I'm holding a polearm in one hand and a short sword in the other, I'm not sure I can stow a polearm while in the stomach of a worm.
An elite purple worm can eat you, burrow into the ground to escape, and digest you far away from the party leaving you dead very easily if the DM is mean.Yes, that exact scenario occurred to me.
Again, I'd understand a caster having trouble escaping and getting swallowed basically being a death sentence. But dealing with a physical threat like this seems like it should be the martial's forte...that Athletics score of 32 is just so freaking high. Technically above the Extreme stat (though 30 at level 13 for the non-elite creature is extreme).
Now, if I had invested in having the short sword be Greater Striking and two 1d6 damage runes it'd be dealing 24.5 average at this point...but Greater Striking runes are level 12 items and I already have one on my main weapon and my ranged weapon. Hard to have too many of those at level 12.
If someone gets swallowed, kill the worm as fast as possible before it burrows off with its meal.
If someone gets swallowed, kill the worm as fast as possible before it burrows off with its meal.Double Slice and similar feats let you add the damage of the strikes together before resistances so I'd say they count as one for the Rupture point.The catch is you need to be dual-wielding weapons -- if I'm holding a polearm in one hand and a short sword in the other, I'm not sure I can stow a polearm while in the stomach of a worm.
An elite purple worm can eat you, burrow into the ground to escape, and digest you far away from the party leaving you dead very easily if the DM is mean.Yes, that exact scenario occurred to me.
Again, I'd understand a caster having trouble escaping and getting swallowed basically being a death sentence. But dealing with a physical threat like this seems like it should be the martial's forte...that Athletics score of 32 is just so freaking high. Technically above the Extreme stat (though 30 at level 13 for the non-elite creature is extreme).
Now, if I had invested in having the short sword be Greater Striking and two 1d6 damage runes it'd be dealing 24.5 average at this point...but Greater Striking runes are level 12 items and I already have one on my main weapon and my ranged weapon. Hard to have too many of those at level 12.
This is why every PC needs to be able to contribute to offense, even if only in an emergency like this. This is a boss. Nuke it.
That said, injuring a dumb beast does drive it away... *sigh*
Swallow Whole is one reason my PFS Bomber got the World Traveler Boon: I wanted access to Oxygen Oozes.
I am not sure it says anything about this in the rules but If you could inflict a sicken condition on the worm in theory it would either have to keep the penalty or throw up which should eject you back out of its stomach.
I am not sure it says anything about this in the rules but If you could inflict a sicken condition on the worm in theory it would either have to keep the penalty or throw up which should eject you back out of its stomach.
Pretty sure creatures don't have to vomit to lose the sickened condition.
I am not sure it says anything about this in the rules but If you could inflict a sicken condition on the worm in theory it would either have to keep the penalty or throw up which should eject you back out of its stomach.Pretty sure creatures don't have to vomit to lose the sickened condition.
Agreed. The creature has to 'retch' - not vomit.
The Pucker Pickles item mentioned earlier gives as a benefit that if the creature retches to reduce Sickened, then you can use your reaction to attempt to escape. It is too lax on the rules to rule it as a universal ability that if the creature retches, then you get to escape automatically as part of their retch action.
I am not sure it says anything about this in the rules but If you could inflict a sicken condition on the worm in theory it would either have to keep the penalty or throw up which should eject you back out of its stomach.Pretty sure creatures don't have to vomit to lose the sickened condition.
Yeah, it's probably to hopeful of thinking that retching (which is what the sicked condition mentions) would always allow for a swallowed creature a chance to escape.
The pucker pickles specifically mention that it works that way, but it might be part of the effect of the pickle.
It may also have been written semi-assuming that sickened worked that way, but it doesn't get to change the general rules for sickened.
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If you have a way to inflict Sickened, it DOES help if it's used up front, though, since it makes the creature unable to willingly ingest anything.
If you have a way to inflict Sickened, it DOES help if it's used up front, though, since it makes the creature unable to willingly ingest anything.
That does work for Swallow Hole. Another option for preventing swallowing.
Now that is a great point, if you inflict sickened before the creature swallows someone, it can't use swallow whole.
What are good ways to cause sickened?
If you have a way to inflict Sickened, it DOES help if it's used up front, though, since it makes the creature unable to willingly ingest anything.
What are good ways to cause sickened?
Resentment Witch. Never leave home to fight a Purple Worm without one.
Now that is a great point, if you inflict sickened before the creature swallows someone, it can't use swallow whole.
What are good ways to cause sickened?
PC1 spells that can do it that are not incapicitate (e.g. Cursed Metamorphosis) are Divine Wrath, Goblin Pox, Mariner's Curse, Phantom Pain. PC2 has Ghoulish Cravings, Gristly Growths, Noxious Vapors (crit fail), and Vomit Swarm.
Ghoulish Cravings, Goblin Pox and Mariner's Curse all work on a success, but are touch range so you'll be wanting reach spell. Ghoulish Cravings is the best for divine/occult, rank 2 and targets will save. Goblin Pox is arcane/primal, rank 1, but targets fortitude.
Now that is a great point, if you inflict sickened before the creature swallows someone, it can't use swallow whole.
What are good ways to cause sickened?
If you have Rank 8 spells, Summon Elemental will get you an Abysium Horror. Which doesn't have a temporary immunity clause on a successful save like other creatures such as a Catoblepas or the basic Monster ability Stench do.
Skunk Bomb.Now that is a great point, if you inflict sickened before the creature swallows someone, it can't use swallow whole.
What are good ways to cause sickened?
Considering the Cave Worm has a Fort Save of +28 this item is unlikely to work, unless you buy the level 17 version (it's a level 13 creature).
But it's an interesting thing to note anyways. And I feel like the cave worm may be an outlier with it's very high fort save.
Edit: Checking the creature building rules a 28 at level 13 is close to but below extreme.
Looking at options, if I knew I was going to be encountering creatures with swallow whole, like the Cave Worm, I would probably pick up the Swallow Spike (Greater) rune.
The greater version deal 3d6 damage + 2d6 damage (to swallowing or engulfing creatures) + "This attack gets an item bonus to the attack roll equal to the armor's item bonus to your AC and an item bonus to damage equal to double that amount."
I parse that last bit as saying if you were wearing +2 full plate, it would provide a +8 (+6 base full plate +2 rune) bonus to attack and +16 bonus to damage. Which is crazy awesome for this scenario, because you're pretty much guaranteed to escape from the Cave Worm.
So yeah...if you know you're facing creatures with swallow whole, that rune is amazing.
Personally I actually hadn't found many armor runes I like, so putting this one on wouldn't be a big deal to me, but it's also very niche.
They surely just intended the item bonus from your fundamental rune and forgot that the baseline armor benefit is itself a substantial nonmagical item bonus.
They surely just intended the item bonus from your fundamental rune and forgot that the baseline armor benefit is itself a substantial nonmagical item bonus.
Maybe, but that's not what's written.
And consider it's a pretty niche property rune to have to run around with taking up property runes slots....I guess in my mind it's nice for it to actually work well to help extricate you from such consuming situations.
Although I will admit that armor runes are all pretty niche to begin with, so there's not a lot of good competition.
Legendary group shower scene afterwards.
In PF1 I had players who wanted their PCs to get swallowed, especially the Rogues and others who could dish out lots of Sneak Attack damage and not waste time on positioning.
But yeah, sounds like one of the just-barely moments that seem to arise often in PF2. With so many variables, that's astounding (if true that is, since sampling biases toward success stories).
Legendary group shower scene afterwards.
The incident that is never spoken of again by the characters.
The bad news: the DM isn't thrilled with the idea of Greater Oil of Weightlessness or a Dawnsilver Bastard Sword due to physics.
The good news: I didn't escape, despite trying repeatedly. The rogue who got swallowed round 2 never managed to escape. The cleric who got swallowed round 3 never managed to escape. The druid got the Worm to crit fail on a Cone of Cold and that was able to finish it off so everyone lived.
They're okay with wizards throwing magical fireballs but the magical oil that makes your weapon light bulk is a problem?
And a Dawnsilver bastard sword is literally allowed by the rules, and would be light bulk, and weirdly usable when swallowed whole.
Anyways, glad it worked out ultimately but that sounds like a nail biter of a situation.
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The bad news: the DM isn't thrilled with the idea of Greater Oil of Weightlessness or a Dawnsilver Bastard Sword due to physics.
The good news: I didn't escape, despite trying repeatedly. The rogue who got swallowed round 2 never managed to escape. The cleric who got swallowed round 3 never managed to escape. The druid got the Worm to crit fail on a Cone of Cold and that was able to finish it off so everyone lived.
They're okay with wizards throwing magical fireballs but the magical oil that makes your weapon light bulk is a problem?
And a Dawnsilver bastard sword is literally allowed by the rules, and would be light bulk, and weirdly usable when swallowed whole.
I get it. Bulk is supposed to count both as weight and general wieldability. Making a bastard sword lighter doesn't make it easier to swing it around in a tightly confined space. I'm thinking of that scene in Kill Bill Volume 2 where they're trying to use katanas inside a motor home. Didn't work so well.
To be clear, I'm not saying I'd disallow the aforementioned options.
But I get it.
Edit: I hate "wizards throwing fireballs" and "magic literally exists" being the comebacks for trying to apply any realism to Pathfinder.
Sure, we take it for granted that magic exists in the world, but it's not like we throw out all semblance of physics or Mechanics because of it. Especially in situations where magic isn't being employed.
Would an aluminum bastard sword be easier to use inside of an living sleeping bag of a monster than a steel one? As not a swordsman, I'd guess 'not really'.
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I guess my issue is applying realism as a reason to shut down something a character would otherwise be allowed to do, especially in a situation where they're at a big disadvantage just isn't the kind of GMing I like as a player or like to do as a GM.
I hate realism as an argument to shut down too many things when the non-magical characters have to exist next to magic.\
At a certain point, it's not about "does this or doesn't this make sense" it's more about "the rules allow this" despite it being unrealistic.
If the rules were unclear or the result was somehow very imbalanced, then I'd lean on "realism" to decide how to adjudicate it.
But the rules are quite clear actually, and they don't lead to any crazy outcome other than that a player character might be able to use their main weapon when swallowed whole giving them a reasonable chance to cut themselves out of being swallowed. None of that feels like a problem to me, since you would have had to purchased the Oil or Mithral/Dawnsilver weapon in advance. You can't retroactively have those items to get you out of such a situation.
So yeah, my problem isn't that your logic is wrong, it's that trying to apply the logic of "realism" in the first place is wrong.
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I guess my issue is applying realism as a reason to shut down something a character would otherwise be allowed to do, especially in a situation where they're at a big disadvantage just isn't the kind of GMing I like as a player or like to do as a GM.
I hate realism as an argument to shut down too many things when the non-magical characters have to exist next to magic.\
At a certain point, it's not about "does this or doesn't this make sense" it's more about "the rules allow this" despite it being unrealistic.
If the rules were unclear or the result was somehow very imbalanced, then I'd lean on "realism" to decide how to adjudicate it.
But the rules are quite clear actually, and they don't lead to any crazy outcome other than that a player character might be able to use their main weapon when swallowed whole giving them a reasonable chance to cut themselves out of being swallowed. None of that feels like a problem to me, since you would have had to purchased the Oil or Mithral/Dawnsilver weapon in advance. You can't retroactively have those items to get you out of such a situation.
So yeah, my problem isn't that your logic is wrong, it's that trying to apply the logic of "realism" in the first place is wrong.
I'm far more interested in verisimilitude than realism in fantasy games. As long as what's being done doesn't break the verisimilitude, I'm ok with it. A sword being light being used in a worm stomach wouldn't bother me.