Starfinder time pressure feels more intense vs Pathfinder

[WatersLethe]

In brief: Science fiction settings tend to encourage faster paced action, which makes resting for 8+ hours to recover resources less narratively satisfying than in Fantasy.

In boxer: What I've found since at least as early as SF1 is that our group tends to instinctively assume a more strict background ticking clock when we're playing in a modern or futuristic setting. With cell-phones, email, security cameras, automated alert systems, internet, software assisted background checks, faster modes of travel... getting your objectives done as quick as possible always seemed to feel much more urgent. Missions also tend to be more complex with more moving parts (robotics megacorp factory infiltration versus cave full of skeletons), and reducing time spent on them reduces unexpected variables.

In our SF2 playtesting this trend has continued, and what it has meant is that spellcasters run out of spells (at least at lower levels so far) with much more regularity. This is exacerbated by the lack of staves giving you a reliable source of extra slots.

In Fantasy settings, news travels at the speed of horse, we have expectations of things like hunting for your own food, making camp, and talking around a campfire. The world turns at the pace of the seasons. Resting for a day or more feels a whole lot more acceptable in a wider range of situations in classical fantasy.

I wonder if it might be worthwhile to build in a spell slot recharge mechanic so that long adventuring days aren't so punishing in Starfinder. I certainly don't want to force Starfinder to adhere to the narrative expectations of Pathfinder, and I don't want casters to feel spell starved.

Thoughts?

[Mangaholic13]

WatersLethe wrote:

In brief: Science fiction settings tend to encourage faster paced action, which makes resting for 8+ hours to recover resources less narratively satisfying than in Fantasy.

In boxer: What I've found since at least as early as SF1 is that our group tends to instinctively assume a more strict background ticking clock when we're playing in a modern or futuristic setting. With cell-phones, email, security cameras, automated alert systems, internet, software assisted background checks, faster modes of travel... getting your objectives done as quick as possible always seemed to feel much more urgent. Missions also tend to be more complex with more moving parts (robotics megacorp factory infiltration versus cave full of skeletons), and reducing time spent on them reduces unexpected variables.

In our SF2 playtesting this trend has continued, and what it has meant is that spellcasters run out of spells (at least at lower levels so far) with much more regularity. This is exacerbated by the lack of staves giving you a reliable source of extra slots.

In Fantasy settings, news travels at the speed of horse, we have expectations of things like hunting for your own food, making camp, and talking around a campfire. The world turns at the pace of the seasons. Resting for a day or more feels a whole lot more acceptable in a wider range of situations in classical fantasy.

I wonder if it might be worthwhile to build in a spell slot recharge mechanic so that long adventuring days aren't so punishing in Starfinder. I certainly don't want to force Starfinder to adhere to the narrative expectations of Pathfinder, and I don't want casters to feel spell starved.

Thoughts?

Not to be rude, but this sounds more like a problem regarding your play group rather than with Starfinder.

Maybe what your group needs to do is NOT assume you're racing against the clock. Even with all the technology, there is still a human (or nonhuman) element that could give characters time to breathe.

Or, you could have your GM rule that your casters only need an hour or 2 of uninterrupted rest to regain all their spell slots?

[WatersLethe]

Mangaholic13 wrote:

Not to be rude, but this sounds more like a problem regarding your play group rather than with Starfinder.

Maybe what your group needs to do is NOT assume you're racing against the clock. Even with all the technology, there is still a human (or nonhuman) element that could give characters time to breathe.

I want to push back on this. Racing against the clock feels correct from a narrative standpoint, at least to my group. Forcing the story to move slower just so that it fits in with the mechanical construct of spell recovery, which works well in fantasy settings, would be detrimental.

Do you find that in your games you have equal expectations about time pressure in SciFi vs Fantasy? I'd be interested to know if my assumption that SciFi being inherently more time-pressurey is false.

Mangaholic13 wrote:

Or, you could have your GM rule that your casters only need an hour or 2 of uninterrupted rest to regain all their spell slots?

I would like to suggest that there should be an in-world, RAW way for a GM to do that. Some kind of GM-controlled, use-limited pocket hyperbolic time chamber, or some rare drug, or a break-in-an-emergency mana crystal.

[Driftbourne]

Really depends on the group, there's always downtime when drift traveling. I've played in groups that just skipped to "and you arrive at your destination." I've been in other groups that use that time to do a lot of role-playing between the PCs. In one game The GM let the party take a vacation and go to Song Bird Station to see a concert.

At least in Starfinder Society scenarios there rarely is a need for an 8-hour rest.

The spell slot recharge mechanic in Starfinder is "Cast Gun" I've come close a few times but I have never ran out of spells in Starfinder.

You are right about how travel is so different from what it is in PF2e, but that's also why PF2e has huge books covering just one area of some continent, whereas SF has lots of locations with less info because there is no need to connect all the dots to get from point a to point b. Also, travel is less interesting in SF because having environmental protections takes a lot of the survival part of traveling over land.

[moosher12]

The way I see it. People still need proper sleep time. For example, when I play STALKER 2, I sleep every night, and I sleep for 8 hours. We don't always think of sleep because many games ignore it, but in the end, it is the sort of thing people have to deal with.

[Kishmo]

I think what you have is not a Starfinder- or Science Fantasy-wide problem, but rather a game tone, or perhaps game theme, problem. If you're playing a lot of corporate espionage, dystopian cityscape, or cyberpunk-y kinds of stories - yeah, that stuff goes quickly. Planet-wide infospheres and digital actions mean that everything could move really quickly.

Maybe you should try and lean out of those kinds of stories, and try some other ones where timing maybe isn't so important? A long voyage through the Drift to the Vast where you've got nothing to do for weeks, or helping xenodruids cleanse a blighted icecap on Aballon that could span months or more, a slow-paced space-cattle drive on Akiton where a hungry predator is slowly picking off one head of space-cow every week, or who knows what else!

To borrow from the upcoming Galaxy Guide's ideas - we've heard the Star Friends talk about sections in the book giving toolboxes for how to run different kinds of stories in Starfinder. Maybe it's time to veer away from a Dystopian or High Tech story, and instead try a Fantasy, Into the Unknown, or "Weird?" story, instead! See if that changes peoples' assumptions, and the narrative tone?

[Driftbourne]

I'm playing in one of the playtest adventures right now, and the GM at one section told us as long as everyone is having fun you can stay here as long as you like, that's not something I'm used to hearing in organized play scenarios, it's a nice change of pace, I'm thinking we can get at least 2 or 3 days out of that location.

[Milo v3]

People normally still sleep in most sci-fi, the game does not expect "rest for a day". It expects for some level of rest between days.

This isn't a matter of genre. Most fantasy games I run generally have time contstraints as well.

I do think 8 hours is optimistic though, and feel like 'daily-attrition' pacing mechanics are a poor fit for PF/SF style adventures to begin with.

[Zoken44]

Yeah, I'm Afraid I disagree with WatersLethe as well. I think that is more a vibe that is write for your table, rather than the genre as a whole. And that's good, if that's the pace an vibe you all enjoy for your Starfinder game, great, you're playing correctly (because you're having fun) but I don't think that's universal to the genre.

[keftiu]

Sci-fi is the main genre I run, in dozens of rulesets, and I've never once felt like everyone was or should be more hurried than they are in other genres. I wouldn't use this as a reason to disrupt compatibility between SF2 and PF2.

[Perpdepog]

WatersLethe wrote:

I would like to suggest that there should be an in-world, RAW way for a GM to do that. Some kind of GM-controlled, use-limited pocket hyperbolic time chamber, or some rare drug, or a break-in-an-emergency mana crystal.

I'd advise against this. Once your resting mechanic becomes a tangible resource then some players are going to try collecting as much as they can, especially if they have top-level spell slots they want to keep novaing down encounters with. Making it GM-controlled doesn't really solve that problem in my experience, it just shifts the arena from said player trying to get an advantage by gaming the story to trying to get an advantage by gaming, or arguing with, the GM. Making the resource something intangible that can't really be hoarded, like time, makes that harder to do.

I'll also echo what others have said and say I haven't really noticed any major difference in the feel of story pacing in the couple sci fi games I've played in, chiefly Cyberpunk Red, Starfinder 1E, and Stars Without Number. Heck, I'm playing in a Cyberpunk game right now and, while we are on a bit of a time crunch, it's still felt pretty natural to stop adventuring when it gets too late and we've run out of leads, have an evening's downtime, and get back to running the next day.

I honestly think that just changing your frame around what counts as a rest will work great for your group, from the sounds of things.

[moosher12]

I mean, there IS an in-game solution for this: It's called a Ring of Sustenance. A Level 7 item that reduces time to sleep from 8 hours to 2 hours (and eliminates the need to eat). Should be about 3250 credits. Games are compatible, after all.

If time is such a big deal, and the PCs need to minimize time, let those items be available to your players. They might either be mass-produced modern versions (potentially at lower cost at your will), or give them access to some traditional magic craftsman. Starfinder may be modern, but the same way we still have specialists who practice medieval and rennaisance crafting practices, similar traditionalists might have found their niches in the corners of Absalom Station, or other planet you're hosting your present game on.

Alternatively, the way a sponsor can give you a ship, a sponsor might give them the rings to ensure an efficient mission.

[Dargoth876]

WatersLethe wrote:

Do you find that in your games you have equal expectations about time pressure in SciFi vs Fantasy? I'd be interested to know if my assumption that SciFi being inherently more time-pressurey is false.

I dont see that much difference between PF2 and SF in time pressure. When you are in a dungeon be it in fantasy or scifi, the pressure is the same. In fact PF2 put more pressure on casters than SF1 since it is all about your highest spell slots, but that is the system and it is replicated in SF2. When you are expected to teleport in and out...

In fact, starship travel implies a mandatory downtime you don't have on horses.

[Driftbourne]

WatersLethe wrote:

we have expectations of things like hunting for your own food, making camp, and talking around a campfire.

I've eaten more food in Starfinder than in Pathfinder, I make popcorn during starship battles, eat sports protein bars (field rations) during 10-minute breaks, or eat protein bars to help with stress when I have bad luck. In Starfinder you're more likely to be offered strange food that might make you sick. In a scenario we encounter fresh cheese my ysoki character had his cheeks full the whole adventure and tried to get more cheese as part of any social encounter.

The end of scenarios can be turned into happy hour where the party goes out for pizza and drinks. If you want to have happy hour around a campfire you can go to a VR arcade.

Hunting for the right food involves skill checks to find a restaurant on the infosphere. Showing up without reservations can also be its own encounter, as is dealing with angry chefs.

In Starfinder, about the only time hunting and eating around a campfire feels like it does in PF2e is if your starship crashes...

[Claxon]

I'm not familiar with how SF2 rules have changed because I just haven't taken the time to familiarize myself.

But what I can say from playing SF1 is that caster in my group regularly cast "Gun!". That's right, they did not cast spells every round, sometimes not even every combat, and I don't think you're supposed to.

Starfinder 1 casters are more like 1/2 casters from PF1. And I assume that tradition has continue (I could definitely be wrong). But Starfinder casters have access to armor that isn't substantially worse than worse non-casters get. They get access to gun use at about the same level, though usually lack class features to enhance their gun use.

I mention all this to say, spells (to me) in Starfinder are meant to augment your capabilities, it's not meant for you to blast spells every round.

[Zoken44]

The casters we've seen are full casters, and in fact have the same spell-slot count as Sorcerers and Oracles (four slots per rank). However, they do have the access to guns like you mentioned which could definitely shift the meta and make utility cantrips more common, at least at lower levels.

[Claxon]

If the casters we've seen are all like PF2 casters (which makes sense) then I suspect that, while not being as effective lower level spells slots are still valid for blasting. Though control spells tend not to be very effective unless they're your top slot.

I assume they have cantrips, which will also help (and maybe replace) gun use to an extent. Or maybe to your point people will take more utility cantrips since they have a reliable damage source.

[BigNorseWolf]

Its the travel.

In D&D you have weeks by horseback. What can an hour or two matter?

In starfinder you're dropping in by ship. You better be able to go save the space prince before that pizza his kidnapers order gets there.

[Claxon]

I feel like the easy solution here if a group has problems with spell casters not having enough staying power is for a GM to be generous with spell gems/wands.

Assuming that spell gems function more like wands in PF2, wherein you get 1 spell per day (but it's always the same spell) or even just the way spell gems used to work where it's "spell-in-a-can" can be the solution to the perceived time crunch

[Perpdepog]

Claxon wrote:

I feel like the easy solution here if a group has problems with spell casters not having enough staying power is for a GM to be generous with spell gems/wands.

Assuming that spell gems function more like wands in PF2, wherein you get 1 spell per day (but it's always the same spell) or even just the way spell gems used to work where it's "spell-in-a-can" can be the solution to the perceived time crunch

IIRC, from what I remember of the playtest, spell gems function like scrolls, and I believe wands were mostly replaced by plug-and-play spell chips.

[Justnobodyfqwl]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Its the travel.

In D&D you have weeks by horseback. What can an hour or two matter?

In starfinder you're dropping in by ship. You better be able to go save the space prince before that pizza his kidnapers order gets there.

I think this is the real crux of it, far more than any particular game mechanics.

More technology just implies more access to transportation and communication - more readily accessible, less expensive, and more everpresent in everyday life.

[Claxon]

Perpdepog wrote:

Claxon wrote:

I feel like the easy solution here if a group has problems with spell casters not having enough staying power is for a GM to be generous with spell gems/wands.

Assuming that spell gems function more like wands in PF2, wherein you get 1 spell per day (but it's always the same spell) or even just the way spell gems used to work where it's "spell-in-a-can" can be the solution to the perceived time crunch

IIRC, from what I remember of the playtest, spell gems function like scrolls, and I believe wands were mostly replaced by plug-and-play spell chips.

Either way, a group/GM who finds that their caster's spell slots aren't enough to deal with the perceived time pressure could have the situation remedied by a generous helping of both.

[BigNorseWolf]

In starfinder 1 the general advice was get a long arm or bigger gun and cast bullet to extend your slots. Starfinder 2 pistols don't seem to hold up. I think you're supposed to use cantrips.

Casters in PF2 just feel bad to me. I have one utility spell that i need in case of emergencies and then only two spells to actually cast besides cantrips.

[Driftbourne]

Something else to keep in mind "Cast Gun" isn't just about saving spells it's also a way to diversity damage types, and in SF2e with the 3-action economy, many spells cost 2 actions so having a gun gives you an option for a 1 action attack. I used a gun in the play test when I needed to use 2 move actions to get into position and then cast gun, then the next round was able to cast gun and a spell.

["Dr." Cupi]

I have played stories or scenarios that felt the time crunch. I have played others that did not. There is no consistent prevalence between sci fi vs straight fantasy.

A great example of no time constraints sci fi is the Starfinder ap horizons of the vast (I think that's right). Basically a kingdom building Starfinder ap. Huge time scales.

All of that said, depending on the story, I can see a number of times constraint stories as low hanging fruit in sci fi. The speed of information transfer can cause short timetables. Need to steal a thing from person A? The response time between reinforcements coming or authorities coming is faster. But in that same vein, you could have to find an apple sized object on some jungle planet in another system.

It is possible there is a lack of context presented or acknowledged. There is also research time which is non zero. Heists very often require set up.