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I'm planning to play a caster and would like to add the Aid ability to my tool box. I've heard good things about One for All, but why what makes it good? I was searching quite a bit and the best way to aid that I found was through Tillers Aid. What's the hype about One For All? My plan is to aid my allies attack roll so he benefit from the +3 or +4 Crit bonus would One For All allow me to do that?
You are comparing a level 1 Common feat with a level 10 Uncommon one.
Also, Tiller's Aid will ask you to roll whatever skill you manage to use, preventing you to get higher than +2 in a lot of occasions when One For All uses Diplomacy and as such always get to the max bonus (if you max Diplomacy, obviously). And sometimes, you won't be able to Aid at all as you won't have any way to Aid when One For All allows you to Aid at 30ft. no matter what as long as you can speak.One For All is in my opinion better than Tiller's Aid, taking the level difference into account.
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The Aid action rule states:
"Proximity: You don't necessarily need to be next to your ally to aid, though you must be in a reasonable location to help them both when you set up and when you take the reaction."
From the Aid rules:
"a character usually needs to be next to their ally or a foe to Aid the ally in attacking the foe"
One for all:
"Designate an ally within 30 feet"
If you want to use aid as a charisma caster, like a sorcerer or bard, you usually don't want to be in melee.
From the Aid action rule:
"When you use your Aid reaction, attempt a skill check or attack roll of a type decided by the GM"
For melee attacks that is usually an attack roll of your own, although the GM can allow other skills.
To summarize: One for all allows you to use diplomacy for everything, and does that on range.
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I did something similar with my Bard (max CHA and Diplomacy):
Multiclass as a Swashbuckler to get One for All at Level 4
Take the Helpful Halfling ancestry feat to get +4 starting at level 9
and (eventually) take the Bellflower Tiller Dedication and Tiller's Aid for NO PREP (i.e. you can Aid on the fly so long as an ally is within 30' feet)
+4 circumstance bonus from Level 9, when you have Master Diplomacy and Helpful Halfling (since you're almost certain to roll a critical success, so long as you don't roll a 1!), once per round using your reaction - not bad, but not over-powered given the heavy investment = MAX 1 skill, 1 9th Level ancestry feat, 3 class feats (Swashbuckler, One for All and another so I could pick up another dedication), and 2 more class feats (Tiller dedication and Tiller's Aid). We were not using free archetype, so it cost me by ALL my class feats (2, 4, 6, 8 and 10) for the first half of the campaign.
And since it's a circumstance bonus, it stacks with courageous anthem's status bonus, so you can effectively provide a +5 to one attack.
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You can't combine Tiller's Aid and One For All. It's one or the other.
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To summarize the points that I am seeing and agreeing with:
The Aid reaction by default requires:
* Spending an action preparing to Aid first.
* Describing a way to provide assistance to a specific task.
* Deciding with the GM for an appropriate type of check to roll for that assistance, such as a skill check or attack bonus check.
* Being able to provide that assistance - such as being within reach and being able to act.
Tiller's Aid allows you to use the Aid reaction without needing preparations. But it still has all of the other restrictions of Aid including deciding on a check type to use and being within range of providing the assistance.
One For All allows you to remove all of the other restrictions of Aid. You already have the narrative description of how you are providing aid. The check type is permanently set to be a Diplomacy check. And you are always able to use Aid to any designated ally within 30 feet.
The two are mutually exclusive to use though. One For All is a replacement action to use for preparing to Aid. If you don't use the One For All action, then you don't get the benefits of One For All. You could instead use Tiller's Aid to use the Aid reaction without any preparation action, but it would be the standard Aid reaction, not the one modified by One For All since you didn't use that action to prepare to aid with.
For my own analysis:
If you are only wanting Aid for a specific purpose then you may be able to build Tiller's Aid to be preferable since it doesn't cost an action during your turn to use.
For example, if you are only interested in using Aid on attack rolls. You could do so in melee range and probably could do so at range using a ranged weapon with Reload 0 such as a shortbow. A martial character could be decent at it. A Fighter could be good at it because of their higher proficiency. A spellcaster would not be as good at it because of the comparatively lower weapon proficiency, but since the DC is typically a static DC 15 even a spellcaster can crit on that reliably at higher levels.
One For All is generally better because you only ever have to buy proficiency in one skill. And being a skill, you can always buy proficiency in it - you are not dependent on class features to raise your attack bonus proficiency, for example. One For All uses a Diplomacy check so having a higher CHA bonus is also of value and makes it more appealing to characters that already want to have a high or maximum CHA attribute such as Thaumaturge, many subclasses of Swashbuckler, and Charisma-based spellcasters. But again, the static DC 15 means that even with a minimal CHA bonus, getting a crit result is not unexpected at higher levels.
Note that "static DC" is not accurate. While One For All isn't likely to run into as much variation as you can normally see applied, based on the specifics of an Aid attempt, there's no reason that you wouldn't expect DC increases from repetition to still apply if you're using it for attacks in the same combat.
Crits still become pretty common, but it definitely affects how common and how early they're that common.
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Note that "static DC" is not accurate. While One For All isn't likely to run into as much variation as you can normally see applied, based on the specifics of an Aid attempt, there's no reason that you wouldn't expect DC increases from repetition to still apply if you're using it for attacks in the same combat.
Crits still become pretty common, but it definitely affects how common and how early they're that common.
That's true.
But it is going to take a long time for '15 + penalty for repeated use' to reach the 40-ish range that a level 17 creature that the party is fighting has for their AC.
Even a spellcaster using their spellcaster-tier attack bonus for their Aid check shouldn't have difficulty at level 15 critting on the DC 15 check initially. Or even a DC 21 check for a 3rd attempt. It won't happen every time, but it will be reasonably reliable.
So if the GM is jumping immediately to 'I'll set the DC for aiding an attack roll to be the enemy's AC' that is a GM problem.
For my own analysis:
If you are only wanting Aid for a specific purpose then you may be able to build Tiller's Aid to be preferable since it doesn't cost an action during your turn to use.
For example, if you are only interested in using Aid on attack rolls. You could do so in melee range and probably could do so at range using a ranged weapon with Reload 0 such as a shortbow. A martial character could be decent at it. A Fighter could be good at it because of their higher proficiency. A spellcaster would not be as good at it because of the comparatively lower weapon proficiency, but since the DC is typically a static DC 15 even a spellcaster can crit on that reliably at higher levels.
One For All is generally better because you only ever have to buy proficiency in one skill. And being a skill, you can always buy proficiency in it - you are not dependent on class features to raise your attack bonus proficiency, for example. One For All uses a Diplomacy check so having a higher CHA bonus is also of value and makes it more appealing to characters that already want to have a high or maximum CHA attribute such as Thaumaturge, many subclasses of Swashbuckler, and Charisma-based spellcasters. But again, the static DC 15 means that even with a minimal CHA bonus, getting a crit result is not unexpected at higher levels.
I also includes that normal Aid checks doesn't allows to “encourage” so it's hard to get a diplomacy or any other charisma attributes skills to Aid:
It’s up to you whether someone’s preparation is enough to let them Aid an ally. The preparation should be specific to the task at hand. Helping someone hold a lockpick steady might be enough preparation to Aid an attempt to Pick a Lock, but just saying you’re going to “encourage” them likely wouldn’t. Second, the character who’s attempting to Aid needs to be in a proper position to help and able to convey any necessary information. Helping a character Climb a wall is pretty tough if the character a PC wishes to Aid is nowhere near them. Similarly, a character usually needs to be next to their ally or a foe to Aid the ally in attacking the foe. You’ll also need to determine how long the preparation takes. Typically, a single action is sufficient to help with a task that’s completed in a single round, but to help someone perform a long-term task, like research, the character has to help until the task is finished.
* The bold is mine
This usually means that if you haven't a concrete way to Aid with a skill so you usually can't Aid with such skill. Sometimes only allowing you an attack roll as option to help your ally what means that it suffers and contribute to MAP (but usually is DC 15 so this is only a real problem during lowest levels).But One for All ignores this restriction allowing you to “encourage” as Aid. Easily ignoring the MAP for all situations required and is 30ft range and gives you panashe.
I see One for All being problematic, I wouldn't be able to cast a spell, inspire courage and Aid. With Tillers Aid I can do all the above. I don't think it's even close...
That is a valid assessment ... for your particular character.
Not something that is generalizable for all characters though. Many other characters are going to find One For All to be the better choice.
In your particular case Courageous Anthem may be more valuable as a 3rd action after a spell because it affects all allies rather than just one of them.
That is one of the nice things about character design in PF2 - there is no 'one true build' answer. Which is better: Tiller's Aid or All For One? The answer is always, 'it depends'.
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Tiller's Aid also gets less attention because it is from a more obscure source and has a much higher bar to access than One For All.
I play at many tables where an uncommon archetype from an early AP requiring membership in a specific organization would be off the table for consideration. (Not to mention an organization that exists to solve a problem that isn't really a thing in Golarian anymore). If that's not true of your table and you think it fits better for your character/build go for it.
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I see One for All being problematic, I wouldn't be able to cast a spell, inspire courage and Aid. With Tillers Aid I can do all the above. I don't think it's even close...
If you want to do it every turn, sure!
I chose One for All on my divine sorcerer to have a reliable third action, it competes with demoralize, shield and moving.
An honorable mention should also go to Fake Out, which, as a lvl 2 feat, is reasonably cheap to archetype and combines very well with the gauntlet bow.
Our Gunslinger in Alkenstar was very effective with it, despite our GM using a level-based DC for aid.
Yeah, having access to Tiller's Aid isn't guaranteed.
You have to be a member of the Bellflower Network, and take the dedication. And as a GM, I'm going to say most characters don't qualify to be members of the Bellflower Network, or at least don't have reason to operate where the game I'm running is set, unless the game happens to be set in Cheliax. You're going to have to come up with some really good reasons why your character is no where near Cheliax and a member of this organization. Further, Tiller's are specifically focused on actively help halfling slaves escape. And unless that's a significant plot point of the campaign, I'm going to question what the character is doing there.
Ultimately, at my table you'd be unlikely to ever have access to the dedication. Whereas One for All is a level 1 skill feat open to anyone who decides to get trained in diplomacy. A very low bar.
You have to be a member of the Bellflower Network, and take the dedication. And as a GM, I'm going to say most characters don't qualify to be members of the Bellflower Network, or at least don't have reason to operate where the game I'm running is set, unless the game happens to be set in Cheliax. You're going to have to come up with some really good reasons why your character is no where near Cheliax and a member of this organization. Further, Tiller's are specifically focused on actively help halfling slaves escape. And unless that's a significant plot point of the campaign, I'm going to question what the character is doing there.
Not only this feat is given as reward by the Bellflower Network when you help and earn its trust. Not only when you help to free halfling slaves.
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Yeah, I guess I was unclear because I didn't go into the details.
You have to become a member of the Bellflower Network, which would naturally entail needing to earn their trust, presumably by helping them.
So if I'm starting a campaign at level 1, you're going to have a very hard time justifying why you would be associated with the Bellflowers already, and be in the campaign (again unless it takes place in Cheliax).
And then likely during the course of the campaign have no interaction with the Bellflowers or work on things they care about (freeing slaves).
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So if the GM is jumping immediately to 'I'll set the DC for aiding an attack roll to be the enemy's AC' that is a GM problem.
It's not really a GM problem: it's explicitly allowed in the aid rules. The GM can set the DC to whatever they want based on the difficulty of doing the aid, and "I'm going to help you hit Treerazor" is probably harder than "I'm going to help you hit that mindless zombie."
Considering how large a bonus Aid can become, the idea that you should just auto-critically succeed every time at high level no matter what you're doing is kind of silly (though Uplifting Overture does that at Legendary Performance).
So if the GM is jumping immediately to 'I'll set the DC for aiding an attack roll to be the enemy's AC' that is a GM problem.It's not really a GM problem: it's explicitly allowed in the aid rules. The GM can set the DC to whatever they want based on the difficulty of doing the aid,
It is explicitly allowed and recommended against in the rules.
The full line of rules text is: "The typical DC is 15, but the GM might adjust this DC for particularly hard or easy tasks."
"I'm going to help you hit Treerazor" is probably harder than "I'm going to help you hit that mindless zombie."
Why? Why is it particularly harder to assist an ally when you and your ally are level 20 characters than when you are level 15 character or level 2 characters?
Why is it based on what enemy you are trying to help them to hit?
So if the GM is jumping immediately to 'I'll set the DC for aiding an attack roll to be the enemy's AC' that is a GM problem.It's not really a GM problem: it's explicitly allowed in the aid rules. The GM can set the DC to whatever they want based on the difficulty of doing the aid,It is explicitly allowed and recommended against in the rules.
The full line of rules text is: "The typical DC is 15, but the GM might adjust this DC for particularly hard or easy tasks."
"I'm going to help you hit Treerazor" is probably harder than "I'm going to help you hit that mindless zombie."Why? Why is it particularly harder to assist an ally when you and your ally are level 20 characters than when you are level 15 character or level 2 characters?
Why is it based on what enemy you are trying to help them to hit?
Where's the "recommended against" part? I read that exceptions exist with no recommendation from making exceptions (nor for them).
ETA: I think One For All is overrated, but that's only because people recommend stat, build, and skill changes disproportionate to its benefits. If it costs only two feats on a diplomatic PC who's not using an Archetype AND you need a good third action & Reaction, it's as solid as there is. And party members will appreciate it, no doubt.
Trouble is, Bard's do have a good third action, a Composition, but given how often one has to move, cast Shield, or otherwise participate, there can be a spare action which One For All can consistently fill in a valuable way. How often that is will depend on party composition and forces beyond your control, though you can get a feel for that after several sessions.
I'd likely lean into a 1-action Focus Spell via Archetype, but that's an irregular choice w/ its own costs.
Yes the game lacks of orientation of how the "typical DC" should work.
The GM may improve it only when the task is hard (+2), very hard (+5) and Incredibly hard (+10) or the correct is improve this DC with the level (specially now after remaster where it's the same of lvl 1 DC)?
Aid DC was always strange. It was pretty hard for a lvl 1 character (now is more easy) and incredibly easier when you reach level 10 (not including bonuses) basically no more having critical failures. What always was strange for me.
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I liked One for All.
Reasons:
1. Diplomacy is good to build up for a charisma class. It has other uses than providing aid on top of being good for aid.
2. One action and a reaction for a caster is a fine use for a third action and reaction
3. You can build up the aid action real big if you are a halfling or a human adding a circumstance bonus to boost the Aid action with ancestry feats.
4. The circumstance bonus from aid stacks with most other bonuses including Courageous Anthem.
5. It uses a single skill you build up that has other uses. Not sure Bellflower Tiller allows Aid with a single skill as I don't know that feat well. If you have to roll skill checks per the DM's choice for Tiller's Aid, then you leave a lot open for the DM to decide what works or not.
I found one for all good on a bard. It stacks at higher level when you get things like the free Composition Cantrip with the level 18 feat that makes you quickened allowing you to cast a Composition Cantrip with the extra action. Then you can easily stack Courageous Anthem, maybe Lingering Comp it or Fortissimo, then use One for All, then cast True Target, do nutty bonuses.
And with a high Diplomacy, you can be Mr. Make Friends too or pick up the Bon Mot feat to set up your own spells.
One for All has a lot of synergy over the levels.
It is explicitly allowed and recommended against in the rules.
The full line of rules text is: "The typical DC is 15, but the GM might adjust this DC for particularly hard or easy tasks."
It is absolutely not recommended against. Nothing in the rules recommends against it. Outside the rules, it's been common advice for a long time because the flat DC was never a good idea. It leads to situations where aid is actually harder then the base task at low level (though less frequent now it can still happen) and literally impossible to fail no matter what you're doing later.
Hell, I remember The Rules Lawyer doing a video where this exact thing was pretty common.
Why? Why is it particularly harder to assist an ally when you and your ally are level 20 characters than when you are level 15 character or level 2 characters? Why is it based on what enemy you are trying to help them to hit?
You're trying to do something that is more difficult, so providing meaningful assistance is also more difficult. This is a problem with aid in general, really.
Do you think providing meaningful aid to someone applying first aid to a minor cut is just as difficult as providing meaningful aid to someone performing surgery is? Because it's really, really not. One of these things is far easier to help with than the other.
Of course in practice the success rate won't change that much with a scaling DC, because you're getting better at the skill at the same time. And if you do a lower level task, your odds will be going up pretty quickly so if you're attempting to aid something easy, you're basically never going to fail anyway.
But yes: the idea that "I'm level 15 therefore its literally impossible for me to not assist on any task I attempt to assist at" is frankly nonsensical. And that includes trying to help someone hit a Demon Lord: that's probably a task beyond a low level character shouting slogans.
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Yes the game lacks of orientation of how the "typical DC" should work.
The GM may improve it only when the task is hard (+2), very hard (+5) and Incredibly hard (+10) or the correct is improve this DC with the level (specially now after remaster where it's the same of lvl 1 DC)?
The GM isn't limited to using those adjustments. It says they can adjust it if they decide it's "particularly hard or particularly easy", which doesn't really mean anything because strictly speaking any high level task is "particularly hard": it just so happens the PCs at that point are among the most skilled people on Golarian and thus can do things that would be impossible for ordinary people.
But the GM is always empowered to set whatever DC they want for a given task, and this is no different. Though it's a good idea to have some kind of standard so that players know what to expect.
Aid DC was always strange. It was pretty hard for a lvl 1 character (now is more easy) and incredibly easier when you reach level 10 (not including bonuses) basically no more having critical failures. What always was strange for me.
Aid never should have had a flat DC. It was a bad idea originally and is a bad idea now. It makes no sense whatsoever in a lot of cases, both in the "this is somehow harder than doing the task itself" cases and in the "somehow a level 5 character that is completely incapable of actually doing this task finds it trivially easy to assist doing it" cases.
The worst offender is something that is proficiency gated, which aid doesn't account for either, leading to situations where a PC can assist with something that they lack the training/understanding to even attempt to do on their own. I've been in that situation in real life where people that don't know what they're doing try and help, and their "help" is not very helpful.
This is a thing that requires a lot of adjudication otherwise you can get some really nonsensical outcomes. Aid itself understands that since you are supposed to explain how you're helping and the GM can determine if its actually helpful, but One For All and Uplifting Overture both short-circuit that somewhat, though neither of them technically stops the GM from saying "nope that isn't helpful".
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Would anyone even use Aid during combat if it wasn't so easy? People barely used it as is.
Normal Aid requires 1 action and a reaction? That's a lot of resource for a minor bonus for most levels and becoming quite good for one attack at higher level. It takes from your own actions giving another character a boost to hit good enough for you to give up two actions and a reaction?
One for All makes it good because using Diplomacy for everything at a 30 foot range is real nice.
Normally, aiding an attack roll the DM can require you be in range of the monster or enemy. Then use an attack roll for aid. Then use your reaction, which many martial classes have a use for at higher level, to provide a bonus to hit.
I rarely see aid used by anyone but a caster using All For One taking Swashbuckler archetype. Most martials don't waste time using aid. They have other stuff to do like raise a shield or attacking with reaction strikes themselves.
Making it harder would make people use it less. That's why I think they dropped it to 15. The designers probably saw Aid was this rarely used action that had a pretty high action cost for a marginal benefit that was really dependent on the opportunity cost of the class using it.
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At higher levels, the opportunity cost for spending an action also become higher, so Aid needs to become more valuable. Being a basic add to numbers, it seems straightforward to add more via more crit successes and fewer failures. It's not straightforward though, but to do otherwise makes Aid too complex for such a simple concept. Because aren't you a force multiplier on a greater effect from your companion? Or not if it's simple lock picking. Which you maybe haven't a clue how to do. And so on, with so many minor factors that'd begin to bog down play. And so we get a flat DC that makes it functional at low levels, and darnright powerful later, though as noted, still a lot of players overlook using it. *shrug*
Yes, a crossbow attack roll. It's more Impressive on a gunslinger, who will become legendary with the crossbow than on a bard who will never get better than Expert (and therefore never provide +3 or +4).
Yes, a crossbow attack roll. It's more Impressive on a gunslinger, who will become legendary with the crossbow than on a bard who will never get better than Expert (and therefore never provide +3 or +4).Is there a way to convert this attack roll aid from a success to a guaranteed critical success like Helpful Halfling can do when Aiding skill checks?
That's another reason One for All is so good. You only need to get one skill to Legendary.
Whereas Tiller's Aid may require a bunch of different skills built up.
You want that +3 or +4, you can get it with one highly useful skill to Legendary.
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It's not straightforward though, but to do otherwise makes Aid too complex for such a simple concept.
Not really.
They could have asked the helper to roll against the same DC, or a slightly lower DC (like DC-5).
And then provide a +2/3/4 bonus as if they crit succeeded on success. Maybe one more on a crit success. I even think that would have been better than current Aid.
Another solution would be to ask to use the action to prepare to Aid only once and then from that moment on you can use your Reaction every round as long as the situation hasn't evolved too much to invalidate your preparation. This buff would compensate the increase in DC.
There are many ways to improve Aid so you can use scaling DC without making it much more complex.
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Is there a way to convert this attack roll aid from a success to a guaranteed critical success like Helpful Halfling can do when Aiding skill checks?
Helpful halfling does not do that (it avoids a -1 on a crit fail and gives a higher bonus when succeeding). Would work with Fake Out though, same as the +4 from Cooperative Nature.
Still, having a lower proficiency in attack rolls as a caster makes it weaker, and gunslingers have their extra bonus on top.|
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I still think this is a great find, the alternative as a Bard is to spend an action and a reaction which is not very good. I'd much rather Inspire than cast two action spell plus Fake out for a consistent +2 circ bonus from 60ft away as you recommend with the gauntlet bow.
Yes, as Fake Out does not target AC you should have good results with it even without martial scaling.
Slingers Readiness is also a nice feat for a caster, for example to get Ten Paces: +2 to initiative and a free action 10 ft step
Would anyone even use Aid during combat if it wasn't so easy? People barely used it as is.
Normal Aid requires 1 action and a reaction? That's a lot of resource for a minor bonus for most levels and becoming quite good for one attack at higher level. It takes from your own actions giving another character a boost to hit good enough for you to give up two actions and a reaction?
One for All makes it good because using Diplomacy for everything at a 30 foot range is real nice.
Normally, aiding an attack roll the DM can require you be in range of the monster or enemy. Then use an attack roll for aid. Then use your reaction, which many martial classes have a use for at higher level, to provide a bonus to hit.
I rarely see aid used by anyone but a caster using All For One taking Swashbuckler archetype. Most martials don't waste time using aid. They have other stuff to do like raise a shield or attacking with reaction strikes themselves.
Making it harder would make people use it less. That's why I think they dropped it to 15. The designers probably saw Aid was this rarely used action that had a pretty high action cost for a marginal benefit that was really dependent on the opportunity cost of the class using it.
Even if it had a higher DC, they would still use it, they just don't have a better use for the reaction.
In fact, the main reason for not using Aid with a character is because they already have an Attack of Oportunity Reactive Strike or a Shield Block or already have a pre-determined use for their third action, such as an Elemental Blast for kineticists.
There is also the fact that Aid is an obscure ability for many players. Many people don't even remember that Aid exists. Others remember it but have difficulty accepting teamwork and prefer to use something that helps them a lot before thinking about helping their teammate, even when using Aid would be more advantageous. And finally, there are those who simply don't know how to help (there is a lack of guidelines for Aid not only on which DC to use in various cases, but also examples of how to use Aid without it overlapping other abilities such as Feint).
As for distance, I think we are basing ourselves on a wrong premise here. Aid does not require being in reach, as according to one of the few guidelines that exist:
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Proximity: You don't necessarily need to be next to your ally to aid, although you must be in a reasonable location to help them both when you set up and when you take the reaction.
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So if you are at range. You can simply aid with a bow or an Elemental Blast attacking toguether with an ally. All that you need is an excuse to find a way to use some skill to Aid an ally and then roll it vs DC 15.
Technically speaking Aid is more efficient than Demoralize, especially after level 7 (Skill: 7 from lvl + 6 from master proficiency + 4/3/2 from attribute/Attack: 7 from lvl + 4 from expert proficiency + 4/3 from attribute + 1 from item bonus) where you can get a bonus equal to or greater than 15 with both your skill or attacks with +1 weapon and your biggest risk is rolling a nat 1 and getting a success instead of a critical success. This in itself is already a stupidly high bonus, and is especially useful for characters who do not have great reactions like AoO/RS and Shield Block, as is the case of most spellcasters and ranged weapon characters.
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So if you are at range. You can simply aid with a bow or an Elemental Blast attacking toguether with an ally. All that you need is an excuse to find a way to use some skill to Aid an ally and then roll it vs DC 15.
I personally don't allow Aid with a bow or Elemental Blast. If you shoot at the enemy, roll your attack as this is no Aid.
All you need is an excuse... and a nice GM. Otherwise, you'll need more than just an excuse.
Technically speaking Aid is more efficient than Demoralize
You can't make such a broad comparison. Demoralize helps everyone who attacks the enemy and debuffs the enemy, Demoralize doesn't use a Reaction, Demoralize has a 30ft. range and crit success at Demoralizing has additional effects (especially with Terrified Retreat at level 7+).
They are distinct actions that should be used in different situations.
At higher levels, the opportunity cost for spending an action also become higher, so Aid needs to become more valuable. Being a basic add to numbers, it seems straightforward to add more via more crit successes and fewer failures. It's not straightforward though, but to do otherwise makes Aid too complex for such a simple concept. Because aren't you a force multiplier on a greater effect from your companion? Or not if it's simple lock picking. Which you maybe haven't a clue how to do. And so on, with so many minor factors that'd begin to bog down play. And so we get a flat DC that makes it functional at low levels, and darnright powerful later, though as noted, still a lot of players overlook using it. *shrug*
This opportunity cost depends much more on your class and build than on your level itself.
A melee fighter may consider that saving his reaction for an AoO/RS is better than using it with Aid and sacrificing his third action, just as fighters with shields tend to prefer using Shield Block even over their AoO/RS in many situations. But if you don't have a good use for a third action, don't have an easy reaction to trigger, or even have a way to use Demoralize, but everyone else is already immune, often granting an ally a +3 or +4 is the best thing you can do.
In any case, I don't think the DC is the problem that makes Aid underused, but rather the action + reaction cost that it brings, which is easily suppressed when the character already has a good use for either of the two.
So if you are at range. You can simply aid with a bow or an Elemental Blast attacking toguether with an ally. All that you need is an excuse to find a way to use some skill to Aid an ally and then roll it vs DC 15.I personally don't allow Aid with a bow or Elemental Blast. If you shoot at the enemy, roll your attack as this is no Aid.
All you need is an excuse... and a nice GM. Otherwise, you'll need more than just an excuse.
Yes, there is that too. Many GMs have difficulty accepting Aid because of its similarity to other actions. Even if the RAW allows it.
A stricter GM with things like:
Many GMs don't like how Aid works and how it overlaps with other actions. And they simply won't accept it unless the player is super creative, has a good way with the gab or beats the GM by explaining how and why the Aid should work, which is RAW, etc. (yes, this is a strategy that many GMs hate, but it works because you either have to accept it or hinder the game, but be careful, you might have trouble playing a new adventure with this GM later).
So this is also another factor why many choose not to use the Aid, once again the DC is not the real problem. In fact, Paizo only lowered the Aid's DC because 20 was too high for level 1, not necessarily because it was being underused.
Technically speaking Aid is more efficient than DemoralizeYou can't make such a broad comparison. Demoralize helps everyone who attacks the enemy and debuffs the enemy, Demoralize doesn't use a Reaction, Demoralize has a 30ft. range and crit success at Demoralizing has additional effects (especially with Terrified Retreat at level 7+).
They are distinct actions that should be used in different situations.
OK, let me correct myself, especially in situations where your enemies have a very high will and/or you don't have that much focus on charisma, Aid is often superior to Demoralize, even because of the high bonus to critical success that can be easily achieved if the typical DC is used.
As for the range, it is relative. Aid itself says that the range is whatever makes sense for the way you are trying to help:
...
Proximity: You don't necessarily need to be next to your ally to aid, although you must be in a reasonable location to help them both when you set up and when you take the reaction.
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Regarding Terrified Retreat, I honestly think it's very relative. While it allows you to trigger movement reactions like AoO/RS, it also means that frontliners may need to spend their actions chasing the target. You don't always want the target to run away, and the target doesn't always have good motivations to return to battle once it've fled, but often players want it dead or want its loot.
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It's not straightforward though, but to do otherwise makes Aid too complex for such a simple concept.
Not really.
They could have asked the helper to roll against the same DC, or a slightly lower DC (like DC-5).
And then provide a +2/3/4 bonus as if they crit succeeded on success. Maybe one more on a crit success. I even think that would have been better than current Aid.
Another solution would be to ask to use the action to prepare to Aid only once and then from that moment on you can use your Reaction every round as long as the situation hasn't evolved too much to invalidate your preparation. This buff would compensate the increase in DC.
There are many ways to improve Aid so you can use scaling DC without making it much more complex.
Exactly. An Easy/Very Easy version of the same DC makes far more sense while being easy to run, because you already have that DC for whatever the action being aided is anyway. It's going to be reliable for anyone actually invested in the skill but doesn't result in "the only way to not critically succeed is to roll a nat 1" being the result for a huge swath of levels.
Would anyone even use Aid during combat if it wasn't so easy? People barely used it as is.
In my experience, the biggest factor stopping people from using Aid is that players forget its a thing they can do because it's not on their sheet. That's it. This even applies to using it for skill checks where the action cost is totally irrelevant and thus there's almost no downside to trying.
It's an action discoverability problem, because its a big game and people forget stuff. I've had a lot of success just reminding the folks standing around doing nothing (or the character without a good reaction and not much to do on their third action) that one of them can try to help out. Doing that a few times resulted in a massive increase in the use of Aid even when I also tell them that I don't use the flat AC (I usually use an Easy version of the DC they are trying to aid).
Making it harder would make people use it less. That's why I think they dropped it to 15. The designers probably saw Aid was this rarely used action that had a pretty high action cost for a marginal benefit that was really dependent on the opportunity cost of the class using it.
They dropped it to 15 because when it was at 20 it trained new players that Aid is bad. New players would try it, find that they're rarely going to to succeed and that the critical failure chance is high, decide that the action sucks, and then never do it again. Meanwhile new GMs didn't know to scale it down to prevent that. It taught people not to bother.
Experienced GMs (or new ones that saw the community's advice telling them to scale it) could avoid that, but it was a terrible default because it didn't work when people are learning the game. 15 fixes that since it's got a reasonable chance of working at level 1.
It doesn't fix the other issues with the action, but it at least puts it in a state where someone who is learning the game is way less likely to have a bad first experience with it.
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Would anyone even use Aid during combat if it wasn't so easy? People barely used it as is.
Normal Aid requires 1 action and a reaction? That's a lot of resource for a minor bonus for most levels and becoming quite good for one attack at higher level. It takes from your own actions giving another character a boost to hit good enough for you to give up two actions and a reaction?
One for All makes it good because using Diplomacy for everything at a 30 foot range is real nice.
Normally, aiding an attack roll the DM can require you be in range of the monster or enemy. Then use an attack roll for aid. Then use your reaction, which many martial classes have a use for at higher level, to provide a bonus to hit.
I rarely see aid used by anyone but a caster using All For One taking Swashbuckler archetype. Most martials don't waste time using aid. They have other stuff to do like raise a shield or attacking with reaction strikes themselves.
Making it harder would make people use it less. That's why I think they dropped it to 15. The designers probably saw Aid was this rarely used action that had a pretty high action cost for a marginal benefit that was really dependent on the opportunity cost of the class using it.
Even if it had a higher DC, they would still use it, they just don't have a better use for the reaction.
In fact, the main reason for not using Aid with a character is because they already have an
Attack of OportunityReactive Strike or a Shield Block or already have a pre-determined use for their third action, such as an Elemental Blast for kineticists.There is also the fact that Aid is an obscure ability for many players. Many people don't even remember that Aid exists. Others remember it but have difficulty accepting teamwork and prefer to use something that helps them a lot before thinking about helping their teammate, even when using Aid would be more advantageous. And finally, there are those who simply don't know how to help (there is a...
This definitely leaves it up to GM caveat.
All For One does not. I prefer the clear rules with All For One than me having to figure out if you can aid a melee attack at range.
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Aid is a complicated game mechanism and underused.
In my experience it is annoying to interrupt another players turn with your own aid roll.
Or annoying to be interrupted by somebody, even if that somebody wants to give you a bonus to hit.
Not really.
At higher level, you want to do other things like move or raise a shield or sustain or use a Reactive Strike or a Champion's Reaction.
It really depends on your other options if you feel like supporting another character. In a multi-target fight, who cares about Aid. Aid is primarily a boss helper.
Then there is the dependence on skill. At expert at best, providing a +2 circumstance bonus for someone else to hit may not do as much as using a Spellshape feat or firing a weapon yourself.
Aid is situationally good, but not so much you want to necessarily use it in place of other powerful actions as you gain more cool stuff at higher level.
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Aid is a complicated game mechanism and underused.
In my experience it is annoying to interrupt another players turn with your own aid roll.
Or annoying to be interrupted by somebody, even if that somebody wants to give you a bonus to hit.
I don't think complicated is the right word here.
For me, it's just a matter of the Aid having been better done by the designers. A general rule explaining how the DC should progress or why it shouldn't progress, more examples of use and their DCs (like the examples that many skill actions receive in their chapters), and so on.
The problem is that Aid today is very loose and left in the hands of the GM to the point that no one knows how to deal with it properly.
GMs don't know which DCs they should use, nor how to deal with situations where Aid is too similar to another existing action.
Players have no legal certainty about how Aid will work unless they negotiate (if they can negotiate, in some situations like PFS this can be a little more difficult) several use cases with the GM in advance, and so they avoid setting up their third action in Aid under the risk of the GM refusing to use it or interpreting it differently from them and looking for other uses for it.
Ultimately, if Paizo works on Aid in a future errata, I believe that most of the doubts and problems will be easily solved.
This definitely leaves it up to GM caveat.
All For One does not. I prefer the clear rules with All For One than me having to figure out if you can aid a melee attack at range.
I agree, I also don't like rules, especially general ones, that are left up to the GM to decide. Each table is different and you never know if what you plan will be well accepted by the GM or not. Sometimes the GM even accepts the way the player intends to use it at first, but after seeing it in practice, he changes the way he deals with it because he feels that it isn't right for him. That was my case with Aid back in Legacy. At first, it was a skill that I thought was fair, after all, DC 20 was difficult and for me it got easier as the players progressed, it became fairer. But as I started to understand the system and the importance of each +1 on the rolls and the levels increased along with the proficiency, I noticed that Aid was becoming increasingly easier to get a critical success result, to the point that I realized that almost any Aid roll was a critical success (around when my players reached level 10). So I talked to my players and said that for a basic ability available to everyone and that can be used by different skills and attacks, even if it takes an action + reaction, it was absurdly effective and easy to use.
That's when I created a houserule where the Aid DC became the skill or attack of the player being helped. This way, I was able to balance the probability well, with players with lower proficiencies being able to help players with higher proficiencies, but with greater difficulty (a less proficient person can help a more proficient person, but the chance of this help being useful is lower) and players with higher proficiencies could help players with lower proficiencies more easily (same idea, a more proficient player in a skill or attack can more easily help a less proficient one). I use this rule to this day.
A stricter GM with things like:
- Using an attack for Aid: You can't use an attack for Aid. After all, you can use your attack as your third action, so no.
- Using a skill for Aid as a distraction: You can Feint, so no.
- Using an intelligence skill to point out a weak point or an opening in the enemy's guard: You didn't use an RK so you don't know how to point out the weak point or you already used an RK so you already received the benefit (or failed) and I won't allow you to use Aid for that.
Yeah, too many of these points could be use always. I'd forbid that.
What I allow:
- At melee range, help another melee character with either an attack roll or an Athletics check (you're hindering the enemy defensive abilities).
- Aid a skill check by performing the same skill, like using Diplomacy to Aid someone's Diplomacy or Medicine to Aid someone's Medicine.
- Aid a skill check by using an alternate skill for the same skill check, like using Crafting to Aid a Thievery check when the check was specifying you could use either Crafting or Thievery.
And that's pretty much it around my table. No shooting to Aid, no shouting to Aid (unless you have One For All), no RK check to Aid. All of these seem too easy to bring up, at that stage I could allow anything.
- Aid a skill check by performing the same skill, like using Diplomacy to Aid someone's Diplomacy or Medicine to Aid someone's Medicine.
- Aid a skill check by using an alternate skill for the same skill check, like using Crafting to Aid a Thievery check when the check was specifying you could use either Crafting or Thievery.
Yes Aid for exploration is way more clear and easier to use and understand. Even the DC you can simply use the same DC of the chalenge.
I also do the same, if a player want to helps another player in exploration to do a thing that can be done only once like Request (I usually don't allow repeated Requests or multi Request checks from different characters in most cases this only annoy the NPC) but I allow a chars that helped in the conversation to Aid using same diplomacy (in these cases I usually use the same DC of Request to both Request and Aid).
Same for Thievery. I another player to help using thievery using the same DC of the trap I also allows other skill like craft for mechanical traps but usually I request an RK first. If it succeed I allow it to Aid with a different skill but related to target.
Using the same DC of the chalenge and even asking for RK before when using a different skill may look too much dificult but I also allows all the characters to Aid so the chance of one of the helps and roll a critical increases and even if someone fails this usually is compensated by one that got a success.
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Yes Aid for exploration is way more clear and easier to use and understand. Even the DC you can simply use the same DC of the chalenge.- Aid a skill check by performing the same skill, like using Diplomacy to Aid someone's Diplomacy or Medicine to Aid someone's Medicine.
- Aid a skill check by using an alternate skill for the same skill check, like using Crafting to Aid a Thievery check when the check was specifying you could use either Crafting or Thievery.
I wouldn't personally use the same DC as the challenge -- if the DC is the same, then they should just do the thing, instead of aiding the thing. I tend to go with challenge DC - 4. (Which rewards someone from being Trained in the skill or taken Untrained Improvisation.)
Help me out people:
One For All is a 1st level Swashbuckler class feat.
To get it, you need to either be a Swashbuckler and choose it at 1st level or have the Swashbuckler dedication and take it at 4th level.
Is there any other way to get it?
Can playing as a Swashbuckler! :P
But no it's a Swashbuckler's class feat. There isn´t other way to get it.
I wouldn't personally use the same DC as the challenge -- if the DC is the same, then they should just do the thing, instead of aiding the thing. I tend to go with challenge DC - 4. (Which rewards someone from being Trained in the skill or taken Untrained Improvisation.)Yes Aid for exploration is way more clear and easier to use and understand. Even the DC you can simply use the same DC of the chalenge.- Aid a skill check by performing the same skill, like using Diplomacy to Aid someone's Diplomacy or Medicine to Aid someone's Medicine.
- Aid a skill check by using an alternate skill for the same skill check, like using Crafting to Aid a Thievery check when the check was specifying you could use either Crafting or Thievery.
I have no reason to diminish it when all other 3 players can do the same check. It's easy enough.
Basically nothing prevents any number of characters to Aid. They can't be sum but they will do the same aid check and use the best result (unless someone critically fails).
Help me out people:
One For All is a 1st level Swashbuckler class feat.
To get it, you need to either be a Swashbuckler and choose it at 1st level or have the Swashbuckler dedication and take it at 4th level.
Is there any other way to get it?
Nope, Class or Archetype only. Bards can take the similar Uplifting Overture though, which only works on skill checks but uses Performance and gives you a success even if you roll a failure so is extremely reliable. Also at Legendary there's no roll: auto critical success.
Aid isn't very useful. In combat if you don't have a good use for your three actions and a reaction then your likely only going to give a +1 or +2 anyhow. Aiding a skill means your bad at that skill, otherwise you'd be the one doing the check, so giving a small bonus.
The use cases for aid are few and far between, it's a nice little +1 or +2 but the cost is rarely worth the investment.
That's why one for all is so great, action cost is perfect and you can give up to a +4 on anything.
Aid boils down to if your good at the action in question then you would do it, if your not good at it, then the bonus you give is rarely worth the action cost compared to most other things you could do. If you build a character that's good at aiding then you increase the situations that it's useful for, but it's never going to be something you rely on often.