Have an ally cast Unfettered Movement on you.
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Have your teammates pummel the offender to death?
I don't remember anything in the occult spells or bard repertoire that helps to Escape.
Probably the only option is to take a Cleric/Oracle archetype and get Unimpeded Stride domain spell at level 4.
Honestly. Try to invest in acrobatics it is cheaper and usually when you face an enemy with a grab activity they usually does this many times. The good old Acrobat Archetype is there if you cannot invest in the skill. But as bard you have a lot of initial skills you probably can get at last trained in acrobatics.
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Another thing to note is that Escape will already allow you to use your basic unarmed attack bonus to make the check with.
Since Fist is your basic unarmed attack weapon and it has Finesse, I would allow using DEX as the attribute for the modifier.
So even without any investment at all the Bard can use a bonus for something that they are at least trained in and can choose the better of STR or DEX to go with it.
- Have someone in the party cast a spell on you that allows you to escape more easily or automatically, like unfettered movement.
- Have someone in the party either Shove or Reposition whoever is Grappling you, since moving the Grappler will end the grapple.
- Teleport yourself out with something like translocate or flicker. You'll need to pass a DC 5 flat check but you can do it.
- Escape using your Unarmed Attack Modifier, which would be:
Level + Proficiency + Strength or Dex (whichever is highest) + any item bonuses you might have for Unarmed attacks.
- Kill the thing grappling you. Grappled doesn't prevent you from stabbing the guy since Strike doesn't have the Manipulate trait.
- Have your friends kill the thing grappling you.
Since Fist is your basic unarmed attack weapon and it has Finesse, I would allow using DEX as the attribute for the modifier.
Can you use finesse to Escape? I was thinking that only Agile was valid. Do you remember where the rule is?
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I do have translocate! Ok, so maybe what I should do is a fake manipulate action just to intentionally provoke the AOO (if they have it) and then cast Translocate to escape safe and sound.
That baiting manipulate may fail due to the flat check imposed by being Grabbed.
And while it won't help while you're the one grappled, Friendfetch can free up to two allies from being grappled, depending on the result of a check from the caster.
I do have translocate! Ok, so maybe what I should do is a fake manipulate action just to intentionally provoke the AOO (if they have it) and then cast Translocate to escape safe and sound.- Have someone in the party cast a spell on you that allows you to escape more easily or automatically, like unfettered movement.
- Have someone in the party either Shove or Reposition whoever is Grappling you, since moving the Grappler will end the grapple.
- Teleport yourself out with something like translocate or flicker. You'll need to pass a DC 5 flat check but you can do it.
- Escape using your Unarmed Attack Modifier, which would be:
Level + Proficiency + Strength or Dex (whichever is highest) + any item bonuses you might have for Unarmed attacks.
- Kill the thing grappling you. Grappled doesn't prevent you from stabbing the guy since Strike doesn't have the Manipulate trait.
- Have your friends kill the thing grappling you.
AoO isn't so common in this game. Curiously I never found a creature with Grab and AoO/RS. It still possible to an enemy creature with such reaction to use Athletics to Grapple but it costs and uses a MAP so I rarely saw a GM using Grapple with a creature without Grab because it usually prefer to Strike without MAP or use some activity that doesn't create a MAP instead of try to Grapple.
Since Fist is your basic unarmed attack weapon and it has Finesse, I would allow using DEX as the attribute for the modifier.Can you use finesse to Escape? I was thinking that only Agile was valid. Do you remember where the rule is?
It is because Escape uses the attack bonus.
Attempt a check using your unarmed attack modifier against the DC of the effect.
And Finesse calculates attack bonus using DEX.
You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon.
Not because of using weapon traits like Grapple or Trip on combat maneuvers with the weapon. It is something specific in Escape itself.
It is very likely that someone will come along and tell me that I am wrong, lol.
Since Fist is your basic unarmed attack weapon and it has Finesse, I would allow using DEX as the attribute for the modifier.Can you use finesse to Escape? I was thinking that only Agile was valid. Do you remember where the rule is?It is because Escape uses the attack bonus.
Attempt a check using your unarmed attack modifier against the DC of the effect.And Finesse calculates attack bonus using DEX.
You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon.Not because of using weapon traits like Grapple or Trip on combat maneuvers with the weapon. It is something specific in Escape itself.
It is very likely that someone will come along and tell me that I am wrong, lol.
Tnx! I was remembering that this isn't possible for Trip, Grapple and Shove but because they aren't attacks and there's a note in Athletics saying only about Agile trait. But you have a point Escape uses the unarmed attack modifier so if your unarmed attack is finesse it can use dex for calculation.
So I agree it still an option. Maybe not your best at later levels when your enemies will have bonuses based legendary Athletics but it still a chance to Escape (or more because you can use many actions trying to Escape if you are desperately trying to Escape).
This is also one of the situations the Ooze Form spell can actually be helpful for. (Not because you slip out instantly or anything, but because your Athletics can be better and, depending on what's grabbing you and what level you can cast this at, you may even exceed the size they can Grapple.)
It's a high commitment plan with real opportunity costs, but one of my players has gotten out of tough spots doing that with Form spells before.
I am looking for a way to escape grapples as a Bard without a high acrobatics or athletics score. Does anyone have any ideas?
I think the problem with using Dex/Finesse is that you aren't using your fist or any other weapon/unarmed attack. It's just the generic attack bonus, and that defaults to Str.
If you're in the front and have poor prowess, you kinda need to invest in Acrobatics to Escape (assuming you have a higher Dex and aren't doing maneuvers). Yet how many times will you need to Escape? Why are you getting attacked so much? Sometimes taking a share of the damage and getting grabbed is better than the alternatives, in the party's larger paradigm that is. Hopefully too you're two moves back so enemies won't have the spare action to Grab (until Improved Grab at later levels). And yeah, all those more magical methods suit the build more, and make better use of actions than trying to Escape (which against a competent opponent is difficult even for the martials).
I think the problem with using Dex/Finesse is that you aren't using your fist or any other weapon/unarmed attack. It's just the generic attack bonus, and that defaults to Str.
Yes I still have this doubt because Finesse trait says "...Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls..." but Escape isn't an attack roll. It is just a "...a check using your unarmed attack modifier against the DC of the effect".
Once that attack rolls are different from the attack trait and Escape isn't an attack roll it just have the attack trait (the designers lose the opportunity to rename the trait in the remaster) I'm no sure that Escape can be benefit from things that changes your attack roll.
I think the problem with using Dex/Finesse is that you aren't using your fist or any other weapon/unarmed attack. It's just the generic attack bonus, and that defaults to Str.Yes I still have this doubt because Finesse trait says "...Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls..." but Escape isn't an attack roll. It is just a "...a check using your unarmed attack modifier against the DC of the effect".
Once that attack rolls are different from the attack trait and Escape isn't an attack roll it just have the attack trait (the designers lose the opportunity to rename the trait in the remaster) I'm no sure that Escape can be benefit from things that changes your attack roll.
It doesn't need to: Escape says "Attempt a check using your unarmed attack modifier." So you use your unarmed attack modifier because that's what its telling you to do.
Your unarmed attack modifier can use Finesse when you calculate it.
Look at it this way: if they really intended this to use proficiency in unarmed strikes + STR in all cases, they could have just said that in Escape. The fact that it says to use the modifier instead suggests you should use the modifier, not "use the modifier but then change it."
One of the design intents of PF2 was to reduce complexity, and "use your unarmed strike modifier except you need to recalculate it and we're not going to tell you that" doesn't fit with that goal.
This case is a lot simpler if you do exactly what it tells you to do.
The point is, this "unarmed attack modifier" can be considered as an "Attack Roll" as defined by its rules or is just an check with an attack trait where any other effect beyond MAP is applied as clarified in the CRB print 1 errata:
Page 446: Attack Rolls. There was some confusion as to whether skill checks with the attack trait (such as Grapple or Trip) are also attack rolls at the same time. They are not. To make this clear, add this sentence to the beginning of the definition of attack roll "When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll."
To clarify the different rules elements involved:
An attack is any check that has the attack trait. It applies and increases the multiple attack penalty.
An attack roll is one of the core types of checks in the game (along with saving throws, skill checks, and Perception checks). They are used for Strikes and spell attacks, and traditionally target Armor Class.
Some skill actions have the attack trait, specifically Athletics actions such as Grapple and Trip. You still make a skill check with these skills, not an attack roll.
The multiple attack penalty applies on those skill actions as well. As it says later on in the definition of attack roll "Striking multiple times in a turn has diminishing returns. The multiple attack penalty (detailed on page 446) applies to each attack after the first, whether those attacks are Strikes, special attacks like the Grapple action of the Athletics skill, or spell attack rolls." There is inaccurate language in the Multiple Attack Penalty section implying it applies only to attack rolls that will be receiving errata.
The point is this entry in the FAQ clarifies that attack rolls are those rolls used for Strikes and spell attacks. I can understand if an action or activity that doesn't call Strike or spell attack explicitly mentions "do an attack roll" it is an attack roll but when this doesn't happen it is only an attack check due attack trait and only MAP applies. So "unarmed attack modifier" is really the same as an attack roll?
I'm not sure where the RAW falls, but as a GM if a player is so desperate that they're trying to use their "unarmed attack modifier" to escape because they don't have a better option, I'm not going to argue over whether they get a +0 str or +4 from their dex. Yes it makes a not insubstantial difference, but there are also plenty of rolls where it wouldn't affect the outcome.
It is very likely that someone will come along and tell me that I am wrong, lol.
Called it.