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Your party comes face to face with a group of potentially hostile humanoids.
You're 3rd level, and have Sleep prepared.
To avoid wasting your spell, can you use Sense Motive to determine A) whether any of the opponents are powerful enough (5th level or higher) to be immune, and/or B) the most optimal spot to place it?
Are there any rules covering this scenario, or is this a GM judgement call?
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I'm pretty sure there are no official rules for this. There are abilities and spells that can let you know some of their attributes, but I don't know of anything to determine hit dice.
At best, you may be able to tell who the leader(s) of a group are, and then assume the others are lower level.
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I want to say I've seen a subsystem or feat somewhere that lets you size up an opponent using your base attack bonus, but I can't find it right now.
I think sense motive is much more about state of mind. How they feel about the party and maybe each other.
Generally, I think a lot of people and worse RPGs over estimate what you can tell about people from their manner. The science as I understand it is, body language experts aside, such judgements are very unreliable and more about prejudices than fact. Attractive members of your own ethnic group seem most trustworthy for example.
If you want to know HD you need the relevant KS.
I can see the knowledge local, but not the profession Soldier. Often most of the humanoid troops will be warriors not fighters, and as such will not have armor training. But if they are all decked out in expensive heavy armor that is in itself and indication, they are probably not going to be affected by the sleep spell. The quality of their gear is also another indication that can be used.
I also vaguely recall there was some kind of subsystem for gauging your opponents level/abilities using some skill but can't remember what it was at this point.
Edit: Recall Intrigues
Recall Intrigues (Knowledge)
Source PPC:SpyHBYou can identify feats and the class features of various classes with successful Knowledge checks when you observe the feats or class features being used.
Check: You can attempt a skill check to identify a feat or class feature when you observe it in use, similar to how Spellcraft can be used to identify a spell. The feat or class feature must have some observable effect in order for you to attempt the Knowledge check. For example, you can’t see the internal determination of Iron Will, so this ability can’t identify that feat. In general, if a feat or class feature creates a noticeable effect (such as the extra attack from using Cleave) or has a variable modifier a character must choose to use (such as Arcane Strike, Combat Expertise, or Enlarge Spell), it can be identified. If it creates a static bonus (such as Dodge or Lightning Reflexes), there’s no telltale sign to give it away.
Task Knowledge Skill DC
Identify a class feature from a class that grants arcane or psychic spells Arcana 10+ class level when the feature is granted.*
Identify a class feature from a class with access to the druid or ranger spell list Nature 10+ class level when the feature is granted.
Identify a class feature from a class that grants divine spells Religion 10+ class level when the feature is granted.
Identify a class feature from any other class Local 10+ class level when the feature is granted. *
Identify a combat feat being used Local 10+ character’s level
Identify a metamagic feat being used Arcana 10+ character’s level
Identify teamwork feat being used Nobility 10+ character’s level
*Add 10 to the DC if the class is a prestige classThe Knowledge skill required to identify a feat or class feature varies depending on the type of feat or class feature to be identified and is outlined in the Recall Intrigues (Knowledge) table above, along with the DCs of such skill checks.
The quality of their gear is also another indication that can be used.
That’s a good idea. I guess you could get a rough idea of that with an appraise check. But it’s either 1 full round action to determine the most expensive item or 1 standard per item they have, which is time consuming
I've always allowed my players to use CMB as a martial threat assessment, using DCs exactly as you would with Knowledge checks. I think that's 10 + CR, off the top of my head.
However, knowledge checks generally don't tell you about class levels; only the base creature. With my martial checks, I allow some class/level info. This is hazy, as I've never formalized it, but if they miss the DC but are within 5, I give some rudimentary info ("you can probably take 'em"). If they meet the DC, I give an idea of power level via the CR system. No details on class levels, just... how easy is it to beat 'em down ("you'd guess this is a CR 5 to 7 encounter"). If they exceed by 5+ I give them a lot of info ("this enemy has either monk or brawler levels, you're pretty sure, and he looks waaaaayyy beyond your team's abilities"). If they beat it by 10+ I even just say class & level, though still maybe hazy a bit (such as, "the guard has 2 or 3 levels of warrior, in your professional opinion").
Anyway, that's imperfect but it's what I allow.
Someone earlier mentioned Profession (soldier) as a skill for this, and I'd not considered that, but I'd absolutely allow it. I'd allow Profession (guard) too and/or Profession (thug/bandit), if that's a thing.
I would note that this is pretty useless for spellcasting. If an enemy is powerful because he/she/it has 15 levels of wizard, well, you wouldn't know that from a CMB check. You might know "seems like a spellcaster type, not much martial power" and that might ward you off simply because "oh spellcaster" but you'd never know levels or relative magical power.
With classes that are part martial, part magic -- warpriest, cleric, magus -- I mostly ignore the spellcasting aspects and just focus on pure martial prowess.
The quality of their gear is also another indication that can be used.That’s a good idea. I guess you could get a rough idea of that with an appraise check. But it’s either 1 full round action to determine the most expensive item or 1 standard per item they have, which is time consuming
That is assuming you are trying to figure out the actual value. Some things should be a little more obvious. The guy in polished full plate that fits him well is probably fairly high level. The guy in ill-fitting patched up studded leather is probably not. The guy in the fitted studded leather in good repair is probably not low level.
That is assuming you are trying to figure out the actual value. Some things should be a little more obvious. The guy in polished full plate that fits him well is probably fairly high level. The guy in ill-fitting patched up studded leather is probably not. The guy in the fitted studded leather in good repair is probably not low level.The quality of their gear is also another indication that can be used.That’s a good idea. I guess you could get a rough idea of that with an appraise check. But it’s either 1 full round action to determine the most expensive item or 1 standard per item they have, which is time consuming
Yes, your version is fine for assuming who's most important in a mixed group. But by using appraise, you could make some assumptions about their general wealth by level for NPCs. Which would give you a ballpark of what levels they are, instead of how they stack up to each other relatively.
If they are all dressed the same, you could appraise their armor and weapon and get a pretty vague idea of their level. Armor upgrades a little faster than weapons. So, those break points can tell you things. Regular armor, probably level 1-4. Masterwork armor but regular weapon, probably level 3-6. Masterwork weapon, probably level 4-8. Those are just generalities, but they do give you possibly helpful ranges. If a group of enemies all have masterwork weapons, I wouldn't use the sleep spell against them. And you can make similar assumptions based on how magical their weapons and armor are.
That is assuming you are trying to figure out the actual value. Some things should be a little more obvious. The guy in polished full plate that fits him well is probably fairly high level. The guy in ill-fitting patched up studded leather is probably not. The guy in the fitted studded leather in good repair is probably not low level.The quality of their gear is also another indication that can be used.That’s a good idea. I guess you could get a rough idea of that with an appraise check. But it’s either 1 full round action to determine the most expensive item or 1 standard per item they have, which is time consumingYes, your version is fine for assuming who's most important in a mixed group. But by using appraise, you could make some assumptions about their general wealth by level for NPCs. Which would give you a ballpark of what levels they are, instead of how they stack up to each other relatively.
If they are all dressed the same, you could appraise their armor and weapon and get a pretty vague idea of their level. Armor upgrades a little faster than weapons. So, those break points can tell you things. Regular armor, probably level 1-4. Masterwork armor but regular weapon, probably level 3-6. Masterwork weapon, probably level 4-8. Those are just generalities, but they do give you possibly helpful ranges. If a group of enemies all have masterwork weapons, I wouldn't use the sleep spell against them. And you can make similar assumptions based on how magical their weapons and armor are.
Of course you may not have enough time to appraise the enemy group in time to determine that.
Action: Appraising an item takes 1 standard action. Determining the most valuable object in a treasure hoard takes 1 full-round action.
As a GM I'd probably also rule that just looking at an item from 20-50' away is insufficient to actually do an appraisal of it. You might be able to determine it is masterwork from that, but not that it is +2 harmonizing, champion, full plate mail (eg, worth 49k+). A proper appraisal would generally involve being able to handle the item and inspect it more closely IMO. This could be a good place to add circumstantial penalties - so a high roll might get the player close enough to its value to still be useful.
Of couse this all assumes the items being appraised are at a proper experience/wealth level. Sometimes that 1st level NPC has wealthy parents, or that high level NPC just broke out of prison and hasn't collected any good equipment yet.
Yeah. I had earlier pointed out that time is an issue with this method. But assuming you are scouting because planning to ambush with a sleep spell, it’s not unreasonable to assume you took the time to at least try.
As for determining magic items, I think that’s mostly a detect magic and spellcraft kind of thing.
When I gm, I frequently allow appraise for equipment quality, sense motive for possible next action (or for example, would he offer to surrender).
For example, an ecounter in hells rebels, specifically netusing cultist of Mahatalla
Appraise tells you that the enemies are wearing fairly expensive silk clothes, sense motive implies to you that they arent hardened front line fighters, and also probably wont kill you unless you kill one of them, perception tells you they pack wands, but you dont know of what, appraise also tells you that they got masterwork nets. Profession soldier or fisher tells you that they probably got some net centric feats, becuase they dont entangle themselfs with them.
In some cases you don’t need to make an actual appraisal roll. Even normal full plate is incredibly expensive and it is unlikely that any NPC below 5th level is going to be able to afford it. Even field plate is probably too expensive for a low-level NPC to afford. This is something that a 3rd level adventurer should be aware of. If they are wearing less expensive armor like banded and splint mail, then it becomes more of a challenge.
The OP specified they opponents where humanoids, so that means they are probably non-human. In that case a knowledge local roll might be appropriate.
Aha, I finally found the thing I was thinking of. Measure Foe.
It lets you determine someone's BaB and Combat Feats by making a Sense Motive check.
Aha, I finally found the thing I was thinking of. Measure Foe.
It lets you determine someone's BaB and Combat Feats by making a Sense Motive check.
One thing that really annoys me in PF 1e is that you need feats for almost anything you want to do. Don't get me wrong, I love feats, but there are just so many of them and you get so few and you just can't afford to waste feats for these kind of minor things. This should have been just part of Sense Motive skill.
Why should being able to determine somethings HD be part of sense motive? That would mean that spotting a highly skilled assassin is easier than a lower skilled assassin. It would also render the skill disguise nearly useless. When you can easily figure out that the “farm hand” is 12 HD it kind of gives things away.
Unless you are highly trained in observation determining the combat skills of a person just standing there is not something that anyone can do.
I would say you need to be engaged in combat (or closely observe them fighting someone else) with the person you are using your sense motive on, to determine their Bab or feats.
Spotting the higly trained assasin pretending to be a farmer would be an opposed roll of sense motive versus the assasins disguise. If the assasin is not well trained in disguise, his movements and mannerism would be different than a farmers.
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If you use Skill unlocks and Occult Adventures it can be done once a day.
Totally useless in the OP scenario, but interesting when playing an intrigue campaign.
The requirement that the target creature must be present is a big limit, but it isn't "actively involved", so "playing with the tarot cards in the corner of the bar/club lunge/etc. while the target is there" could be done.
The main problem is that this style of gaming works better if you can do it in a one-on-one session with the GM, not during a regular gaming session with 3-4 people who will be twirling thumbs while you do your thing.
I know Pathfinder isn't meant to be at all realistic, but I don't think it is Sense Motive that will tell you how good opponents are in combat.
I spent many years doing martial arts and I can quite reliably tell how good someone is at unarmed combat by observing how they carry their body and move. And very quickly too.
Maybe you should roll your BaB.
I know Pathfinder isn't meant to be at all realistic, but I don't think it is Sense Motive that will tell you how good opponents are in combat.
I spent many years doing martial arts and I can quite reliably tell how good someone is at unarmed combat by observing how they carry their body and move. And very quickly too.
Maybe you should roll your BaB.
The reason you can tell how good someone is at unarmed combat is you spent years training and practicing. In game terms you probably have a feat or class ability that allows you to do so. Could a small child be able to do what you can?
Sense motive can be used untrained, and all characters (even children) have a BAB. The BAB may be 0, but as my high school math teacher said 0 is a number.