Can You 'Size Up' an Opponent with Sense Motive?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Your party comes face to face with a group of potentially hostile humanoids.
You're 3rd level, and have Sleep prepared.
To avoid wasting your spell, can you use Sense Motive to determine A) whether any of the opponents are powerful enough (5th level or higher) to be immune, and/or B) the most optimal spot to place it?
Are there any rules covering this scenario, or is this a GM judgement call?


I'm pretty sure there are no official rules for this. There are abilities and spells that can let you know some of their attributes, but I don't know of anything to determine hit dice.

At best, you may be able to tell who the leader(s) of a group are, and then assume the others are lower level.


I want to say I've seen a subsystem or feat somewhere that lets you size up an opponent using your base attack bonus, but I can't find it right now.


I think sense motive is much more about state of mind. How they feel about the party and maybe each other.

Generally, I think a lot of people and worse RPGs over estimate what you can tell about people from their manner. The science as I understand it is, body language experts aside, such judgements are very unreliable and more about prejudices than fact. Attractive members of your own ethnic group seem most trustworthy for example.

If you want to know HD you need the relevant KS.


Knowledge: Local is the skill to know more about humanoids in general and specific humanoids. So, Knowledge: Local can tell you that that person is probably a fighter who is unencumbered by the weight of their heavy armor (Armor Training 2? Level 7 at least.) I'd also allow 'Will sleep work on this guy?' to be a specific piece of information gained from a successful check.

I'd also allow similar results from a Profession: Soldier check.


I can see the knowledge local, but not the profession Soldier. Often most of the humanoid troops will be warriors not fighters, and as such will not have armor training. But if they are all decked out in expensive heavy armor that is in itself and indication, they are probably not going to be affected by the sleep spell. The quality of their gear is also another indication that can be used.


Sense Motive (Wis) skill, "You are skilled at detecting falsehoods and true intentions."
not level, not battlefield placement or range nor tactics. That'd be RAW.
d20pfsrd wider advice

a skill to know about a creature type is a Knowledge(various) (Int) skill check. Knowledge about humans/humanoids is Knw(Local).


I also vaguely recall there was some kind of subsystem for gauging your opponents level/abilities using some skill but can't remember what it was at this point.

Edit: Recall Intrigues

Quote:


Recall Intrigues (Knowledge)
Source PPC:SpyHB

You can identify feats and the class features of various classes with successful Knowledge checks when you observe the feats or class features being used.

Check: You can attempt a skill check to identify a feat or class feature when you observe it in use, similar to how Spellcraft can be used to identify a spell. The feat or class feature must have some observable effect in order for you to attempt the Knowledge check. For example, you can’t see the internal determination of Iron Will, so this ability can’t identify that feat. In general, if a feat or class feature creates a noticeable effect (such as the extra attack from using Cleave) or has a variable modifier a character must choose to use (such as Arcane Strike, Combat Expertise, or Enlarge Spell), it can be identified. If it creates a static bonus (such as Dodge or Lightning Reflexes), there’s no telltale sign to give it away.

Task Knowledge Skill DC
Identify a class feature from a class that grants arcane or psychic spells Arcana 10+ class level when the feature is granted.*
Identify a class feature from a class with access to the druid or ranger spell list Nature 10+ class level when the feature is granted.
Identify a class feature from a class that grants divine spells Religion 10+ class level when the feature is granted.
Identify a class feature from any other class Local 10+ class level when the feature is granted. *
Identify a combat feat being used Local 10+ character’s level
Identify a metamagic feat being used Arcana 10+ character’s level
Identify teamwork feat being used Nobility 10+ character’s level
*Add 10 to the DC if the class is a prestige class

The Knowledge skill required to identify a feat or class feature varies depending on the type of feat or class feature to be identified and is outlined in the Recall Intrigues (Knowledge) table above, along with the DCs of such skill checks.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
The quality of their gear is also another indication that can be used.

That’s a good idea. I guess you could get a rough idea of that with an appraise check. But it’s either 1 full round action to determine the most expensive item or 1 standard per item they have, which is time consuming


I've always allowed my players to use CMB as a martial threat assessment, using DCs exactly as you would with Knowledge checks. I think that's 10 + CR, off the top of my head.

However, knowledge checks generally don't tell you about class levels; only the base creature. With my martial checks, I allow some class/level info. This is hazy, as I've never formalized it, but if they miss the DC but are within 5, I give some rudimentary info ("you can probably take 'em"). If they meet the DC, I give an idea of power level via the CR system. No details on class levels, just... how easy is it to beat 'em down ("you'd guess this is a CR 5 to 7 encounter"). If they exceed by 5+ I give them a lot of info ("this enemy has either monk or brawler levels, you're pretty sure, and he looks waaaaayyy beyond your team's abilities"). If they beat it by 10+ I even just say class & level, though still maybe hazy a bit (such as, "the guard has 2 or 3 levels of warrior, in your professional opinion").

Anyway, that's imperfect but it's what I allow.

Someone earlier mentioned Profession (soldier) as a skill for this, and I'd not considered that, but I'd absolutely allow it. I'd allow Profession (guard) too and/or Profession (thug/bandit), if that's a thing.

I would note that this is pretty useless for spellcasting. If an enemy is powerful because he/she/it has 15 levels of wizard, well, you wouldn't know that from a CMB check. You might know "seems like a spellcaster type, not much martial power" and that might ward you off simply because "oh spellcaster" but you'd never know levels or relative magical power.

With classes that are part martial, part magic -- warpriest, cleric, magus -- I mostly ignore the spellcasting aspects and just focus on pure martial prowess.

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