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Good thing Necro is a full caster!
This is hardly a necromancer specific problem. What does a melee focused martial do in this situation? You need to use another tactic.
I don't view this as a problem. The fact that the class doesn't have one ability that solves every single problem isn't a bad thing.
The difference here is that a Melee martial just needs Flight cast to solve the problem. Every other class resolves the issue by getting flight, even temporarily.
Necromancer doesn't. If you can fly, you still lose access to almost all your class features above ground. It's okay to consider their limited spells enough, but I think losing their main mechanic with no way to access it is a big enough problem that it could benefit from addressing.
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Having thralls conjured up that somehow just float in the air is just completely absurd sounding.Really? Even when a third of flavours of thralls is literally ghosts? Are floating ghosts really that absurd?
I really do dislike baseline character options that forget that by level 10 a lot of times enemies can fly. And even some 'essential' spells which are only useable on the surface.
I agree. There's a lot of horrific flying/float/ghostly undeads in pop culture. Makes thralls fly/float isn't absurd it's just makes them more horrific and thematic.
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Maybe Grave spells that hinge on using a thrall should be worded as using an undead that you control.
Which would include both thralls and undead summons, some of which do fly.
Three actions and a spellslot is probably too high of a buy-in to be able to put things in the air. Also, this would allow you to target an undead companion the same way, which might cause problems--whether you'd ever want to or not.
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Another solution to explain floating undead-piles of bodies.
Imagine a colum of flesh, bones or ectoplasm, extending from the necromancers square.
Kinda Tokyo Ghoul style.
These fountains of necrotic force would hold the Thrall in place.
They can't be attacked anymore than most spell effects, and the disappear when the Thrall does.
No mechanic, just another way to picture Thralls in the air.
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Would they fall?
I'm just reading over the Thrall sidebar, and the spell, and the description in the text. None of it mentions movement speed. and as someone pointed out we are allowed to flavor them as spirits... So even at level 1... would they necessarily fall? I mean, Even if we suppose they linger in the air, they still can't chase the target down, or anything. So would a suspended spirit thrall really be that wild of a supposition?
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If you're thinking in 3D, a thrall 10 feet in the air threatens 26 cubes around it, versus the 17 cubes of a thrall on the ground. You give up a lot of ground control this way, but if you assume thralls can be suspended in the air at all, it could be situationally useful.
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Would they fall?
I'm just reading over the Thrall sidebar, and the spell, and the description in the text. None of it mentions movement speed. and as someone pointed out we are allowed to flavor them as spirits... So even at level 1... would they necessarily fall? I mean, Even if we suppose they linger in the air, they still can't chase the target down, or anything. So would a suspended spirit thrall really be that wild of a supposition?
Sure they'd fall; they're creatures without abilities to stay in midair. If a spirit doesn't have a fly speed or levitation ability, it's still stuck on the ground. A GM might reasonably decide to make a home rule otherwise, of course. For the playtest, though, it's probably best to go with what's written there.
If spirit thralls are the only ones able to float in midair, than that's the only subclass for using its features in airborne combat.
They specify in the subclass section that just because you focus on one type, it doesn't limit you to JUST that type.
Oh, right- I forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder!
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Archer skeleton thralls scratches a certain itch for me, that's for sure.
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Archer skeleton thralls scratches a certain itch for me, that's for sure.
This is probably the lowest hanging fruit to fix it. After the level where flying becomes more common be able to summon one of your thralls per summon has some basic ranged attack move that lets you do your basic thrall attack at some reasonable range.
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Archer skeleton thralls scratches a certain itch for me, that's for sure.This is probably the lowest hanging fruit to fix it. After the level where flying becomes more common be able to summon one of your thralls per summon has some basic ranged attack move that lets you do your basic thrall attack at some reasonable range.
You can just look at the Screaming Skull attack of Skeletons as an example: They can toss their skull and it bounces back so you wouldn't even need a bow.
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You can just look at the Screaming Skull attack of Skeletons as an example: They can toss their skull and it bounces back so you wouldn't even need a bow.Archer skeleton thralls scratches a certain itch for me, that's for sure.This is probably the lowest hanging fruit to fix it. After the level where flying becomes more common be able to summon one of your thralls per summon has some basic ranged attack move that lets you do your basic thrall attack at some reasonable range.
Goofy is fine for a Rare PC Ancestry.
I do not wish it for a Common class.
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You can just look at the Screaming Skull attack of Skeletons as an example: They can toss their skull and it bounces back so you wouldn't even need a bow.Archer skeleton thralls scratches a certain itch for me, that's for sure.This is probably the lowest hanging fruit to fix it. After the level where flying becomes more common be able to summon one of your thralls per summon has some basic ranged attack move that lets you do your basic thrall attack at some reasonable range.Goofy is fine for a Rare PC Ancestry.
I do not wish it for a Common class.
We currently have spells that transform your thrall into a coat [muscle barrier] so it seems, IMO, goofy is already in there. And that sort of thing is on brand for PF2: the skeleton ancestry allows you to wield one of your arms in your other arm...
PS: We could also get a feat to create/launch thralls at things to have them explode.
EDIT: Also, how are you sure it's going to be a common class?
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Skeletons you fight as enemies are already throwing their skulls. Not sure why players shouldn't be able to work with that as well.
I prefer Skeleton archers because they're super iconic. Just sayin' skeletons throwin' skulls in PF2 is already here to stay.
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What to do about flying enemies?
Track them to their homes. Wait for them to go to sleep. Summon your thrall horde around their bed. Kill them.
If they wake up and see your thrall horde looking down upon them before they die in terror, all the more fun for you.
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Would they fall?
I'm just reading over the Thrall sidebar, and the spell, and the description in the text. None of it mentions movement speed. and as someone pointed out we are allowed to flavor them as spirits... So even at level 1... would they necessarily fall? I mean, Even if we suppose they linger in the air, they still can't chase the target down, or anything. So would a suspended spirit thrall really be that wild of a supposition?
So, relevant to the entire discussion but especially this, the grave spell "Recurring Nightmare" says:
You conjure a thrall within range. Unlike other thralls, the nightmare can share space with other creatures, and other creatures can move through its space with ease. This thrall doesn’t fall if in the air, and any ability that would make it Stride makes it Fly instead.
Does a couple other interesting things, like allow you to Sustain to keep popping it into another creature's space so you can harass them, but the bolded section implies that normally Thralls do just fall if they're created in air. I suppose you can detonate them with Necrotic bomb, but otherwise yeah they just drop. It also seems to confirm that it is perfectly valid to create a thrall within the 30' sphere; they just fall and instantly get destroyed if they do. I would say they fall after making the Create Thrall melee strike against a flying enemy if one is there, swiping at the enemy even as they slide past like a cartoon cat shredding curtains.
I'm just guessing at this, so if we've gotten developer feedback that Wile E Coyote thralls are not, in fact, intended, then that's that. But it may need to be spelled out in the spell itself, perhaps by adding an "Area a square on the ground within 30 ft" section to the cantrip, and saying that the thrall is created in that area, as we see with the Zombie Horde grave spell.
Otherwise it seems like a simple upgrade to Create Thrall that gives it a longer range, and perhaps allow your thralls to simply hover in air (if you chose, creating a thrall and letting it fall directly on your enemy seems fun too), would solve several problems.