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The rituals printed in War of Immortals aren't sitting right with me. It's not that I have a problem with the rituals in-and-of themselves, but I can't say I'm fond of classics like Create Demiplane, Imprisonment, and Freedom are now inaccessible to anyone who lacks mythic power.
Like, are evil wizards all suddenly going to have to get into the real estate market? In THIS economy!? Jokes aside, I dislike the idea that one must be mythic to seal away the immortal evil, or magically reinforce a structure. This feels like a needless restriction on rituals that are already tagged uncommon or rare, and thus plainly subject to GM discretion to begin with.
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Yeah I don't understand what the point of this change was except to go from "you need GM permissions to cast these" to "you need GM permission to cast these and also to either be mythic or get the GM to also waive that".
It's not like what they do changed in any significant way. They've now just been gated so hard that they may as well not exist. While a GM can just use the old version, the rules treat these like they're impossibly strong and dangerous and that GMs shouldn't give it out in all but the highest power campaigns.
That sends a signal to GMs and carries weight in those decisions.
War of Immortals really isn't kind to magic in several ways, and this is just one of those... but this one stands out for how entirely unnecessary it feels.
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I don't see how any of these rituals are more game-changing than Wish is, in fact many of them seem less impactful than Wish, and yet they can only be performed by those who are stepping into the realm of gods and immortals?
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Like, are evil wizards all suddenly going to have to get into the real estate market? In THIS economy!?
THIS economy is because evil wizards got into the real estate market.
The mythic Create Demiplane creates a much larger area, so I feel the mythic trait is justified, but I do feel the old version of Create Demiplane should be usable by non-mythic characters.
I do feel like rituals like Imprisonment, and Freedom should still work for non-mythic characters against non-mythic effects or creatures, with a mythic character needed to use the ritual against something mythic.
Both examples above are easy for a GM to implement. The other simple option is to just allow mythic rituals to be used in a game that otherwise isn't using the mythic rules.
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The problem I have with something like Create Demiplane being mythic only is that its effects are effectively 100% a flavor thing. The idea of a wizard having their own pocket dimension were they go to study or whatever is really cool, but doesn't make the characters stronger for having access to it. I do get why it would be mythic because you are literally shaping a mini-reality, but I feel casters can already do stuff that's comparable with their spells already.
Creative Director
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The problem I have with something like Create Demiplane being mythic only is that its effects are effectively 100% a flavor thing. The idea of a wizard having their own pocket dimension were they go to study or whatever is really cool, but doesn't make the characters stronger for having access to it. I do get why it would be mythic because you are literally shaping a mini-reality, but I feel casters can already do stuff that's comparable with their spells already.
For me, personally, this is why I think create demiplane, imprisonment, and freedom make sense as mythic rituals. They might not be THAT much more powerful, but the effects in the world should be significant things that not just anyone can do. In particular for imprisonment... making it mythic really helps to create narratives about ancient evils being locked away that not just anyone can let out.
For homebrew games, of course, it's always easy enough to house rule, but for Golarion, having these particular effects be more rarefied than the norm is good for narrative reasons.
Some folks have expressed concerns about us making most new rituals mythic too... that won't happen. There'll be some, yes, but as with the vast majority of what we'll continue to publish, it will expand on the core game experience, not on a specific rulebook.
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Does that mean that Karzoug is retroactively mythic now, since he did have his demiplane?
I get why it's done, but I feel that completely gating these rituals off for nonmythic play isn't the right move, especially for rituals like freedom or emprisonment. The heroes having to find a way to free an emprisonned something so that it can help them in some way, or to seal away a great evil at the end of their journey is a pretty fufilling plotbeat, and now one that's locked for any nonmythic party.
I think that at the very least there need to be some "loophole" that would allow a fully nonmythic party to cast mythic ritual in some circumstances. Like some special and rare consumable that wave the mythic point cost if it's used. Or a rule that say that if one use an artifact as the focus of a ritual, it count as spending a mythic point. This way, it would make mythic ritual more exciting for everyone since you could do it even in a nonmythic game, but finding what you need for the ritual would be a quest in itself (while mythic party would have the advantage of being able to cast those as freely as normal rituals).
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For me, personally, this is why I think create demiplane, imprisonment, and freedom make sense as mythic rituals. They might not be THAT much more powerful, but the effects in the world should be significant things that not just anyone can do. In particular for imprisonment... making it mythic really helps to create narratives about ancient evils being locked away that not just anyone can let out.
I think the problem is that "not everyone can access this" already describes rituals, which the party can generally only access if the GM gives them special permission, and with Create Demiplane having the rare tag just to mark how extra-special it is. As 8th-rank rituals, these are already things most creatures can't do, and the whole point of being a high-level character even in a non-mythic game is that you're supposed to be an exceptionally powerful being in the world of Golarion, at least as far as I understood. I don't think the right way to make mythic play feel special was to make non-mythic play feel more mundane, and I don't think taking toys away from the people enjoying regular campaigns is going to make people very happy or keen to try out mythic rules, so much as just have some tables flout those rules and include mythic spells and rituals in regular play.
I also feel a better compromise would have been to require a mythic point to target mythic creatures with these rituals, while keeping them available to normal play. With Create Demiplane, it would have been better IMO to simply add mythic-exclusive options and vastly increase the dimensions of each cast. That way, any table would be able to tell stories with those rituals (if the GM wanted to), and mythic play would keep that exclusivity of really shaking up the narrative by imprisoning or freeing mythic creatures, or creating demiplanes on par with some we've seen in certain popular APs.
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Does that mean that Karzoug is retroactively mythic now, since he did have his demiplane?
I get why it's done, but I feel that completely gating these rituals off for nonmythic play isn't the right move, especially for rituals like freedom or emprisonment. The heroes having to find a way to free an emprisonned something so that it can help them in some way, or to seal away a great evil at the end of their journey is a pretty fufilling plotbeat, and now one that's locked for any nonmythic party.
I think that at the very least there need to be some "loophole" that would allow a fully nonmythic party to cast mythic ritual in some circumstances. Like some special and rare consumable that wave the mythic point cost if it's used. Or a rule that say that if one use an artifact as the focus of a ritual, it count as spending a mythic point. This way, it would make mythic ritual more exciting for everyone since you could do it even in a nonmythic game, but finding what you need for the ritual would be a quest in itself (while mythic party would have the advantage of being able to cast those as freely as normal rituals).
No. NPCs use their own rules and can do things that are different than what PCs can accomplish. In Karzoug's case, in order to create the Eye of Avarice, he first had to create his runewell. He's also centuries old and has an entire nation of resources. And more.
The mythic create demiplane ritual is not the only way someone can create a demiplane. It's just the only one we've currently published for PLAYERS to access in 2nd edition remastered rules.
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Creative Director
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In particular for imprisonment... making it mythic really helps to create narratives about ancient evils being locked away that not just anyone can let out.This is a reasonable aim. But for this a paragraph (or a line) in the sense that rituals can have mythic versions and to implement or reverse those you must have mythic means (mythic group, help or items) should be enough, I think. So for every ancient evil you don't want to allow be freed by just any powerful entity you say it has been entrapped by a mythic version of some normal ritual.
Or we (or you, if you're the one creating the adventure) can just create something new.
In 2nd edition, only the PCs are bound by the rules for PCs. The GM gets to build things differently, using the guidelines for creating items and hazards and monsters and all that in the GM Core as a starting place.
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...In 2nd edition, only the PCs are bound by the rules for PCs. The GM gets to build things differently, using the guidelines for creating items and hazards and monsters and all that in the GM Core as a starting place.
While this has been true of second edition from the start, I have to admit it feels strange to see it laid out so plainly by staff as an explanation for something.
I don't mean to say it's positive or negative—just odd. It just feels like an acknowledgement of a paradigm shift in a place I would not have expected it.
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...In 2nd edition, only the PCs are bound by the rules for PCs. The GM gets to build things differently, using the guidelines for creating items and hazards and monsters and all that in the GM Core as a starting place.While this has been true of second edition from the start, I have to admit it feels strange to see it laid out so plainly by staff as an explanation for something.
I don't mean to say it's positive or negative—just odd. It just feels like an acknowledgement of a paradigm shift in a place I would not have expected it.
The dirty secret here is that it's always been true, forever. There's no paradigm shift.
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In 2nd edition, only the PCs are bound by the rules for PCs. The GM gets to build things differently, using the guidelines for creating items and hazards and monsters and all that in the GM Core as a starting place.
While that is true it is also the case that every time a NPC obviously breaks the rules that the PCs operate under the world gets a little bit less clear and realistic to the players.
To take an obvious example, if a house cat suddenly flies then the house cat isn't breaking the rules of the game (The GM is well within their rights to just give the house cat a fly speed). But the house cat is certainly breaking the players expectations, the unwritten rules of the world. And the GM pretty much HAS to expect the players AND characters to be amazed by the flying house cat and the GM pretty much HAS to have an in world explanation.
The general assumption that most players have in my experience is that the game rules DO more or less apply to the NPCs as well. Sure, a house cat CAN fly but it doesn't unless there is a good in world reason. PC long bows have an absolute accurate range of 500 ft and so does a NPC bow unless there is a good in world reason. While anything CAN happen most things do NOT happen because, even in a High Fantasy world, there has to be a significant grounding in reality and the characters and players need to know what is strange and what is expected.
So expecting players to just go "Shrug. NPC. Follows different rules" isn't realistic IMO.
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In particular for imprisonment... making it mythic really helps to create narratives about ancient evils being locked away that not just anyone can let out.This is a reasonable aim. But for this a paragraph (or a line) in the sense that rituals can have mythic versions and to implement or reverse those you must have mythic means (mythic group, help or items) should be enough, I think. So for every ancient evil you don't want to allow be freed by just any powerful entity you say it has been entrapped by a mythic version of some normal ritual.Or we (or you, if you're the one creating the adventure) can just create something new.
In 2nd edition, only the PCs are bound by the rules for PCs. The GM gets to build things differently, using the guidelines for creating items and hazards and monsters and all that in the GM Core as a starting place.
The whole problem with this is that every time the PCs lose the ability to do something like this while NPCs still get to "because NPCs follow different rules", it makes the game world feel less cohesive as an actual world, and feel more like a plot contrivance.
There are good reasons to have NPCs not follow some rules that PCs do, especially when it comes to the ease of creating statblocks for encounters that you only really need once. But in a situation like this, where the rules say flat out "this is something only high level mythic casters can do", having the GM (or the AP writer) immediately turn around and go "except this one because reasons" just reinforces the message the players that the "laws of physics" as it were in the game world aren't that consistent and are extremely malleable when it suits the plot... but not for them.
For a game world to feel cohesive and like a real world, it needs internal consistency. Chipping away at that by having the rules tell PCs "you absolutely can't do this" while also telling NPCs "but you can somehow" does real damage to that.
And having to create something new because there already was an option that was effectively taken away by being gated like this is just creating work for the GM that doesn't have to exist. One of Pathfinder's selling points has always been having lots of options and lots of things spelled out. It's a feature that I don't have to constantly just make something up.
And in the case of these, already existing rituals, it just feels so incredibly unnecessary. They were already high level things, difficult to pull off if you could even get access to them. They were already rare and special. Now they're even rarer for PCs but not for NPCs, which doesn't make it feel special so much as it makes it feel like a "these only exist when its convenient for the plot" situation.
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No. NPCs use their own rules and can do things that are different than what PCs can accomplish. In Karzoug's case, in order to create the Eye of Avarice, he first had to create his runewell. He's also centuries old and has an entire nation of resources. And more.
The mythic create demiplane ritual is not the only way someone can create a demiplane. It's just the only one we've currently published for PLAYERS to access in 2nd edition remastered rules.
While I don't want to rely on "different rules because NPC," at the very least the example you provided here gives us a reason why Karzoug is an exception, so I'm happy to have an example of how an exception could exist without necessarily breaking immersion. Thank you for that.
I suppose I understand the reasoning for these rituals being mythic. I still can't say I'm a fan of these rituals being mythic by default since it'd be nice to make these options exist for non-mythic games in the printed rules.
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While I don't want to rely on "different rules because NPC," at the very least the example you provided here gives us a reason why Karzoug is an exception, so I'm happy to have an example of how an exception could exist without necessarily breaking immersion. Thank you for that.
I suppose I understand the reasoning for these rituals being mythic. I still can't say I'm a fan of these rituals being mythic by default since it'd be nice to make these options exist for non-mythic games in the printed rules.
The element of "explaining things when they're different and giving reasons" is something that's so baked into my design philosophy for adventure writing and lore creation that I flat out forgot to mention that. It's a very important step, since yes, you can create what you want if you're the author, but you need to justify it with story.
I like having examples like this of how things should work in "the normal way" (i.e usually how PCs do it) and how NPCs usually circumvent those same rules. For example, even when NPCs were functionally like PCs mechanics-wise in PF1e (like Karzoug who was a 20th level wizard 20) it was quite common and accepted that NPCs (and specially villains) usually get access to stuff that PCs normally wouldn't though X or Y means and its fine because those are narrative tools that work for narrative mediums (like books, videogames, or in this case TTRPGs).
However, I still think mythic create demiplane isn't a good move. I'm not part of the "casters are bad" crew, but I would be lying if I didn't thought PF2e has "normalized" casters both in mechanics and lore. Not like create demiplane is a caster specific thing anymore, but rituals are certainly caster-coded and they are the ones that usually do them best too. Probably this is why some rituals had to be restricted?
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I'm not a fan of Create Demiplane personally, so it doesn't exist. Imprisonment and Freedom are great rituals, but I bumped them up to 9th rank. I'm also getting rid of the mythic system because I think it's silly. I'm looking at some of the mythic spells, and if any of them seem to fit the vibe of the adventure I'm running I may add them with a "You may cast one of these, once a day, and you become Doomed 2 as you feel unearthly and otherworldly powers take notice of you." Exemplars don't exist at all, so I don't have to worry about them. I do like the Animist, but none of my players are playing one so it doesn't really matter.
Haven't noticed Paizo taking away my stuff so I guess they're fine with it.
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The rituals printed in War of Immortals aren't sitting right with me. It's not that I have a problem with the rituals in-and-of themselves, but I can't say I'm fond of classics like Create Demiplane, Imprisonment, and Freedom are now inaccessible to anyone who lacks mythic power.
Like, are evil wizards all suddenly going to have to get into the real estate market? In THIS economy!? Jokes aside, I dislike the idea that one must be mythic to seal away the immortal evil, or magically reinforce a structure. This feels like a needless restriction on rituals that are already tagged uncommon or rare, and thus plainly subject to GM discretion to begin with.
I mean, rituals were already so niche and underused/undervalued that I honestly don't think most any homegame will be meaningfully impacted by relegating certain rituals (especially the highest level, most powerful rituals) to Mythic, and most APs already have means to either make these things automatic or unnecessary in the first place. The whole "more than one way to handle an adventure/encounter" schtick.
As for the narrative/lore of the game, a lot of characters who already have access to these abilities are likely already Mythic in-lore (such as Nex and Geb), which means it doesn't really break the setting's immersion, either. The lore doesn't really acknowledge Joe the Average having a Demiplane all of his own, nor are we having a lot of home games where characters like Wally the Whimsical Wizard have his own Whimsical Warehouse to operate his Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe from, so the idea that Mythic is either an on/off button for games, or that the game is missing something by relegating these things to Mythic, just doesn't track.
And really, worst case scenario, you can mechanically still use the old versions of the rituals in question, if you still have the old books they came from, or if you reference them in the Archives of Nethys, so the idea that they are technically truly "gone" from standard games is only true if the GM doesn't allow it in the first place, and if they won't allow it because it's a Rare ritual that disrupts the pacing of the game, they probably wouldn't allow it in the Mythic rules either.
I can understand making Freedom require Mythic because you can have as many tries as you want before your Crit Fail and screw yourselves. But Imprisionment requires the party to keep the subject pinned in a specific 10 foot area for an entire day. Pulling that off on a Mythic Monster with Mythic Resilience is such an incredible feat that the people doing it pretty much already need to be Mythic themselves anyway. It just feels like denying an option to non-Mythic parties for particularly hard to kill non-Mythic monsters.
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I think it would be useful to cleave a difference between "this powerful wizard has created a building that is larger on the inside than on the outside" and "an actual demiplane." Since previously in the history of Pathfinder one could create like a 30x30 extradimensional space, which doesn't really feel "mythic" to me.
The lore doesn't really acknowledge Joe the Average having a Demiplane all of his own, nor are we having a lot of home games where characters like Wally the Whimsical Wizard have his own Whimsical Warehouse to operate his Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe from,I'm ok with the idea that characters below level 20 shouldn't have the ability to create demiplanes. but a player character at the maximum level of 20, same level as creatures like Xotani, the Firebleeder—a Spawn of Rovagug—cannot create demiplanes.
Level 20 represents the pinnacle of character development. The rarity of level 20 characters is such that you can't even purchase one in any settlement, including a metropolis, Come on! at this point you can't be called average or anyone anymore.
Level 20 isn't an excuse to break the game or let you do whatever you want as a player/character, nor should you be using creatures who don't even follow PC rules as examples of power that players should be able to emulate. Plus, if you wanted to be technical, you don't even need to be 20th level to make this effect; as long as you had access to the ritual, the reasonably earliest you could do this is like 17th level. Extrapolating that Spawns of Rovagug should be able to do these things makes no sense, as they are special creatures (in fact, these are probably the most likely creatures to be given Mythic treatment over any other creature type), nor are they capable of powerful magic like creating Deminplanes, so it's essentially a non-sequitur to bring them up as power comparisons, because it's like saying a Wizard is as powerful as a Fighter is. No, they are just both good at two completely different, irrelevant things. And really, even if we use a more accurate example (like Nex/Geb, or even Tar-Baphon), we don't need rules or abilities for them to do these things. The lore and the setting says they can do it regardless of whether they can do so mechanically or not.
As a side question, how many games do you think actually reach that level, where Joe the Average becomes Joe the Juggernaut, or Wally the Whimsical Wizard becomes Wally the Wicked Wizard of the West? It might be more than the previous edition, since we have adventures designed from 1 to 20 now, and the game balance is less likely to turn players away from the system, but that doesn't mean a whole lot when the major reason why games don't reach that level is simply because the players fizzle out from their groups (and not exactly because the system breaks down, either). Again, this is the smallest niche of effects and magic that is honestly best relegated strictly to GM FIAT/plot devices at-best for the players, or strictly for the narrative/setting at-worst, and the setting doesn't account for player-generated characters. (At least, until they become part of the GM's repertoire after the characters are 'retired,' but that's a whole different conversation/expectation entirely.)
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In the past most actual heads of state that were given stat blocks have been in that 12-17 range. So what being level 20 probably lets you do is "be in a mover or shaker in a major political or cultural entity" or "literally save the world." It should not allow you to rearrange the continents- that's the realm of mythic.
There are limits to what a normal PC of a given level can accomplish, and mythic exists to largely transcend those limits.
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Interestingly, it makes them stronger, since rolling with Mythic Proficiency makes the math much more favorable for the PC. Imprisonment in particular is probably far better for it's intended use case.
If casting this kind of ritual ever come up in my games, I think I'll use this homebrew rule :
If one use an artifact as focus for the ritual, it substitute the use of a mythic point. A ritual cast this way is modified in a special way, as the artifact become the focus point of the ritual. If the ritual have a continuous effect (any ritual with a duration, along with create demiplane and emprisonment), the artifact become bound the the place it took place (or the demiplane if it was a create demiplane ritual) and if it's ever destroyed or taken away from that place, the effect of said ritual instantly end (a demiplane start unraveling but doesn't instantly poof out of existence). If the ritual have no duration (as for freedom), the artifact is badly affected by it, which prevent the casters from using it anymore (for a freedom spell, the artifact become trapped instead of the freed target, for other rituals, the artifact may temporaly lose power, be whisked away from the casters by higher powers, or could even be outright destroyed if the ritual was anathema to the nature of the artifact).
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The lore and the setting says they can do it regardless of whether they can do so mechanically or not.
As a reasonably casual GM who hasn't memorized all the Lore I'd make a pretty strong argument that the Lore and Setting HAVE just changed at my table.
If I ever cared whether some powerful NPC could do something I'd at least glance at the rules first to see if there was something that was close enough for my needs. Pre War of the Immortals I'd have found a ritual Create Demiplane and gone "Yeah, BigBadMagicUsingBob would have access to that ritual, I'll build him a Demiplane".
Post War of the Immortals (well, when Create Demiplane makes it to Archives anyway :-) :-)) I'd find that the ritual was Mythic and so go "Oh, this is off limits for BigBadMagicUsingBob. Not something he is supposed to be able to do. No reason to override the setting, he's not THAT special. Guess I'll have to make his sanctuary some castle in the Swamp.".
So, my setting has just changed.
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Interestingly, it makes them stronger, since rolling with Mythic Proficiency makes the math much more favorable for the PC. Imprisonment in particular is probably far better for it's intended use case.
Also somewhat ironically given the explanation that these should be special things that only the greatest can do... the primary caster only has to be Trained in the skill now.
So we've gone from "only the greatest masters of Arcana/Religion/Occultism/Religion can even attempt this" to "a Mythic Fighter who picked up a skill because a class granted skill was already trained by their background can attempt this and have exactly the same proficiency modifier as someone who is legendary at that skill."
For a reasonable chance at success, your secondary casters are really going to want as much proficiency as they can get, but it's utterly irrelevant to the primary caster now (and with the extra +2 it got easier than it was in premaster).
That is... a thing.
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The lore and the setting says they can do it regardless of whether they can do so mechanically or not.As a reasonably casual GM who hasn't memorized all the Lore I'd make a pretty strong argument that the Lore and Setting HAVE just changed at my table.
If I ever cared whether some powerful NPC could do something I'd at least glance at the rules first to see if there was something that was close enough for my needs. Pre War of the Immortals I'd have found a ritual Create Demiplane and gone "Yeah, BigBadMagicUsingBob would have access to that ritual, I'll build him a Demiplane".
Post War of the Immortals (well, when Create Demiplane makes it to Archives anyway :-) :-)) I'd find that the ritual was Mythic and so go "Oh, this is off limits for BigBadMagicUsingBob. Not something he is supposed to be able to do. No reason to override the setting, he's not THAT special. Guess I'll have to make his sanctuary some castle in the Swamp.".
So, my setting has just changed.
This is a strawman, because that statement does not refer to PCs, it refers to NPCs, like Nex/Geb and Tar-Baphon, if you read the sentence prior. NPCs of the setting do not follow PC rules, meaning they can have as many Demiplanes as the setting says they have. PCs are still grounded by game mechanics, meaning they cannot do the things NPCs can do, like automatically succeed at skill checks for crafting items regardless of bonuses or level requirements (i.e. hiring experts, transferring runes, etc.), have ridiculous bonuses/DCs despite being low level entities, not be adhered to the proficiency/scaling rules of the game, so on and so forth. Legit, NPCs and monsters have as many or as little rules as you want them to have, especially when they are all-powerful like deities, or significant setting NPCs like I've mentioned before, where they can just do things, and they happen. PCs can't do that, which is why you need abilities and modifiers to support their activities.
At best, we can argue that it's changed for the players, which really, the only change is that it's now behind an optional rule versus a rarity rule, but fundamentally NPCs and other setting-based entities have not changed. They will still have the same amount of Demiplanes, minions, etc. because the setting still says they do. Mechanical changes to player options are irrelevant to lore changes to the setting.
Interestingly, it makes them stronger, since rolling with Mythic Proficiency makes the math much more favorable for the PC. Imprisonment in particular is probably far better for it's intended use case.Also somewhat ironically given the explanation that these should be special things that only the greatest can do... the primary caster only has to be Trained in the skill now.
So we've gone from "only the greatest masters of Arcana/Religion/Occultism/Religion can even attempt this" to "a Mythic Fighter who picked up a skill because a class granted skill was already trained by their background can attempt this and have exactly the same proficiency modifier as someone who is legendary at that skill."
For a reasonable chance at success, your secondary casters are really going to want as much proficiency as they can get, but it's utterly irrelevant to the primary caster now (and with the extra +2 it got easier than it was in premaster).
That is... a thing.
Well, sort of, you still want the high level ability modifier (ideally primary, with your apex) for the skill and an item boost.
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This is a strawman,
As a reasonably casual GM who hasn't memorized all the Lore I'd make a pretty strong argument that the Lore and Setting HAVE just changed at my table.
You're totally missing my point.
A month ago if I was creating a base for a powerful magic using enemy part of my process would be to glance at high level spells and rituals in order to see if something sparked my imagination, seemed like a cool thing.
So I'd look up rituals on Archives of Nethys, quickly glance down the list (its pretty short) and maybe see Create Demiplane. Click through. Maybe go "Cool, lets do that".
Today (or, at least, when Archives gets updated) I'd do the same thing. Click through. See that Create Demiplane was Mythic. And very likely just go "Nah, don't want something Mythic".
So the setting HAS changed for my players. A month ago they'd possibly have gotten to adventure in a demi plane, perhaps had a whole bunch of adventures where they try to figure out where the base is, how to access it, etc. As players they'd get to interact with the demiplane rules, with the create demiplane ritual or the brand new "Enter Demiplane" ritual that I decide to create. Now they get a different set of adventures where they eventually find the base in a swamp, or behind a teleport circle, or whatever.
In MY version of Golarions demiplanes have just become much, much, much rarer.
While I know that I can change things if I want to my default position is to use the setting presented to me unless I have a good reason to change things. My default position is that rules for PCs DO apply to NPCs unless I have a good reason to change things.
So, a month ago Create Demiplane was a spell my NPCs could use and my PCs could encounter. Now, its not (I have no intention of using Mythic, it is just totally not to my tastes) unless I do something that I CAN do but very, very likely will NOT do.
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This is a strawman,
As a reasonably casual GM who hasn't memorized all the Lore I'd make a pretty strong argument that the Lore and Setting HAVE just changed at my table.You're totally missing my point.
A month ago if I was creating a base for a powerful magic using enemy part of my process would be to glance at high level spells and rituals in order to see if something sparked my imagination, seemed like a cool thing.
So I'd look up rituals on Archives of Nethys, quickly glance down the list (its pretty short) and maybe see Create Demiplane. Click through. Maybe go "Cool, lets do that".
Today (or, at least, when Archives gets updated) I'd do the same thing. Click through. See that Create Demiplane was Mythic. And very likely just go "Nah, don't want something Mythic".
So the setting HAS changed for my players. A month ago they'd possibly have gotten to adventure in a demi plane, perhaps had a whole bunch of adventures where they try to figure out where the base is, how to access it, etc. As players they'd get to interact with the demiplane rules, with the create demiplane ritual or the brand new "Enter Demiplane" ritual that I decide to create. Now they get a different set of adventures where they eventually find the base in a swamp, or behind a teleport circle, or whatever.
In MY version of Golarions demiplanes have just become much, much, much rarer.
While I know that I can change things if I want to my default position is to use the setting presented to me unless I have a good reason to change things. My default position is that rules for PCs DO apply to NPCs unless I have a good reason to change things.
So, a month ago Create Demiplane was a spell my NPCs could use and my PCs could encounter. Now, its not (I have no intention of using Mythic, it is just totally not to my tastes) unless I do something that I CAN do but very, very likely will NOT do.
I think this is a really good way of saying what I felt too. Demiplanes were already a rarity and something that, when used by BBEGs, didn't really need explanations because yeah it wasn't a common thing but BBEGs are kind to be expected to have access to weird stuff. Now if I (GM) want to use a demiplane in a campaign that isn't mythic I have to come up with a way for the BBEG to actually have a way to create a demiplane. This probably sounds silly but it adds extra steps to something that really didn't need to have them, because as I said in previous comments, demiplanes are a flavor thing.
I honestly don't like mythic. Its implementation leaves a lot to be desired and I often feel like I'm jumping through hoops for no apparent reason when the system could have been way simpler and much more of the tastes of people that liked the 1e or WoTR equivalent without making it overpowered in the process (I'm not saying it is overpowered, kinda the opposite in fact). This plus changes to rituals and such to make them mythic kinda "lessens" mythic in a sense, to the point that I think Paizo is trying to make mythic a more common thing in the setting. Yes, PCs can already do stuff that belongs in the realm of myth heroes with ease, but in the context of PF being "mythic" was getting the closest to the realm of gods that a mortal could ever be, while right now mythic is just...bland? I don't even know which word I could use to describe it.
This is a strawman,
As a reasonably casual GM who hasn't memorized all the Lore I'd make a pretty strong argument that the Lore and Setting HAVE just changed at my table.You're totally missing my point.
A month ago if I was creating a base for a powerful magic using enemy part of my process would be to glance at high level spells and rituals in order to see if something sparked my imagination, seemed like a cool thing.
So I'd look up rituals on Archives of Nethys, quickly glance down the list (its pretty short) and maybe see Create Demiplane. Click through. Maybe go "Cool, lets do that".
Today (or, at least, when Archives gets updated) I'd do the same thing. Click through. See that Create Demiplane was Mythic. And very likely just go "Nah, don't want something Mythic".
So the setting HAS changed for my players. A month ago they'd possibly have gotten to adventure in a demi plane, perhaps had a whole bunch of adventures where they try to figure out where the base is, how to access it, etc. As players they'd get to interact with the demiplane rules, with the create demiplane ritual or the brand new "Enter Demiplane" ritual that I decide to create. Now they get a different set of adventures where they eventually find the base in a swamp, or behind a teleport circle, or whatever.
In MY version of Golarions demiplanes have just become much, much, much rarer.
While I know that I can change things if I want to my default position is to use the setting presented to me unless I have a good reason to change things. My default position is that rules for PCs DO apply to NPCs unless I have a good reason to change things.
So, a month ago Create Demiplane was a spell my NPCs could use and my PCs could encounter. Now, its not (I have no intention of using Mythic, it is just totally not to my tastes) unless I do something that I CAN do but very, very likely will NOT do.
Really, spells are probably the only thing that NPCs use closest to PCs, and even then a lot of them have special/exclusive versions of spells that PCs can't hope to acquire (like 1-action versions of spells, or unique/specific spells), so the idea that NPCs have to adhere to PC rules is still a little silly to me. I seriously don't know why you need to look up rituals for anything unless your plan is to serve it as loot to the party, and even then I can think of numerous other things that are better rewards, since rituals are a trash mechanic with an even trashier purpose.
The only thing that's changed is for your players is the rules that they can use/have access to, not the setting. The entities that have had Demiplanes before Mythic rules came out will be the same entities that have Demiplanes once the Mythic rules hit the streets. At best, the perceptions of the setting have changed, since we can now mechanically (as well as narratively) say that Demiplanes are a Mythic ability, but as far as what the setting actually is? Nah, still the same old stuff. Even with the complaint of "My table never wants to use the Mythic ruleset," given that the character is already likely 20th level, retired, and made an absolute name for themselves, it's quite likely that the character, narratively speaking, has already become the stuff of legends and Myths, and the impact on that between games is likely slim to none anyway.
The things that I can say that the setting genuinely changed were the timelapse between the two editions, as well as the results of PF1 APs being converted into canon "endings" throughout the timelapse (if they were even made canon at all), as well as whatever content was forced to change as a result of the Remaster, between the restrictions placed on Dragons, the changes in the Underdark, the new names/lore for the planes, etc. And some of those things may be mechanical, other things not, but in the end, Demiplanes are at-best a mechanical change, and not a narrative/setting one (or at the very least, absolutely not an impactful one).
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Interestingly, it makes them stronger, since rolling with Mythic Proficiency makes the math much more favorable for the PC. Imprisonment in particular is probably far better for it's intended use case.Also somewhat ironically given the explanation that these should be special things that only the greatest can do... the primary caster only has to be Trained in the skill now.
So we've gone from "only the greatest masters of Arcana/Religion/Occultism/Religion can even attempt this" to "a Mythic Fighter who picked up a skill because a class granted skill was already trained by their background can attempt this and have exactly the same proficiency modifier as someone who is legendary at that skill."
For a reasonable chance at success, your secondary casters are really going to want as much proficiency as they can get, but it's utterly irrelevant to the primary caster now (and with the extra +2 it got easier than it was in premaster).
That is... a thing.
You can totally be a 20th level Wizard without ever raising your Arcana above Trained. You can totally have INT 10 too BTW.
And that is per RAW PC creation rules.
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PF2 is much more intricately bound to the Golarion setting than 3.5/PF2 ever was.
I have no problems with the rules mirroring what the authors want for the setting.
Homebrew is the appropriate thing for any such high-level high narrative impact rituals as those described here IMO.
Not just any PC, no matter their level, will be able to use them willy nilly in the canon Golarion (and APs and adventures) and I am perfectly happy with this.
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PF2 is much more intricately bound to the Golarion setting than 3.5/PF2 ever was.This sucks for anybody who wants to disentangle the rules from the awful theme park setting the game takes place in.
Homebrew is the appropriate thing for any such high-level high narrative impact rituals as those described here IMO.Paizo didn't seem to think that until they needed to sell the problematic Mythic rules, because these rituals used to be unrestricted.
Not just any PC, no matter their level, will be able to use them willy nilly in the canon Golarion (and APs and adventures) and I am perfectly happy with this.Nobody is using rituals "willy nilly" anyway given their requirements. This is a terrible restriction that does the thing PF2 seemingly loves to do, taking a core thing you used to be able to do in older versions/editions of the game and selling you back a nerfed version of it later.
The idea that PCs should only be able to impact the world in very narrow ways is also a horrible conceit. The PCs, the players at the table in front of you, should have vastly greater narrative impact on the game than a designer who isn't present for your game. Any GM that thinks otherwise is a poor excuse for one and needs to understand that the table isn't there to listen to their story or to play a bone stock prewritten adventure with no room for them to change things.
Well, like it or not, PF2 has clearly been putting the power back into the GM's hands from its very playtest.
It is not a new thing.
And IME it has created more fun for the players rather than less.
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Well, like it or not, PF2 has clearly been putting the power back into the GM's hands from its very playtest.It is not a new thing.
And IME it has created more fun for the players rather than less.
PF2 does no such thing. It makes the game easier to run by kneecapping most things that GMs found difficult to plan around, but that doesn't actually give them any greater agency than they've always had. If you felt disempowered as a GM in older editions it once again points to your own weakness as a GM.
More fun is highly subjective and likely highly corelated to how aligned your desires in a TTRPG are with the direction PF2 has gone are. Given how common threads about players and GMs alike bouncing off PF2 are it seems like only a small slice of the TTRPG playing pie finds it fun at all.
Excuse the ignorance but how is making the game easier to run not putting power back in the GM's hands? If you're spending less time on-the-fly balancing the system, you have more time and attention to spend on actually running the game.
Also I really don't think you can use the commonality of quitting threads to determine how popular something is. No matter what game, system or hobby you're in there's always loads of quitting threads. People have been making them for 5e forever and that's still around and popular.