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First off, apologies if this is in the wrong discussion thread.
And with that, on to the main topic: Should staff weapons (staff, bo staff, bow staff, khakkara, gaff, whipstaff, fighting stick, cane, sword cane sheath, and any other staff weapon Paizo might come up with/release) get their shared weapon group, rather than be lumped together with clubs? Because I think they should!
I will admit, some of this is personal bias: when I think of someone fighting with a club, I think a hulking brute smashing in skulls with their clubs using overhead swings. Meanwhile, I imagine someone deftly striking with their staff, taking advantage of the many ways, they can hit the opponent with their staff. Force vs Finesse, as it were.
However, I also feel this way as help a great deal with clarifying rules in the cases where a staff would apply, but a club DOES NOT. Exhibit A, the prerequisite for the Staff Acrobat archetype:
trained with at least one of the following weapons: staff, bo staff, halfling sling staff, or any weapon in the spear or polearm group (referred to in this archetype as “your staff”)
Quite the mouthful, isn't it? The rules even have to give it a shorthand in order to not overload the archetype with text.
Now, you may feel the need to point out 'This is from Premaster material'. You are correct, but I have another example of this problem from Remastered material:
NOBLE BRANCH
IKON
WEAPON IKON
Usage: a staff, bo staff, fighting stick (Pathfinder Lost Omens
The Mwangi Expanse 86), khakkara, or any weapon in the
spear or polearm weapon group
Again, notice how they needed to SPECIFICALLY include staff weapons by their names!? It's almost like Paizo knowns on some level that a staff is so much more than a club?!? And notice how, by having to name the specific staff weapons... the leave out other weapons with 'staff' in the name that should quality!?!?
(Oh, and for anyone who wants to know why I didn't include the halfling sling staff in my staff weapons grouping, it's simple. There are no rules for using halfling sling staff as a melee weapon in 2e... FOR SOME REASON...)Now sure, you can just talk to your GM and get the unmentioned staff weapons included... but what about in PFS (which I've never played but seems to operate on a strict 'rules as written' policy, based on what others have posted).
So yeah, making staves into their own weapon group could smooth over some mechanical issues too.
The TLDR version? "While all staves may be clubs, not all clubs are staves. Paizo seems to be aware of this too. And by forcing staves to be considered clubs, we leave them out of what makes them staves."
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Well... the problem seems to be both of their own making, and only harming themselves.
Yes, having to specify staff-type weapons in an explicit list is a bit annoying. But Paizo devs are the ones that have to fit that onto the page limits - not me.
For me, if a player asks if they can take Staff Acrobat archetype and select a Whipstaff as their chosen weapon, that is a decision that I can make on my own. I can add it to the list of staff-like weapons without too much thought.
PFS leadership can do the same if they want.
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Are there enough staves to make up a whole group?
I'm not against the idea, it would make staves more interesting, especially when applied to the twisting tree hybrid study, but I can only think of a handful of staves that aren't ancestry-tied.
That being said, it would offer up some fun space. I'm imagining new rules for making spellcasting staves another type of staff, which could be fun for gishes.
According to the Archives, I got SIX staves from the Club group:
- Staff
- Bo Staff
- Bow Staff
- Gaff
- Khakkara
- Whipstaff
Sling Staves... are not staves, they're oversized slingshots ^^;
The Halfling Sling Staff feels like an error for the Staff Acrobat archetype, because it's not a melee weapon :O
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According to the Archives, I got SIX staves from the Club group:
- Staff
- Bo Staff
- Bow Staff
- Gaff
- Khakkara
- WhipstaffSling Staves... are not staves, they're oversized slingshots ^^;
The Halfling Sling Staff feels like an error for the Staff Acrobat archetype, because it's not a melee weapon :O
Staff slings are real weapons and are indeed a staff with a sling on top, they actually work like a handheld trebuchet. Real staff slings don't ends in a Y-shaped split that cradles a sling, like the Halfling Sling Staff description says. so I think you are right that Halfling Sling Staff are just oversized slingshots in PF2e, or maybe a slingshot on top of a walking stick.
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Staff slings are real weapons and are indeed a staff with a sling on top, they actually work like a handheld trebuchet. Real staff slings don't ends in a Y-shaped split that cradles a sling, like the Halfling Sling Staff description says. so I think you are right that Halfling Sling Staff are just oversized slingshots in PF2e, or maybe a slingshot on top of a walking stick.According to the Archives, I got SIX staves from the Club group:
- Staff
- Bo Staff
- Bow Staff
- Gaff
- Khakkara
- WhipstaffSling Staves... are not staves, they're oversized slingshots ^^;
The Halfling Sling Staff feels like an error for the Staff Acrobat archetype, because it's not a melee weapon :O
For those who've never seen one, here's an interesting video on the history and mechanics of the real-world staff sling.
The illustration of the halfling sling staff in PC1 (page 280) matches the historical staff sling rather than the book's written description, so I suspect that in the rush to do the remaster someone just forgot to update the text to match the design change.
Combination weapons weren't a thing yet when the CRB came out, but I'd love it if the halfling sling staff eventually got updated to be one. That would also make its use with Staff Acrobat make sense.
Alternatively, Paizo could introduce the historical staff sling as a combination weapon — perhaps dealing less ranged damage than the halfling sling staff so as not to make the halfling sling staff obsolete.
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I will admit, some of this is personal bias: when I think of someone fighting with a club, I think a hulking brute smashing in skulls with their clubs using overhead swings. Meanwhile, I imagine someone deftly striking with their staff, taking advantage of the many ways, they can hit the opponent with their staff. Force vs Finesse, as it were.
This seems to be a not uncommon impression, but as someone who has used and taught staff in medieval reenactment for many years, I can tell you it's not true. Staves are big clubs. Yes, you have more options in how you strike, but it's still all about hitting hard with a blunt, heavy object.
If your sling staff ever gets into melee, wouldn't it be a Flail weapon ^^; ?
Also, isn't there a feat that allow sling users to whack targets with a loaded sling, or was it a P1E stuff?
If your sling staff ever gets into melee, wouldn't it be a Flail weapon ^^; ?
Also, isn't there a feat that allow sling users to whack targets with a loaded sling, or was it a P1E stuff?
I suspect that you are thinking of the PF1 Sling Flail feat.
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If your sling staff ever gets into melee, wouldn't it be a Flail weapon ^^; ?
Read the PF1e entree:
It says the staff is used like a club as a melee weapon
Are there enough staves to make up a whole group?
I'm not against the idea, it would make staves more interesting, especially when applied to the twisting tree hybrid study, but I can only think of a handful of staves that aren't ancestry-tied.
That being said, it would offer up some fun space. I'm imagining new rules for making spellcasting staves another type of staff, which could be fun for gishes.
According to the Archives, I got SIX staves from the Club group:
- Staff
- Bo Staff
- Bow Staff
- Gaff
- Khakkara
- WhipstaffSling Staves... are not staves, they're oversized slingshots ^^;
The Halfling Sling Staff feels like an error for the Staff Acrobat archetype, because it's not a melee weapon :O
You forgot Fighting Stick
And I'd also like to note, Hammer only has seven weapons to its grouping.
Also, if I had to guess, Sling staff was included because it could still be used as a balance of acrobatics. Who knows? Might be removed if the Archetype is reprinted.
I will admit, some of this is personal bias: when I think of someone fighting with a club, I think a hulking brute smashing in skulls with their clubs using overhead swings. Meanwhile, I imagine someone deftly striking with their staff, taking advantage of the many ways, they can hit the opponent with their staff. Force vs Finesse, as it were.This seems to be a not uncommon impression, but as someone who has used and taught staff in medieval reenactment for many years, I can tell you it's not true. Staves are big clubs. Yes, you have more options in how you strike, but it's still all about hitting hard with a blunt, heavy object.
As you have real-world experience, I concede to your point.
I would however, like to note one thing: you indeed can use a staff as a club, but you can also use a staff like a sword or spear, whereas I'm not so certain a club could be used like a sword or spear.
Mangaholic13
Right now, that it's... kinda "unsafe" to use P1E material and ruling ^^;
A sling staff may be a staff, but if you were gonna use it in melee, you'd likely use a loaded cup for better damage, similar to a flailpole, which is a flail on top of a pole.
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Mangaholic13
Right now, that it's... kinda "unsafe" to use P1E material and ruling ^^;
A sling staff may be a staff, but if you were gonna use it in melee, you'd likely use a loaded cup for better damage, similar to a flailpole, which is a flail on top of a pole.
Point taken.
However, this thread is about how Staffs Do or Do not deserve their own weapon group.
If you want to talk about how the Halfling Sling Staff should be a flail when used in melee (and SHOULD have the ability to function as a melee weapon), please make a thread about that.
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I will admit, some of this is personal bias: when I think of someone fighting with a club, I think a hulking brute smashing in skulls with their clubs using overhead swings. Meanwhile, I imagine someone deftly striking with their staff, taking advantage of the many ways, they can hit the opponent with their staff. Force vs Finesse, as it were.This seems to be a not uncommon impression, but as someone who has used and taught staff in medieval reenactment for many years, I can tell you it's not true. Staves are big clubs. Yes, you have more options in how you strike, but it's still all about hitting hard with a blunt, heavy object.
Not my experience -- I used very different techniques with maces and staves. But I've only used long 2-handed staves. So I can see where a one-handed staff could be used like a club.
But honestly if I'm using a piece of wood in one hand like a club, I'd probably call it a club and not a staff to begin with. It's the magic item terminology that makes things confusing.
Mangaholic13
Right now, that it's... kinda "unsafe" to use P1E material and ruling ^^;
A sling staff may be a staff, but if you were gonna use it in melee, you'd likely use a loaded cup for better damage, similar to a flailpole, which is a flail on top of a pole.
Point taken.
However, this thread is about how Staffs Do or Do not deserve their own weapon group.
If you want to talk about how the Halfling Sling Staff should be a flail when used in melee (and SHOULD have the ability to function as a melee weapon), please make a thread about that.
Do they deserve their own groups? Yes, they do... provided Paizo can give them a new critical effect.
Would the Sling Staff belong in that new Staff group? Maybe not, because logically, the Sling Staff would be a Flail, unless it's a Combination weapon between a sling and a staff.
I mean, if you read the Staff Acrobat archetype's abilities, pretty much none of them can apply to a Sling Staff, because you simply cannot use it in melee like a staff ^^; You can't Shove or Trip with a Sling Staff :p
To that point, I think a better question is, why are boomerangs, clubs, frying pans, mace, nunchaku, saps, and staff all in the same group?
However, this thread is about how Staffs Do or Do not deserve their own weapon group.
Hmmm...
- There's no Thrown group for Boomerangs.- Frying pans are fancy clubs, essentially.
- Maces and saps are non-primitive clubs.
- Nunchakus... used to be Flails back in P1E. No joke, you can compare right now. If I had to guess, it's because their "flailability" doesn't work well due to the tiny chain ^^;
I suspect that weapon were assigned to groups with the fantasy of the crit specialisation as the main concern - see how crossbows had to pick up a new crit specialisation when they got separated out. If you hit a person really hard with a frying pan, a staff, and a club, would something different happen? Probably not.
The Staff, in P2E, is now a ONE-handed weapon, with the Two-Hand trait.
I think THAT's why staves were bundled with clubs ^^;
I would however, like to note one thing: you indeed can use a staff as a club, but you can also use a staff like a sword or spear, whereas I'm not so certain a club could be used like a sword or spear.
I think it's fairer to say you can use a sword or spear like a staff. You can bash someone with a sword, or do a butt strike with a spear, but you can't slice or pierce with a staff, even if you're thrusting it like spear.
According to the Archives, I got SIX staves from the Club group:
- Staff
- Bo Staff
- Bow Staff
- Gaff
- Khakkara
- WhipstaffSling Staves... are not staves, they're oversized slingshots ^^;
The Halfling Sling Staff feels like an error for the Staff Acrobat archetype, because it's not a melee weapon :O
Staff slings are real weapons and are indeed a staff with a sling on top, they actually work like a handheld trebuchet. Real staff slings don't ends in a Y-shaped split that cradles a sling, like the Halfling Sling Staff description says. so I think you are right that Halfling Sling Staff are just oversized slingshots in PF2e, or maybe a slingshot on top of a walking stick.
Honestly even if you picture a staff sling like a lacross stick you can sure as heck use a lacross stick like a staff weapon. There is a reason for the armor they wear when playing it haha.
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It depends,
Is it a large staff
… or just a publicist and a girl-friday.
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I would however, like to note one thing: you indeed can use a staff as a club, but you can also use a staff like a sword or spear, whereas I'm not so certain a club could be used like a sword or spear.I think it's fairer to say you can use a sword or spear like a staff. You can bash someone with a sword, or do a butt strike with a spear, but you can't slice or pierce with a staff, even if you're thrusting it like spear.
No, it really isn't.
And that section I bolded is part of my point. I agree that a staff can't cut or pierce like a sword or spear would, but my argument isn't about staves being the same weapon as a sword or spear. My argument is that, if a swordsman or spearman was deprived of their weapon, and a staff was in their grasp, they can use it just like their preferred weapon. But not with a club.There is a reason the staff is considered the Grandfather of All Weapons and is the one used to train for other weapons.
...Although, now that I think about it some more, I think another part of the problem is that what counts as a "club" can vary wildly as well.
It depends,
Is it a large staff
… or just a publicist and a girl-friday.
...I hate that I'm laughing.
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I suspect that weapon were assigned to groups with the fantasy of the crit specialisation as the main concern - see how crossbows had to pick up a new crit specialisation when they got separated out. If you hit a person really hard with a frying pan, a staff, and a club, would something different happen? Probably not.
You are right about the crit specialization effect. According to the definition of a weapon group on page 276 of the player core. "A weapon or unarmed attack’s group classifies it with similar weapons. Groups affect some abilities and what the weapon does on a critical hit if you have the critical specialization benefits for that weapon or unarmed attack;"
So weapons in the Group Club all have this as a crit effect. "You knock the target away from you up to 10 feet (you choose the distance)."
So weapon group is a purely game classification for weapon crit effect, and not related to weapons that would use similar skills. So my guess is that weapons groups are a way to prevent having to make unique crit effects for each weapon, and is unrelated to grouping weapons by similar skills to use them, using a Boomerang and a mace is 2 different skills. It might be less confusing if the weapon group was named after the effect they all have in common rather than just one of the weapons in the group.
So weapon group is a purely game classification for weapon crit effect, and not related to weapons that would use similar skills.
I don't think so.
A weapon or unarmed attack’s group classifies it with similar weapons.
And several things, such as Fighter's Weapon Mastery ability uses Weapon Group as a categorization tool.
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So weapon group is a purely game classification for weapon crit effect, and not related to weapons that would use similar skills.I don't think so.
A weapon or unarmed attack’s group classifies it with similar weapons.And several things, such as Fighter's Weapon Mastery ability uses Weapon Group as a categorization tool.
I quoted the same text from the player core page 276 in my last comment.
"A weapon or unarmed attack’s group classifies it with similar weapons. Groups affect some abilities and what the weapon does on a critical hit if you have the critical specialization benefits for that weapon or unarmed attack;"
The in-game critical specialization effect is the only thing the weapons in the Club group have in common. A real boomerang has nothing in common with a mace. It's fine if the game wants to group them that way, and if a Fighter's Weapon Mastery ability using groups just means the fighter is learning a group of weapons even if the weapons in that group are different.
My only point is PF2e is built around game balance, not realism, so I don't see the need to make a group for just staffs to shorten the description of one feat. If PF2e started caring more about being more realistic then by all means I like to see staffs get their own group.