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I'm also not seeming to be a fan on the Animist.
Certain base options become worse as you gain levels even though they should scale with you, and other options don't scale very well past when you initially take them. And really, the Apparitions for spellcasting become a strait-jacket for how you want to play, almost as bad as the Wizard curriculums (well, since the Animist is meant to be the Wisdom parallel to the Wizard, I suppose it makes sense they are balanced against a garbage feature), with the only benefits being that you can swap them as you want/need, in a sense. That being said, just because you can flip-flop features as you want doesn't really mean much when they are majorly garbage, or only become solid at certain level intervals, so it feels like it is a "play a certain way at certain levels to win encounters" sort of class; again, not unlike Wizard, but given how bad the Wizard class was received by the masses, both Premaster and Remaster, I don't understand the design decision to retread unfavored ground. To see if they can do a better job at it? Maybe, but I'd rather see Paizo do something new and different, instead of see if they can improve on something old they did by putting a new spin on it and seeing if that works.
Not to mention, why are we giving the Animist all these Lore benefits, when they are absolutely terrible with Lore skills based on the factor that they aren't Intelligence-based? Meanwhile, the actual Intelligence-based classes, have little or nothing to do with a feature that was clearly meant to let Intelligence-based classes shine. And from what I can tell, they don't really do much to interact with the Lore skills option other than limit what sort of feats they can use/take at a given time, which, while they can be super flexible (even more than Fighter bonus feats are), feels quite disappointing.
...I'm gonna be honest, I have NO idea what you're talking about Bringer of Pain.
How is the Animist 'The Wisdom parallel' of Wizard? Besides having prepared spell slots, how are they similar? Why aren't the Cleric and Druid the Wisdom parallels of the Wizard???Also, your gripes about the Animist's Lore skills sounds more like a gripe with the skill system (or attribute system) in general, rather than the Animist.
And what base options become worse as you level up? I feel like this needs examples.
I agree with many points Darksol raises. The straightjacket feeling is real, if you don't choose the Apparitions that have good spells then you end up being closer to a 2 slot caster. This is an issue I face with my Animist (I use Custodian of Groves and Gardens and Stalker in Darkened Boughs and their spells are garbage).
And the extra Lore skills are nice thematically but rather useless mechanically, both because they are extremely limited and because there's not much incentive to raise Intelligence on an Animist.
Now, I find the class super nice. So even if it's not strong I'll certainly have fun with it.
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That people would see a class with the defenses of a Druid, raw spell output that ends up being one slot shy of a Sorcerer's, and more flexibility than any other caster as weak is absolutely wild to me. Steward of Stone and Fire + Channeler's Stance makes you a top-tier blaster, Witness to Ancient Battles + Forest's Heart lets you make melee Strikes and Reactive Strikes with martial accuracy from 30 feet away (in fact, at level 16 you'll be more accurate than most martials), and picking a Liturgist lets you do all of this while moving around at full speed. That some apparitions have weaker or more situational spells at best isn't really an issue on a class that can swap out their entire spell repertoire on a daily basis, while also preparing from the full range of divine spells. Becoming equivalent to a 2-slot caster because you picked the wrong apparitions (apparitions, plural, and with between 2 to 4 chances to pick at least one that's useful, you really have to try hard to pick nothing but useless apparitions for your current adventuring day) is like saying a prepared caster sucks because you prepared nothing but instant pottery in all of your slots: that is very much an avoidable issue, and does not describe what the class can do when played properly.
In general, one of the issues I'm seeing is that the Animist gets very close to 1e-style design where there are some absolutely broken comboes and synergies within the class, you just know where to look and what to pick. I can imagine an Animist suffering when all of their moving parts aren't optimized properly, but if used to full effect, they can legitimately outdo specialists while having the flexibility to swap to a different specialty each time. Even the less powerful subclasses still encroach on the niche of others, and when you compare a Shaman to a divine Witch, it's clear that the Animist was treated far more generously than even the latter class during their remaster.
I agree with many points Darksol raises. The straightjacket feeling is real, if you don't choose the Apparitions that have good spells then you end up being closer to a 2 slot caster. This is an issue I face with my Animist (I use Custodian of Groves and Gardens and Stalker in Darkened Boughs and their spells are garbage).
And the extra Lore skills are nice thematically but rather useless mechanically, both because they are extremely limited and because there's not much incentive to raise Intelligence on an Animist.
Now, I find the class super nice. So even if it's not strong I'll certainly have fun with it.
Do you not feel the level 2 feat Embodiment of Balance fixes the apparition slot issue? So you take it if you feel like you have some bad apparition slots and don't if it feels unnecessary.
...I'm gonna be honest, I have NO idea what you're talking about Bringer of Pain.
How is the Animist 'The Wisdom parallel' of Wizard? Besides having prepared spell slots, how are they similar? Why aren't the Cleric and Druid the Wisdom parallels of the Wizard???
Also, your gripes about the Animist's Lore skills sounds more like a gripe with the skill system (or attribute system) in general, rather than the Animist.
And what base options become worse as you level up? I feel like this needs examples.
It is the parallel because it's power levels, thought processes, and gameplay expectations are comparable. Wizards were balanced around always having the right spells for the right encounters; same with Animist, but it has more flexibility while having restrictive choices linked to Apparitions, not unlike restrictive spells linked to Schools. Did I also mention they get an option similar to Wizards via a Familiar option that automatically scales? And really, short of having the Lore skills tied to accessible class feats, they are relatively pointless, whereas on a class actually built on studies and scholarship, they would make the Wizard really, really good at being a pseudo-skill monkey.
You can't tell me that an Animist is fairly balanced against a Cleric with Fonts (and finally some decent class feats) or a Druid with solid Focus Spells and extreme versatility that doesn't require changing things in and out all the time. Also, neither of those classes have Lore benefits, useless as they are, and it's not like they couldn't make those Lore skills Wisdom-based, because they did this for the Alchemist with Medicine, and they did this for the Thaumaturge with their Monster Lore or whatever. And really, my skill gripe has more to do with "Intelligence-based feature on non-Intelligence class," not Lore skills as a whole. It feels like the Lores thing was an afterthought that was shoehorned in as a means of controlling what feats you can/can't use.
One example was the feat where you get Harm/Heal as Apparition spells. These are only at 1st level, do not scale, and cannot heighten. It is entirely possible they aren't meant to, because they are "bonus spells," but given that they are spells whose sole value is determined by their heightening, I would put the feat more valuable if it was Bane/Bless instead, since +1/-1 on allies/enemies is more valuable over the course of levels, and it still conveys the same flavor and everything.
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One example was the feat where you get Harm/Heal as Apparition spells. These are only at 1st level, do not scale, and cannot heighten. It is entirely possible they aren't meant to, because they are "bonus spells," but given that they are spells whose sole value is determined by their heightening, I would put the feat more valuable if it was Bane/Bless instead, since +1/-1 on allies/enemies is more valuable over the course of levels, and it still conveys the same flavor and everything.
I might be misunderstanding you here but the heal/harm you get from Embodiment of the Balance do scale as all apparition spells are signature spells.
One example was the feat...
You gain Heal/Harm as Apparition spells. And all apparition spells are signature spells.
What do you mean they don't heighten?
I'll boil it down to Pathbuilder error then, since it wasn't letting me put in heightened Heal/Harm in the respective slots; it would only let me put in the specific spells from your Apparition choices at the specific levels, heightening be damned.
Do you not feel the level 2 feat Embodiment of Balance fixes the apparition slot issue? So you take it if you feel like you have some bad apparition slots and don't if it feels unnecessary.
First, it costs a feat. Second, it gives you access to 2 spells you already have access to through the Divine spell list. So it feels off to me. It kind of fixes the issue, but it's unsatisfying, both in its way to solve it and in the need for it to be fixed...
That people would see a class with the defenses of a Druid, raw spell output that ends up being one slot shy of a Sorcerer's, and more flexibility than any other caster as weak is absolutely wild to me.
I strongly disagree with most of your post. It's a 3-slot caster, it's in the low end in terms of flexibility and you are mostly speaking of the strongest options (Steward of Stone and Fire and Liturgist) and high level play. So maybe there'll be one true Animist build but I disagree with the class as a whole being anywhere close to strong.
First, it costs a feat. Second, it gives you access to 2 spells you already have access to through the Divine spell list. So it feels off to me. It kind of fixes the issue, but it's unsatisfying, both in its way to solve it and in the need for it to be fixed...
It’s a low-level feat that adds two extremely strong signature spells to your repertoire, on a divine spell caster who also gets to add fireball, quandary, and roaring applause to their repertoire, all at the same time (also, both spells let you trigger Cardinal Guardians on any apparition). It is an extremely strong feat that complements an already extremely strong class.
I strongly disagree with most of your post. It's a 3-slot caster, it's in the low end in terms of flexibility and you are mostly speaking of the strongest options (Steward of Stone and Fire and Liturgist) and high level play. So maybe there'll be one true Animist build but I disagree with the class as a whole being anywhere close to strong.
So first off, you’re incorrect, as the Animist gets 4 slots per rank on all but their 2 top spell ranks. Second, your opposition is meaningless, as those options are available to every Animist. If your claim is that the Animist isn’t overstrong when you specifically avoid strong options and also play poorly, then you are implicitly admitting that the Animist is overstrong, and deploying mental gymnastics to sidestep the fact. In general, it’s very much starting to look like the superficial assessments of the Animist being weak seem to come from not understanding how the class works or how to put their mechanics to proper use, and in cases like these deliberately refusing to acknowledge elements of the class that particularly stand out.
So first off, you’re incorrect, as the Animist gets 4 slots per rank on all but their 2 top spell ranks.
And their 9 first (and most played) levels. So it's a 3 slot caster with a twist.
Second, your opposition is meaningless, as those options are available to every Animist.
Obviously, everyone can play the one true build. Still, it doesn't make the Animist a good class but the Steward of Stone and Fire Liturgist a good build.
play poorly
Teach me :)
We will again have to agree to disagree.
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I think it is going to take a year for the dust to settle on the good and bad animist options. There will be some obvious paths that will appear very strong out of the gate (which is good), but I think some of the trickier combos won't become obvious until you get a feel for the limitations of what you can accomplish with your actions in a turn, how survivable you can be with such a heavy push to be up in the thick of everything, and what roles your party is expecting you to cover.
The fact that you can be so many different things with very little permanent choices going to them though means that this class is going to experience a fair bit of the wizard complaints in that if you build it to do only one thing, you are leaving a ton of your power budget untouched.
Like "I am never going to fight in melee" is something many casters try to make true, and the Animist has some good blasting options that might push some players to build this way, but then you are pretty much shutting yourself out of like half the apparitions, and a bunch of the feats. It is very much a "yes, and" class, who's success will hinge on the player's ability to get maximum efficacy out of their action economy.
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And their 9 first (and most played) levels. So it's a 3 slot caster with a twist.
Claiming that a caster that gets 8 spell slots above 3 per rank is a "3 slot caster with a twist" is like claiming the Summoner is "a martial with a twist". Those extra spell slots make a difference, and if they don't, then the animist shouldn't have to have them in their progression.
Obviously, everyone can play the one true build. Still, it doesn't make the Animist a good class but the Steward of Stone and Fire Liturgist a good build.
As already pointed out, though, even with weaker options the Animist still eats other classes' lunch. Again, look at how much more power and flexibility a Shaman has compared to a divine Witch. It's not that the Animist becomes too strong when you go for certain options, the Animist is extremely strong even with weaker subclasses and apparitions, and the stronger options only push that further.
Teach me :)
We will again have to agree to disagree.
I mean, I did in fact already point to several synergistic comboes, like Steward of Stone and Fire + Channeler's Stance or Witness to Ancient Battles + Forest's Heart, so you could learn something if you genuinely wanted to, but let's face it... you don't want to. Your stance here is that the Animist is weak, and that stance only works if you ignore all of the many things that make the Animist strong. This is why when faced directly with evidence contradicting your point of view, you chose not to update your opinion, but instead to come up with excuses to keep ignoring said evidence. That's fine, and you don't have to change your mind if you don't want to, but if you're going to keep arguing on this thread, you should ask yourself how worthwhile your arguments are if they hinge on misinformation and willful ignorance.
Like "I am never going to fight in melee" is something many casters try to make true, and the Animist has some good blasting options that might push some players to build this way, but then you are pretty much shutting yourself out of like half the apparitions, and a bunch of the feats. It is very much a "yes, and" class, who's success will hinge on the player's ability to get maximum efficacy out of their action economy.
This is a very good point: I initially thought the class made equal use of Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma as a fourth score, but as you point out, forgoing Strength means not making full use of spells like embodiment of battle (though I maintain the spell is secretly really good on ranged weapon builds). In order to lean fully into the gishier aspects of their playstyle, or at least have equal access to all of their apparitions, the Animist is likely going to want to build Strength as a fourth score. I'll bring this up in John R.'s animist guide thread.
Claiming that a caster that gets 8 spell slots above 3 per rank is a "3 slot caster with a twist" is like claiming the Summoner is "a martial with a twist".
During half of your career you're a 3 slot caster, and during the other half a 3.5 slot caster. So, 3-slot caster with a twist is a perfect description. Your "1 less slot than a Sorcerer" on the other hand is factually wrong.
As already pointed out, though, even with weaker options the Animist still eats other classes' lunch. Again, look at how much more power and flexibility a Shaman has compared to a divine Witch. It's not that the Animist becomes too strong when you go for certain options, the Animist is extremely strong even with weaker subclasses and apparitions, and the stronger options only push that further.
We don't have the same point of view. You're really liking the Animist, nothing wrong in that as I also find the class rather interesting. But I clearly disagree when you say it "eats a divine Witch's lunch". They are both very different and will shine for different things.
And I really don't see where you find the Animist strong. In my opinion, you see more in it than there is.
I mean, I did in fact already point to several synergistic comboes, like Steward of Stone and Fire + Channeler's Stance or Witness to Ancient Battles + Forest's Heart
I did not take the time to debunk all your combos one by one. Steward of Stone and Fire doesn't work with Channeler's Stance as you won't have enough actions to use them. Witness to Ancient Battles + Forest's Heart is a level 16 combo which is rather irrelevant to me as I play less than 1% of my games at that high a level (and I'm sure I'm not the only one, even when going from level 1 to 20 you'll play 25% of your games at level 16+).
In order to lean fully into the gishier aspects of their playstyle, or at least have equal access to all of their apparitions, the Animist is likely going to want to build Strength as a fourth score.
You know you don't have to play a gish Animist? Healing Animist should go for Charisma, as does blaster Animist. Skill Monkey Animist will go for Intelligence. Ultimately, you'll have to choose your fourth attribute depending on your desired playstyle.
During half of your career you're a 3 slot caster, and during the other half a 3.5 slot caster. So, 3-slot caster with a twist is a perfect description. Your "1 less slot than a Sorcerer" on the other hand is factually wrong.
A 19th-level Animist will have 36 spell slots, whereas a Sorcerer will have 37. If my grade school-level math serves me right, 36 is one less than 37. So no, I don't think I'm being factually wrong here. In this same vein, I don't think there's really any sense in downplaying the Animist as a "3.5 slot caster", whatever that means: what we seem to be in agreement over, though, is that the Animist gets more slots than a 3-slot caster, so calling them "a 3-slot caster" was in fact what was factually wrong.
We don't have the same point of view. You're really liking the Animist, nothing wrong in that as I also find the class rather interesting.
[...]
And I really don't see where you find the Animist strong. In my opinion, you see more in it than there is.
I don't think you have a very good grasp of my perspective here, as I have been rather unambiguously critical of the Animist and have even pointed to several of their shortcomings, notably how complicated they are and how at risk the class is of becoming very samey. I'm not defending the class here, I am pointing to all of the things that make them rather obviously stronger than other casters. I suppose that when you deliberately ignore the Animist's extra spell slots, massive day-to-day flexibility, massive in-day flexibility owing to having a repertoire full of nothing but signature spells, top-tier blasting with an overpowered vessel spell and stance, top-tier gish potential with another vessel spell that adds +3 to your attack and damage rolls plus a stance that lets you melee and grapple from 30 feet away, and exceptionally flexible and powerful feats that are direct upgrades to what other casters have, then perhaps the Animist might read as nothing special to you, but at that point it's really not about the Animist at all, is it?
But I clearly disagree when you say it "eats a divine Witch's lunch". They are both very different and will shine for different things.
Are they, though? For starters, both are divine prepared casters, except the Animist gets to prepare from the full list, while the divine Witch prepares from a limited subset. Both get a familiar with extra abilities, and both get a familiar that returns to them in the next daily preparations if they die. The Witch may get a special cantrip and a bonus familiar ability at level 1, but that in my opinion is peanuts compared to more spell slots, better HP, better armor proficiencies, Wisdom as a key attribute, better focus spells, a whole extra repertoire of signature spells to choose from and swap out every day, and stronger feats overall. The Witch's entire shtick is supplementing your spellcasting with an extra-good familiar and, up until now, that class was the only one allowed to have it respawn every day, rather than every week. The Animist gets that perk on a 1st-level feat, a massive boon compared to any other Familiar feat you can have on a class. Additionally, the Witch's shtick with their hexes is being able to supplement their spellcasting with a single-action sustained spell... which the Animist does to much greater effect. It's not apples to oranges; the Animist very much outdoes the divine Witch at their speciality here.
I did not take the time to debunk all your combos one by one. Steward of Stone and Fire doesn't work with Channeler's Stance as you need 4 actions to use them.
Lol, what? No you don't, you enter Channeler's Stance + Cast a Spell on your first turn, and on your second you cast earth's bile and Cast a Spell to start double-dipping on the status bonus. With Apparition's Quickening, you can start using your vessel spell on your first turn, with Cardinal Guardians you can yo-yo between 2 apparitions to get an effective +2 to all of your blast spells' accuracy, and with Cycle of Souls you don't even need to spend an action to enter the stance anymore. I don't even know how you even came to the "4 actions" conclusion in the first place.
Witness to Ancient Battles + Forest's Heart is a level 16 combo which is rather irrelevant to me as I play less than 1% of my games at that high a level (and I'm sure I'm not the only one, even when going from level 1 to 20 you'll play 25% of your games at level 16+).
"I won't play this, so it literally does not exist" isn't you debunking anything, it's just trying to dismiss something on the grounds of personal inexperience. This combo exists, is the point. You may as well not have bothered to try "debunking" the combos I pointed out, because your attempts further prove my point that the opinions of the Animist as a weak class appear to stem from ignorance and a general lack of understanding of how the class works.
You know you don't have to play a gish Animist? Healing Animist should go for Charisma, as does blaster Animist. Skill Monkey Animist will go for Intelligence. Ultimately, you'll have to choose your fourth attribute depending on your desired playstyle.
I'm sorry, how exactly does Charisma benefit a healing Animist? You're right, a player doesn't have to play a gish Animist, but if you don't build Strength, you're not going to make good use of several of the class's vessel spells. That's totally fine, because there's lots more to choose from, but it does mean that building Strength will further enhance your versatility even if you choose not to be a gish for the day, in a way that picking Intelligence or Charisma will not.
Huh?
Since when?
I didn't want to enter long description on that...
Roughly, blasting asks for a 2-action spell. Then you have one action left for... either Earth's Bile or Channeler's Stance. You won't be able to use them simultaneously. So it's no "combo", it's just not working.
Stances only need the action once though, not every turn?Huh?
Since when?
I didn't want to enter long description on that...
Roughly, blasting asks for a 2-action spell. Then you have one action left for... either Earth's Bile or Channeler's Stance. You won't be able to use them simultaneously. So it's no "combo", it's just not working.
Blasting asks for a lot of momentum. You will blast during round 1, maybe 2. After that, the impact of blasting goes down with the number of enemies and the difficulty to position your areas. So if you start losing time during round 1 preparing yourself... then you just failed at being a blaster.
Also, Channeler's Stance only affect your Vessel and Apparition spells. Blasting mostly focus on high level spells, so you'll have a couple of spells benefitting from Channeler's Stance and then it'll just improve Earth's Bile. So you won't last long as a blaster.
On the other hand, Dangerous Sorcery exists, it gives the Channeler's Stance bonus without asking for any action for all your slotted spells. So if you care about blasting you should go this direction instead of ending up with a near useless Channeler's Stance.
A 19th-level Animist
Again?
Additionally, the Witch's shtick with their hexes is being able to supplement their spellcasting with a single-action sustained spell... which the Animist does to much greater effect.
You're speaking of a preremaster Witch. Stoke the Heart + Familiar or Restored Spirit + the blasting from Spirit Familiar are really handy. I agree Witch is not the best class out there, but Animist doesn't completely overshadow it. You can do things with a Witch.
I don't even know how you even came to the "4 actions" conclusion in the first place.
As I said in a previous post, you can write off Channeler's Stance and grab Dangerous Sorcery instead. The impact on damage will be higher and without having to pay this useless action.
I'm sorry, how exactly does Charisma benefit a healing Animist?
Obviously, when the only build you consider is the gish Animist, you won't understand how to build the other types of Animist.
That's laughable white-room math that ignore even basic stuff you should take into account.
White-room? I have played 3 blasters as of now, one being my main character. So I do think I have some experience with blasting.
And yes, finding an action to activate a Stance when you need to use 2 actions to cast a spell and have from your class a nice 1-action sustainable blast spell when, as you point out, you also need sometimes to move... Well, if you ever find it give me a call. I know I won't.
Strangely, I think the people who activates tons of abilities simultaneously by shoehorning them into their 3 actions per rounds are the ones being a bit too much in the white-room.
Again?
Yes. So long as you keep repeating the same false claims, I will keep debunking them in the same way with easily-retrievable facts. I would advise against this kind of attrition war in a forum, as by nature it grinds discussion to a halt, so I would perhaps move on and accept that the Animist gets more spell slots than a 3-slot caster.
You're speaking of a preremaster Witch. Stoke the Heart + Familiar or Restored Spirit + the blasting from Spirit Familiar are really handy. I agree Witch is not the best class out there, but Animist doesn't completely overshadow it. You can do things with a Witch.
I am in fact speaking of the post-remaster Witch. Saying the Animist doesn't beat the Witch at their specialty because the Witch can "do things" is incredibly vague, especially given how the Animist can also "do things" with their familiar with Apparition Cloud and easily supplement protection and offensive utility of their own. Literally any class can "do things", that does not mean others can't still do those things better, or do those things in comparable measure while doing other things on top.
As I said in a previous post, you can write off Channeler's Stance and grab Dangerous Sorcery instead. The impact on damage will be higher and without having to pay this useless action.
I mean, if we're including pre-remaster feats in this discussion, then you're right, the Animist could pick Dangerous Sorcery and have an even easier time doing exactly what I've just described. Congratulations on discovering a synergy that makes the class even more overpowered than what was already described.
Obviously, when the only build you consider is the gish Animist, you won't understand how to build the other types of Animist.
This sounds an awful lot like trying to dodge the question. It also doesn't seem like you really understand my comment about building Strength on the Animist: it's not that the gish Animist is the only build out there, it's that building Strength lets you become a gish from one day to the next. Similarly, any Animist can become a healer or a blaster from one day to the next, or even just one encounter to the next (or even within the same encounter, for the low low price of a 1st-level feat and a single action). Strength adds to this flexibility in a way that directly synergizes with the Animist's mechanics; I asked about Charisma because the attribute does no such thing, beneficial as it may be in other ways. That you would think of all these builds on the Animist as permanent to me reveals just how much you're not realizing where the Animist's power comes from, and how they differ from other classes.
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I think it best for the discussion that you both simply agree to disagree and move on to some other thread, or other aspect of this this thread.
I think it best for the discussion that you both simply agree to disagree and move on to some other thread, or other aspect of this this thread.
What made me mostly react is the reduction of the Animist to one single build: The gish Animist. Many people read these threads and they may think Strength is the natural way to build an Animist when there are also Charisma and Intelligence based builds.
But you're right that things can be done in a more constructive way. So I'll explain how you can build a healer out of an Animist that sets itself appart from the basic Divine/Primal caster next to them.
Most healing abilities in the game are either on a long timer (slotted spells, Battle Medicine) or incredibly limited (Lay on Hands, Kineticist healing). The only exception to that being the Chirurgeon Alchemist that has a low timer and quite some healing abilities but even this one ends up being rather limited in healing output (roughly 4 Elixirs of Life, which is nice but nothing baffling).
The crux of the healer Animist is Garden of Healing. It's on a low timer and it can actually heal a lot, both from it's duration and from the fact that it heals multiple characters. Unfortunately, it's not usable "as is":
- As it has a really small AoE and because it affects enemies you will have to move a lot to use it, effectively burning 2 of your actions. So if you expect to mix it with 2-action Heals, you'll quickly realize that you either can't Sustain it or that you'll have to drop less 2-action Heals and end up with an unimpressive healing output.
- Another issue of Garden of Healing is that it heals really few hit points per target. So you'll need to maximize the number of targets to make it worth it... and unfortunately in many fights there'll be a primary target and no one else to heal otherwise.
But there's a natural combo to it with Life Link from Oracle Dedication.
Life Link heals a bit but more importantly redirects damage done to your allies towards you during a minute. Like Garden of Healing it's a multi-target heal over time (not exactly a heal, but damage reduction is rather equivalent in effect to healed hit points). It also only costs one action to cast and nothing to Sustain it. The main drawback of Life Link is that it reduces your hit points, and unlike preremaster Oracle the remaster Oracle doesn't have extra hit points to survive so it's a bit hard to use as of now.
And here's the nice combo: Life Link redirects damage to yourself and Garden of Healing then heals it. So you remove Life Link issue of damaging yourself and helps Garden of Healing low healing output.
Overall, you'll heal 1d4 per spell rank from Garden of Healing and Life Link redirects 3/5/10/15 damage at levels 1/3/6/9. So the progression is 8 hit points per round at level 4 (the earliest you can get Life Link), 12.5 at level 5, 15 at level 7, 17.5 at level 9, 25 at level 11, 27.5 hp at level 13, 30 at level 15, 37.5 at level 17 and 40 at level 19. And that's multi target healing.
And obviously it doesn't prevent you from using 2-action Heals when you have these 2 actions available.
So in my opinion that makes a very solid healer and, unlike most healers, one that mostly uses easily renewable resources. So you keep all your spell slots for other things.
Animist can heal, sure, but every (sub)class with even a vague focus on healing will do that better.
I think the build I just laid out is competitive against most healers. If you build an Animist to do something, you end up competitive. But you need to pay the feats and character options to make it happen, it won't happen just because you took Apparition X or Y.
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If you build an Animist to do something, you end up competitive. But you need to pay the feats and character options to make it happen, it won't happen just because you took Apparition X or Y.
I agree with your basic point here. To be really good at something you have to build your character for that.
But I think that you're underestimating the value of how versatile this class can be. This is ESPECIALLY true in something like PFS but even with a regular group flexibility can have lots of hidden power.
As an example, you grab yourself some Plate Mail and invest at least a bit in every stat except Dexterity.
At low levels the flexibility only really comes when you know ahead of time the niche you have to fill (eg, in a PFS scenario where you find there is no healer, no blaster, no front liner, etc). Once you get 3+ apparitions you can be much more dynamically flexible (switching to a blaster role when you are suddenly faced with a huge number of enemies attacking from several different directions, switching to a healer when your primary healer goes down, etc).
Sure, you won't be a GREAT blaster but taking Steward of Stone and Fire and throwing down some fireballs will do the job most of the time.
And you're not a GREAT front liner but turning into a Huge Earth Elemental will likely get the job done when you run into a Golem impervious to your magic.
You can't build to cover ALL the bases in a semi competent manner but you can certainly build to cover 3 or 4 of them.
And that is a significant part of what the Animist brings to the table. Or so my Playtest experience showed me and so my theorizing tells me (haven't played an actual Animist yet :-)).
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But I think that you're underestimating the value of how versatile this class can be. This is ESPECIALLY true in something like PFS but even with a regular group flexibility can have lots of hidden power.
Agreed, this is the exact point I've been making as well. Although building Strength on an Animist will make you a better gish, the point is that it doesn't lock you into being a gish: you can also become a healer with Custodian of Groves and Gardens, a controller with Reveler in Lost Glee, a blaster with Steward of Stone and Fire, even all three within the same day, plus a gish on top with a fourth apparition. You can certainly pick feats that will supplement one of those playstyles over the others, but the advantage to the Animist is that they have quite a few feats that they can swap out during daily preparations, on top of divine spells they can prepare to complement their apparition choice. Whereas some other classes are frequently locked into a single playstyle due to their build choices, the Animist has the freedom to swap out their entire playstyle from day to day, from encounter to encounter, or even from round to round with Circle of Spirits. The crucial part is that Strength is what helps unlock certain gish builds and make better use of certain apparitions; it does not require the Animist to commit themselves to a pure gish playstyle.
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This is my thinking too. The class is very versatile and doesn’t do any specific specialization very well. The thing about STR is that you have in class spells and feats that want it and don’t really do anything if you don’t have it. Even with a 0 in INT you can still use the crafting spell just fine to make something when you need it. If you can use harm and heal as apparition spells, it’s not even that big a deal to have a secondary apparition that you don’t have much use for for a day if you have something special you can do with some consumables.
Getting a +2 in Charisma to get a dedication is going to cost you a lot, especially when you can access both the Druid and cleric with your main attribute. Honestly, outside of a Free Archetype game, I don’t see the Animist having feats to spare to do much with a dedication. Giving up wandering feat slots in particular will incredibly lock your build down
The thing about STR is that you have in class spells and feats that want it and don’t really do anything if you don’t have it.
I honestly don't see this. There are some completely skippable maneuver feats that want Str and Devouring Dark Form but that's about it. With 10 apparitions, having 1 you can't use the Focus spell for is hardly a great loss as it the 2 or 3 feats that involve maneuvers.
As such, I find Str completely skippable, even if I was building to be swapping roles.
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I also feel like the complaints regarding the Apparition skills, those are putting way too much on the idea of "if you don't invest in Int, they're useless!", and completely overlooking that your Animist's proficiency in them scales up to Master.
Does that mean I think they're super useful lore skills? No.
Architecture isn't going to be useful in the wilderness.
Ocean won't help in a desert.
But, in the end, you don't have to spend anything to get them, and they CAN be useful in the right situations. Some more than others, obviously.
But I think that you're underestimating the value of how versatile this class can be.
I don't think I am (but I definitely fail at conveying the nuance of my point of view). Versatility is part of every caster, it's not because you're a Cleric that you can't cast a Fireball. The Animist will be able to switch if it is built for it. And in general it comes down to how you build it.
For example, in the aforementioned healing oriented build, I can easily fit Foretell Harm. So, by switching to Steward of Stone and Fire I'll be a good blaster. But I don't have Strength and as such won't be able to use Embodiment of Battle.
Teridax posts are conveying the wrong information that you should build for Strength because it should allow you to be everything an Animist can be. It's wrong. For example, you won't be able to switch to Custodian of Groves and Gardens because you don't have the supporting feats (well, you'll be able but for out of combat purposes, in combat it'll be worse than just casting Heal).
That's why I speak about Strength, Charisma and Intelligence as secondary attributes. Strength will allow you to maximize gishy abilities, Charisma castery ones and Intelligence skill monkey ones. But you can't have all 3 attributes as high as you want. So Charisma and Intelligence Animists will use Darkened Forest Form for gishiness. It'll be rather fine but still not as good as a properly built Strength based Animist. Gish and Intelligence Animists will just be plain Divine casters when it comes to healing, they won't be able to improve healing above the baseline. Intelligence Animists will often have a rotating Apparition to benefit from the Lores of the terrain they are on, and also Crafter in the Vault for 2 extra Legendary skills. But they'll be super limited when it comes to combat as they will in general just have one main Apparition for it (which is not bad, they'll just not switch often during combat and as such can ignore Circle of Spirits).
Roughly, most Animists will be built with a main Apparition. There's no point in building for multiple main Apparitions (outside level 9+ Medium) as you can't know beforehand what you will face. They will have some abilities to switch but it's costly: Circle of Spirits is one action, so you either won't cast a spell during this round or lose your Sustained spell, so you won't switch Apparitions on a regular basis. It'll be meant for extreme cases where your main Apparition is not usable or another Apparition is so useful that it'll justify the lost action.
As my Animist is a rewrite of a Lore Oracle, I've obviously looked closely at both Charisma and healing abilities. Teridax (and a lot of other posters) tend to gravitate towards gishiness. It'd be great to have someone coming with a good skill monkey Animist to show how to get the best of an Intelligence build. Well, especially for the discussion about Animist builds (there are 2 parallel discussions about the Animist so it's hard to know in which one I am :D ).
Teridax posts are conveying the wrong information that you should build for Strength because it should allow you to be everything an Animist can be. It's wrong. For example, you won't be able to switch to Custodian of Groves and Gardens because you don't have the supporting feats (well, you'll be able but for out of combat purposes, in combat it'll be worse than just casting Heal).
Continuing to address me in the third person with further arguments isn't exactly moving on from the argument, and comes across as both bitter and dishonest given how you supported a post urging us to move on. I would also ask you not to flat-out lie about what I've said, as you've done here:
Although building Strength on an Animist will make you a better gish, the point is that it doesn't lock you into being a gish: you can also become a healer with Custodian of Groves and Gardens, a controller with Reveler in Lost Glee, a blaster with Steward of Stone and Fire, even all three within the same day, plus a gish on top with a fourth apparition. You can certainly pick feats that will supplement one of those playstyles over the others, but the advantage to the Animist is that they have quite a few feats that they can swap out during daily preparations, on top of divine spells they can prepare to complement their apparition choice. Whereas some other classes are frequently locked into a single playstyle due to their build choices, the Animist has the freedom to swap out their entire playstyle from day to day, from encounter to encounter, or even from round to round with Circle of Spirits. The crucial part is that Strength is what helps unlock certain gish builds and make better use of certain apparitions; it does not require the Animist to commit themselves to a pure gish playstyle.
Emphasis added. I never claimed Strength "should allow you to be everything an Animist can be", acknowledged the need for Circle of Spirits to switch apparitions within an encounter, and never claimed Strength allowed you to do this without the feat. I similarly also acknowledged that you can in fact complement your multiple playstyles with feats and divine spells, and pointed out that the Animist is exceptionally flexible in that regard too due to the wandering trait. It is a demonstrable fact that Strength directly benefits several of the Animist's options, and thus that building Strength on an Animist will provide you with more viable options to choose from. By contrast, it is your own claim of the impossibility of switching apparitions that is wrong, as even without Circle of Spirits the Animist can swap apparitions daily and also swap apparitions in-between encounters, allowing them to fill out multiple roles within the same day. Please stop spreading disinformation like this, as it is harmful to intelligent discussion.
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I didn't once think "Strength build" while reading the class.
Like, wut?
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I didn't once think "Strength build" while reading the class.
Like, wut?
There are a couple of vessel that boost strikes, so Strength can be appealing if you want to use them.
Though I'm not sure why some people are acting like this is some kind of grand revelation.
I didn't once think "Strength build" while reading the class.
Like, wut?
I think a lot of people wont on a first read, but if you build an animist, and you want to take advantage of the versatility the class offers, it starts to become apparent that having no investment in STR will result in a surprising number of dead options. There are multiple feats and vessel spells that turn out to want you pretty close up in the thick of combat and that you have medium armor to not really need to hyper focus on Dexterity.
Also, you don't have enough top rank apparition spell slots to really be a full time blaster caster and your in-class feats don't support doing it for more than one or two encounters a day.
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I think a lot of people wont on a first read, but if you build an animist, and you want to take advantage of the versatility the class offers, it starts to become apparent that having no investment in STR will result in a surprising number of dead options. There are multiple feats and vessel spells that turn out to want you pretty close up in the thick of combat and that you have medium armor to not really need to hyper focus on Dexterity.
Also, you don't have enough top rank apparition spell slots to really be a full time blaster caster and your in-class feats don't support doing it for more than one or two encounters a day.
For me, it's like stating that Fighters have to be Dexterity based because there's lots of feat and class features around archery.
There is support for Strength in Animist, on that we all agree. But it's a type of Animist, not something all Animists should think about. Darkened Forest Form being the obvious example of an Apparition that literally negates the point of being Strength-based, it wouldn't be there if high Strength was an underlying assumption.
I think a lot of people wont on a first read, but if you build an animist, and you want to take advantage of the versatility the class offers, it starts to become apparent that having no investment in STR will result in a surprising number of dead options. There are multiple feats and vessel spells that turn out to want you pretty close up in the thick of combat and that you have medium armor to not really need to hyper focus on Dexterity.
Also, you don't have enough top rank apparition spell slots to really be a full time blaster caster and your in-class feats don't support doing it for more than one or two encounters a day.
For me, it's like stating that Fighters have to be Dexterity based because there's lots of feat and class features around archery.
There is support for Strength in Animist, on that we all agree. But it's a type of Animist, not something all Animists should think about. Darkened Forest Form being the obvious example of an Apparition that literally negates the point of being Strength-based, it wouldn't be there if high Strength was an underlying assumption.
Its more like suggesting that tanking Dex just because you get heavy armor is a bit of a mistake for most fighter builds, because you get more feats than you really need to do your main thing well, and because you get a flexible one that you can keep in a ranged weapon to be very effective with it as well as maintaining excellency in your primary melee weapon. Yes you can MC to pick up spells to cover your ranged attack situations if you want, but they are not going to be better than having a decent dex (like starting with a 12 or 14) to use with thrown or ranged attacks, and then keep boosting it as you level. Many players might think that the Fighter's weapon focus means the class is either or, but there are thrown weapons in a number of good weapon groups that can easily let a fighter double dip and be exceptionally effective at either ranged or melee combat.
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I think a lot of people wont on a first read, but if you build an animist, and you want to take advantage of the versatility the class offers, it starts to become apparent that having no investment in STR will result in a surprising number of dead options.
A surprising number? I counted 3 with a quick skim, and that wasn't a surprise to me. You don't have Heavy armor proficiency, so medium and light armor can get you similar AC's and you'll want to raise Dex for saves anyway. It has weapon support but those work with ranged/finesse options.
It has some maneuver feats and a str based natural attack apparition and that's about all that NEEDS str. So I think I can "take advantage of the versatility the class offers" without touching Str without worrying that there are 3 options I don't want to take. I not sure where this 'you HAVE to take strength for versatility' came from.
The feats that give maneuvers require apparitions that you don't first think of with STR, but that end up working fairly well with your vessel spells in situations where you might use those feats. And they are wandering feats which means that you can pick them up for a day when you want them, and not the rest of the time.
Overall, the class pushes you to play pretty close to your enemies and to be ready to occasional make strikes against them. Even if you decide you want to go ranged weapons, your proximity to your enemies generally will make thrown weapons a very good option, and I am not arguing that STR has to be a 16 with this class, but that if you leave your STR at 10, you lose out on a lot of the class's versatility.
SO I wouldn't say that I am arguing that is a strength-based class, but that a decent amount of the classes options that you can pick up with a day's notice utilizes strength well, which probably isn't something that jumps out at most folks when they first look at the class.
SO I wouldn't say that I am arguing that is a strength-based class, but that a decent amount of the classes options that you can pick up with a day's notice utilizes strength well, which probably isn't something that jumps out at most folks when they first look at the class.
This is quite a big departure from "it starts to become apparent that having no investment in STR will result in a surprising number of dead options." If you want to say Strength is a viable option for a 4th stat, sure I'd agree. When you make it seem that you're cutting yourself off from a significant number of abilities from the class by not taking strength it's when I'll disagree.
that you can pick up with a day's notice
For me, that's the misleading issue. Being able to retrain half of your build on a daily basis is pointless, either you can also retrain stats, feats and equipment or no one cares.
I have a bit of a bias towards gishes, Strength builds and Athletics Maneuvers in general, so the idea that an Animist can play to all of these is very appealing to me.
Its easy enough to take Sentinel early for some heavy armor, as a melee Animist might not care as much about their low level feats, and Mighty Bulwark can be fit in later between Wandering feats (allowing you to drop Dex). And none of the above prevents you from taking Steward of Stone and Fire to go blasting when the opportunity arises. You're even encouraged to do so in a way, since the Steward grants access to both Blazing Spirit and Roaring Heart.
Yeah, as Graystone wrote, it's basically only a few feats that wants strength.
Devouring Dark Form: for grapples, but it's really inefficient, needs to use an additional action to grapple in the turn that you cast the spell.
lvl 6 Roaring Heart: Stride twice and Shove.
Lvl 8 Instinctive Maneuvers: Requires Relinquish Control
Lvl 16 Forest Heart; Again to be able to grapple, with the reach of 30ft.
So you basically need to build around the strength options as it will also take your skill ups to be used on Athletics
To me, neglecting strength completely means you're missing out on an entire vessel spell....but I'm the kinda person who wants the entire animist experience in one go....
But you aren't. At Heightened (2nd) and (5th) you get a battle form instead. So you're missing out on using it at levels 1 and 2? Hardly a game changer IMO.
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that you can pick up with a day's noticeFor me, that's the misleading issue. Being able to retrain half of your build on a daily basis is pointless, either you can also retrain stats, feats and equipment or no one cares.
You don't play PFS do you? :-) :-).
Its useful in other context but in PFS being able to substantially change your character at the beginning of the session when you see what others bring to the table is potentially massively useful.
And while you can't cover all the bases perfectly you CAN cover many bases fairly well.
One general feat (heavy armor proficiency), a bit of Str and a longspear with runes maybe a little behind where they COULD be and bang, you're an acceptable front liner.
Steward of Stone and Fire alone makes you a decent blaster.
Just pick heal spells in your slots and take Custodian and you're a healer.
Etc etc.
You don't need to retrain stats to be decent. Plate Mail. Starting stats of +1 Str, +0 Dex. +1 Con, +4 Wis, +1 Int, +1 Cha +1 where you want to slightly specialize if you want to be REALLY general.
Or focus a bit with one of those +3 and another 0
I think you're trying too hard to be excellent at something. Being good is usually enough.