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Howdy!
One of the things I'm excited about with WoI is the promise of new options for Nephalim, and I wanted to do a bit of fun speculation, because why not?
I had a look at what fiends/celestials don't have lineages yet, and the major standout for me was Divs. I can easily see a Divspawn (probably with a cooler name) heritage that lets you curse or otherwise undermine your target.
Does anyone else have any good bets on what we might see?
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I believe Valkyrie/Einherjar descended is one of the confirmed lineages.
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Besides the Valkyrie/Einherjar, Ganzi is the other one lineage confirmed for nephilim. I think that's it.
I believe Valkyrie/Einherjar descended is one of the confirmed lineages.Oh that's amazing! Do you know where was this confirmed? I have a character that I am playing that I play as a Ganzi specifically for access to the valkyrie/einherjar feats in the future. Still level one, and using the playtest exemplar as a class so it will be updated anyway when War of Immortals is released so I look forward to maybe update it's heritage too.
I remember it being covered in one of the reveals at recent Cons, but I'd have to go diving through coverage to find exactly where and when.
Edit: I found my source. Psi Prime Productions' summary of the September 2024 Livestream. So not technically a Convention reveal, I guess.
I believe Valkyrie/Einherjar descended is one of the confirmed lineages.Oh that's amazing! Do you know where was this confirmed?
Paizo Live September video on Youtube, they previewed a lot of things, that was one of them.
Our Animist seems to be a Nephilim, and judging by the antlers, I think she'd be a first world spawn (what the actual term of it will be, I do not know). That or potentially an Idyllkin spawned from agathions.
But, if Nephilim got a First World spawn, I think a Netherworld spawn would be an apt counterpart, as where the first world is between the Universe and the Forge of Creation, the Netherworld is between the Universe and the Void. Plus, such a spawn would be a convenient way to bring back Caligni while making it to where you can have non-human caligni.
From the blog post
Samo was spirit-touched, born with the mark of the elk, an angel’s golden eyes, and unusual insight.
Seems like she might be touched by Erastil, maybe the descendants of a Qarna (Horned Archon). "Mark of the Elk" seems Erastil-coded to me, but I think having 2 Erastil worshippers among my players skews my opinion on this.
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Samo was spirit-touched, born with the mark of the elk, an angel’s golden eyes, and unusual insight.Seems like she might be touched by Erastil, maybe the descendants of a Qarna (Horned Archon). "Mark of the Elk" seems Erastil-coded to me, but I think having 2 Erastil worshippers among my players skews my opinion on this.
I always start by thinking of the Empyreal Lord Cernunnos (The Stag Lord) myself.
I actually thought she had been confirmed as an empyrean/celestial nephilim long ago but I wouldn't know where to begin looking for evidence to back up any such spurious claims.
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Wonder if they will bring over Beastbrood, Faultspawn, Riftmarked, Shackleborn, Emberkin, Idyllkin and Plumekith. Basically all of the lineages from the Ancestry Guide. While Battle-blooded is new as a lineage, it kinda already existed under Ganzi in the form of two ancestry feats, one for einherji descended ("Glory and Valor!") and one for Valkyrie descended ("Arise, Ye Worthy!"), both also from ancestry guide. I wonder how much of the nephilim feats will just be bringing all that to the remaster. While not exactly new, it would be very good to have those lineages and feats officially brought to the remaster. If we include all those tiefling and aasimar lineages from the ancestry guide, ganzi divided into two lineages (The protean descended and de valkyrie/einherji descended) and aphorites we are already talking about 10 new lineages.
The only one amongst those I'd be worried about not coming back in the same way is the Beastbrood, since Rakshasa are now Spirits instead of Fiends. I'd expect them to more like be Remastered into their own Versatile Heritage, much like what has happened with the Hungerseed. The other assortment of lineages, I'm more comfortable expecting some to come back.
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I do think we are probably getting the already existing Outer Planetouched remastered, but I do hope we also get a sahkil lineage - fear-based outsiders are really evocative, conceptually, and it's a shame we've gone two editions without getting a planetouched option for them.
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I do think we are probably getting the already existing Outer Planetouched remastered, but I do hope we also get a sahkil lineage - fear-based outsiders are really evocative, conceptually, and it's a shame we've gone two editions without getting a planetouched option for them.
I did consider putting them alongside the divspawn in my post, but they are the only creatures that I know of in pf2e that comes with a content warning, so it might not be one Paizo want to put out for general use.
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I think it would be neat to have a Coutal lineage perhaps
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I think it would be neat to have a Coutal lineage perhaps
I've wanted this since PF2 launched!
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I did consider putting them alongside the divspawn in my post, but they are the only creatures that I know of in pf2e that comes with a content warning, so it might not be one Paizo want to put out for general use.
Nah, the content warning sidebar in Monster Core is pretty extensive, including basically all the demons, a number of the devils, and a fair spread of other creature types. While "embodiment of human(oid) fears" is a fairly edgy pick for an unpleasant ancestor, so is "embodiment of horrible ways to die" and yet Grimspawn are in Player Core! Besides, on a PC versatile heritage, the whole body horror aspect gets fairly toned down.
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I did consider putting them alongside the divspawn in my post, but they are the only creatures that I know of in pf2e that comes with a content warning, so it might not be one Paizo want to put out for general use.Nah, the content warning sidebar in Monster Core is pretty extensive, including basically all the demons, a number of the devils, and a fair spread of other creature types. While "embodiment of human(oid) fears" is a fairly edgy pick for an unpleasant ancestor, so is "embodiment of horrible ways to die" and yet Grimspawn are in Player Core! Besides, on a PC versatile heritage, the whole body horror aspect gets fairly toned down.
Oh I didn't realise monster core had one. That's my bad. I think a sakhil lineage is perfectly feasiable, then.
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Unless the geniekin ancestries get grouped into nephilim, I wouldn't expect the scions of a more inner plane to fall under that umbrella. It feels like nephilim are a "demons and angels" outer sphere type heritage where demi-fae "changelings" of a sort feel like they should belong to a distinct category unless every extraplanar bloodline is considered nephilim.
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Aphorite and Ganzi should be added.
I'd like to get a Titan heritage as well, growing them to Large, or one size larger, with feats that grnat them resistance to divine magic, since Titans revolted against the Gods.
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Here's a list of outsiders which we don't have nephilim heritages for:
Couatl: I know Luis Loza made a hb lineage for them a while ago what's neat, though not a massive indicator of likelihood of appearing officially one way or the other.
Garuda: Has a pre-existing heritage that just needs a reprint in Plumekith.
Guardian beasts: Possible, but seems somewhat unlikely
Stone spiders: Overwhelmingly unlikely imo
Aeons: Technically doesn't have a specific type of pre-existing Nephilim, but Aphorites effectively fill that role and are a type of Nephilim.
Proteans: Ganzis have been confirmed to be returning in WoI
Psychopomps: In a weird position. Duskwalkers have almost always been treated as "The TN plane-touched", but weirdly enough weren't merged in with Nephilim, which combined with Duskwalker's much more specific flavour does somewhat imply that you could have a psychopomp Nephilim as something which exists separate from Duskwalkers.
Inevitables: Nuked with the remaster.
Demodand: I'm just mentioning these for completion's sake. Haven't been mentioned once in PF2 and have almost certainly been nuked with the remaster.
Div: Haven't reappeared post-remaster yet, but almost certainly still around. There's a slight chance they've been made a spirit, but I seriously doubt it. Their cambions were known as "Spitespawn" in PF1
Imp: Technically their own family now. That said, I doubt they'll be getting their own cambion type - even if it'd be pretty funny.
Nindoru: Too new of an addition to PF lore for us to be realistically expecting to get a playable cambion option for them any time soon
Qlippoth: Has a pre-existing heritage that just needs a reprint in Riftmarked.
Sahkil: Similar to Couatl, Luis Loza made a lineage for these
Velstrac: Has a pre-existing heritage that just needs a reprint in Shackleborn.
Let me know if I missed any!
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I think a coatl option won't be a Nephilim option, for the same reason Hungerseed are their own thing now - Coatl are Holy Beasts, not actually any kind of Outer Plane entity, so they don't fit in Nephilim's Outer Planetouched bag. I still really hope we see them though (c'mon, Lost Omens: Arcadia!)
On another note, it would be interesting if spitespawn (if Div are in fact still around), actually ended up being their own thing, patterned off the various elemental Planetouched (if remaster Div retain being corrupted elementals), rather than being a nephilim lineage. Admittedly I am suggesting this at least partly because nephilim is already so packed with lineage feats.
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I doubt Imp will be a lineage.. but if they did do it, it would be extremely funny and quite wonderful if it makes you small sized(or maybe one size smaller) regardless of ancestry. You are just a small fiendish version of your ancestry.
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I doubt Imp will be a lineage.. but if they did do it, it would be extremely funny and quite wonderful if it makes you small sized(or maybe one size smaller) regardless of ancestry. You are just a small fiendish version of your ancestry.
I love the idea of a party of adventurers hearing that their new member is a Minotaur with fiend blood, and they’re imagining a massive brute only to get a member that’s shorter than the dwarf.
Would Gigantism and Dwarfism be "okay" as backgrounds, like the size change would replace the stat modifiers?
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A new Couatl-related Versatile Heritage and Wyrwoods are my last big wants, and I'm lucky that both seem likely for a Lost Omens: Arcadia Character Guide.
It's crazy there's no Giant-blooded option yet, though.
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A new Couatl-related Versatile Heritage and Wyrwoods are my last big wants, and I'm lucky that both seem likely for a Lost Omens: Arcadia Character Guide.
It's crazy there's no Giant-blooded option yet, though.
A giant-blooded versatile heritage has felt like an "any day now" thing for years.
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A giant-blooded versatile heritage has felt like an "any day now" thing for years.A new Couatl-related Versatile Heritage and Wyrwoods are my last big wants, and I'm lucky that both seem likely for a Lost Omens: Arcadia Character Guide.
It's crazy there's no Giant-blooded option yet, though.
Dragonblood: "First time?"
Battleblooded is based on... Kjosas... which I have never heard of, and no, the Archives don't have any info on these.
Is this how they call Valkyries now or something?
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Battleblooded is based on... Kjosas... which I have never heard of, and no, the Archives don't have any info on these.
Is this how they call Valkyries now or something?
It comes from the old Norse word for To choose.
Pretty apt for the Norse spirits who choose the dead who will rise to a true warrior's afterlife.
That's a deep cut O_o I just read about it.
So... how are called Faultspawn Asurablooded Nephilims then? Those are now asuras themselves?
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Probably for similar reasons that Half-Oni are now called Hungerseeds. Branding.That's a deep cut O_o I just read about it.
So... how are called Faultspawn Asurablooded Nephilims then? Those are now asuras themselves?
*nods*
In the Remaster Oni (not sure about Asura) aren’t fiends anymore but spirits tied to reincarnation and the cycle of souls.
Probably for similar reasons that Half-Oni are now called Hungerseeds. Branding.That's a deep cut O_o I just read about it.
So... how are called Faultspawn Asurablooded Nephilims then? Those are now asuras themselves?
"Hungerseed" and "Faultspawn" were used for variant tieflings.
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Pretty sure faultspawn are still called faultspawn.
They are Cambions (new name for Tiefling Nephilim) who are still sometimes called Faultspawn, and they confirmed in their lore section that Asuras are still Fiends who are physical manifestations of divine accidents.
Kjosas are the Nephilim in-setting name equivalent of Empyreans and Cambions (for the previous naming of Aasimars and Tieflings) for Nephilim born related to Valkyries and Einherjar. Mechanically, they're called "Battleblooded" Nephilim.
The mechanical lineage names for Aphorites and Ganzi are "Aeonbound" and "Proteankin", but are still referred to in the setting as Aphorites/Ganzi.
They are Cambions (new name for Tiefling Nephilim) who are still sometimes called Faultspawn, and they confirmed in their lore section that Asuras are still Fiends who are physical manifestations of divine accidents.
Thank you, that's what I was looking for.
BTW, Asuras are... Paizo's own creations, so there wasn't much to worry about with the remaster.Kjosas are the Nephilim in-setting name equivalent of Empyreans and Cambions (for the previous naming of Aasimars and Tieflings) for Nephilim born related to Valkyries and Einherjar. Mechanically, they're called "Battleblooded" Nephilim.
I'm legit surprised that they weren't called "Einherjar", since that's... exactly was a Valkyrie-bron being would be called.
The mechanical lineage names for Aphorites and Ganzi are "Aeonbound" and "Proteankin", but are still referred to in the setting as Aphorites/Ganzi.
Like asuras, "Aphorite" and "Ganzi" are terms created by Paizo themselves.
Them distancing themselves from these feels... odd... unless they found D&D's equivalents.