Every Genie can cast Wish, so why does reality still exist?
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Every Genie can cast Wish, so why does reality still exist?
Not every one, only Genie Shuyookhs [Rare] that are "older, wiser, and more powerful genies". And for them, it's 3/year and it's a ritual and not an innate ability, has a 20% failure rate and can only be used for the benefit of a mortal. Add to that that they often try to subvert the wish, it's not too strange the world keeps turning.
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Why would they willingly destroy the reality they live in?
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Wish isn't *that* powerful. Like you can't wish "everybody with a name that is some variant of 'Steve' ceases to exist" and ensure that happens. The ritual says right there that if a Wish gets big enough literal deities will step in and stop the wish from happening (this is most likely why Tar-Baphon can't get divinity by wishing for it.) There are norms of the divine detente that prevent deities from directly intervening in the universe but "putting the kibosh on wishes" doesn't seem to break that truce.
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Obviously the early wishes were to stop universe-destroying wishes and any wishes that could lead to them being successful.
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Every Genie can cast Wish, so why does reality still exist?Not every one, only Genie Shuyookhs [Rare] that are "older, wiser, and more powerful genies". And for them, it's 3/year and it's a ritual and not an innate ability, has a 20% failure rate and can only be used for the benefit of a mortal. Add to that that they often try to subvert the wish, it's not too strange the world keeps turning.
As it happens, specifically the jann (the pan-element genie) can "instantly grant the benefits of a critical success with the wish ritual to a mortal creature," three times per year even at the common-level. This is actually called out in their lore, so it's not just a copying error.
Of course, the point stands that genies all like to grant wishes in certain ways and even if "ending the cosmos" was on the table, janns are unlikely to see that as encouraging growth and exploration... but on the other hand making the kind of person who wishes for cosmic destruction believe that reality is destroyed might qualify as a teaching moment of the "give them everything they want and let them figure out why it wasn't the thing they needed" variety
Maybe those that would have potential to that has been snatched and removed from the equation by Nyarlathotep cuz then it'd be boring.
Assuming genie grant wishes as the ritual, meaning it's not a short duration to cast, there is plenty of time for intervention. Couple that with genie subverting wishes as part of their modus operandi, and the above idea that someone already wished against reality ending wishes (it would actually make a lot of sense) I think there is lot of room to make up reasons for why it doesn't actually work out.
I don't think invoking interference from deities is super satisfying either.
I mean, for a while Pharasma knew every wish anybody was going to attempt to make eons in advance.
I love how there's post every now and then about people asking "why X doesn't destroy the setting" when that X can't destroy the setting even in the most favorable of situations.
I love how there's post every now and then about people asking "why X doesn't destroy the setting" when that X can't destroy the setting even in the most favorable of situations.
Unfortunately, wish is one of those things who power level is hard to gauge well.
To an earlier poster's point, you can't guarantee everyone named "Steve" would be killed by a wish to do so.
But at the same time it has the power to create gods.
Wish is pretty much a "let the GM decide" what happens power.
This question is valid, if you assume that over the eons there have been a number of nihilists who want to watch the whole thing burn down.
Perhaps the result of the first such wish to end the universe led to the creation of Rovagug*.
I'm pretty sure it didn't, but I can't remember if there is canon of where Rovagug came from.
I mean, no one would be surprised if a Genie responded to a wish of "bring upon the end of all things" with "there is now a minor flaw in the cage of Rovagug, so he will escape one day sooner than he was going to anyway."
Genies almost never give you everything you want exactly how you wanted, unless it aligns exactly with what they want.
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I mean, no one would be surprised if a Genie responded to a wish of "bring upon the end of all things" with "there is now a minor flaw in the cage of Rovagug, so he will escape one day sooner than he was going to anyway."
I'm just having fun now imagining a cult of Rovagug that have divined the day of his release rolling up and just starting to prepare their protection ritual to commune with him when all of a sudden he's out a little early.
Maybe the genies like having reality around to keep their stuff in.
Wish spell while strong is not anywhere near what some earlier versions of D&D are power wise. This is not erase reality levels of power.
You can basically replicate a 9th level spell effect of your own spell list or 7th level of some other spell list or an effect that replicates similar levels of results.
So you could wish yourself a ton of money and it would likely work like a teleport that grabs that money from somewhere and dumps it in front of you. It is not an end the world power it is I would like to drop a really big rock on a castle type power.
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Wish spell while strong is not anywhere near what some earlier versions of D&D are power wise. This is not erase reality levels of power.
You can basically replicate a 9th level spell effect of your own spell list or 7th level of some other spell list or an effect that replicates similar levels of results.
So you could wish yourself a ton of money and it would likely work like a teleport that grabs that money from somewhere and dumps it in front of you. It is not an end the world power it is I would like to drop a really big rock on a castle type power.
The original 2e version of Wish was limited like that, yeah, but during the remaster the developers renamed that spell Manifestation and created a ritual version of Wish that can literally do "anything" the caster desires. Ascending to godhood is explicitly listed as a possibility, for example. A Wish could therefore do quite a lot of damage to the universe.
Regarding the original question, the ritual takes 1 day to complete and the description does note that "The GM might decide a wish draws the attention of deities or other powerful creatures, leading to interference with the ritual or attempts to undo the wish." So, I would explain the continued existence of the universe by saying that that deities often interfere with wishes that go against their areas of interest and that the annihilation of the universe goes against just about every deity short of Rovagug. As such, even if someone could coerce a genie into casting that wish, they'd end up with every other god on their doorstep within minutes of starting the ritual.
(For less-destructive wishes that don't warrant godly intervention, the spell is theoretically balanced by the fact that the caster only gets exactly what they wish for if they critically succeed on the rolls to perform the ritual. If they merely succeed, their wish has "unintended consequences" that complicate but don't entirely ruin the desired effect. The descriptions of the genies' abilities only says that they "succeed" at the attempt to cast the wish, so the wisher is always going to get those unintended consequences.)
What is the most amount of existence that a single wish spell could erase?
Like if someone used the wish spell to erase from existence everything this spell is capable of erasing.
What is the most amount of existence that a single wish spell could erase?
Like if someone used the wish spell to erase from existence everything this spell is capable of erasing.
As the spell says, it is up to the GM. Both to determine what the spell is theoretically capable of and how hard the gods will come after you to stop it.
Like "I wish Golarion didn't exist" is too far, since it's important Rovagug not get out", and "I wish Cheliax didn't exist" is likely to annoy Asmodeus specifically, but "I wish my neighbor didn't exist" is probably fine.
So somewhere between "a block" and "a country."
But what if I wished to destroy the godless nation of Rahadoum. Does any deity care enough about them to prevent their destruction.
Well, most good aligned deities would generally object to genocide regardless of religion. The only nations which they might hesitate to step in for are the truly evil ones, which usually the evil deities have vested interests in. Plus even a nation ruled by evil tyrants doesn't necessarily mean the random peasants are evil too.
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The GM is god. The genie is not more powerful than the GM. So the GM creates reality at their whim. The genie is not powerful enough to undo what the GM decides. Wish is what the GM allows it to be, not what the genie wants it to be. That is why reality still exists because the GM is far more powerful than a genie or any being in the imaginary reality of the game world. Reality only exists because a GM makes it exist by running an adventure.
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But what if I wished to destroy the godless nation of Rahadoum. Does any deity care enough about them to prevent their destruction.Well, most good aligned deities would generally object to genocide regardless of religion. The only nations which they might hesitate to step in for are the truly evil ones, which usually the evil deities have vested interests in. Plus even a nation ruled by evil tyrants doesn't necessarily mean the random peasants are evil too.
There are Gods that are probably fond of Rahadoum even if it's not mutual simply because of the Rahadoumi commitment to learning and social or scientific advancement. Since Pathfinder deities don't really depend on worshippers for power, Rahadoum is not actually a threat to any deity. So there's no more reason to object to the people in the desert who won't worship you.
I imagine from a divine perspective the Rahadoumi atheists are viewed much like the Rivethun, or various animistic or ancestor-worshiping cultures- we care more about what they're doing than whatever idiosyncrasies of their culture.
My champion used wish from a powerful magical item to release everyone, alive or dead, from Kharnas' enslavement.
All the hell he's dragged himself through on his way to redemption seemingly lead up to that defining moment. All the puzzle pieces suddenly fit together, and he realized that his patron deity, Qi Zhong the Master of Medicine, had set him on his path long ago in order to alleviate the suffering of multitudes. It was the highlight of his whole adventuring career.
My champion used wish from a powerful magical item to release everyone, alive or dead, from Kharnas' enslavement.
All the hell he's dragged himself through on his way to redemption seemingly lead up to that defining moment. All the puzzle pieces suddenly fit together, and he realized that his patron deity, Qi Zhong the Master of Medicine, had set him on his path long ago in order to alleviate the suffering of multitudes. It was the highlight of his whole adventuring career.
See but that's a good RP wish that doesn't destroy the game. As a GM, that's the kind of wish I want to have made.
I mean if you make it to a genie chances are something will still go wrong, because that's their thing. But I'd give you an opportunity to make the wish, some other way because as a GM I want it to happen.
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My champion used wish from a powerful magical item to release everyone, alive or dead, from Kharnas' enslavement.
All the hell he's dragged himself through on his way to redemption seemingly lead up to that defining moment. All the puzzle pieces suddenly fit together, and he realized that his patron deity, Qi Zhong the Master of Medicine, had set him on his path long ago in order to alleviate the suffering of multitudes. It was the highlight of his whole adventuring career.
See but that's a good RP wish that doesn't destroy the game. As a GM, that's the kind of wish I want to have made.
I mean if you make it to a genie chances are something will still go wrong, because that's their thing. But I'd give you an opportunity to make the wish, some other way because as a GM I want it to happen.
Oh, I wouldn't say "destroy" exactly. But it sure threw our GM through a loop! He clearly wasn't expecting it to be used in that manner just as the party was about to TPK against Kharnas' minions.
He probably expected something like "Whisk the party out of harm's way" and not "Let our final act have real meaning."
Our GM totally had to end the session while he figured out how to rework who knows how many future encounters against Kharnas' remaining forces. (I suspect they were either replaced with neutral servitors, such as constructs, or evil beings who made the choice to be loyal to Kharnas.)
Seems legit. From a casual wiki read, it doesn't sound like Kharnas has a patron deity who would interfere. If the GM had a narrative they didn't want detailed like that, he shouldn't have given his players wish. Seems like a good opportunity to accelerate the player's confrontation with the big bad, and then focus on all the less than savory creatures the wish unleashed upon the world. One imagines not everyone enslaved was good. Even those that started that way might become unhinged after an extended period of brutal enslavement.
Well, even if they were evil, it doesn't mean they want to continue to work in a way that would align with their enslaver.
Well, even if they were evil, it doesn't mean they want to continue to work in a way that would align with their enslaver.
Right, I'm not suggesting they would. The army would be disaolved. I'm saying they would then go off to do their own evil thing. These would be smaller threats, but a bunch of them scattered across the landscape that now need to be tracked down and dealt with individually. You could milk it for a quite a few side quests.
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Kharnas is long dead and no direct threat to anyone, save for all the horrors he left behind. Sadly, most of his slaves were immortal, and his death did nothing to free them from his latent powers, so their suffering continued unabated as they were forced to defend his long lost assets, kill innocents in his name, and carry out his final orders.
Yeah, seems fine then. But you have some good fodder still if any of those immortal slaves are evil. And the good ones might now offer new quests for the party, as well, since your champion proved you were trustworthy.
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Why are people still alive in a world where nuclear weapons exist? Because they are.
I've read enough XKCD What If? scenarios to know that you need to be very smart to be that stupid.
Most people just wish for something practical and end up dying after they have a lifetime supply of gold dumped over their head. Even more ambitious wishes usually only destroys the tristate area.
And most wizards smart enough to do wish for something truly off the wall- and not wise enough to reconsider- probably kill themselves in some magical accident long, long before they can meet a genie.
So we are talking about an extremely narrow band of possible scenarios that could lead to this destruction. And there are a variety of other ways to have those happen without having a genie present. If you are going to summon outsiders to come and destroy everything around you, it is simpler to just go with demons.
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I've read enough XKCD What If? scenarios to know that you need to be very smart to be that stupid.
Most people just wish for something practical and end up dying after they have a lifetime supply of gold dumped over their head. Even more ambitious wishes usually only destroys the tristate area.
And most wizards smart enough to do wish for something truly off the wall- and not wise enough to reconsider- probably kill themselves in some magical accident long, long before they can meet a genie.
So we are talking about an extremely narrow band of possible scenarios that could lead to this destruction. And there are a variety of other ways to have those happen without having a genie present. If you are going to summon outsiders to come and destroy everything around you, it is simpler to just go with demons.
Most people don’t want to destroy the world because it’s where they keep all of their stuff?
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No Wish so widely destructive that it gets rid of the world will be possible, because Shyka the Many is already there (chronologically speaking), and the world is still there (physically speaking). Presumably, if one were going to try, Shyka would have already come poking around to see where the future of the world will have gone, and stopped things from getting there. Ontological bias has divine backing as well as narrative backing.
I forget about Shyka the Many, but that deity really can be the reason for a lot of things. Literally there is a deity who wants the "best" version of reality and gets invested in the "little details".