| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wow. My timing on that last one was just really bad, wasn't it?
At the same time, yes. The Commander is very Warlord. That's cool. More party op more better.
Just for you, because you're cool and I like you, I'll drop one little commander hint ahead of the playtest that will have you theorizing until release day:
If you're a casual fan of TTRPGs, the commander sounds a lot like a warlord (or a marshal, or kind of even some bards, etc.)
The sentence I wanted to use that we decided was a little too technical for a broad audience announcement (and probably legitimately not spicy enough), is that one could fairly describe the commander as a "prepared martial" kind of similar to the way one might talk about a "prepared caster"...
Senpai noticed me!
Uh, er... ahem.
I see. Thank you.
So yeah. The commander is going to have some sort of prepped daily loadout of powers. Interesting. The more interesting question is going to be whether these are also dealing with daily slots. Because i could see it going either way.
So on the one possibility, this is a warlord-type who preps a playbook each day of the things that they're able to do, and can then do those things throughout the day.
The other possibility is that we have the "martial caster" idea, where you're filling and expending daily slots like a caster, but it's entirely nonmagical (and involves a lot of passing power effects to your allies). So... sort of like the kineticist in reverse.
Given the description... I think I might be inclined to believe the latter. I'm not sure about this, but the idea of handing out extra actions, reactions, and so forth seemed a bit too strong for something you could just do all day long. Taking care of the rangerblender's mobiity issues and also letting your big beefy barbarian get another large hit or two and also... you get the idea. It seemed like it might be a bit much. If they were effectively tactics-as-slot-spells, that would be a lot more in line with expected power levels.
It also occurs to me... nothing said that the Commander was going to be a martial-exclusive buff class. Especially if they actually are using slot tactics, there's a lot of space for buffs and assists on the more caster-inclined characters as well.
Oh, and if they're a prepared martial, one way or the other, they almost have to be int-primary.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
That description very much reminds me of some of the things that have come out of the Book of 9 swords and Path of War from the 3.5 and pf1e days.
Pathfinder 2e always felt like those types of mechanics or something simillar could fit in nicely. We already have stances, and unique discrete attacks. And ever since the Inventor and Gunslinger I feel like pf2e has been experimenting with flashier names for said actions, with the peak of it(so far) being the Kinetecist(and well I suppose the War of Immortal playtest also had some great names)
So...We are very interested to see what these playtest look like.
That description very much reminds me of some of the things that have come out of the Book of 9 swords and Path of War from the 3.5 and pf1e days.
Pathfinder 2e always felt like those types of mechanics or something simillar could fit in nicely. We already have stances, and unique discrete attacks. And ever since the Inventor and Gunslinger I feel like pf2e has been experimenting with flashier names for said actions, with the peak of it(so far) being the Kinetecist(and well I suppose the War of Immortal playtest also had some great names)
So...We are very interested to see what these playtest look like.
I also started thinking about the Bo9S/PoW stuff. I always loved those mechanics, so it would be cool to have something similar in PF2.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you listen closely, you can hear the champions renouncing their respective deities en masse now that following one is no longer required to apply for a heavy armor license.
I'm just happy that there is going to be a second defensive class and it is not divine.
The sentence I wanted to use that we decided was a little too technical for a broad audience announcement (and probably legitimately not spicy enough), is that one could fairly describe the commander as a "prepared martial" kind of similar to the way one might talk about a "prepared caster"...
Having a plan is going to be a really good roleplaying hook.
I am very much looking forward to your take on this concept.
|
I'm curious to see what shape the taunting mechanic for the Guardian is going to take. I don't think it'll be a straight-up forcing of enemies to attack the Guardian. That doesn't feel like Paizo's style. There's also issues of player agency to consider there, because any PC class is fair game to build NPCs from.
My guess is that the taunt will either make you look like a juicier target, granting enemies a small damage buff or to-hit buff against you which you can then punish, or perhaps it'll be akin to the Champion's reaction and make attacking anyone who isn't the Guardian a worse idea.
Hopefully it's not the former. Barbarian taunts like that just make you die quicker. Penalties to attacks against targets other than you would be my guess. It serves the same mechanical goal but you're not having to give up your own defense to get it.
In a sense having yet another Int-based martial is kinda boring for sure because I don't know how many of those we have already (inventor, investigator, mastermind rogue, magus to some extent, and probably eldritch trickster rogue, if the spellcaster is Int-based, and alchemist going from PC2).
I feel we kinda need a Wis-based martial, but mostly because Intelligence and Charisma already have received martials that use those, and I don't really see guardian being Wis-based honestly, likely Con-based or the traditional Str or Dex that most martials have. I get the idea of them not getting to overshadow SF's envoy by making it Cha-based, and thus likely they not wanting to make it subclass-specific like rogues, so in the case it actually isn't Wis-based I hope it changes in the final product like the kineticist did.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wisdom based might actually make more sense for a commander since this knowledge is more about how people behave and react. It would also synergize well into giving them a better perception to be that person who is always watching their team, and how they interact to know how to best direct them in combat.
I was thinking about Commander last night. I was thinking about the fact that having a tactics/buff class be specifically prepared stuff was a bit weird. Like, Wizard is a prepared caster, and that makes sense, because a lot of the spells that the wizard is going to bring to the table are of varying levels of effectiveness against varying enemies. The more you know about your upcomign enemies, the better you can pick your spells, right?
But for a leadership/buff class, the important information for picking your powers is who your allies are. So for "prepared martial" to be a concept that really makes sense in the same way, you'd have to have a situation where you might wake up on any given morning with an entirely different *party* to work with.
Oh.
So yeah. That whole "prepared martial" thing is going to be a really big deal for PFS... and that's interesting because it means that the fundamental requirement of "it as to function in PFS" doesnt' require any of a number of other crutches that we might otherwise have come to expect and assume.
...and I think that means that lazylord is suddenly a very real possibility, because if you have the ability to adjust to your party as a daily thing, then you don't need to have anything like as much of your personal effectiveness in the form of the ability to directly inflict damage for yourself.
...which in turn suggests that we might see enough budget freed up that it might not be a slot-martial thing after all - or at least not have to be. (Personally, I'd prefer noslot, but that's me) Interesting stuff, regardless.
I think there's a real need to move some of caster's schtick, like buffing, debuffing and healing, to martial classes. And similarly the other way around (for skills and tanking). So I'm quite happy about the Commander. And I hope we will have in the future casters able to suck hits somehow or be excellent skill monkeys.
On the other hand, I hardly see how the Guardian will position itself next to the Champion as they seem to share the very same specialization in the very same way. I hope we won't end up with one replacing the other if they end up too close from each other.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think everyone is missing the real potential of the class. Four commanders, all of whom fight entirely in someone else's turn!
On the other hand, I hardly see how the Guardian will position itself next to the Champion as they seem to share the very same specialization in the very same way. I hope we won't end up with one replacing the other if they end up too close from each other.
4e had the Warden, Fighter, Paladin, Battlemind, and Swordmage, all of whom filled that same role, more or less, and all of whom did it in distinctly different ways. I don't think it's going to be a problem.
4e had the Warden, Fighter, Paladin, Battlemind, and Swordmage, all of whom filled that same role, more or less, and all of whom did it in distinctly different ways. I don't think it's going to be a problem.
I disagree. For example in 4e the Fighter was a damage dealer, and as such less of a tank than the Paladin.
But in PF2 case, there's no real place to position the Guardian. The Champion is very close to the bare minimum in terms of defense: Legendary armor (hard to be under that as that would mean have as much AC than any other martial), Master weapon (hard to be under that without not being a martial), a strong reaction that is easy to grab (you can remove the reaction but then Guardian + Champion Dedication would become too good), and nothing else. I don't see much space to fit the Guardian.So I'm puzzled. I don't say it's impossible, but as of now I have hard time seeing what they'll do with the Guardian that doesn't end up as being just another Champion (or a superior Champion).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For a martial defender you could have reactions to punish enemies that move away from you, reactions to punish enemies that attack your allies, a stance to apply a penalty to enemies who attack your allies for enemies whilst being within your reach, a stance to make the terrain in your reach difficult terrain for your enemies etc.
I have no issue coming up with tons of ideas that will turn the Guardian into a better Champion. The issue is to keep it in line with the Champion.
What can you remove from the Champion to feed the Guardian abilities? The Champion has the bare minimum in terms of weapon proficiency, skills, saves and hp (I hardly see a tank with 8 hp :D ). The Guardian will obviously lose all the abilities like Divine Ally and Lay on Hands but these just cost a feat so they won't really feed strong abilities, and Exalt is a level 11 ability so quite late to differentiate both classes. The Guardian will also lose the Champion's Reaction but it has to be replaced by something that is not compatible with Champion's Reaction as otherwise Guardian + Champion Dedication would be the superior Champion. So you have to either replace it with a reaction with the exact same trigger or you have to somehow prevent the Guardian to use Champion's Reaction (that would be hard). Champion's feats will obviously be replaced by Guardian's feats but there's not much power in Champion's feats (as a matter of fact, my Paladin's second Champion feat is scheduled for level 14, it gives a good idea of how good Champion's feats are). So the only thing I see that you can remove from the Champion and that can feed quite some abilities is Legendary armor. If you leave the Guardian with Legendary armor then you just have a Champion with the name scratched (or worse, a better Champion).
That's why I have doubt about the Guardian. I don't say it's impossible, I don't say they won't make it, just that I'm skeptical at first, unlike the Commander that fills a niche that really needs being filled and as such should be very easy to design.
So I'm puzzled. I don't say it's impossible, but as of now I have hard time seeing what they'll do with the Guardian that doesn't end up as being just another Champion (or a superior Champion).
Well... let's come up with some then, shall we? Well talk about Holy Champions, and specifically abtou their defendery aspects. The Unholy ones are... different.
The Champion has legendary skill at heavy armor. That will likely be the same.
The Champion has a lot of divine-flavored set dressing. That's cool and all, and the Guardian *won't* have that, but it's nto core mechanics. A Guardian that's just "Champion with the Divine influence scrubbed off" would be a seriously sad champion.
The Champion has some potions that give extra shield love, and a few even-more-optional options that let you take damage on behalf of your buddies. the first is cool but not fundamental, and the second is pretty lean.
The core of what the Champion brings is the Champion's reaction - a relatively short-ranged (within 3) power that reacts to an enemy damaging your friend, generally reduces damage done, and then does some other random useful thing. They've got that reaction, and then they've got a bunch of ways to buff up that reaction and/or use it more often. So we need to be Not That.
...and we know that we have a taunt.
Now we don't know *much* about the taunt, but the funny thing about a taunt is that it's fundamentally proactive, rather than reactive. It's something that you do before the attack is made, to convince the enemy that they should be attacking you instead. Like, the simplest form of a taunt is an attack vs Will that forces the enemy to not make any attacks that don't include you.
ah... and we know that the Guardian is Martial. That keeps us from getting *too* crazy.
So I'm going to say that the taunt is a one-action activity, based on intimidate. It starts by inflicting a relatively simple penalty on attacking people who aren't the guardian, and goes up from there - each class path adds something special to the taunt, and there are feats that add things to the taunt, and somewhere around level 8 they get a feature where taunts don't expire if you're adjacent to the foe, and around level 12 there's a feat that lets you throw out taunts as an area effect, and once it's fully stacked it's basically a massive debuff on trying to do anything useful with your life other than attacking the guardian, as you are utterly consumed with red rage.
...and then of course there are other feats and/or class features that do things like make taunted foes off-guard to the other members of your party because they're focusing all of their effort on *you*.
The Redeemer Champion gets a reaction to an enemy causing damage that says "you feel super-guilty. Would you like to decide to not attack after all, or face significant penalties?" The Guardian gets a reaction to an enemy taking a swing that says "You're taunted now. Would you like to decide that that attack was against me instead, or face significant penalties?" The Guardian is basically a whirling vortex of "all the hate is coming my way. They might not be a divine class themselves, but they likely will want the aid of a cleric.
That's one idea, at least.