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Seven Dooms of Sandpoint (GM Reference)
This is a spoiler-filled resource thread for the Seven Dooms of Sandpoint AP by James Jacobs.
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So far I've read through Chapter 1 and am concerned about a narrative inflexibility built into it as written. The first chapter presents Abstalar's desire to contact Nualia's spirit to forgive her for her misdeeds. This goal is integral to the resolution of the chapter because it's only through being forgiven that Nualia reveals the threat of the Seven Dooms. Also most of the interesting drama in this chapter comes from factions in town that would oppose bringing back Nualia's spirit.
The problem is... what if the players/PCs don't agree with Abstalar? I think it's not out of the question for players/PCs to fall on the other side and say her crimes far outweigh any of the town's cruelties toward her.
As a GM, if the players don't agree with the thrust of the narrative, you can still entice them with gold or the ever useful "well, that's how the AP goes" to get them to go along with it, but I would much more like to transform the adventure to work with their viewpoint instead. However, Chapter 1's "forgiving Nualia" elements feel so load bearing... I'm not sure how best to adjust it, especially the Influence encounter at the end where the players have to personally find ways to forgive her.
Any thoughts on what might be a good way to change this?
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On a related note, I think Burnt Offerings is a tricky way to tie into this AP. This AP assumes a very particular resolution for Nualia at the end of Burnt Offerings, and one that (from my experience running or playing or reading campaign journals) is often not the way the book ends at the table. I've seen several redeemed Nualias, captured Nualias, escaped Nualias that return in Book 2... people LOVE not killing her. And the AP is written such that killing her isn't mandatory.
The entire premise of Chapter 1 of this AP is that Nualia is definitely dead and definitely still full of vengeance. By going Burnt Offerings -> Seven Dooms you either massively reduce the allowable possibility space for the resolution of Burnt Offerings, or you have to totally overhaul this Chapter 1.
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Maybe the ritual could be changed to contact Father Tobin? He hasn't been dead a whole lot longer in the grand scheme of things, and his treatment of Nualia caused the town a bunch of problems.
Maybe Tobin's been trying to reach out from beyond the grave to warn Sandpoint as his own way of atoning for his hand in its troubles. Zantus has picked up on these vague hints, and he wants to conduct the ritual to see what Tobin's trying to say. The ritual can be less "forgive Tobin," and more "help Tobin manifest long enough for him to relay the message."
If Nualia is alive, you could even present it as "help Nualia and her father reconcile."
Creative Director
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If you suspect your group isn't going to be interested in helping Abstalar forgive Nualia (and I suggest flat-out asking your players about this, spoilers be damned, because the "forgive/redeem a villain" storyline is pretty popular and powerful, and you might be surprised at your group's interest in this plot point), then the simplest solution is to adjust the opening so that instead of seeking to conjure her spirit and forgive her, Abstalar wants the PCs' help to exorcise her vengeful spirit from haunting Sandpoint. In this case, you can kit-bash the call spirit ritual to be an exorcism ritual, one that needs a part of her body to serve as a point of contact between the casters and the target spirit, and then adjust the scene where the PCs call her to forgive her into an exorcisim. And when they defeat her and send her soul on the way, she can do a parting mockery that's basically "You may have defeated me, but seven more dooms loom in your futures, so you're still gonna all die and when you do I'll be waiting on the other side for revenge!" or something like that.
On the other hand, it's been 17 years since Burnt Offerings, so even if Nualia is redeemed, there's time for her to die of all sorts of other misadventures along the way... perhaps even introduce a backstory element where she died in an "accident" that was actually a murder or the like, and you can tie that into the haunting plot above OR adjust things so that the call spirit ritual is Abstalar trying to contact her to ask her about her death to help figure out who the killer is... and regardless of her answer there she should still warn the PCs about the upcoming dooms.
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Really good ideas both of you, thanks! I do think ultimately just the direct OOC buy-in is the best move, with some adjustments to the set up depending on preferences. The exorcism spin sounds really fun.
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On the other hand, it's been 17 years since Burnt Offerings, so even if Nualia is redeemed, there's time for her to die of all sorts of other misadventures along the way... perhaps even introduce a backstory element where she died in an "accident" that was actually a murder or the like, and you can tie that into the haunting plot above OR adjust things so that the call spirit ritual is Abstalar trying to contact her to ask her about her death to help figure out who the killer is... and regardless of her answer there she should still warn the PCs about the upcoming dooms.
I was more thinking that if she was brought to justice, she would have been executed for her crimes.
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On the other hand, it's been 17 years since Burnt Offerings, so even if Nualia is redeemed, there's time for her to die of all sorts of other misadventures along the way... perhaps even introduce a backstory element where she died in an "accident" that was actually a murder or the like, and you can tie that into the haunting plot above OR adjust things so that the call spirit ritual is Abstalar trying to contact her to ask her about her death to help figure out who the killer is... and regardless of her answer there she should still warn the PCs about the upcoming dooms.I was more thinking that if she was brought to justice, she would have been executed for her crimes.
In which case things can play out entirely the same as written, with Abstalar wanting to contact her to apologize for executing her when it was bad apples in town that caused her to turn bad herself.
One of the key elements here in the adventure I wanted to explore, beyond even bringing back Nualia, is that everyone's home town has bad actors and uncomfortable histories and secrets, and that standing up to face those things and make good on them is a positive growth thing for a society. I wanted the players to see right out of the gate that they're working with the side of folks in town who are trying to make Sandpoint a better place by also making sure that past mistakes don't go ignored.
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I’m considering an idea which might help connect Rusthenge and Seven Dooms, and explain why PCs should take part in the Ritual. Here it goes.
PCs are the children of victims of Jervis Stoot. They were so young (age of 5 or so) then, and had no remaining relatives in Sandpoint who would take care of them. People considered Turandarock Academy, but it was full of children then. So they decided that Ezakien Tobyn should take care of them temporarily in Sandpoint Cathedral. PCs met Nualia there, though Father Tobyn always interfered between them and Nualia. That fateful day, Nualia set fire to the cathedral, but forced PCs to escape. Even with her mind influenced by Lamashtu, Nualia couldn’t kill PCs, orphans like her.
After the fire, the question of who should take care of PCs arose again. It was then that a young but trustworthy-looking lady from Chakikoth Isle, who was in Sandpoint on some sort of a pilgrimage, made an offer to take PCs under her wing. “They should leave this place at least for a while. They had experienced too much of tragedy in this town. I promise by the god to return them when they grow up. Our village is very small, but peaceful place.” Her words moved the people of Sandpoint, and PCs left Sandpoint with the woman. Her name was Ordwi.
For PCs, Nualia was a rescuer who gave her life to help them. At least so they thought. It is because of this thought that PCs take part in the Ritual.
I'm starting some long term prep for this one, and i was thinking. I would like to have the maps of the level of the pit professionally printed.
I was wondering if anyone knew of versions of the maps available that have had the secret doors and areas removed. The map pack that comes as a PDF has the ability to remove labels, but it doesn't appear to have a 'player friendly' version as some have had in the past.
For PCs, Nualia was a rescuer who gave her life to help them. At least so they thought. It is because of this thought that PCs take part in the Ritual.
I don't plan to run Rusthange, I intend to use the minigame in the players guide, but I love this idea and fully intend to use it if any of my players tag 'orphan' in their background
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While making a list of the Clockwork Songbird parts it looks like I missed a Wing.
Before the clockwork songbird can be used, its six components (the body, the left and right wings a one piece, the legs and tail, the head, and the winding key)
In room I there is mention of one wing, "hoard is a bronze clockwork songbird wing". Where is the other?
- Clockwork body found
- 1 wing at The Devil’s Den (I)?
- 2nd wing ??
- Head in possession of Charn Scarnetti
- Tail from Chertus H7
- Legs from Chertus H7
- Winding mechanism worn as a necklace by Minargul in D10
Maybe both wings are in I? Did I (and the PDF search) miss something?
DMferry
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I might be missing it, but what's the suggested solution to shopping once the party hits 5th level or is looking for things Sandpoint can't provide? Is lack of available markets an intentional thing for the adventure, or should we be doing a shopping trip down to Magnimar each chapter at a certain point?
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Creative Director
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I might be missing it, but what's the suggested solution to shopping once the party hits 5th level or is looking for things Sandpoint can't provide? Is lack of available markets an intentional thing for the adventure, or should we be doing a shopping trip down to Magnimar each chapter at a certain point?
Shopping trips to Magnimar are a great solution to this situation. While the PCs might feel like they're on a countdown to stop the dooms, they're not really, so there's pretty much always time to head to Magnimar to shop.
There wasn't room to do a full super-detailed dive on Sandpoint in this adventure, unfortunately, but Magnimar's only a day away, so even if the PCs don't go there to shop, you should let them place orders for stuff from Magnimar through local merchants, or perhaps via the Mercantie League or Wheen's Wagons, solutions that could let the PCs order something on the morning of a day and then have it delivered the evening of the next day.
There's also the Sandpoint Market, which once a week on Fireday has a market with merchants from Magnimar, Galduria, and beyond; on those days, I'd suggest letting the PCs shop for items up to their level.
There's also some advice in the 96 page Sandpoint book on how to adjust the town's market and items for sale. If your PCs are going to be spending extra time in town, this book (even though it's for 1st edition) is super useful in expanding things in town and coming up with small side-quests and favors you can do for folks.
You can also tie it to reputation. If the PCs become Admired with a faction, then that faction might open their secret stashes to the PCs for purchases of items up to 7th level, and if they become revered with a faction, items up to 12th level.
My preferred personal solution, though, if I were running this, would be to create bespoke lists of items for sale in Sandpoint, and every week I'd adjust those items, bringing in a few new things that would be potential purchases for the PCs and increasing the level of the items available to match their levels. This can set up fun emergent play quests, like if the PCs see a new weapon they wanna buy show up at Risa's Place but can't afford it, then they can either go back into the dungeon to grind for more treasure or organize a quest with Risa or something like that.
I was wondering this about the maps as well. Map tags off does not remove the traps for Whistlefang Lair which is absolutely annoying. Any luck finding something that works?I'm starting some long term prep for this one, and i was thinking. I would like to have the maps of the level of the pit professionally printed.
I was wondering if anyone knew of versions of the maps available that have had the secret doors and areas removed. The map pack that comes as a PDF has the ability to remove labels, but it doesn't appear to have a 'player friendly' version as some have had in the past.
Not yet. I will likely end up photo shopping (well gimp) my own versions to have printed.
If and when I do I will be sure to post them here for other people to use, assuming thats kosher with paizo forum policy (I'm not selling it, and it's something paizo doesn't have available for sale, so I would think it would be fine but someone please let me know if not)
There wasn't room to do a full super-detailed dive on Sandpoint in this adventure, unfortunately, but Magnimar's only a day away, so even if the PCs don't go there to shop, you should let them place orders for stuff from Magnimar through local merchants, or perhaps via the Mercantie League or Wheen's Wagons, solutions that could let the PCs order something on the morning of a day and then have it delivered the evening of the next day.
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You can also tie it to reputation. If the PCs become Admired with a faction, then that faction might open their secret stashes to the PCs for purchases of items up to 7th level, and if they become revered with a faction, items up to 12th level.My preferred personal solution, though, if I were running this, would be to create bespoke lists of items for sale in Sandpoint...
I used the mail order option a lot when I ran Extinction Curse. The players FELT they were on a ticking clock despite being told repeatedly they wern't (players! amiright?) so they wern't willing to take a trip to absalom, but the starstone isle isn't that big so I just had them put in orders through local merchants and them siguring in a day or two courier time.
I really like the idea of typing higher level items to reputation and having favored merchants carry bespoke inventories. One of the things im looking forward two is having the party spend the adventure arc in one place so I can really bring the town to life.
Now that my turn to GM is coming up again, I'm expecting to run Seven Dooms. It's been a minute since its release, so I can't recall: does anyone have any advice for running this for players who successfully redeemed Nualia during Rise of the Runelords?
I seem to remember someone suggesting that the Dooms PCs could be trying to redeem Father Tobyn instead. (Or was it Delek Viskanta? Justice Ironbriar?) Having Nualia die between Rise and Dooms doesn't really work for me because she was already redeemed - not quite good by the end of the campaign, but no longer evil.
I could also run it in a separate continuity where Nualia wasn't redeemed, but that feels like a disservice to the work these same players did.
I'll have to look back over my notes to see if there were any other significant departures from the way Dooms expects Rise to've turned out, but that's the one I've been chewing on at present.
Thanks in advance!
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What if instead of Father Zantus asking, it is Nualia asking on behalf of Tsuto? Does it really matter that Nualia be the one to deliver the prophecy? Perhaps she feels guilty for using him as she did, but also has to forgive him for the murder of his father...
Just spitballing...
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Now that my turn to GM is coming up again, I'm expecting to run Seven Dooms. It's been a minute since its release, so I can't recall: does anyone have any advice for running this for players who successfully redeemed Nualia during Rise of the Runelords?
I seem to remember someone suggesting that the Dooms PCs could be trying to redeem Father Tobyn instead. (Or was it Delek Viskanta? Justice Ironbriar?) Having Nualia die between Rise and Dooms doesn't really work for me because she was already redeemed - not quite good by the end of the campaign, but no longer evil.
I could also run it in a separate continuity where Nualia wasn't redeemed, but that feels like a disservice to the work these same players did.
I'll have to look back over my notes to see if there were any other significant departures from the way Dooms expects Rise to've turned out, but that's the one I've been chewing on at present.
Thanks in advance!
James Jacobs' earlier advice in this thread go as follows:
On the other hand, it's been 17 years since Burnt Offerings, so even if Nualia is redeemed, there's time for her to die of all sorts of other misadventures along the way... perhaps even introduce a backstory element where she died in an "accident" that was actually a murder or the like, and you can tie that into the haunting plot above OR adjust things so that the call spirit ritual is Abstalar trying to contact her to ask her about her death to help figure out who the killer is... and regardless of her answer there she should still warn the PCs about the upcoming dooms.
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Forgive me if this was brought up before, but I notice that many of the Backgrounds have Skill Feats that have prerequisites but do not give the prerequisite Skills.
How am I supposed to handle this? Are they still able to use those Feats without training in the skill? That seems a little weird to me...
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Creative Director
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Forgive me if this was brought up before, but I notice that many of the Backgrounds have Skill Feats that have prerequisites but do not give the prerequisite Skills.
How am I supposed to handle this? Are they still able to use those Feats without training in the skill? That seems a little weird to me...
For Rare backgrounds, we sometimes mix things up like this to make them special and unusual, and to steer PC choices in directions that work well with the adventure at hand. When a background grants a skill feat, it's free. You get it without having to worry about any prerequisites; that's part of what makes the background Rare rather than Common.
They can use the feats without skill training because their background gives them the training needed. Of course, in many cases, it makes sense for a PC to later on train up that skill, but it's not a requirement in this case.
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It also occurs to me that my players found the evidence against Titus Scarnetti in Rise, but it's easy enough to say that his wealth and status allowed him to survive that scandal. Maybe my Titus's reputation is just a little more tarnished.
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Now that my turn to GM is coming up again, I'm expecting to run Seven Dooms. It's been a minute since its release, so I can't recall: does anyone have any advice for running this for players who successfully redeemed Nualia during Rise of the Runelords?
I seem to remember someone suggesting that the Dooms PCs could be trying to redeem Father Tobyn instead. (Or was it Delek Viskanta? Justice Ironbriar?) Having Nualia die between Rise and Dooms doesn't really work for me because she was already redeemed - not quite good by the end of the campaign, but no longer evil.
I could also run it in a separate continuity where Nualia wasn't redeemed, but that feels like a disservice to the work these same players did.
I'll have to look back over my notes to see if there were any other significant departures from the way Dooms expects Rise to've turned out, but that's the one I've been chewing on at present.
Thanks in advance!
James Jacobs' earlier advice in this thread go as follows:
On the other hand, it's been 17 years since Burnt Offerings, so even if Nualia is redeemed, there's time for her to die of all sorts of other misadventures along the way... perhaps even introduce a backstory element where she died in an "accident" that was actually a murder or the like, and you can tie that into the haunting plot above OR adjust things so that the call spirit ritual is Abstalar trying to contact her to ask her about her death to help figure out who the killer is... and regardless of her answer there she should still warn the PCs about the upcoming dooms.
heck, maybe she was in a jail cell, and our big-bad flies in and strangles her. the last thing her spirit remembers is the huge red eyes... and that death has haunted Zandalus this whole time...
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Creative Director
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The reputation quest Mapping the Pit says "On a success, they can turn the map of the level over to the Runewatchers for a reward of a number of Reputation Points with the faction equal to the dungeon’s level." Would you have this as 5-10 (intended character level), or 1-6 (numeric level)? Going by character level seems like a LOT of rep points, but that is the usual meaning of "dungeon's level."
It's intended to be 1–6, playing off the dungeon's actual level. If they do all 6, this could earn them 1+2+3+4+5+6 points, for a total of 21 points in all. Linking it to intended character level would give out WAY too many points.
To me, the "usual meaning" of dungeon level is its depth underground, but the definition of a "dungeon level" isn't really something that still exists in the game's lexicon. Sorry about the confusion!
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Creative Director
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The way you earn an NPC's support is detailed on page 171, but the short version is that a PC needs just to adjust that NPC's attitude to Helpful. Once you've done that for an NPC at a location, then you can take the downtime actions indicated in that location.
For Brodert Quink, for example, on page 174 under his location, his paragraph notes that if a PC earns his support by making him helpful (he starts at indifferent, as indicated in that section) he offers his services as a sage and researcher for free, and that PC gets to use his books and resources to gain a bonus to Research checks they make there.
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Aw right! My Seven Dooms game starts on Friday! Amazing!
My party is:
Elven Dandy Animal Barbarian with the Lost Cost Local background
Oread Archeologist Inscribed One Witch with the Runelord Scholar background
Goblin Sniping Duo Drifter Gunslinger with the Lost Coast Local background
Nephilim (Oni) Blessed One Sorcerer Dedication Angel Summoner with the Curious Apprentice background.
The party is on their way back from Osprey Cove to deliver a dangerous item to Father Zantus... boy do they not know what they're getting into!
(Well, the players kind of know... I mean, they know that I'm running Seven Dooms...)
Wish me luck! Here's to many sessions of fun and close calls!
Have any of y'all used the "bonus Scarnetti" NPCs from the Sandpoint sourcebook in your Seven Dooms games? Aunt Enid (Adimar's mother), Titus's wife Delarah, or their other children - Elisse and Lianel? My players are starting out a little wrapped up in Scarnetti Consortium affairs, and I think it would be fun to muddy those waters with some more names and faces.
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Just about to start running the adventure after running my group of new players through Rusthenge. Really love the book and the setting, and the freeform approach to the Pit.
I was wondering though, the book's pretty explicit on the Sandpoint Devil being able to return, but says nothing about Ripnugget. Surely, at the level they should be at when they defeat him, they won't have the resources to disintergrate the armour, leaving the option open for his return? What should I do about this? Is it fine for him to be a returning threat? The sidebar for the First Doom implies he completely survives the encounter with the PCs, but it seemed a little harsh for him to blow up Sandpoint through sheer immortality!
I imagine the rest of the Whistlefangs will head off after his death, but I don't know whether it's fair to have him returning of his own accord, especially since it's (on average) less than a week before he regenerates. Any advice, those who've run it?
Yup; Ripnugget could surely return, but he's a combination of smart and not eternally foolish; he knows if the PCs defeated him once, they can do it again, so he'll probably head for the proverbial hills if and when he rejuvenates.
That said, since you and I and all other GMs know upon reading this adventure that Ripnugget has no future role in the adventure (and we don't intend to use him again in a future product)... I'd say that if the PCs realize what he is and want to destroy his armor, that they can melt it down in a forge or something like that and that would be enough to completely obliterate the armor. He's a low level graveknight, after all, so it's fine if they don't have to resort to high level obliteration means.
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I have a bit of a broad question on this one-
I'm going to be running this adventure as our next campaign(thinking of bringing it into curtain call, for the back half). About 80% of our group have been together for basically ever and we ran through through the early Varisia Aps when they came out.
That means its been long enough that my group has vague memories of things(I'm sure they will immediately remember the hagfish when its brought up, but I don't know that they will remember many details about NPCs).
So the question is; what should I remind them? What bits of setting and history around the town have people gotten the most use out of?
hey all,
we have just started this AP and like it so far, and I am prepping for the next few sessions and have some questions around talking with Nualia.
The AP mentions that Audrani would coach them on what to say, but I have no clue what to put there right now apart from a few basic questions... just looking for inspiration I guess...
I'm guessing that it would start with the usual spiritism question, first they should ask who she is to make sure it's indeed Nualia who answered the call, then they should explain why they called her here, try to assuage her anger, etc.
As for the more specific way she could coach them, personally I would advise them against stating that they (or Sandpoint) forgive her for what she did, or ask for her forgiveness right from the start, as for someone that was once so angry at the town that she tried to burn it all down, it would probably only fan the flames of her wrath. Instead, they should explain that some goblins trying to continue her legacy have desacrated her remains to do so, and that she was called here so that this affair can be laid to rest the right way, instead of simply continue telling themselves that she was an irredeemable monster responsible for everything bad that happenned.
Basically, the 101 about how to treat with spirits that are probably angry and vengefull, and then additional details depending on wether you believe your group already know the gist of what they should ask her or not. The goal of this encounter is to flow naturally, and for the group to already know what they should ask and tell her before she appear, so if you feel like they are likely to not raise up an important subject, you should use Audrani or Abstalar to convey to the party that this is a subject they should raise.
Personally, I think having the conversation with Nualia contain something along the line of "we know it was wrong to consider you sole responsible of everything that happenned then" is important, as it make her segue into the "7 doom" prophecy and the hint that something or someone have been setting up all these troubles behind the scene more natural. It make for a good moment of understanding, the town (represented by the PCs) accept it's share of responsibilities, and while she's still angry, Nualia accept her share of the blame, and reveal something that may help the town. And if it was a total success and Nualia actually forgive the town, she also impart an important nugget of truth, that beyond herself and sandpoint as a whole, there may have been a third party that set things up from behind the scene to provoke the tragedy in the first place.
hey all,
we have just started this AP and like it so far, and I am prepping for the next few sessions and have some questions around talking with Nualia.The AP mentions that Audrani would coach them on what to say, but I have no clue what to put there right now apart from a few basic questions... just looking for inspiration I guess...
Judging from her interactions in Return of the Runelords, she would likely test things out to see the PCs' opinions on Nualia first. Depending on their answer, she would gently but firmly nudge them towards not going so hard on her. She's careful not to draw people to anger, but she isn't going to keep her opinions to herself like she would during her rough period. That said, if PCs remain adamant about going hard on Nualia, she would leave them to their devices. Ultimately, she acts like a wallflower but does love to get into debates with the right topic (eg religion) and is willing to agree to disagree.