Is having 2 Attack lower then my main character too low? I have had many instances of an animal companion missing because it's roll was -1 or -2 lower then the enemy's AC. has anyone else felt Animal Companion Attack is far too low?
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The Companion's attack is lower due it cost only one-action from you and doesn't share your MAP (unless you are mounted on it).
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Is having 2 Attack lower then my main character too low? I have had many instances of an animal companion missing because it's roll was -1 or -2 lower then the enemy's AC. has anyone else felt Animal Companion Attack is far too low?
I mean, it is only 5-10% less accurate (than a master prof martial), suggesting it is "far too low" is a bit hyperbolic... the whole point is to avoid it being a cheap martial since it doesn't share MAP with the main character.
Not to say animal companions are problem free, but accuracy isn't something I would say is an issue.
What would you say the issue is then with Animal Companions?
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Animal companion becomes fairly useless after level 16. Can't breach DR. Doesn't do much damage. Attack roll is ok and AC not bad on a nimble companion. Saves are fine. Hit points fine.
Damage too low and lack of ability to penetrate DR or move in three dimensions if not choosing a bird makes them feel like a sort of tacked on useless bunch of feats.
How would you actually go about fixing this then, if I might ask?
Forced size scaling and durability at higher levels. Also recovering the companion after it dies (1 week of downtime is a long time to be without a significant portion of character feat investment)
Something to mention is animal companions now benefit from quickened which is a decent bonus at higher levels (previously quickened and slowed didn't impact minions).
I disagree that DR is the primary issue, they certainly don't scale damage as fast as I would personally want but DR is far from an every combat issue and advanced manoeuvres/support helps drastically.
Flight is nice, but again pretty situational to the combat. Does feel awful if you can't cast fly on an AC and it does end up being an aerial fight though.
How would you go about fixing that then? Increasing their Hit Points from 6 to 8 potentially and up their Defenses by one Proficiency level?
How would you go about fixing that then? Increasing their Hit Points from 6 to 8 potentially and up their Defenses by one Proficiency level?
No idea, the biggest issue is strength based companions imo.
I would probably trial giving animal companions a witch familiar like "resurrect during preparations" style feature. Or a ye old breath of life style focus spell.
Okay, now I feel a little lost. Is it because of the lower AC and the bigger size of Savage Companions?
How would you actually go about fixing this then, if I might ask?
I'd probably do a few things.
Maybe give a feat or some means to give animal companions the means to bypass various forms of DR.
As their damage becomes less of a factor, I'd let them use their support ability as part of the single free action and make support one action along with a strike.
I understand limiting this at lower levels as ACs stay pretty good up to level 15 or so. They really fall off level 16 to 20. They might still be attractive if able to use their support ability as a single free action or as part of their usual attack sequence.
I think you could make them able to use their support ability with a strike around their first specialization and be fine.
They need a bit more for those last five levels.
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I'd allow them to benefit from Weapon and Armor Runes.
It seems a bit extreme, but it actually solves 2 of the Animal Companion issues:
- It rebalances Str and Dex companions, as Str Companions will use Armor to increase AC while Dex Companions have already excellent AC that can't be much improved through armor.
- It solves the lack of damage and chances to hit of high level Animal Companions, putting their primary attacks on par with martials secondary attacks or casters primary ones (which is very strong but still not imbalanced in my opinion).
- Side bonus: Grabbing a second specialization at level 16 becomes worth it.
And it comes at a steep cost, but Animal Companions are already very expensive in terms of feats so I think it's fine to spend money also to improve them. Most PCs will certainly use lower level runes on their companions as the high level ones are really expensive.
Animal companion becomes fairly useless after level 16. Can't breach DR. Doesn't do much damage. Attack roll is ok and AC not bad on a nimble companion. Saves are fine. Hit points fine.
Damage too low and lack of ability to penetrate DR or move in three dimensions if not choosing a bird makes them feel like a sort of tacked on useless bunch of feats.
How would you actually go about fixing this then, if I might ask?
There's a bit of exaggeration by Deriven Firelion about the DR once that "only" 20% of monsters of level 16 and more get some kind of physical resistance (including resistance to all) but he has a point once that this number isn't irrelevant and the resistance of this level is usually something like 15 or more while a Specialized Savage Companion is giving something like 3d8 + 8 (Str) + 6 (Unarmed Specialization) vs creature with 300 or more HP.
The only ways I know to better this situation is using a Precision Ranger (because it shares its precision damage ability to companions) what would add 1d8 at level 1, 2d8 at level 11 and 3d8 at level 19 to your damage or use Clone Companion spell what doesn't really helps to win the resistance but increases you chances to get a good roll in one of your companions Strikes.
Vs flyers is like Deriven Firelion said. You will need a companion with fly speed what limits you to Air Elementals, Bats, Birds, Cave Pterosaurs, Moths and Vultures or you will have to cast something like Air Walk to them able to hit airborne targets.
It's not like these companions becomes useless at high levels they are still useful to flank with you or your allies and also still get their support abilities but their damage efficiency reduces over progression.
Forced size scaling and durability at higher levels. Also recovering the companion after it dies (1 week of downtime is a long time to be without a significant portion of character feat investment)
I disagree about both. OK the companion doesn't have the best HP nor AC at high levels but it still good. But depending of how you GM handles they may even not become the primary target of most enemies (due their lower dmg output when compared to PCs) and nothing prevents anyone to heal them.
About size its an overheight overrate problem. It's only becomes a problem if you get a medium/large companion and make it savage what will make it huge but if your companion starts small or you choose it to become nimble its easy to restrict it to medium size or even large (large size isn't a big problem once they can still pass trough medium sized corridors only considering them as difficult terrain).
I'm playing with an AC at level 19. It's so rarely useful. I wouldn't say never, but rarely.
When you're fighting stuff with auras, huge ACs, AoE spells and effects, and DR in 15 plus range as well as regeneration and weaknesses, their damage reminds me of bringing a pocket knife to a tank fight.
The PCs are slamming things like a truck. My starlit Span imaginary weapon magus averages 90 to 100 points on a regular and does 220 to 250 plus on a crit.
Even the investigator is slamming stuff with strategic strike with coffee.
The monk with Heaven's Thunder new version is doing nutty damage with flurry and ki form. A level 18 monk no longer needs damage help compared to every other class, so no I've changed my mind on the monk. They really don't need anything at high level. Their AC is better than most martials. Their damage and action economy as well as ability activate tons of weaknesses makes up for the lower damage because that stuff comes up a ton at high level.
So Unicore, you were right, the monk needs nothing. If give it anything else, it might be too good. Their saves are great. Their AC is great. Their action economy amazing. Their ability to do various types of damage and use all three major metals to bypass DR or activate weaknesses is really potent. Their ability to have a d8 weapon with agile and finesse allowing them to focus on Dex over strength and focus on the core four main stats to max out saves as well as their 60 foot plus movement all the time makes them pretty amazing overall.
The AC just becomes this thing that if your player completely forgot to use it, no one would probably notice.
The main high level caster in the group...just ridiculous. Turns fights into trivial exercises in dice rolling because very few enemies can match their versatility. Even their DCs get pretty nutty. The Harrow Sorcerers spell DC at level 19 is 43 before debuffs.
I've changed my mind on the most powerful high level class in the game now too. I think it is the rogue, not the fighter. The rogue is the single best martial in the game and may be the best class in the game. They are just brutal at high level. A simple level 4 invis with Blank Slate makes them practically undetectable by a ton of creatures. Swift Sneak, Blank Slate, Legendary Sneak, and Sneak Savant makes scouting a cakewalk. It's ridiculous. The high level rogue is truly a scary class.
AC just there at high level. The player with the AC did pick up Side by Side which helps them set up flanks without having to position across, so that is one good effect. But often the level 19 rogue just flat foots the enemy so flanking is irrelevant.
At least my players love roleplaying keeping the AC alive as the team pet. They freak out more when something happens to that dog than another player.
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AC just there at high level. The player with the AC did pick up Side by Side which helps them set up flanks without having to position across, so that is one good effect. But often the level 19 rogue just flat foots the enemy so flanking is irrelevant.
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I agree. One of the best abilities of companions and summoned creatures IMO is their ability to help the frontline flanking the targets. But when you have a Gang Up rogue in the party the rogue trivialize this completely.
What about this companion support ability. It isn't useful someway?
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The biggest problem with animal companions, IMO, is expectations. They are not player characters, or even cornerstone class features. They are feats. Feats which can flank with you for no actions and soak enemy hits that could put stronger PCs down. If you don't like their accuracy, use their support benefit instead.
A ranger with an animal companion can't be that much better than a ranger who spent their feats on something else. If you want your pet to be the star of the show, be a summoner instead.
My biggest gripe is how much the support benefits vary. None of them are useless, but some are general debuffs or DPR enhancers and others are niche and will only shine in certain parties. You either neither to reflavor or be really meta about your party composition instead of organically choosing a species.
The problem is Dex can go much, much higher then +6. Assuming at Nimble your dex on a perfectly dex creature is 6, that's not including specializzation which can bump that up from 6 to 7 or even 9 if you are a Beastmaster staking 3 specializations. Which ironically Armor Runes 100% fix.
About size its an overheight overrate problem. It's only becomes a problem if you get a medium/large companion and make it savage what will make it huge but if your companion starts small or you choose it to become nimble its easy to restrict it to medium size or even large (large size isn't a big problem once they can still pass trough medium sized corridors only considering them as difficult terrain).Maybe I'm missing something, but: "Savage Animal Companions
• If your companion is Medium or smaller, it grows by one size."
You can't get it Huge.
____________________________Also, that AC problem with savage animals. Doesn't barding solve it? I see that both high and low-DEX versions have the same Item+DEX=+6 bonus.
You right I forget that only up to medium size companions grows if is large the companion cannot grow anymore.
Well pointed.
The biggest problem with animal companions, IMO, is expectations. They are not player characters, or even cornerstone class features. They are feats. Feats which can flank with you for no actions and soak enemy hits that could put stronger PCs down. If you don't like their accuracy, use their support benefit instead.
A ranger with an animal companion can't be that much better than a ranger who spent their feats on something else. If you want your pet to be the star of the show, be a summoner instead.
My biggest gripe is how much the support benefits vary. None of them are useless, but some are general debuffs or DPR enhancers and others are niche and will only shine in certain parties. You either neither to reflavor or be really meta about your party composition instead of organically choosing a species.
Exactly!
Many people creates the expectation like if the companions was a secondary char when it's only a new "ability" that you chars gets usually at cost of your 3rd-action.
It's similar to what happens to summon spells where many people expect that the summoned creatures working as main force of the caster when in practice they are just a very versatile 3rd-action sustained spell.
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The problem is Dex can go much, much higher then +6. Assuming at Nimble your dex on a perfectly dex creature is 6, that's not including specializzation which can bump that up from 6 to 7 or even 9 if you are a Beastmaster staking 3 specializations. Which ironically Armor Runes 100% fix.Eh? How? What I'm seeing is base max +3 + 1 Mature + 2 Nimble + 1 Spec = +7
And that's all.
Ah, yes, you can't stack stats from specializations: "The first time an animal gains a specialization, it gains the following".
So, nimble have max +1 compared to savage. Not an end of the world.
Ok, the results can vary a bit more for companions with low base dex (and sometimes not max Str at the same time), yeah.
+2 for spec, so +8-9. That's 2-3 points of AC difference.
Before the change with proficiencies there was also a -2 from Proficiency as Nimble Companions were going up to Master.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How would you actually go about fixing this then, if I might ask?
In general, how does one go about 'fixing' a deliberate design decision made for balance reasons?
Skimming through the other responses, I think that my thoughts have already been covered. That Animal Companions and similar are not intended to be primary martial characters able to compete and compare directly and alone with a Ranger or a Gunslinger. They are a companion - a piece of their primary character's toolkit.
And like all parts of a character's toolkit, one particular tool may not be suitable in all situations. PF2 doesn't give you a hammer big enough that you can treat every problem like a nail.
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AC just there at high level. The player with the AC did pick up Side by Side which helps them set up flanks without having to position across, so that is one good effect. But often the level 19 rogue just flat foots the enemy so flanking is irrelevant.
...I agree. One of the best abilities of companions and summoned creatures IMO is their ability to help the frontline flanking the targets. But when you have a Gang Up rogue in the party the rogue trivialize this completely.
What about this companion support ability. It isn't useful someway?
When you have players with greater and major striking stacked with runes and maxed out damage boosting abilities regularly critting for 100 plus points of damage, you don't much notice the support abilities.
It's mostly the player trying to use the AC to feel like they didn't waste all the feats for an AC.
The biggest problem with animal companions, IMO, is expectations. They are not player characters, or even cornerstone class features. They are feats. Feats which can flank with you for no actions and soak enemy hits that could put stronger PCs down. If you don't like their accuracy, use their support benefit instead.
A ranger with an animal companion can't be that much better than a ranger who spent their feats on something else. If you want your pet to be the star of the show, be a summoner instead.
My biggest gripe is how much the support benefits vary. None of them are useless, but some are general debuffs or DPR enhancers and others are niche and will only shine in certain parties. You either neither to reflavor or be really meta about your party composition instead of organically choosing a species.
It's a lot of feats though for not a cornerstone class ability. If it were one or two feats, sure, shouldn't be too powerful.
It's AC base feat, mature AC, then nimble or savage AC, then specialization. Then toss in a feat like get heal animal and side by side. You basically spent five feats for a nearly useless AC at high level. A five feat investment sure seems like you really invested a lot to build around an AC as a cornerstone feature of your character.
Once I found this out with my druid, I asked the DM to retrain out of my AC feats because it was too much of a pain to use at high level. Just a liability keeping it alive and clean of conditions. At high level so many monsters can apply multiple conditions passively or you get hit by waves of spells. It's just not worth the bookkeeping and resources to keep it alive and clean of negative effects for three dice of damage maybe once a round if the AC can actually get to the monster or punch through its DR.
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AC not really disposable hit points. It's hit points you have to heal, track, and conditions you have to keep track of. Unless you're roleplaying absent any personality, your character and the party probably don't want to see your AC suffer and die.
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The biggest problem with animal companions, IMO, is expectations. They are not player characters, or even cornerstone class features. They are feats.
Yeah, if you want to see how much of a class budget you would need to devote to "a combat buddy who is comparable to another player character" you should look at the Summoner.
The Ranger and Druid without their animal companions are much more effective (even having spent feats on their animal companion) than a Summoner is without their Eidolon. PF2 is deeply invested in niche protection, so if you really want a character to have a combat bear who is formidable, you might want to play a summoner with a Beast Eidolon.
Animal companion becomes fairly useless after level 16. Can't breach DR. Doesn't do much damage. Attack roll is ok and AC not bad on a nimble companion. Saves are fine. Hit points fine.
Damage too low and lack of ability to penetrate DR or move in three dimensions if not choosing a bird makes them feel like a sort of tacked on useless bunch of feats.
It is still a sponge and still can grapple.
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It is still a sponge and still can grapple.Animal companion becomes fairly useless after level 16. Can't breach DR. Doesn't do much damage. Attack roll is ok and AC not bad on a nimble companion. Saves are fine. Hit points fine.
Damage too low and lack of ability to penetrate DR or move in three dimensions if not choosing a bird makes them feel like a sort of tacked on useless bunch of feats.
I have not found this to be true. If you build a strength based AC, it will get hit far more often and pretty much destroyed by AoE effects.
If you build a dex-based AC, it doesn't grapple very well at all.
Just out of curiosity, Deriven Firelion, what is your opinion of an Animal Companion for PFS? In theory you top out at level 11, but in practice leveling up really slows down in the 9+ range. Or in the 6+ range if you play multiple characters.
I think up to level 11 is generally good.
It gets problematic when you start fighting lots of creatures with DR, passive save effects (auras, gazes), high ACs, and flight. It is rarer prior to level 10 to 12, but becomes extremely common level 15 plus.
And the 3 dice plus Strength and minor bonus feels like throwing pebbles at giants.
It is still a sponge and still can grapple.Animal companion becomes fairly useless after level 16. Can't breach DR. Doesn't do much damage. Attack roll is ok and AC not bad on a nimble companion. Saves are fine. Hit points fine.
Damage too low and lack of ability to penetrate DR or move in three dimensions if not choosing a bird makes them feel like a sort of tacked on useless bunch of feats.
I have not found this to be true. If you build a strength based AC, it will get hit far more often and pretty much destroyed by AoE effects.
If you build a dex-based AC, it doesn't grapple very well at all.
You have to go Indomitable Companion to get Expert Barding proficiency. Yes it still comes undone at level 19. But up till then you are no more than 2 AC behind a typical martial like a Ranger. Your Athletics check will be somewhere between 0 to -3 that of a maxed strength PC, except at level 20 where you are 4 behind - the numbers jump around a lot level by level.
Obviously it is not as good as a PC doing it, but you have to evaluate an Animal Companion like it is a second attack. It has enough HP to take some hits even crits. It will get crit. Healing out of combat is cheap. It is more effective than your grapple with a MAP penalty.
I do think very high level does need to be looked at again. I would like some more item options. But they do work.
How on earth are you guys only 2 point behind?
My 17th-level champion summoned his horse into battle last weekend and we all realized with horror that its AC was ten point behind my own. TEN! Enemies couldn't miss except on a 1, and nearly every hit was a crit.
It only lasted the three rounds that it did because I could do two champion reactions a round and some lay on hands to sustain it.
It goes without saying that it was not sustainable.
The attacks are pretty terrible too.
How on earth are you guys only 2 point behind?
My 17th-level champion summoned his horse into battle last weekend and we all realized with horror that its AC was ten point behind my own.
Well I said Ranger not Champion. Ranger, Barbarians, Inventors Investigators, Swashbuckler, Thaumaturges, ie most martials are only Expert in their armour till level 19. One was 17 I think. I'm not talking about Monks Champions or Fighters. I didn't see that as a fair comparison point.
Your Champion is 2 levels of proficiency higher, so 4 points plus another 2 from a shield. Then for the rest I'd have to see how you built your mount. Those numbers were for an optimally barded Bear with every possible investment in it.
The argument could easily be made that bringing out the beast and letting it absorb punishment for three rounds was a net detriment, as it cost no less than three feats to do it as well as actions to summon and control it (opportunity cost), and required numerous limited reactions and focus spells to keep it in the fight that long (resource costs which could have benefited the PCs more directly).
I worked up a quick DEX AC Spreadsheet to show just how bad these Animal companions are.
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You spent 5 feats on this plus another feat for a focus point healing spell.
OK I haven't checked your numbers but it seems like a good companion to me. Know that you can take 3 specialisation feats not 2 depending on how you are taking your animal companion. They fixed that up for the Ranger in the Remaster.
Also you only take an animal only focus point healing if it is free. For the same price you can get one that does everything that lives.For a 1D6 DEX Maxed Animal companion on average from L1-L20
This seems OK to me. Beside Dex companions aren't where the problem lies. It is all strength ones.
So really what are the benefits? If there is a great support action that helps a PC with real attack/damage capabilities. A small pool of hit points to soak 1 round of a boss's attacks, or maybe delay for 1-3 rounds a minion. It can flank for some amount of rounds before it is dropped. Is that worth 5+ feats to you? It certainly isn't worth spending actions on healing in combat to decrease your effectiveness to keep this thing alive.
Who heals in combat? Only rarely or if you have a specialist healer.
An animal companion at level 20 will have 180ish HP and will take 2 critical hits to take down. As a speed bump that will take a boss or 2 lessers a full round.If you are playing with animal companions or summons or eidolons, then you want to be taking buffs that benefit the entire party. Things like Haste 7 or the composition cantrips. You just don't typically have the actions or the resources to buff your minions.
Yeah, I'm with Gortle, your numbers are good. Tanking-wise, Companions have honorable ACs and Saves and can take a hit or 2 (that won't hit your martials). Attack wise, they are indubitably weak, but they are much stronger when you just get the new feat (and as such when they cost you your highest level feats) and weaker otherwise (when they cost only lower level feats). Also, starting at level 4, they have a Stride/Strike for free every round so they become extremely interesting from that moment on.
Personally, I never had any issue with my ACs, quite the contrary, they are very often quite efficient for their cost.
What is bad about animal companions is the Apex companion feat. It is a minor set of buffs. Doesn't affect AC or to hit. You probably have the reach already.
Plus it doesn't last long so you have to do it in combat. As an apex ability it is very weak.
What is bad about animal companions is the Apex companion feat. It is a minor set of buffs. Doesn't affect AC or to hit. You probably have the reach already.
Plus it doesn't last long so you have to do it in combat. As an apex ability it is very weak.
Super weak.
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Quick shout out to Inventor's Construct Companion which can be kept up in accuracy with Lock on if needed but truly shines in its breadth of immunities. Some of the biggest problems animal companions have at higher level are helped when the companion is immune to bleed, death effects, disease, doomed, drained, fatigued, ect...
Innovations not withstanding to give it things like resistance to all damage, ranged attacks, bonuses against magic.
Also since it can be healed with quick repair, damage dealt to it often takes seconds to repair. Should the worst happen you get your main feature back after only 1 day of downtime.
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Quick shout out to Inventor's Construct Companion which can be kept up in accuracy with Lock on if needed but truly shines in its breadth of immunities. Some of the biggest problems animal companions have at higher level are helped when the companion is immune to bleed, death effects, disease, doomed, drained, fatigued, ect...
Innovations not withstanding to give it things like resistance to all damage, ranged attacks, bonuses against magic.Also since it can be healed with quick repair, damage dealt to it often takes seconds to repair. Should the worst happen you get your main feature back after only 1 day of downtime.
And you don't have to feel guilty about it getting killed, either. That's huge.