Monsters and how to Make Them


Advice


Greetings all and hope you are having a wonderful day so far!

I've been DMing my own campaign for a while, which was based off of 3.5 D&D, and I am seeking advice on the creation of Monsters, as detailed below.

I am in the process of writing a Pathfinder 2E campaign with an eye to rewrite the Threshold Campaign setting (ie, my campaign setting) into Pathfinder.

For some background, I have already gone through the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Gamemastery Guide and did not find precisely what I seek, though I'm aware there are general rules for monster creation in the Gamemastery Guide.

In 3.5, as people may be aware, you have races, templates and classes. The templates and classes can be added to races in order to facilitate the creation of anything. So, if one wanted to make a level 16 Fighter Ogre, one would do that...or create a level 15 Corpse Creature (sentient zombie) Fighter Ogre, that was also possible.

How do I do the same in Pathfinder 2E? Or, will I need to write my own independent rules for this? I realize that each creature gives you 1-3 options for them, but those options may not fit what I wish to do in my game.

Thank you so much for any assistance. Or, if someone has already created a functional version of said rules, this would be great. And, also, a place where you can get the base racial stats for different Pathfinder races that are typically monstrous races, that would be great too, if it exists.

As it stands, it seems I'll have to somehow reserve engineer the things I want to use. Just starting the campaign, it seems that I might have to reverse engineer "Rats" for my first encounter. (First encounters must always be rats. It's tradition!)

Thanks again!

Regards,

Kerry


In PF2, monster and NPC stats are no longer created 'bottom up' by calculating them from class levels, race, and so on. Instead, they are simply set to the values that they should be based on the creature's desired level and specialization. The general rules for creature creation in the GMG that you've already found are perfectly servicable for that.

For example, If you want to create a level 16 Fighter Ogre, you can simply start with the Base Road Map of a Soldier (High attack, High damage, High AC; mostly Moderate stats otherwise; Reactive Strike reaction) and find the appropriate values in the tables (e.g. +32 to hit for 3d12+18). That'll make for a well balanced creature, and from that point you can get a bit creative with giving it special abilities and adjustments. If you adjust the roadmap to better represent your creature (maybe an Ogre Fighter actually has only Moderate AC, but High HP instead; or maybe it hits for Extreme damage but has a Terrible Will save), you want to increase and decrease stats roughly by an equal degree.

For special abilities, you can get some inspiration in the existing stat blocks as to what's appropriate at each level. Generally, these escalate in effectiveness the higher the level is – for example, while a level 7 creature might have Grab, a level 16 creature more likely will have Improved Grab.


What you are looking for is the Building Creatures rules from the Gamemastery Guide.

How that works in practice is that you use your existing creature or template idea as the answer to the first two sections "Develop the Concept" and "Understanding and Choosing Statistics". Then you fill in the names of attacks and special abilities also from the existing creature and then fill in all the numbers from the tables that create pretty much the entire rest of the Building Creatures pages.

As a specific example, let's take the idea of creating a level 16 Fighter Ogre.

Looking at Ogres in the bestiaries, I see the level 3 Ogre Warrior. Which is pretty close to the concept of the enemy that is wanted, but is drastically the wrong level and doesn't really have any Fighter class features.

So:
Step 1 - Concept. level 16 Ogre Fighter. Check.

Step 2 - Picking statistics for the theme. At first glance it looks like the Ogre Warrior has high Strength and Constitution and low to very low of everything else. Checking the expected stats for a level 3 creature, I notice that the Strength at +5 actually falls into the Extremely high category for a level 3. Noticing that, I am also going to spot check its melee attack bonus. I see that its Ogre Hook bonus of +12 only falls into the High category for a level 3 creature. So that will be the first Fighter class feature added - bumping the creature up to Extreme level for its melee attack bonus. I'll also add Attack of Opportunity (a.k.a Reactive Strike) since that is a hallmark guaranteed feature of the Fighter class. If this Ogre also uses a shield I would add Shield Block as well.

Step 3 - Fill in the numbers.

At this point, we are just pulling numbers off of the tables for the level 16 creature. I would go with:

STR +10, DEX +4, CON +9, INT -1, WIS +4, CHA -2
Skills: Athletics +35, Intimidation +28
HP 370
AC 36 low tier to again match the level 3 Ogre Warrior
Fortitude +30, Reflex +25, Will +22
◆ Ogre Hook +34 (deadly 3d10, reach 10 feet, trip), Damage 3d12+18 piercing deadly dice count increases with the base damage dice of the attack. So at level 16 both the enemies and player characters should have 3 damage dice and therefore 3 dice on the deadly trait
◆ Javelin +27 (thrown 30 feet), Damage 3d6+15 piercing
↺ Reactive Strike

And now we have a stat block for a level 16 Ogre Fighter.

When downleveling a higher level creature, such as if you want to use a Hag for a level 1 encounter and want it to be specifically a Blood Hag (level 8) instead of a Sea Hag (level 3) or Green Hag (level 4 - probably with Weak Template), then you are going to want to check the special abilities to make sure that they are in line with things that other creatures have at that level.

For the Blood Hag, make sure to remove any spells that are too high of level for a level 2 or 3 creature. And maybe reduce the fly speed of Fiery Form and/or limit it to no more than a few feet above the ground so that the Blood Hag can't kite the party or easily escape when things go badly since the low level characters won't have flight access of their own like they would when closer to level 8.


Also, you shouldn't need to reverse engineer rats as they already exist: https://2e.aonprd.com/MonsterFamilies.aspx?ID=86


Got it. Thanks! I thought that this was the case. Thanks so much for confirming!


Also, you're picking an interesting moment to make your own Pathfinder setting, because Pathfinder is going through a remaster process to move it further away from D&D intellectual property. You should probably decide now whether you want to use the more familiar trappings or the shiny new stuff. Said shiny stuff will be found in books called Player Core and GM Core, and the soon to be published Monster Core and eventually published Player Core 2.

Many of the changes are simply renames, like magic missile becoming force barrage. Many spells also got punch ups, like black tentacles' replacement slither.

The biggest setting change, though, is the removal of alignment. I cover the exact mechanics in this thread: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43y1z?Sanctificaton-and-You-A-Guide-by-Captain -Morgan

Creatures that were intrinsically affiliated with good alignment before (celestials) will now have the "holy" trait. Creatures that were intrinsically affiliated with evil alignment (fiends and undead) will now have the "unholy" trait. Lawful and chaotic alignment no longer exist in the mechanical sense because Paizo wasn't really telling stories about that anyway.

As a setting creator, you should consider what framework will better support the stories you want to tell. While Golarion tends to assume holy and unholy map with good and evil morality, you could take it in a different direction where angels aren't necessarily nice and good and demons aren't necessarily evil. That works a lot better once you divorce those mechanics from PCs and most NPCs.


One more piece of advice: Don't waste much time on determining ability scores/modifiers. They are also not used to derive any stats anymore and the only time you would roll them is when the monster/NPC makes a skill check for which it doesn't have a specified bonus, which happens almost never.

Sovereign Court

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A big difference between PF1 and PF2 monster design is that PF2 design is really focused on the end result, while PF1 design is more concerned with the process of how you get there.

---

In PF1, you'd take a base creature, add templates, add levels, and calculate where you end up.

Then you could compare that to a table of "what numbers should a creature of this level actually have?" and you were probably off from that by a lot. So then you could invent some "special abilities" to give you a bonus or penalty of some kind to get closer to the table.

---

PF2 monster design is much more to the point. "My party is level 14, I want a Moderate difficulty challenge here, so the XP table says I can do that with a level 16 solo creature. Okay so now I want a level 16 ogre/warrior flavored monster". You look in the creature design tables and they give you the numbers you need. You add a couple more abilities. And done.

The numbers are pretty much automatic. They're just the numbers that are appropriate for a monster of that level, with the kind of style you asked for (bruiser, soldier, ambusher etc.) The abilities is where you do most of the creative work.

That also means that a lot of the boring work of looking up numbers can be automated, and it has been. I like to use this website to do that for me: monster tools. You start out by telling it:
- the level of the monster
- creature type
- roadmap (soldier, spellcaster etc.)

From that, it can fill in a lot of numbers for you with "typical" values. Saves a lot of work, and the result is pretty good. You get a monster that is exactly as powerful as you asked for.


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Thanks so much! Yes, converting the setting from 3.5 to Pathfinder is going to be a lot of work. My Player's Handbook is currently sitting at 700 pages long. Now, a lot of the work doesn't need to be redone. My races typically have about 20 pages, give or so, of text to explain to players the nuances of their societies. And, most of that isn't rules-based. The overwhelming majority is lore, and thankfully, that is universal.

But, as far as the other stuff, it's probably smart, given the absurd state of things legally speaking, and the grasping and crushing nature of copyright once it gets into the hands of a entity determined to destroy all artistic value and boil it down to pure, petty profits in the hands of stockholders that don't care about games and go out on yachts when they want to have fun:D ...but it doesn't matter to me much, because I'll for my setting I'll write the rules for races, classes, spells, feats, etc. I won't be taking anything from Pathfinder other than the base rules, and even some of those will be heavily modified...probably. And, I will be creating a schema for monster design that is more flexible. The current monster design isn't bad, per se, depending on what you're doing, but for my purposes, I'm going to need something more narratively consistent. Ultimately, in a choice between 5E and Pathfinder, Pathfinder wins because there's not much to do with 5E. They've sucked everything useful or interesting out of it for the most part, and the only rules left are Roll a D20, and the highest roll wins. Plus, advantage/disadvantage, which I feel is a net loss for the system. So, for me, 5E can't even be modified to work with Threshold.

However, the above is still super useful as I plan to run a generic Pathfinder campaign in Golarion to become acquainted with the system, broadly speaking. It is remarkably easy to write for it, and I absolutely love how fast combat resolves. It's a good system, and I'm not even sure why it's better than 3.5, but my experience just shows that it is. So, I'm excited to do something really interesting with it!


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Kerry Allen wrote:
And, I will be creating a schema for monster design that is more flexible. The current monster design isn't bad, per se, depending on what you're doing, but for my purposes, I'm going to need something more narratively consistent.

So, neither of those things sounds true from what you've said so far. What you are looking for isn't a flexible system focused on the narrative. You're looking for rigid but thorough rules to satisfy your instincts as a gamer. The PF2 monster creation rules are extremely flexible because they only really care about the end result that winds up in the narrative-- ie, what your players interact with. Bottom up monster building doesn't actually tend to be very consistent, either, at least as far as creating level appropriate challenges are concerned. Now, maybe you are good enough at game design* to generate a set of rules so robust it can create a consistent play experience across loads of different monster types at all levels of play. But the thing is your players would never know the difference, because they don't see all the extra work you did on the back end. They just see however much punishment the monster dishes out and how much it withstands, plus whatever cool flavorful stuff you add. The work you're doing is solely for yourself. I dabbled with building NPCs as PCs when I first started PF2, but once the building creatures rules were published I realized how much easier those were, not just to build but to actually run.

*To be brutally honest, what you've shared so far has not inspired much faith you're up to this task. Your first post on the forum (where you somehow bought a bunch of books that didn't even seem to be Pathfinder 2e) and things like apparently missing the existence of rats in the bestiary both make it seem like you're someone rushing to execute big ideas while not paying too much attention to detail. Because of its crit system, the PF2 math engine is very fine tuned, and shifting a creature's to hit or AC by a point or two drastically change how it runs in play. It doesn't sound like you've actually played the game yet, which is concerning if you're planning to rewrite said game.

Now I have a very limited window into your experience right now, and might be completely off base. But if you haven't just played the game as written yet, I'd strongly urge you to do so.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you want your ogre to be more fighter-like, follow the advice of the posters above me (it really is great advice), but add two or three fighter class feats as your monster's abilities.

Not only will it immediately make the monster more recognizable as a fighter, those abilities have already been balanced by level.

I would not recommend giving as many feats and abilities as a PC of that level. Just enough to make your concept work.

A 16th-level ogre fighter, for example, would most certainly have Attack of Opportunity (Reactive Strike in the Remaster), but could also be given Whirlwind Strike and Swipe.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Kerry Allen wrote:
And, I will be creating a schema for monster design that is more flexible. The current monster design isn't bad, per se, depending on what you're doing, but for my purposes, I'm going to need something more narratively consistent.

So, neither of those things sounds true from what you've said so far. What you are looking for isn't a flexible system focused on the narrative. You're looking for rigid but thorough rules to satisfy your instincts as a gamer. The PF2 monster creation rules are extremely flexible because they only really care about the end result that winds up in the narrative-- ie, what your players interact with. Bottom up monster building doesn't actually tend to be very consistent, either, at least as far as creating level appropriate challenges are concerned. Now, maybe you are good enough at game design* to generate a set of rules so robust it can create a consistent play experience across loads of different monster types at all levels of play. But the thing is your players would never know the difference, because they don't see all the extra work you did on the back end. They just see however much punishment the monster dishes out and how much it withstands, plus whatever cool flavorful stuff you add. The work you're doing is solely for yourself. I dabbled with building NPCs as PCs when I first started PF2, but once the building creatures rules were published I realized how much easier those were, not just to build but to actually run.

*To be brutally honest, what you've shared so far has not inspired much faith you're up to this task. Your first post on the forum (where you somehow bought a bunch of books that didn't even seem to be Pathfinder 2e) and things like apparently missing the existence of rats in the bestiary both make it seem like you're someone rushing to execute big ideas while not paying too much attention to detail. Because of its crit system, the PF2 math engine is very fine tuned, and shifting a creature's to hit or AC by a point or...

You are welcome to your opinions, random internet person! :) Genuinely, however, thank you again for confirming what I thought to be the case regarding the rules system! And, I'm glad that you like this game and are invested in it. You wouldn't be so defensive of a game that you didn't enjoy a lot, and that's great! I'm always happy when someone finds something they like exactly the way they like it! There are lots of elements about the system that I really like as well! At any rate, I've got what I need and am unlikely to comment here further, but thanks again, and I wish you all the best!


The PF2 system has its math backbones done well, so...

While the current creature design rules sadly gutted "bottom up"/"simulationist" design to make space for an understandably sane "top down"/"gamist" balance that just WORKS, it should work well with the former provided someone actually spends the time and effort.

Sovereign Court

Sometimes as a player I grumble a bit about "so they have that rogue thing and that fighter thing as well, isn't that convenient for them..."

And yeah, that's partly because NPCs don't truly get built like PCs. They're just a sort of hollow outer shell that looks like a PC class, with just enough class ability sauce to be convincing stand-ins.

But on the other hand, that's also part of the brilliance. It saves heaps of time, and guarantees that you get to a much more on-target balance result.

One of the tips in the monster design guidelines I particularly like is this one:

GMG p. 68 wrote:
Avoid abilities that do nothing but change the creature’s math, also known as “invisible abilities.” These alter a creature’s statistics in a way that’s invisible to the players, which makes the creature less engaging because the players don’t see it using its abilities in a tangible or evocative way. For example, an ability that allows a creature to use an action to increase its accuracy for the round with no outward sign (or worse, just grants a passive bonus to its accuracy) isn’t that compelling, whereas one that increases its damage by lighting its arrows on fire is noticeable. These both work toward the same goal—dealing more damage this round—but one is far more memorable.

This sounds really reasonable and obvious when you read it like that. But when you start putting it into practice, you notice it's really powerful advice. Compare this to a lot of PF1 monster design that actually had a lot of "internal" creature design just to satisfy getting to required numbers, but that was pretty invisible to players.

This also pairs well with another part of PF2 monster design philosophy: think about how much the monster has to show off. Most monsters aren't going to last more than 5 rounds in combat. Giving a monster more abilities than it can possibly have time to use, is a waste of design time. And it makes the statblock overly complicated for the GM to use. Harder to see what's important.

Some abilities don't need to be in the statblock at all. Basically anything the monster does that won't happen during combat, doesn't need to be in the statblock. It can (should) go in the description as flavor. But it doesn't need to be mechanical.

To contrast that to older design: in PF1, some of the bad guys in Iron Gods had a quarter page devoted to item creation feats that they had, and tech items that needed multiple rounds to draw and use. But they lasted for two combat rounds because they just didn't have level-appropriate stats.

The "hollow" design of PF2 monsters means you don't have this problem anymore. If the description says they can craft tech items, I'll believe it. I don't need to see them spend feats on item crafting. And I don't want their combat stats to not actually match the threat level they're supposed to be because it was all spent on item crafting feats.

Once you decide that the statblock is just for combat, not for what they can do off-screen in their own villain downtime, it's massively simplifying and liberating as GM.


Ascalaphus wrote:

Sometimes as a player I grumble a bit about "so they have that rogue thing and that fighter thing as well, isn't that convenient for them..."

And yeah, that's partly because NPCs don't truly get built like PCs. They're just a sort of hollow outer shell that looks like a PC class, with just enough class ability sauce to be convincing stand-ins.

But on the other hand, that's also part of the brilliance. It saves heaps of time, and guarantees that you get to a much more on-target balance result.

One of the tips in the monster design guidelines I particularly like is this one:

GMG p. 68 wrote:
Avoid abilities that do nothing but change the creature’s math, also known as “invisible abilities.” These alter a creature’s statistics in a way that’s invisible to the players, which makes the creature less engaging because the players don’t see it using its abilities in a tangible or evocative way. For example, an ability that allows a creature to use an action to increase its accuracy for the round with no outward sign (or worse, just grants a passive bonus to its accuracy) isn’t that compelling, whereas one that increases its damage by lighting its arrows on fire is noticeable. These both work toward the same goal—dealing more damage this round—but one is far more memorable.

This sounds really reasonable and obvious when you read it like that. But when you start putting it into practice, you notice it's really powerful advice. Compare this to a lot of PF1 monster design that actually had a lot of "internal" creature design just to satisfy getting to required numbers, but that was pretty invisible to players.

This also pairs well with another part of PF2 monster design philosophy: think about how much the monster has to show off. Most monsters aren't going to last more than 5 rounds in combat. Giving a monster more abilities than it can possibly have time to use, is a waste of design time. And it makes the statblock overly complicated for the GM to use. Harder to see what's important....

This is a very interesting commentary, and all of that does indeed make sense.

I suppose my bigger issue is that I might want to be able to layer templates and classes and such onto a base race which has certain definable characteristics. I suppose that said definable characteristics.

This is why I mentioned "reverse engineering rats", (Which appears to have confused some people who thought I didn't know the Bestiary included rats, just as my previous post about purchasing books from the paizo.com caused people to claim that the Pathfinder 2E books purchased from literally the website of the company that makes the game were somehow forgeries that only look like the real thing. Both instances were humorous to me, to be sure. I did call the Gamemastery Guide a Dungeon Masters Guide, because it is PF2Es version thereto, and this clearly scrambled people's eggs. But, it here it would be cruel if I did not shortly exposition regarding "Reverse Engineering" at 5am, because, as a writer, of course I'm going to. In order to Reverse Engineer something, one must have that something in ones hot little hands. For instance, if I said I was going to reverse engineer a flying saucer, one would must needs have a flying saucer in ones possession. One could not reverse engineer a flying saucer without having one. That's a very sad thing, as I would very much like to reverse engineer an immortality machine for my own personal use. However, I cannot, as I lack an immortality machine. Thus, my statement that I intended to "reverse engineer rats" asserted that I knew of the location of said rats, ie, in the Bestiary. And, by now, I have already reverse engineered them! Hurray! So, now Mr. Morgan and Mr. Pete [I am dubious that Mr. Morgan owns his own maritime vessel and is acting officially as the commander of such in this interwebs thread. So, excuse me for excluding his title. I do understand that his name in no way merely implies that he enjoys the mid-range adult beverage of the same name.]...now Mr. Morgan and Mr. Pete can be confident going through life and understanding reverse engineering, and they didn't even need to Google it or ask ChatCPT what it was. I will bring this incident up to Saint Peter upon my future demise as a good deed, and I hope it will be enough to tip the scales! Even if not, it would have been cruelty to have not explained. And, in no way did I merely explain because it's 5am, and I unexpectedly woke up and am actually hoping that after a few minutes of writing that I'll be sleepy again. To say otherwise is pure slander! I did NOT merely chuckle to myself initially and move on at the expression of bafflement! Do not even hint at it!) Where was I? Oh, yes, it was about the rats. The reason I wished to reverse engineer our fictional and furry little RPG-rodent friends was to understand the nature of their race and what types of inherent qualities that involved. Having done it, the only quality that they had in common was their capacity to give you a disease (a rather cruel insinuation if you ask me, but there it is!)

This discovery dovetails perfectly with what you (Ascalaphus &
Lucas Yew) stated. The writers of the Bestiary did precisely what you described, and I have mathematical proof of it. And, that, thankfully, absolves me from the need to reverse engineer anything else from the Bestiary as the Gamergamemasteryingness Guide...(er, the DMG, but they can't call it that because terrible vampiric lawyers...possibly literally - they are WOTC lawyers, after all!...are waiting in the wing to snuff out the competition in the absurd arena of litigation!)

The points you make are good ones. Great ones even. But, my love of being able to transform a halfling into a rogue 12/wizard 6/vampire halfling of whatever level I wished through the application of templates and classes will be greatly missed! And, after all, the game does have, for instance Wizards. If I wanted the party to fight a wizard, would I not just make one? That seemed incongruent. Except, it isn't, because, in Pathfinder, you would, in fact, not make a wizard, you would make a simulacrum of a wizard, a "hollow" version, as you stated. And, having made many wizards doomed to summary slaughter in the past, spellbooks and all, I can certainly appreciate the simplicity.

The background from PF1 was also helpful in this regard. The idea that PCs and NPCs aren't really the same thing is true in terms of what we all see on-screen. Perhaps there is a half-measure that will satisfy both desires at once! And, thankfully, as I have no intention of creating anything new in my initial campaign and am not merely re-writing racial stats, I have some time to consider it. The idea that "yes, I am merely constructing an illusion, and you know very well that's what I'm doing" doesn't sit well with me at the table. Of course that's always what we are doing, but we don't say it, and we do pretend otherwise for the sake of immersion. I shall ponder this deep and hard and to much excess and eventually come up with a solution that I will probably hate but which I'll go along with anyways!

Also, Mr. Morgan seemed concerned for my capacity for writing. And, I do understand why. After all, he probably knows, being the astute young gentleman that he is!, that I have an indoor writing office with a desktop and also an outdoor writing office with a laptop, by the lake (and not by the ocean as I deserve, even though the ocean is very close, but I didn't want to inhabit a flood zone!). But, even Florida isn't in the mid-80s yet! And, thus, he was likely perplexed at how I might undertake such an endeavor in my indoor office with a cold beer or soda instead of outside with a frozen mixed beverage. I understand! This is a concern that I also share. The sun! The lake with the birds! They just won't do with mere low-70s weather! No! Never! But, my friend, worry not! For Summer is Coming! House something-or-other tells me so! And, soon, soon! ...I shall be writing in an environment more suited to one of my talents (In the fervent hope that I also, with the coming of Summer, suddenly develop heretofore unseen talents of some category!) So, so not fret, my friend! Have confidence! Writing will soon be done with a homemade frozen mango margarita in hand and water birds nearby! And, this well-used wooden desk will be denied my ministrations...at least until it's nearly 100 degrees outside and 100% humidity...and I'll die if I don't come in:)

Sovereign Court

Kerry Allen wrote:
The background from PF1 was also helpful in this regard. The idea that PCs and NPCs aren't really the same thing is true in terms of what we all see on-screen. Perhaps there is a half-measure that will satisfy both desires at once! And, thankfully, as I have no intention of creating anything new in my initial campaign and am not merely re-writing racial stats, I have some time to consider it. The idea that "yes, I am merely constructing an illusion, and you know very well that's what I'm doing" doesn't sit well with me at the table. Of course that's always what we are doing, but we don't say it, and we do pretend otherwise for the sake of immersion. I shall ponder this deep and hard and to much excess and eventually come up with a solution that I will probably hate but which I'll go along with anyways!

Yeah, I've found this is pretty important.

As a player, I know that low-level NPC "rogue" that we're fighting isn't built with the actual rogue class. But if he turns out to have both sneak attack and attack of opportunity, I'm still going to feel like he's breaking character.

In RPGs, immersion is being willing to be fooled, for your own entertainment. The whole game is make-believe. But willingness only goes so far.

If an NPC wizard starts casting a whole lot of divine spells, there had better be some story behind it, such as that she's actually a priest pretending to be a wizard. Of course, under the hood, the NPC is actually neither a PC wizard or a PC cleric. But that doesn't matter as much as the consistency.

Liberty's Edge

It is also possible in PF2 to build a NPC like a PC.


Ascalaphus wrote:
If an NPC wizard starts casting a whole lot of divine spells, there had better be some story behind it, such as that she's actually a priest pretending to be a wizard. Of course, under the hood, the NPC is actually neither a PC wizard or a PC cleric. But that doesn't matter as much as the consistency.

And besides we must keep in mind that NEITHER PCs nor NPCs are equivalent to in-fiction versions of themselves. Meaning Golarion wizard isn't either PC-build wizard or NPC-build wizard.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The main benefit i can see beginning monster creation using templates is conceptualizing the thing you are making becomes part of the formula and that formula providing consistency in the stats and abilities of the kinds of things by their traits

With the p2e approach the concept of what your making has only the structure you bring to the process.

You can always give yourself that structure with a list of monster races and traits that modify the concept like undead but I believe the op wanted to understand what abilities and stats are common to things of a kind, not by bruiser or ambusher, but by monster race and modifying traits.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

For the OP question check GM core 126. Creature traits with common features. The next pages have a class roadmap. Apply this road map in a similar way to a template to give a creature the feel of having levels in a particular class.

Sovereign Court

Yeah, the roadmaps based on creature type (undead, demon..) and role (soldier, spellcaster, ambusher..) are basically the new templates.


I should mention that templates exist in pf2e in the sense of giving traits, resistances and abilities.

https://2e.aonprd.com/MonsterTemplates.aspx

It also customisable lists of slot in abilities

https://2e.aonprd.com/MonsterFamilies.aspx?ID=92

(Other examples I can think of are cryptid mutations from the dark archives book and zombies). You can make your own similar lists for class abilities imo.

I agree with others that you should (and I do mean should) attempt to get used to the new system. Because bottom up design has always been awful, slow and imbalanced.

The pf2e way is faster, more balanced, way less rigid and encourages creativity. But it is different, just gotta get used to it first.

So if I wanted to make a skeleton fighter ogre I would:

- choose a level I wanted it to be.

- adjust figure out its rough stats according to the creature design scales and choose those values at a higher level (lots of free digital tools to do this online)

- apply the skeleton template

- give it a thematic skeleton ability, in this case nimble to go along with the fighter theme.

- give it attack of opportunity, and sudden charge and or brutish shove.

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