Any Good Options for Arcane and Undead?


Advice


Is there any good way for an arcane caster to gain control over undead without centering their character concept around it? To make this simpler, let's assume a generalist wizard or a sorcerer of the arcane bloodline.


As far as I know: Nope. Either you create the undead yourself, or your control of it will only be temporary.

Silver Crusade

One of the Thana-something metamagic feats from Ultimate Magic might be useful as a workaround. One of them allows mind-affecting spells to affect undead, IIRC.

edit-i haz it:

Threnodic spell


OldManAlexi wrote:
Is there any good way for an arcane caster to gain control over undead without centering their character concept around it? To make this simpler, let's assume a generalist wizard or a sorcerer of the arcane bloodline.

I'm surprised no one mentioned command undead which lasts 1 day/level and cannot be resisted by mindless undead. Big bad evil guy tosses some sort of burning bloody regenerating tyrannosaur skeleton at you? Command undead. He's yours now.

You can even give intelligent undead orders with an opposed Charisma check (remember that most undead have good Charisma scores, so they can be a bit stubborn), but in more or less all ways works like a hyped up charm person spell, except they don't even get the +5 bonus on the saving throw if you are threatening them when you cast it.

A more forceful version with a shorter duration is [url="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/controlUndead.html#_control-undead"]control undead[/i] which snares 2 HD worth of undead per caster level in a 30 ft. area, and gives you complete control over them. They follow and understand your orders even if you normally can't communicate with them. Additionally, you can make them do whatever the heck you want, and they get no say in it at all. No opposed Charisma check or anything. If you wanted, you could tell a Vampire to go Stake Himself and he'd do it.

Then again, there's always Diplomacy for sentient undead. Most sentient undead speak or understand languages, and it is entirely possible to convince them to aid you or even become their friend. Mind you, again, most powerful undead have really strong Charisma scores, so the Diplomacy DCs tend to be significantly harder than with normal people.

Also, in all three cases, the original type of the undead doesn't matter (unlike the very limited undead sorcerer bloodline). The command undead makes undead friendly, which makes it a surprisingly sweet option for sorcerers as unlike Control Undead they are likely less interested in revenge, and as a sorcerer your Charisma score tends to be pretty awesome, and has good synergy with diplomacy, and eventual undeath yourself if you choose that route.

Another tip for arcane necromancers. Enjoy the immunities that your undead have. You can use undead, particularly bloody skeletons, to tank enemies while you drop spells on them and your enemies. The skeletons are immune to spells like stinking cloud, cone of cold, cloudkill, and waves of exhaustion. Burning skeletons are immune to fire, which allows you to drop fireballs and similar spells into their ranks without harming your undead. Finally, if you make an undead skeleton out of a creature with the Fire subtype (such as a red dragon, fire giant, or efreeti) then they are immune to both elements.

I recommend bloody skeletons for general purposes, just because their ability to regenerate and reform if destroyed make using them more convenient.


I knew about the command undead and control undead spells. However, I was worried about their limitations. Control undead is amazingly powerful but the duration is limited. Command dead lasts for days but intelligent undead can resist your orders. I forgot about the Threnodic Spell metamagic. Adding that into the mix rounds out the options. Sort of an intermediate option between the two.

Diplomacy is a point I didn't think about. Though, I question how effective it is. I hesitate to call some of the intelligent undead truly sentient considering how consumed by their hunger they are. However, for things like vampires, this could be a great option. If you can craft a magic item with Protective Penumbra, you would have an instant friend.

Thanks for the help.


Probably not quite what your after, but don't forget that (if your DM is cool with it) you can take Leadership and get a Ghoul or Skeletal Champion monster cohort


OldManAlexi wrote:

I knew about the command undead and control undead spells. However, I was worried about their limitations. Control undead is amazingly powerful but the duration is limited. Command dead lasts for days but intelligent undead can resist your orders. I forgot about the Threnodic Spell metamagic. Adding that into the mix rounds out the options. Sort of an intermediate option between the two.

Diplomacy is a point I didn't think about. Though, I question how effective it is. I hesitate to call some of the intelligent undead truly sentient considering how consumed by their hunger they are. However, for things like vampires, this could be a great option. If you can craft a magic item with Protective Penumbra, you would have an instant friend.

Thanks for the help.

If it has an Intelligence greater than 2, it is sentient enough to reason and understand right and wrong. That's smart enough for most undead. As it turns out, most intelligent undead are very intelligent undead. Ghouls for example are generally of above-average Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Ghasts are exceedingly so. They hunger, and yet they are capable of choosing to not eat sentient creatures. That's what makes the majority of ghouls and ghasts so disgustingly evil is because they know what they're doing is evil and they just don't care. O.o

For example, a ghoul could happily engage in a long, drawn out conversation about the nature of good and evil, and agree that snuffing the life of a sentient creature for your own satisfaction is pretty terrible, and that inflicting pain is pretty terrible, and oppressing others is pretty terrible, and really would hate it if people did those things to it. That's before telling you that the food has been poisoned, causing a temporary loss of muscle control, upon which he paralyzes you and begins eating your fingers and toes first and working his way across your body in whatever would be the the most agonizing way because he really likes how it tastes when the blood is still warm and it's more fun for him or her to watch the look of horror and pain in your sentient little eyes while they're eating you in front of you. ಠ_ಠ

However, they're still sentient rational creatures, which means that they can be reasoned with or their personalities manipulated. You could convince a lich not to kill you. You could convince them to HELP you. You could even convince them to help you do something that would help you and the greater good that wouldn't normally be something they would do if you're really good at it.

For example, in the Red Hand of Doom, written by James Jacobs, there is a very evil druid lich who has holed up in his lair and the party comes across him as part of the main plot or as a side quest or something (I forget which). The lich is not a nice person, and he could care diddly about the main BBEG sweeping through the valleys and slaughtering peasants and such; but it was also an option to get the Lich to assist you (I think the party can help the lich get his phylactery back or some such from the BBEG, but it's been a while, I don't remember the circumstances). The long and short of it is that intelligent creatures are just like any other NPC. They can be negotiated with, reasoned with, bribed, and have senses and emotions too.

A very basic example might be to bribe some sentient undead. Most of those with hunger issues can be paid in livestock. Imagine the sheer convenience of having the people that would normally be trying to kill you bringing you fresh meat on a proverbial silver platter. Want that ghoul to help you stop the hobgoblins from pillaging the lowlands? Well the hobgoblin buffet line is that way. All the hobgoblins you can eat, and you get a free pass for this one, you sick bastard, you. (o.o)>

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Command Undead is probably the best option though. It creates a peace between you and the sentient undead. If you want absolute dominion, mindless undead are the way to go. It's generally difficult to control sentient creatures due to the fact they're sentient. Command Undead effectively being the friendly charm for undead.

If you want very loyal sentient undead who might qualify as minions, you might want to discuss this issue with your GM, show him this thread, and possibly work out the details of having some undead via the leadership feat, using their CR to determine the appropriate effective level or having them. That way you could have a shadow cohort, or a wight, or a ghoul, skeletal champion, or whatever as your #2.

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