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Personally, I wouldn't allow targeting hypothetical invisible enemies as a means to get around the targeting rules by repeatedly casting at the air. You can get around this by repeatedly targeting a teammate, but I think they should be allowed to feel a bit offended by it. ("Why do you keep growling at me??")
You can target your Familiar. Overall, you can't forbid its use without bending the rules.
Sure it's flavor text and many GMs allow re-flavoring - but I'd argue there is certainly noise here.
You are casting a spell, so there's noise anyway. It can't be done stealthily.
Yup, you'll start the occasional ambush early. Personally, I don't see ambushes actually occur as often as many assume, but there is that use. Compared to nearly every other familiar ability however, this is incredibly niche and will often be replaceable by normal familiar abilities.
You also map the dungeon for creatures. Don't forget this use. And inside dungeons you have walls and doors, so the noise of casting a spell and growling is not a problem.
Abilities the rely of the GM bending over backwards to be good
The other way around: The GM shouldn't bend over backwards to forbid this ability (as you state you'd do by preventing its use on the air or that it should cause issues with other party members).
I think people who are saying "oh you can't target thin air" are being kind of obtuse. Bag of rats is a thing and has been since like 2000, if not earlier.
Has it really been around - hated and reviled - for that long? And people still use it? Now that is some munchkinry with some serious staying power.
If it is intended for Keen Senses to be available permanently during exploration mode, then it would simply be an always-on type of thing - like the standard familiar abilities that give sensory upgrades.
Using targeting rule wording to cast a debuff Hex on your allies - or on nothing at all - in order to trigger Keen Senses just smells like a rules loophole exploit. So expect that GMs are going to treat it as such.
It's been around in theorycraft that long, yes. I've never actually seen a table where it was really a thing in game, so it's always a little surprising to see someone bring it up as though it were serious concern.
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You also map the dungeon for creatures. Don't forget this use.
Don't see this as too useful. With an imprecise sense the info you'll often get is "there is something vaguely in direction of room." Okay... a dungeon crawl expects there to be monsters/etc. in most rooms. This isn't as helpful as it first seems. At best you'll likely get "something big" or "a bunch of things" as descriptions to go off of.
Abilities the rely of the GM bending over backwards to be goodThe other way around: The GM shouldn't bend over backwards to forbid this ability (as you state you'd do by preventing its use on the air or that it should cause issues with other party members).
LOL The GM actually playing by the rules (you can't randomly target air with mental spells) is hardly bending over backwards to discriminate against a PC. Also repeatedly casting an offensive mental spell on allied creatures (PCs/familiar/etc.) is something I'd expect to cause a reaction. (Even if just small "Why are you doing this? That's weird.")
This is a big issue with many GM Dependent abilities. What you think "should" be the interpretation has little guarantee of matching the GMs thoughts. If their interpretation is different than your assumptions, then your ability isn't nearly as effective as you thought and/or you complain that they're harming your character.
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Overall, the remastered Wild Patron just doesn't seem to pull its weight compared to the other available options. Is it usable? Yes, in large part thanks to the cantrip hex being improved. Can you growl repeatedly at people for the familiar ability? Sure, most groups will probably allow this and laugh off your character's strange behavior / make jokes about it. But otherwise, it seems incredibly lacking compared to the other available options (kinda like the pre-remaster Witch vs any other caster).
Personally, I wouldn't allow targeting hypothetical invisible enemies as a means to get around the targeting rules by repeatedly casting at the air. You can get around this by repeatedly targeting a teammate, but I think they should be allowed to feel a bit offended by it. ("Why do you keep growling at me??")You can target your Familiar. Overall, you can't forbid its use without bending the rules.
Sure it's flavor text and many GMs allow re-flavoring - but I'd argue there is certainly noise here.You are casting a spell, so there's noise anyway. It can't be done stealthily.
Yup, you'll start the occasional ambush early. Personally, I don't see ambushes actually occur as often as many assume, but there is that use. Compared to nearly every other familiar ability however, this is incredibly niche and will often be replaceable by normal familiar abilities.You also map the dungeon for creatures. Don't forget this use. And inside dungeons you have walls and doors, so the noise of casting a spell and growling is not a problem.
Abilities the rely of the GM bending over backwards to be goodThe other way around: The GM shouldn't bend over backwards to forbid this ability (as you state you'd do by preventing its use on the air or that it should cause issues with other party members).
This would also exhaust you in exploration mode as you're using an action to cast, an action to move, and an action to command your familiar. So it only works if you're forcing the action to a crawl and using round-by-round time tracking the entire time you're in a dungeon.
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I'd say this is a much more benign usage, though. In that it's probably fine to use special senses like that in exploration mode, and is unlikely to break the game.
Yeah, for balance it seems kinda sad that Keen Senses isn't something more along the lines of:
"Your familiar gets an imprecise sense with a 60 foot range: one of Tremorsense, Scent, or Wavesense. You can change which sense any time you cast a Hex, any time you Refocus, or as a 10 minute exploration activity."
I'd probably allow that as a houserule.
The ability seems specifically designed to detect ambushes and discern what is beyond the door.
That's the problem. The standard sensory upgrade familiar abilities are designed to detect ambushes and discern what is beyond the door.
This Keen Senses ability has the restriction that it is only active while casting or sustaining a Hex. Which means that it is really designed to only be available during combat to detect hidden combatants.
So in comparison, it feels like a downgrade despite the doubled range.
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It'd be like making earth kineticists wait until combat to use Armor in Earth, because "there's no exploration activity for casting impulses, screw you". It's rare to see a GM be that punitive.
Despite the existence of Defend, I have to ask permission to use the Dueling Parry action as a custom exploration activity. And the poor Mountain Stance Monks are completely out of luck since it is very explicit that Stances are not allowed outside of combat.
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Don't see this as too useful. With an imprecise sense the info you'll often get is "there is something vaguely in direction of room."
You're describing a Vague Sense, Imprecise Senses allow you to pinpoint. But anyway, the point is not to have the exact square of the enemy but to have information about potential dangers, their size and numbers to adjust accordingly.
But I don't think the scouting makes up for a somewhat total lack of combat abilities (barring weird situational stuff) - it's definitely not as good as Resentment, even if isn't manifestly trash.
There is nearly always a best. Also, I feel that the Resentment Witch is overvalued. As of now, I haven't seen one in play so I want to have first hand experience before having a definite point of view on it.
Anyway, it's hard to compare a combat ability and an out of combat ability. So the Wilding Stewart Witch will stay an outlier.
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This Keen Senses ability has the restriction that it is only active while casting or sustaining a Hex. Which means that it is really designed to only be available during combat to detect hidden combatants.
I mean absolutely no offense, but I honestly think this is an interpretation that goes beyond the RAW.
I think it is designed the way it is to not be usable as an always-on exploration ability but to be useful when PCs feel they might be walking into an encounter and wish to make sure.
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You can always cast Wilding Word on your Familiar or whatever if the GM really insist in having a target.
I fully agree that it's weird to use it that way and that's strange there isn't a more obvious way of using your Familiar powers but it works and I hardly see how the GM could prevent it.Well the penalty is obviously supposed to be applied to an opponent but I can see it as very thematic, very 'nature red in tooth and claw' to use it on your familiar. You growl "pay attention!" at your familiar. It gets a shiver down its spine at the thought of what would happen if it got in a fight with you, and focuses all of it's effort on figuring out what's going on around it. Very animalistic; you're reinforcing the pack dominance hierarchy/pecking order.
A good example of a situation where a GM should stop thinking "how do I say no" and start thinking "how do I make this cool?"
Based on the pre-Remaster hexes, I thought about slapping your familiar and using Phase Familiar as a reaction to trigger the Keen Senses. Pretty flavorful too.
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I think it is designed the way it is to not be usable as an always-on exploration ability but to be useful when PCs feel they might be walking into an encounter and wish to make sure.
... by using what is normally considered a hostile spell ... on your allies...
You are saying that was the intent and purpose that the game developers had when writing that ability?
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... by using what is normally considered a hostile spell ... on your allies...
You are saying that was the intent and purpose that the game developers had when writing that ability?
It's definitely not the developers first thought but:
- It's RAW.- It's in line with common sense (if your Familiar can detect during combat it's rather expected that it can outside combat).
- It's balanced (actually it's more balanced).
So it's more of a happy hickup than an issue. If it wasn't for this interpretation, I fail to see any use of both Wilding Words and Keen Senses outside super niche cases (which shouldn't be the case for what seems to be your main ability outside spellcasting).
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If it wasn't for this interpretation, I fail to see any use of both Wilding Words and Keen Senses outside super niche cases (which shouldn't be the case for what seems to be your main ability outside spellcasting).
Which is why most players are going to look at the Wilding Steward patron as being horribly below the standard.
Only players who are morally opposed to houserules but aren't morally opposed to torturous logic are going to find the ability to be on-par with (not really better than) just using the standard familiar abilities.
So... I guess that is the ruling needed for PFS Witch players?
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Which is why most players are going to look at the Wilding Steward patron as being horribly below the standard.
Only players who are morally opposed to houserules but aren't morally opposed to torturous logic are going to find the ability to be on-par with (not really better than) just using the standard familiar abilities.
So... I guess that is the ruling needed for PFS Witch players?
It's actually not really true. If the online community agrees on a point and if it spreads around, it tends to then suffuse into gaming groups and can end up rather common. There are many such weird rule cases that have been slowly accepted and that now people consider natural.
Now, considering how specific it is, it may never reach the Overton window and then, yes, it'll be specific to a few players/tables.
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I think it is designed the way it is to not be usable as an always-on exploration ability but to be useful when PCs feel they might be walking into an encounter and wish to make sure.... by using what is normally considered a hostile spell ... on your allies...
You are saying that was the intent and purpose that the game developers had when writing that ability?
No. Since the condition is not "Cast a hostile spell on your allies".
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As Raven Black says, it can be cast in air.
Actually, from the reactions in this post, I think it's better to actually embrace this rule than to resist. It gives the Wilding Stewart Witch a perk and a mecanical reason to be played. And it works from a pure RAW point of view by casting the spell in the air so even if it's a bit far fetched it's not problematic.
So I'll just say: It's RAW, it's nice and if you think it's too weird just reflavor it for your table. Sometimes, weird unexpected things are good for the game.
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So I'll just say: It's RAW, it's nice and if you think it's too weird just reflavor it for your table. Sometimes, weird unexpected things are good for the game.
I'll just say: It needs errata. Otherwise there will be a lot of table variation and hurt feelings when some people try to build a Wilding Steward Witch and expect to be able to use Keen Senses during exploration - only to have the GM ask, 'which hex are you casting and on who?' and then have to try to argue the case that they should be allowed to cast Wilding Word on your allies without causing hostilities.
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I'll just say: It needs errata. Otherwise there will be a lot of table variation and hurt feelings when some people try to build a Wilding Steward Witch and expect to be able to use Keen Senses during exploration - only to have the GM ask, 'which hex are you casting and on who?' and then have to try to argue the case that they should be allowed to cast Wilding Word on your allies without causing hostilities.
There will be table variation as the ability is strongly GM dependent (as is anything related to senses). So it's certainly better not to use it in PFS, I agree.
But if your table variation comes from GMs who don't want to apply the rules as they are because they want to stick to a perceived intent and as such force their player to play something else... Well, I think discussion is the correct answer to that.
Resentment is very nice, so is Flamekeeper. Those are my top two picks.
Silence, Shadow, and Spinner are interesting, though I feel like Silence is completely supplanted by the remaster guidance on Mosquito Witch, just like pre-remaster.
Wild feels awkward. The cantrip encourages a weird sort of playstyle and having the enhanced senses only last until the start of your turn doesn't feel great. Yeah you can keep it rolling via sustaining, but it's still a bit clunky. Scent + Free Action Point Out in general is kind of odd because nine encounters out of ten it's almost nothing, but the one time it does work it can basically end a fight gimmick entirely. Depending on the types of encounters in the campaign, Wild can be anything from slightly problematic to essentially not having a familiar ability at all.
Inscribed is bad. Really bad. "Don't assume malice" is a common refrain but I genuinely don't know how you get to the current Inscribed Witch without some intentionality there. Not only is discern secrets as immensely mediocre as ever (and the only hex cantrip to retain its 1 minute lockout), but they managed to invite a horrific patron ability to go along with it.
FYI, Familiar of Keen Senses is quite a bit better than (remastered) familiar sense options. It grants 60' imprecise scent, tremorsense (which can sense through walls, as long as they moved that round), or wavesense, but familiars/pets in player core only have options for 20' precise hearing or 30' imprecise scent, neither of which allow wall hacking.
And no, the elemental familiars in RoE didn't include any tremorsense options.
And if the GM is annoyed by the familiar using this during exploration, well you presumably invested some familiar abilities in speech and maybe flier and speed, so you've got fewer in toughness and damage mitigation so he can take a few shots at it in combat to make you weigh your choices.
familiars/pets in player core only have options for 20' precise hearing or 30' imprecise scent, neither of which allow wall hacking.
Tremorsense and Wavesense are from Grand Bazaar. They weren't printed in Player Core, but they also aren't invalidated by Player Core either. They are still available.
Actually, from the reactions in this post, I think it's better to actually embrace this rule than to resist. It gives the Wilding Stewart Witch a perk and a mecanical reason to be played. And it works from a pure RAW point of view by casting the spell in the air so even if it's a bit far fetched it's not problematic.
Honestly, I'd allow it in my games (with some joking on the side at the silliness of the situation), but don't think it saves the Wilding Stewart Witch from being bottom of the pack when it comes to Witch Patrons.
Normal Familiar abilities can get a very similar benefit, and I don't see the tactical value of imprecise senses to be as powerful as you seem to for the majority of situations (occasionally very useful yes, but not enough to redeem being the defining ability of the Patron).
Part of it may be Exploration mode needing to be detailed more & have examples/rules for how to handle familiars (especially familiar scouting, which will have massive table variation), but overall I have a hard time seeing Wilding Stewart as particularly good compared to what any other familiar can get or what other Witch Patrons offer.
familiars/pets in player core only have options for 20' precise hearing or 30' imprecise scent, neither of which allow wall hacking.Tremorsense and Wavesense are from Grand Bazaar. They weren't printed in Player Core, but they also aren't invalidated by Player Core either. They are still available.
You're not my GM or anyone else's in this discussion, I would guess. That's for them to decide. Plenty on Reddit and the discords are deciding otherwise. For them, this is a significant difference in favor of this patron.
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You're not my GM or anyone else's in this discussion, I would guess. That's for them to decide. Plenty on Reddit and the discords are deciding otherwise. For them, this is a significant difference in favor of this patron.familiars/pets in player core only have options for 20' precise hearing or 30' imprecise scent, neither of which allow wall hacking.Tremorsense and Wavesense are from Grand Bazaar. They weren't printed in Player Core, but they also aren't invalidated by Player Core either. They are still available.
Well, sure.
A GM can ban book content from their games if they feel the desire.
But saying that Tremorsense and Wavesense are universally unavailable post-Remaster because they weren't reprinted in Player Core makes about as much sense as saying that you can't play a Thaumaturge or Magus any more either.
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Normal Familiar abilities can get a very similar benefit
The difference in range really makes a big difference. 30 feet is just next to you, using your Familiar for scouting at that range seems like a death wish (for the Familiar).
I don't see the tactical value of imprecise senses to be as powerful as you seem to for the majority of situations
It's hard to really know the impact of this kind of abilities before actually trying them. I'll see from first hand experience starting tomorrow and be able to tell about it.
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So I'll just say: It's RAW, it's nice and if you think it's too weird just reflavor it for your table. Sometimes, weird unexpected things are good for the game.I'll just say: It needs errata. Otherwise there will be a lot of table variation and hurt feelings when some people try to build a Wilding Steward Witch and expect to be able to use Keen Senses during exploration - only to have the GM ask, 'which hex are you casting and on who?' and then have to try to argue the case that they should be allowed to cast Wilding Word on your allies without causing hostilities.
Is Wilding Word that harmful in Remaster ?
I could just cast it on a nearby tree then.
Also I do not think the GM can force my allies (especially PCs) to start hostilities with my PC.
And alternately, unless it changed in Remaster, I slap my Familiar with my hand and protect it from damage with Phase Familiar, which triggers Keen Senses.
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Is Wilding Word that harmful in Remaster ?
I could just cast it on a nearby tree then.
Also I do not think the GM can force my allies (especially PCs) to start hostilities with my PC.
And alternately, unless it changed in Remaster, I slap my Familiar with my hand and protect it from damage with Phase Familiar, which triggers Keen Senses.
I could also cast Chill Touch on our friendly Skeleton ancestry party member and claim that isn't hostile either. The worst that will happen is they become fleeing for one round.
By RAW the gimmick works. But it is a gimmick. In order for this Wilding Steward familiar ability to be useful it requires either a very specific scenario of combat, or to do bizarre things like casting Wilding Word on your allies or on a tree or on thin air, or slapping your familiar (which would cost you a focus point to use).
I'm calling out bad design. Why are you doubling down and trying to argue that it 'works just fine'? This is clearly worse than any other Patron familiar ability and that includes the one to let your familiar use flanking (that one is at least usable and useful in nearly every combat if you are willing to risk your familiar being adjacent to enemies).
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I don't know if it's completely suitable for an exploration activity. You can easily cast a cantrip Hex every now and then and ask your Familiar what's around but if you are moving, the 60ft range may feel quite short.
On the other hand having a 60ft scan is often what you need to map most of the rooms around yours inside a dungeon. With the walls and doors, the casting of a spell shouldn't be a problem (especially as you can cast the spell in a previous room and then Sustain it when your Familiar perceives if you don't want to make much noise).
And if you find something that looks dangerous but is outside the 60ft range, you can then send your Familiar scouting while you Sustain the spell in the back (there's no range limit on how far your Familiar can be from you when using Keen Senses).
I was responding to Finoan's point about exploration mode. But my point holds just as well for encounter mode; if this is an ability you want to regularly trigger, there are several lessons that give you hexes that don't require an enemy target. I doubt very much that your party's front line melee PC is going to complain if you give them fast healing 2 or +1 to (some) saves as a means to trigger your familiar's keen senses.
I was bouncing on your sentence about Exploration Activities. I fully agree with you, even if I don't think there's any need for extra Hexes as Wilding Word works fine in the air or on your Familiar.
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And again, this all sounds like a kludge to try and fix something that is clearly broken and just needs to be fixed.
Sure. Spend a focus point casting Deceiver's Cloak to deceive no one so that you can get Tremorsense for 1 minute.
Or just pick Tremorsense as a familiar ability that morning.
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And again, this all sounds like a kludge to try and fix something that is clearly broken and just needs to be fixed.
Sure. Spend a focus point casting Deceiver's Cloak to deceive no one so that you can get Tremorsense for 1 minute.
Or just pick Tremorsense as a familiar ability that morning.
I don't really get what you want to achieve. We are all aware that to use the ability we need to use a small shenanigan. You seem to dislike the ability, fine, to each their own. So what?
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I don't really get what you want to achieve. We are all aware that to use the ability we need to use a small shenanigan. You seem to dislike the ability, fine, to each their own. So what?And again, this all sounds like a kludge to try and fix something that is clearly broken and just needs to be fixed.
Sure. Spend a focus point casting Deceiver's Cloak to deceive no one so that you can get Tremorsense for 1 minute.
Or just pick Tremorsense as a familiar ability that morning.
To let everyone who is reading this know to expect pushback or at least strange looks from their GM and the other players at the table when they try it.
If I wasn't arguing the point, someone reading this might get the impression that this was something that is going to be universally accepted without question at every table that they play at. They might build a Wilding Steward character and then feel ambushed when they get to the table and no one likes what they brought and the gimmick that they are trying to use.
At the risk of a slippery slope argument - there is also the case that if the table is willing to allow this shenanigan in order to make the Keen Senses ability work, why not just houserule it so that it works without strange shenanigans?
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At the risk of a slippery slope argument - there is also the case that if the table is willing to allow this shenanigan in order to make the Keen Senses ability work, why not just houserule it so that it works without strange shenanigans?
I fully agree that once a table realizes this is RAW, the best is to just ignore the shenanigan. Still, you need to cast a spell to activate it, it is a limitation (it makes noise, mostly) that shouldn't be handwaved by a houserule (well, you can, but you then buff the ability).
It sounds like you're taking issue with the notion of a sensory power as an encounter mode power altogether. I get that. But if that's not your objection and you think a sensory power in encounter mode is a reasonable ability, then IMO the objection 'but what if there's no enemy I can use to trigger it' isn't valid
Sensory options in encounter mode are fine.
The number of times that I have seen it be needed are few and far between, but when it does come up it is a very valuable benefit. But that limited rate of being useful makes having the ability be a permanent and unchangeable ability less valuable.
Using it in exploration mode is also fine. There are less costly abilities to do that with though.
there are a bunch of hexes you can cast to trigger it which don't require an enemy. No shenanigan is needed; you want to know what sort of thing is around the corner or maybe how many. You cast a hex to give your familiar +1 to saves vs. the suspected enemy (or fast healing 2), this gives your familiar tremorsense 60' or imprecise scent 60', it tells you what it learns. All for 1 action. It's only conditionally useful, but in no way does it require any rules bending or GM interpretation.
No, those ones instead cost resources. You have to spend a focus point to do it.
Granted, you can recharge that focus point. But that requires time. Unless you are using other resources to get it back faster (such as the Familiar Focus ability).
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My objection is simply that it is a kludge. It needs the devs to errata, or the table to houserule - or it is simply going to be inferior to other Patron options.
The vast majority of turn-by-turn encounter time is going to occur with enemies present. And frankly, most of the witch patrons are set up to be used "only in encounter mode, only when an enemy is present." Shroud of Night and Evil Eye work the same way.
But who are you detecting with Keen Senses in encounter mode?
The enemies that everyone already has Observed?
Its usefulness in encounter mode depends on having enemies that are hiding. And that those enemies can be detected using scent, tremorsense, or wavesense.
And yes, mechanically it works fine to cast Wilding Word on your allies to trigger the ability in exploration mode. Narratively that is harder to justify.
I really don't know why you insist on casting Wilding Word on allies...
I really don't know why you insist on casting Wilding Word on allies...
Because of
Targets: 1 creature
Casting it on a mundane tree or a square of space (that you have to deliberately trick yourself into thinking might possibly be occupied by an invisible and undetectable enemy) is as much of a houserule as just letting Keen Senses be turned on for 6 seconds with simply a concentrate action during exploration.
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Casting it on a mundane tree or a square of space (that you have to deliberately trick yourself into thinking might possibly be occupied by an invisible and undetectable enemy) is as much of a houserule as just letting Keen Senses be turned on for 6 seconds with simply a concentrate action during exploration.
"If you choose a target that isn’t valid, such as if you thought a vampire was a living creature and targeted it with a spell that can target only living creatures, your spell fails to target that creature."
So you can target whatever you want. The ability is triggered by casting the spell, not by any actual effect of the spell.
And again it works mechanically, but is really silly to do narratively.