Remastered Witch Patrons


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Yeah, we know that. It's sad but not blocking in any way.


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Finoan wrote:
And again it works mechanically, but is really silly to do narratively.

Sure, but who cares? It's not like Repeat a Spell makes much more sense in general. Casting the same thing over and over every 6 seconds? You're going to have really tired arms for making mystic gestures for hours on end.


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Finoan wrote:
And again it works mechanically, but is really silly to do narratively.

As a side note, there is exactly the same problem during encounters: You want to detect enemies, you'll have to waste a spell. Considering that you don't know where the enemy is at that stage you'll certainly have to cast Wilding Word in the air anyway. So it has more to do with the Wilding Stewart Witch in general than with the use of this ability outside encounters.


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Easl wrote:
Personally, I'd never pick "which witch" based on the perceived superiority or inferiority of their hex cantrip/familiar ability combo.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

I also do feel like I should pause for a moment and mention that I appreciate you and SuperBidi and the others that are arguing the other side of the topic.

Unless and until Wilding Steward gets some developer attention, anyone who does want to play with that Witch patron is going to have to figure out how to make it effective. It is good that you all are here doing quite well at showing what to expect and what arguments are most effective.


SuperBidi wrote:
Finoan wrote:
And again it works mechanically, but is really silly to do narratively.
As a side note, there is exactly the same problem during encounters: You want to detect enemies, you'll have to waste a spell. Considering that you don't know where the enemy is at that stage you'll certainly have to cast Wilding Word in the air anyway. So it has more to do with the Wilding Stewart Witch in general than with the use of this ability outside encounters.

The issue is more that "growling at people" and "your familiar inexplicably gets perception boosts" have no obvious cause and effect, yeah.


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Finoan wrote:
I also do feel like I should pause for a moment and mention that I appreciate you and SuperBidi and the others that are arguing the other side of the topic.

Don't worry, there have been no harsh words, it's just a heated debate like many.


Finoan wrote:
And again it works mechanically, but is really silly to do narratively.

So own it. Use it for inspiration. Make it work narratively for your witch. In fact, make it part of the game narrative. "What's that disturbing growling?" "Oh, that's Bob, he's a nature witch. He growls." [later] "[GM] You approach the dark and foreboding door..." "Hey Bob, give us a good growl!" "GRRRRRR!"


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

With the remaster's more lenient rules on sustaining, I think you can probably walk around sustaining your hex and familiar senses as a basic exploration tactic most of the time in dungeon crawls. Thats a pretty nice radar. And with Share Sense and an increased DC, you might be able to identify something about the monster on scent alone. You may prepare different strategies if you smell putrid flesh rather than sulphur and brimstone.


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I played my Wild Witch yesterday. I used Keen Senses during exploration. I detected a couple of giant insects at some point and we avoided them. It's hard to tell what would have happened if I hadn't detected them but at least I can state that Keen Senses work as intended.

As we gained a level at the end of the session, I took Conceal Spell so I will no more care about the spell manifestations of Wilding Word while I use Keen Senses.

I stick to my early judgment: Keen Senses is really nice, for the security it brings while adventuring and, sometimes, the fights you avoid.


How did you know they were insects you avoided?


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It sounds like it only works as intended if you have a GM that is very lenient on the rules and allows the ability to work regardless of the questions of the ruling.

In addition to casting Wilding Word on what is arguably an invalid target, using it in addition to Conceal Spell means that you are doing a 2 action improvised activity for your exploration. 3 actions since you are also moving.

If you happen to not have a GM that is that lenient, then the results won't be nearly as impressive.


Xenocrat wrote:
How did you know they were insects you avoided?

My Familiar detected something 50 feet away, then we asked if we were seeing something at that spot and the GM allowed us a Perception check.

Finoan wrote:
It sounds like it only works as intended if you have a GM that is very lenient on the rules and allows the ability to work regardless of the questions of the ruling.

The GM plays by RAW, take it or leave it.

Also, even if we agreed with my GM that it was my Exploration Activity, I was using it at specific positions. It was easier for him to determine what my Familiar was finding and it was better for me as I was able to check the important spots.


SuperBidi wrote:
Also, even if we agreed with my GM that it was my Exploration Activity, I was using it at specific positions. It was easier for him to determine what my Familiar was finding and it was better for me as I was able to check the important spots.

That is harder to argue against by RAW.

But this still feels like a gimmick that needs improved with errata rather than a simple following of the rules as presented.

How many players who don't read this forum (or other ones like it) are going to run Wilding Steward and Keen Senses this way? If it is less than 100%, then all of those players are going to see Wilding Steward patron as a seriously sub-par choice.

And for the rest of them, the patron may still be a mildly sub-par choice since the familiar's Keen Senses ability doesn't do much in combat like all of the other ones do.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
How did you know they were insects you avoided?

My Familiar detected something 50 feet away, then we asked if we were seeing something at that spot and the GM allowed us a Perception check.

Uh, you didn't all mutually see each other and have to roll iniative against a moving giant insect 50' away with no wall or other total cover in the way? That's wild.

Sounds like Treasure Vault needed spectacles as an option for some parties. And the gods alone know how these species of insects evolved to survive when they can't spot things 50' away making spellcasting noise and walking around in the open.


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Finoan wrote:
How many players who don't read this forum (or other ones like it) are going to run Wilding Steward and Keen Senses this way?

Hopefully GMs read and familiarize themselves with the "Repeat a Spell" Exploration activity before telling the Wilding witch player that repeating a hex cantrip to trigger their familiar's power is not a RAW exploration activity.


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Easl wrote:
Finoan wrote:
How many players who don't read this forum (or other ones like it) are going to run Wilding Steward and Keen Senses this way?
Hopefully GMs read and familiarize themselves with the "Repeat a Spell" Exploration activity before telling the Wilding witch player that repeating a hex cantrip to trigger their familiar's power is not a RAW exploration activity.

That's not the problem. The problem with the exploration activity is when you want to use the Conceal Spell spellshape feat, cast the spell, move, and command the familiar to sense the area as your activity.

No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies - so you have no target for the spell outside of combat and it can't be used to trigger the Keen Senses ability.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Why are you listing "command the familiar to sense the area" in there? If the familiar senses something, it can Point Out for free, even if this was in an Encounter.


Also, this Keen Senses familiar ability seems to be trying to balance along side the Barbarian's Acute Scent and Nocturnal Sense abilities.

Sensory improvements - but only during combat.

Which is kinda weak for feats and class abilities.


HammerJack wrote:
Why are you listing "command the familiar to sense the area" in there? If the familiar senses something, it can Point Out for free, even if this was in an Encounter.

That's reasonable. But it is also debatable. Still waiting on developer clarification about if familiars can do anything independently during exploration mode.

Also, it is a bit of a moot point, since even without that the improvised activity is still at three actions. SuperBidi also needs to drop the Concealed Casting in order to be down to two. (Or do like they mentioned and not use it as an exploration activity, but as something triggered at specific points on the map).


Broke: The premaster Witch is too weak.
Woke: The remaster Witch is good.
Bespoke: The remaster Witch is too weak.


Finoan wrote:
No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies

(i) the players don't make rules calls like that, the GM does. And hopefully the GM, having read the "repeat a spell" section, will correct any player who says that.

(ii) I am totes fine with the idea of the devs releasing examples of nifty uses of different powers, clarifications of the "yes, it works this way" type, etc. Personally, I'm a huge fan of examples of play taht show rules "in action" because I think they access that storytelling part of our brain which is the way most humans learn intuitively. IOW, that's often a far better way to explain a rule or power than a dry explanation. However, being realistic, those things are probably so far down on their priority list that I think we should reasonably not expect that they are going to happen. As long as mechanically the power works as intended when GMs follow the RAW, we probably cannot expect any further support on the subject.


Easl wrote:
Finoan wrote:
No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies
(i) the players don't make rules calls like that, the GM does. And hopefully the GM, having read the "repeat a spell" section, will correct any player who says that.

It still doesn't feel like you are arguing against the points that I am actually making.

What does the "Repeat a Spell" section have to do with spell casting and targeting restrictions?


Xenocrat wrote:
Uh, you didn't all mutually see each other and have to roll iniative against a moving giant insect 50' away with no wall or other total cover in the way? That's wild.

Wild...

So, the Familiar detected the insects that were waiting for us hidden among some rocks. They actually detected us but were waiting for us to get closer to ambush us. The second we detected them we moved away from them defusing the combat entirely. I can't tell you what would have happened if we didn't detect them but have I been the GM, the PCs would have triggered combat.

Finoan wrote:
No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies - so you have no target for the spell outside of combat and it can't be used to trigger the Keen Senses ability.

You don't have a target in combat either because the whole point of Keen Senses is to detect said target.

So, per RAW, you can use it. If you consider that you need a target to use it then you can't use it at all and then, per RAI, the GM is forced to houserule it. So it works at each and every table.


SuperBidi wrote:
Finoan wrote:
No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies - so you have no target for the spell outside of combat and it can't be used to trigger the Keen Senses ability.
You don't have a target in combat either because the whole point of Keen Senses is to detect said target.

The. Target. Of. Wilding Word.

What creature are you targeting with Wilding Word to cast the spell to trigger Keen Senses.

How many GMs are going to read

Target: 1 creature

and rule that you can't target 'nothing' or 'a random tree'?

How many GMs or players are going to read

Effect: debuff

and say that you shouldn't target your allies?

So how many tables are going to decide that Wilding Word is not a valid Hex to cast outside of casting it on enemies during combat. And therefore - as a side effect of that ruling - Keen Senses can't be triggered outside of combat.


I really don't know why everyone is like cast it on a tree or empty space or a party member. Just cast it on yourself. The downside of it will never come up unless you decide to punch yourself.


MEATSHED wrote:
I really don't know why everyone is like cast it on a tree or empty space or a party member. Just cast it on yourself. The downside of it will never come up unless you decide to punch yourself.

That still feels like a very non-intuitive and strange thing to do. One that many tables and players are not going to think of.

Which feels really bad for one of the class's primary abilities.


Finoan wrote:
MEATSHED wrote:
I really don't know why everyone is like cast it on a tree or empty space or a party member. Just cast it on yourself. The downside of it will never come up unless you decide to punch yourself.

That still feels like a very non-intuitive and strange thing to do. One that many tables and players are not going to think of.

Which feels really bad for one of the class's primary abilities.

This is more me being annoyed at all the cast it on an empty space or a tree or this or that when there is alway a creature in range that you are aware of.


MEATSHED wrote:
This is more me being annoyed at all the cast it on an empty space or a tree or this or that when there is alway a creature in range that you are aware of.

Yeah. It is also a really good workaround. It bypasses the risk of having your party members get upset when you cast a debuff spell on them.

When the inevitable happens and some GM/player comes on to the advice or rules forums asking how to make Wilding Steward Witch and Keen Senses work better, that is probably what I will recommend to them.


Finoan wrote:
Easl wrote:
Finoan wrote:
No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies
(i) the players don't make rules calls like that, the GM does. And hopefully the GM, having read the "repeat a spell" section, will correct any player who says that.

It still doesn't feel like you are arguing against the points that I am actually making.

What does the "Repeat a Spell" section have to do with spell casting and targeting restrictions?

You argue that the players are going to see the targeting line and think they can't use the power in the way Bidi described. Fair enough to say that yes some players may read it that way. I'm saying that part of the GM's role in the game is to be familiar enough with the rules to say "actually, yes you can use it that way" or even "hey guys, as you sit there discussing how to sense things as you travel for the forest, here is something bob the witch could consider doing..." And the GM would get that understanding from reading the repeat a spell section of the encounter mode rules (as well as other places).

Finoan, yesterday you admitted it makes sense mechanically just not narratively. And two hours ago you kinda repeated that agreement when you said it is difficult to argue against Bidi's reading of the RAW. So I have limited myself to discussing fixes to "players think something about spell targeting and how to turn on this patron power which isn't actually true." That fix is "GM explaining to players how things really work." As far as I can tell you have already kinda admitted that the power doesn't need a mechanical fix because you admit that by RAW the Wilding witch's cantrip hex can turn it on in both exploration mode and in encounter mode before enemies are present.

Am I interpreting your position correctly? Are you making a 'it's RAW allowed, just not an obvious use to some players' argument? Or are you making the more formal rules argument that the power cannot be turned on using the Wilding witch's cantrip hex until enemies are present, because the cantrip hex requires an enemy to target?


SuperBidi wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Uh, you didn't all mutually see each other and have to roll iniative against a moving giant insect 50' away with no wall or other total cover in the way? That's wild.

Wild...

So, the Familiar detected the insects that were waiting for us hidden among some rocks. They actually detected us but were waiting for us to get closer to ambush us. The second we detected them we moved away from them defusing the combat entirely. I can't tell you what would have happened if we didn't detect them but have I been the GM, the PCs would have triggered combat.

Looking at every land-based giant insect that could have noticed you to be set for an ambush only two the Giant Stag Beetle and Giant Tick could have reached something 50ft. away with a Stride -> Stride -> Strike or Stride -> Stride -> Grapple and a few could reach the party in a single stride. Your GM was very generous in not at least making your retreat into a chase and I would have run it as a combat.

Quote:

You don't have a target in combat either because the whole point of Keen Senses is to detect said target.

So, per RAW, you can use it. If you consider that you need a target to use it then you can't use it at all and then, per RAI, the GM is forced to houserule it. So it works at each and every table.

So target an enemy you can see and just accept that it might not work against a single hidden target. That also works by RAW.


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Finoan wrote:
The. Target. Of. Wilding Word.

If you use Keen Senses it's because you don't detect the enemy. If you don't detect the enemy what enemy is "The. Target. Of. Wilding Word"?

3-Body Problem wrote:
Looking at every land-based giant insect that could have noticed you to be set for an ambush only two the Giant Stag Beetle and Giant Tick could have reached something 50ft. away with a Stride -> Stride -> Strike or Stride -> Stride -> Grapple and a few could reach the party in a single stride. Your GM was very generous in not at least making your retreat into a chase and I would have run it as a combat.

Ambushes are ideal at a certain range, in general under 50 ft. Using 2 actions to Stride to the enemy entirely negates your advantage. Honestly, how the GM handled the situation made a lot of sense. We detected the enemies just before it made sense to trigger the fight. A few feet closer and we were ambushed for sure.


Easl wrote:
As far as I can tell you have already kinda admitted that the power doesn't need a mechanical fix because you admit that by RAW the Wilding witch's cantrip hex can turn it on in both exploration mode and in encounter mode before enemies are present.

To be clear, yes. I have been convinced that it does work RAW.

It just isn't intuitive.

And it may not be what the writers intended for it, but that is a different problem. Given the Barbarian feats above, at least one person on the dev team considers sensory upgrades that only work in combat to be of reasonably high value.

And the GM isn't inherently any more of a rules expert than any of the other players. Being a rules expert isn't the main requirement of being the GM.


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Anyway, Keen Senses is extremely GM dependent. Tremorsense has 2 points that can be played very differently depending on the GM:
- "the subject is moving along the surface" can be interpreted very differently from a GM who considers that it just means being on the surface to an adversarial GM asking for the enemy to use a move action to be detected.
- "the monster is on the same surface" can also be interpreted differently as there's no real notion of what "the same surface" is.

Similarly, Scent works as long as the GM decides it works. What creatures have a recognizable smell? What is the smell of a Lich?
And the GM can also decide that environmental odors can screw with Scent. After all, how do you detect the smell of a dragon inside its lair which certainly smells like the dragon?

So, in my opinion, talk to your GM is the best way to handle a Wild Witch, even without considering the weird point about how it has to be activated. It's not a character I'd play in PFS, at least not with a random GM.


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SuperBidi wrote:

Anyway, Keen Senses is extremely GM dependent. Tremorsense has 2 points that can be played very differently depending on the GM:

- "the subject is moving along the surface" can be interpreted very differently from a GM who considers that it just means being on the surface to an adversarial GM asking for the enemy to use a move action to be detected.

Only one of these is a possible interpretation and it's not the one you think.


I do agree it’s not intuitive. Funnily, it works perfectly casting it on the familiar because the familiar has near 0 ways to trigger the debuff or even be affected by the debuff.

Narratively, it actually can work. Growl at your familiar to do better.

I also think it’s true the Wilding Steward needs more time in the oven. What SuperBidi experienced is exactly what was intended by James Case and the team when they remastered Wild patron. I also think it was the last to be worked on, which is why it feels so “clunky/unintuitive”, but also why it was a bit more prominent in the Witch blog (most recent on the mind).

I think both SuperBidi and Finoan are BOTH correct in their side: SuperBidi is right that the Wilding Steward Witch is functional and viable. Finoan is absolutely correct that it could’ve been more clean and polished in its remaster. I’m sure we wouldn’t have minded as much (because I bet most players wouldn’t even give the Wilding Steward patrons a second look), if the Resentment wasn’t such a strong patron.

And I can understand that on the forums, we try to argue for balance that DOESN’T require a GM’s involvement, despite that more likely being the default (because we care about a universally good experience for everyone as the baseline).

But I’d like to know from SuperBidi how he built/plays his Wilding Steward Witch and how he felt about it in combat. (Just so I can compare it to mine and my experiences.)


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Xenocrat wrote:
Only one of these is a possible interpretation and it's not the one you think.

If I follow your One True Interpretation, it means that an enemy can beat the crap out of me without triggering Tremorsense, that it can be tripped by the Fighter or Teleport away without triggering it either as none of these are move actions.

It also means that a creature with Tremorsense can only detect the enemies when they move and as such won't detect anything during its turn. Which is funny as some creatures have "Precise" Tremorsense.

And also, it means that if I give Tremorsense to my Familiar with Keen Senses it won't detect anything until an enemy finally decides to move and will then Point Out... the beginning of its move? Or its end, or anywhere in between?

So, as I stated, you need to talk with your GM for Keen Senses to work. Considering that it's supposed to have a similar power level to Ongoing Misery I'm pretty sure a lot of GMs will allow you to make it work without being uselessly nitpicky.

PS: As the place was full of Xulgath, my Familiar was actually using Scent when detecting the insects. Do you have another objection? Maybe giant coackroaches don't smell anything?

Tunu40 wrote:
But I’d like to know from SuperBidi how he built/plays his Wilding Steward Witch and how he felt about it in combat.

My Witch is currently level 4, so I can't tell you for the future. As my GM is rather flexible on Uncommon options, he gave me access to Sudden Bolt. So since level 3 my Witch is a massive damage dealer (I'm used to playing blasters/casters, so the Primal spell list is a boon to me).

Anyway, this is rather off topic, so you can contact me by private message if you want more details (even if I think my build is quite basic).


No, that’s still great information!

I think we’re still on-topic because the topic is Remaster Witch Patrons and the Wilding Steward (and Resentment) are the two hot topics. And I know that Wilding Steward is going to be the least played and thus, the least experienced. Which means it’s not getting the proper research or playtesting.

For example, something I haven’t seen brought up yet: Wilding Steward and the Blinded Condition.

Keen Senses mitigates the Blinded condition on you. If you don’t have the right senses (such as Darkvision or other senses), your familiar can Keen Senses and you can use your (AoE replete) Primal spells to continually blast away. Scatter Scree, Timber, and the humble Spout cantrips are AoEs, not targeted.

Give your familiar Speech and they can Point Out to you all day. Spirit Guide has Speech (if you need an early combat pet), Elemental Wisp has Speech (and can boost the damage of Timber, Spout, or Scatter Scree), and Ceru has Darkvision.

And the reason this is important - in the (possibly rare) situation where you don’t fight any Darkvision enemies (and if there is one, make sure to Wilding Word it first), you can get the effect of a Rank 4 spell at Rank 2 (the Hidden condition without breaking in hostile actions).

I know that other families can grab imprecise sense, but the Wilding Steward can mitigate the effect of Off-Guard the Darkvision enemy would have against you, but I think you’ll also be to Interposing Earth against them too. And there are other spells during this level to mitigate Darkness spells if you need to do other things - Darkvision, Tremor Sense, and Fungal Hyphae are all Rank 2 spells.

With some more digging, in sure we can find more ways that Keen Senses can be weaponized. We just gotta look at the class a whole (like everyone does with Ongoing Misery and Occult spells) to see how we can play it to our favor.

Overall, the Wilding Steward’s theme is “mitigation insurance”, which is probably one of the harder playstyles to work with. Because… you sometimes have to put yourself out there, to ruin it for everyone.

Edit: I know I know. “I could just pick those same familiar abilities or specific familiars too.” or “Just cast Darkvision, it’s the same tier”. But that’s the point, the WS doesn’t have to do that meaning that’s one extra spell slot for something else.


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Tunu40 wrote:
Keen Senses mitigates the Blinded condition on you.

I'm not sure I follow you, but it's your Familiar that gets the benefits from Keen Senses and as such you don't have any improved senses yourself. So it doesn't mitigate the Blinded condition much (remember that hearing is an Imprecise Sense, too, so unless the enemy is not making any noise you should already have some information about its position while Blinded).

And honestly, considering how it's easy to grab Darkvision through your Ancestry or Heritage, I don't think such strategy is interesting.

Tunu40 wrote:
With some more digging, in sure we can find more ways that Keen Senses can be weaponized.

I have hard time seeing how you could do that. But if you find something don't hesitate to share.

Tunu40 wrote:
Overall, the Wilding Steward’s theme is “mitigation insurance”

I consider it a scout, mostly.

Liberty's Edge

Finoan wrote:
No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies - so you have no target for the spell outside of combat and it can't be used to trigger the Keen Senses ability.

You see it being possibly interpreted this way. It does not mean "the general population of players" will.

None of us can speak for this general population.


The Raven Black wrote:
Finoan wrote:
No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies - so you have no target for the spell outside of combat and it can't be used to trigger the Keen Senses ability.

You see it being possibly interpreted this way. It does not mean "the general population of players" will.

None of us can speak for this general population.

Ultimately true. Only time will tell if people generally run with it that way without prompting.

But I have seen the questions that sometimes come through on the rules and advice forums. I don't think it is a stretch to see a spell with 'targets one creature' and 'has detrimental effect' and think that there is going to be a noticeable percentage of people who intuitively see that as being a combat-only spell. I certainly did when I first read it.


Ah sorry, thought I pointed it out.

It’s not you getting the imprecise sense, it’s your familiar being able to use Point Out + Speech. Since Blinded makes everything Undetected to you (visually), your familiar can help mitigate its effects by using its 60ft range and Point Out. And in the case that imprecise hearing might not work in the area you’re in. Which I guess works if you’re in the center of your own Darkness spell (since everything will become Undetected/Hidden to you).

Keen Senses is a fantastic scouting tool. I’m not denying that! I’m just digging around the Primal spell list to see if there’s anymore interactions with these kind of blind spells and Keen Senses/Point Out.

But I’ll keep searching around. It’s just nice to know that it can do that, meaning you can play around with other ancestries/heritages that don’t get Darkvision. I also forgot Primal gets the Darkness spell.

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