Remastered Witch Patrons


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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What do people think of the different witch patrons in the remaster? Are any standing out as notably stronger or weaker than the rest? As mentioned in a prior thread, I would argue that Resentment is a LOT stronger than the rest, but do other people disagree or want to call out other patrons as having interesting abilities?

Here's a link to the remastered witch abilities, courtesy of our very own Ravingdork (pgs. 20-21 of the document)


Resentment and flamekeepers are both good, most of the rest are okay, shadow is hard to use, insribed is kind of just bad. Power level of a lot of them is reliant on how much your GM is willing to hit your pet cat/bird


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Shadow seems quite easy to use when you factor in your hex cantrip. I think hex cantrips and familiar abilities need to be assessed together because you'll usually apply the former to get the latter.


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Check me out. I'm shiny!


MEATSHED wrote:
Resentment and flamekeepers are both good, most of the rest are okay, shadow is hard to use, insribed is kind of just bad. Power level of a lot of them are reliant on how much your GM is willing to hit your pet cat/bird

I keep seeing this sentiment, but it's actually fairly difficult to break the familiar unless you invest nothing into it.


Yes, as a Rune Witch, I have not lost anything. But I also don't feel like I gained much.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Shadow seems quite easy to use when you factor in your hex cantrip. I think hex cantrips and familiar abilities need to be assessed together because you'll usually apply the former to get the latter.

Sure but that still hurts it's usability so then it's kind of locked to just when you are using your hex cantrip, and it requires it to be in melee, meaning that if your GM is willing to attack it, it's pretty easy to flank if you aren't careful.


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Eoran wrote:
Yes, as a Rune Witch, I have not lost anything. But I also don't feel like I gained much.

Are you considering switching Patrons?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MEATSHED wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Shadow seems quite easy to use when you factor in your hex cantrip. I think hex cantrips and familiar abilities need to be assessed together because you'll usually apply the former to get the latter.
Sure but that still hurts it's usability so then it's kind of locked to just when you are using your hex cantrip, and it requires it to be in melee, meaning that if your GM is willing to attack it, it's pretty easy to flank if you aren't careful.

see gesalt's comment about survivability in general. The shadow familiar needs to be closer, but if the enemy is frightened 1 and dazzled you're already sitting on a solid defensive foundation. And independent familiar can then use their action to Hide and gain 50% mischance. The specific shadow familiar is also very appropriate and gains additional defensive benefits.


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Farien wrote:
Are you considering switching Patrons?

Possibly.

There aren't any other options for Arcane tradition.

Faith's Flamekeeper looks quite nice. The 2+half level temporary HP is approximately equivalent to the damage mitigation of Good Champions and Amulet Thaumaturge. But because it is done using temporary HP instead of Resist All it won't multiply its value when mitigating attacks with multiple damage types. With the changes to Bless, and combined with Stoke the Heart, that becomes a significant competition to Inspire Courage.

Resentment also looks quite powerful. Evil Eye now causes Sickened instead of Frightened. Which means that the target will be spending actions in order to remove the condition or dealing with the penalties permanently without further cost from the Witch. Ongoing Misery also looks good with appropriate party synergy.

Silence in Snow has a very powerful Hex Cantrip now. Since it lost the restriction on casting it on the same target, it is a very nice 1 action damage cantrip. Freezing Rime has limited use. And it seems that it would be as much of a hindrance to the rest of the party as it would be to the enemies.

Spinner of Threads also looks like it is quite improved and competitive. Nudge Fate no longer needs to be sustained and it has lost the temporary immunity after the target uses the effect. Balanced Luck penalty to AC would not stack with other common penalties such as Frightened. And its bonus would also not stack with other status bonuses to AC such as Forbidding Ward. Still useful as an option to give those bonuses or penalties though.

Starless Shadow works well enough. As Captain Morgan mentioned, Shroud of Night helps Familiar of Stalking Night to become available more often.

Wilding Steward is still not very good. Wilding Word only protects the Witch. Not even the familiar as well. And Keen Senses can, aside from the free action Point Out, be given permanently for a day with a familiar ability. The combat encounters where a free Point Out action would be useful are not typical or frequent.


Inscribed is in a rough spot, for sure. It's still an awkward, niche ability and you're basically paying a lot to get that arcane spell list.

Meanwhile there's great choices for every other spell list and the gaps between lists are much smaller these days anyways.

Resentment is really good at picking one specific enemy and crippling them, for sure. Spinner of Threads offers constant party support between the two abilities. The single divine patron in Flamekeeper retains its excellent buff hex, and gains another valuable party support effect by handing out HP buffers. And with the divine list having much better cantrips now, it's another great starting point for party support. For primal, the winter patron has an unimpressive familiar ability but the hex is some of the best blasting magic available thanks to the excellent action economy, so this is the obvious choice for doing raw damage.

Wilding Word is the other awkward patron, since it's mostly focused on self-defense. The familiar ability is good, but niche. It's more useful than Inscribed, but it's probably the second weakest patron. (There was a really cool suggestion to make the hex protect any minions you have out, much like the Protect Companion cantrip, which would bump this up significantly by offering obvious routes of specialization into summons or the Beastmaster archetype)

Edit: And yes, Familiar of Balanced Luck doesn't stack with Frightened/Sickened for debuffing, but status bonuses to AC aren't as common I think. Still, it's true it does have issues there - Faith's Flamekeeper has no real conflicts on its support abilities to worry about by comparison (and temp HP stacks nicely with other defensive reactions your party may have to really soak damage)


Eoran wrote:
Farien wrote:
Are you considering switching Patrons?

Possibly.

There aren't any other options for Arcane tradition.

Faith's Flamekeeper looks quite nice. The 2+half level temporary HP is approximately equivalent to the damage mitigation of Good Champions and Amulet Thaumaturge. But because it is done using temporary HP instead of Resist All it won't multiply its value when mitigating attacks with multiple damage types. With the changes to Bless, and combined with Stoke the Heart, that becomes a significant competition to Inspire Courage.

Resentment also looks quite powerful. Evil Eye now causes Sickened instead of Frightened. Which means that the target will be spending actions in order to remove the condition or dealing with the penalties permanently without further cost from the Witch. Ongoing Misery also looks good with appropriate party synergy.

Silence in Snow has a very powerful Hex Cantrip now. Since it lost the restriction on casting it on the same target, it is a very nice 1 action damage cantrip. Freezing Rime has limited use. And it seems that it would be as much of a hindrance to the rest of the party as it would be to the enemies.

Spinner of Threads also looks like it is quite improved and competitive. Nudge Fate no longer needs to be sustained and it has lost the temporary immunity after the target uses the effect. Balanced Luck penalty to AC would not stack with other common penalties such as Frightened. And its bonus would also not stack with other status bonuses to AC such as Forbidding Ward. Still useful as an option to give those bonuses or penalties though.

Starless Shadow works well enough. As Captain Morgan mentioned, Shroud of Night helps Familiar of Stalking Night to become available more often.

Wilding Steward is still not very good. Wilding Word only protects the Witch. Not even the familiar as well. And Keen Senses can, aside from the free action Point Out, be given permanently for a day with a familiar ability. The combat encounters where a free...

Don't forget that you do still get Stitch Familiar and Ceremonial Knife even as an Inscribed witch. Not getting much from patron, though...


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Calliope5431 wrote:
Don't forget that you do still get Stitch Familiar and Ceremonial Knife even as an Inscribed witch. Not getting much from patron, though...

I am only level 7, so Stitched Familiar is not available yet. Ceremonial Knife is interesting, but I would have to give up either my Alchemist archetype or one of my Lesson Hexes in order to get it. One or two rank 1 spell casts of a spell chosen at the start of the day may not be enough value for that opportunity cost.


Yeah, Ceremonial Knife is a toss-up. It's a clearly useful feat, because it's 2 extra slots for utility/buffs/debuffs a day (overcharge casts the spell for sure, it's just a tossup if the dagger survives... and you don't actually care about that). But there's absolutely other options you can take there.

I'm not sure I can bring myself to ever skip the familiar attack feats, especially the occult/divine one. Spend 1 action to command familiar to deal significant damage and also heal an ally is hard to beat.


Dubious Scholar wrote:

Yeah, Ceremonial Knife is a toss-up. It's a clearly useful feat, because it's 2 extra slots for utility/buffs/debuffs a day (overcharge casts the spell for sure, it's just a tossup if the dagger survives... and you don't actually care about that). But there's absolutely other options you can take there.

I'm not sure I can bring myself to ever skip the familiar attack feats, especially the occult/divine one. Spend 1 action to command familiar to deal significant damage and also heal an ally is hard to beat.

Yeah especially with the Independent familiar ability...you don't even have to waste actions maneuvering it into position the previous round before you drop your bomb.

Eoran wrote:


I am only level 7, so Stitched Familiar is not available yet. Ceremonial Knife is interesting, but I would have to give up either my Alchemist archetype or one of my Lesson Hexes in order to get it. One or two rank 1 spell casts of a spell chosen at the start of the day may not be enough value for that opportunity cost.

Very fair, yep. I do think inscribed could use some buffs. It's probably the saddest of the patrons.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Inscribed One is pretty useful if have a mono melee party composition, or even just an odd number of PCs who want flanking. There are spells that can provide it but those cost actions and slots that the familiar ability does not. The tiny size also means it can get through enemy spaces without needing to Tumble. Still not incredibly exciting, and heavily dependent on party composition. Doesn't help that Discern Secrets is also a niche option you won't be casting every turn to gain your flanking. Although oddly enough my own Rune Witch is in Strength of Thousands, which is the perfect campaign for the cantrip and has the perfect party for the familiar ability.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Doesn't help that Discern Secrets is also a niche option you won't be casting every turn to gain your flanking.

It is certainly not the most powerful of the Hex Cantrips. It also remains the only one that must be sustained or the target becomes immune.

With the improved guidelines of Recall Knowledge, the spell at least becomes more reliable in its value.

It also has value in combat against enemies that are invisible or hide. But as I mentioned regarding the free Point Out action and improved senses of Wilding Steward familiar abilities, those types of combats are not typical or frequent.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah I wonder if they intended to leave that immunity in there.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Yeah I wonder if they intended to leave that immunity in there.

I somehow doubt it.

I'd say that in combat Discern Secrets (Inscribed patron) and Wilding Word (Wilding Steward) are easily the worst of the hex cantrips, with the worst familiar abilities being Flowing Script (Inscribed again), Keen Senses (Wilding again), and Freezing Rime (Silence Under Snow).

Inscribed and Wilding Steward just don't have great class features.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Honestly, I think people are underrating Keen Senses. The kind of cases where it would be really handy have been pretty common in my play experience. It isn't as constantly useful as some others, but it's really good for fairly common, impactful problems.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Yeah I wonder if they intended to leave that immunity in there.

Its there because there isn't a reason to sustain it if there wasn't, as casting it on someone gives them a free recall knowledge. I think it would be fine if they just got a recall every round but that is the only reason I can see.


MEATSHED wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Yeah I wonder if they intended to leave that immunity in there.
Its there because there isn't a reason to sustain it if there wasn't, as casting it on someone gives them a free recall knowledge. I think it would be fine if they just got a recall every round but that is the only reason I can see.

That free action to seek or recall knowledge is part of the spell effect. Why would that not happen when the spell is sustained?


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HammerJack wrote:
Honestly, I think people are underrating Keen Senses. The kind of cases where it would be really handy have been pretty common in my play experience. It isn't as constantly useful as some others, but it's really good for fairly common, impactful problems.

So why not simply give your familiar tremorsense, scent, or wavesense as one of their abilities that day?

Keen Senses is still taking up a familiar ability slot - it is just doing it permanently. And requires casting a Hex in order to activate.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Also a good use of a familiar ability, but 60ft instead of 30 is significant.


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Eoran wrote:
MEATSHED wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Yeah I wonder if they intended to leave that immunity in there.
Its there because there isn't a reason to sustain it if there wasn't, as casting it on someone gives them a free recall knowledge. I think it would be fine if they just got a recall every round but that is the only reason I can see.
That free action to seek or recall knowledge is part of the spell effect. Why would that not happen when the spell is sustained?

Sustaining a spell just lengthens the duration, it doesn't cause the spell to happen again. Sustaining blood ward doesn't let you swap the creature type it applies to for example (but sustaining storm lord does let you swap the weather because that is specifically mentioned as something you can do when sustaining it)


MEATSHED wrote:
Eoran wrote:
That free action to seek or recall knowledge is part of the spell effect. Why would that not happen when the spell is sustained?
Sustaining a spell just lengthens the duration, it doesn't cause the spell to happen again. Sustaining blood ward doesn't let you swap the creature type it applies to for example (but sustaining storm lord does let you swap the weather because that is specifically mentioned as something you can do when sustaining it)

Ah. My apologies. There is a noticeable difference from the previous version of Discern Secrets.

Previously, the Seek, Sense Motive, or Recall Knowledge action was done as the spell was cast.

The new version simply gives the target the ability to use Seek, Sense Motive, or Recall Knowledge as a free action. So it does not happen on my turn when I cast the spell. It happens on their turn when they decide to use a free action to do any or all of those actions as many times as they desire up to the limits of Free Action usage.

And that ability granted by the spell effect would continue for the duration of the spell.

Which still doesn't answer the question of why the target becomes immune to the spell once it ends.


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I'll play devil's advocate for Inscribed One.

It's the melee witch patron! Make your familiar tough and independent to manuever, get Witch's Armaments and Sympathetic Strike, Needle of Vengeance/Curse of Death them with a penalty to their save, their downfall is ensured!

Or use it as a flanker for an ally, skip the dumb Witch's Armaments, you can still use the obvious familiar abilities and Life Boost to keep it/your ally alive, maybe toss in a Needle of Vengeance for extra support if you want. You're soaking up actions (if it does attack your familiar) and helping your ally with encounter resources, and sitting on big arcane slots when needed.

I do think that arcane list has some extra synergy with the witch class universal basic features, given you can pick up your big lack of healing via lesson and combo things like Elemental Betrayal that are less useful to Occult and Divine. It's not unreasonable that the more limited (if more thematic) spell lists get more patron/list specific goodies in return.

As for Discern Secrets, I can see why they might want to keep some limits on your ability to gift one (later two for one) action to your party. Recall Knowledge gifted to a Mastermind Rogue or Knowledge is Power Wizard (well, ok, they need a crit) can feed their own power quite a bit.


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Farien wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
Honestly, I think people are underrating Keen Senses. The kind of cases where it would be really handy have been pretty common in my play experience. It isn't as constantly useful as some others, but it's really good for fairly common, impactful problems.

So why not simply give your familiar tremorsense, scent, or wavesense as one of their abilities that day?

Keen Senses is still taking up a familiar ability slot - it is just doing it permanently. And requires casting a Hex in order to activate.

Because you want other familiar or masterabilities instead? The flipside of any argument of "x is like y, and I can get y elsewhere" is "you don't have to get y elsewhere, and can now get z, instead."


Perpdepog wrote:
Farien wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
Honestly, I think people are underrating Keen Senses. The kind of cases where it would be really handy have been pretty common in my play experience. It isn't as constantly useful as some others, but it's really good for fairly common, impactful problems.

So why not simply give your familiar tremorsense, scent, or wavesense as one of their abilities that day?

Keen Senses is still taking up a familiar ability slot - it is just doing it permanently. And requires casting a Hex in order to activate.

Because you want other familiar or masterabilities instead? The flipside of any argument of "x is like y, and I can get y elsewhere" is "you don't have to get y elsewhere, and can now get z, instead."

True... but things like Ongoing Misery or Faith temporary hp aren't available for the low price of a class feat. So they're probably going to be higher priority than senses you can get from one.

Familiar master is relatively cheap


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Perpdepog wrote:
Farien wrote:

So why not simply give your familiar tremorsense, scent, or wavesense as one of their abilities that day?

Keen Senses is still taking up a familiar ability slot - it is just doing it permanently. And requires casting a Hex in order to activate.

Because you want other familiar or masterabilities instead? The flipside of any argument of "x is like y, and I can get y elsewhere" is "you don't have to get y elsewhere, and can now get z, instead."

Flipping it back, it is easier to get both z and y if you aren't locked into getting x.

And that is making my head spin trying to think about. Putting that back into concrete abilities...

It is easier to get some other familiar ability if tremorsense or scent isn't needed if tremorsense or scent is being given by a standard familiar ability instead of the special unchangeable one. The unchangeable ability needs to be useful in most situations in order to be considered high value.


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Farien wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
Farien wrote:

So why not simply give your familiar tremorsense, scent, or wavesense as one of their abilities that day?

Keen Senses is still taking up a familiar ability slot - it is just doing it permanently. And requires casting a Hex in order to activate.

Because you want other familiar or masterabilities instead? The flipside of any argument of "x is like y, and I can get y elsewhere" is "you don't have to get y elsewhere, and can now get z, instead."

Flipping it back, it is easier to get both z and y if you aren't locked into getting x.

And that is making my head spin trying to think about. Putting that back into concrete abilities...

It is easier to get some other familiar ability if tremorsense or scent isn't needed if tremorsense or scent is being given by a standard familiar ability instead of the special unchangeable one. The unchangeable ability needs to be useful in most situations in order to be considered high value.

I mean, yeah, but I would figure that, if you're picking the Wild patron then you'd be valuing the sense-based abilities, or at least not minding that you've got them as your cantrip. Elsewise you'd pick a different patron.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Inscribed One is pretty useful if have a mono melee party composition, or even just an odd number of PCs who want flanking. There are spells that can provide it but those cost actions and slots that the familiar ability does not. The tiny size also means it can get through enemy spaces without needing to Tumble. Still not incredibly exciting, and heavily dependent on party composition. Doesn't help that Discern Secrets is also a niche option you won't be casting every turn to gain your flanking. Although oddly enough my own Rune Witch is in Strength of Thousands, which is the perfect campaign for the cantrip and has the perfect party for the familiar ability.

As an example, a party with two martials and a warpriest/ melee druid/ battle oracle/ battle muse bard/ melee animist when that drops would probably appreciate having an inscribed one familiar in the party


Perpdepog wrote:
I mean, yeah, but I would figure that, if you're picking the Wild patron then you'd be valuing the sense-based abilities, or at least not minding that you've got them as your cantrip. Elsewise you'd pick a different patron.

For this thread, the point is that being locked in on Keen Senses isn't a big selling point of Wilding Steward patron.

No, the ability isn't terrible. It has its uses. But it is one of the weakest Patron-granted familiar abilities since it can be replicated by standard familiar abilities.


Night and Flamekeeper look great (divine was already good, so no surprises here). Resentment is too strong once you get Slow.

I'm honestly surprised people thinking familiars are that easy to kill. I've used a witch familiar as a meat shield before with Unexpected Transposition (no real animals were hurt during this activity, the familiar was the vessel of a really annoying devil). A familiar can take 2 or 3 hits from +1 or +2 enemies most of the time before going down if it has the ability that increases HP, you get access to life link if keeping it around is needed and most important of all, aren't you winning if the enemy is focus firing the familiar anyway?

For the 3 I mentioned in specific:

- Night imposes Frightened and concealment. Most of the time enemies will need to move in in order to hit it (15 range and independent makes spacing easy). 2 actions, familiar is concealed and enemy is frightened 1. Yeah, if the familiar is swarmed by a few enemies it will go down easily since you the concealment is single target, but if the enemies are grouping together to gang up on your familiar, they will all be in range for your AoE spells, so it is not even that bad.

- Resentment Imposes sickened and Slowed 1 with a Slow Spell on the boss type creature. It is at 15 ft. If the enemy needs to stride to get there, that's only 1 action. If the enemy gets tripped, it cannot reach it and attack period. If there are a lot of enemies that could swarm your familiar and kill it, you can just ignore your familiar since enemies will be way more prone to failing saves anyway.

- Divine has arguably the best hex and the familiar just needs to be close to one of your allies, so keeping it safe should be quite easy. Both synergize a bit too since keeping your hex cantrip target alive is a good way of doing more damage with the spell, I'd say.

No idea about the others since I haven't had the time to check them thoroughly, but there are probably some shenanigans you can do with all of them.


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Night has to be adjacent, not 15’, to impose Frightened 1. No move to reach it.


Missed that somehow, that changes things.

Cantrip is still good since there are only a handful of enemies with greater darkvision, but the familiar power leaves a bit to be desired tbh.


Familiars are fairly easy to kill when heavy duty AoE comes into play and early level. Not so much in the mid levels unless crit fail AoE or get focus hammered. An enemy focusing on your familiar is pretty rare.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
roquepo wrote:

Missed that somehow, that changes things.

Cantrip is still good since there are only a handful of enemies with greater darkvision, but the familiar power leaves a bit to be desired tbh.

Disagree here. It is one of the only powers that can affect multiple enemies at a time. And if the familiar is concealed it can use it's actions to hide and sneak, and it should always have an action with independent. With a 20% or 50% mischance or just being undetected you've got a great defense.

Shroud of Night is the sort of ability you can build whole parties around. A sniper, dread striker rogue, and monk would all love it as a team mate. The whole party being able to hide whenever and whereever gives you a lot of power to dictate who the enemy can even target. Ongoing Misery is another such ability.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
roquepo wrote:

Missed that somehow, that changes things.

Cantrip is still good since there are only a handful of enemies with greater darkvision, but the familiar power leaves a bit to be desired tbh.

Disagree here. It is one of the only powers that can affect multiple enemies at a time. And if the familiar is concealed it can use it's actions to hide and sneak, and it should always have an action with independent. With a 20% or 50% mischance or just being undetected you've got a great defense.

Shroud of Night is the sort of ability you can build whole parties around. A sniper, dread striker rogue, and monk would all love it as a team mate. The whole party being able to hide whenever and whereever gives you a lot of power to dictate who the enemy can even target. Ongoing Misery is another such ability.

Rather the opposite, it is quite hard to affect several creatures with a 5ft emanation. Remember pre-remaster bane/bless? Enemies would need to surround your familiar for it to affect several creatures and as I said early enemies focusing the familiar is a bad strategy for them. Enemies being side by side is also rare due to how flanking works (unless the map is really small and has choke points). Sure, concealed and frightened 1 are solid defenses, but enemies can do a lot with 3 whole actions and worst of all, 5ft range means that you will need to move a lot more, making Independent -> Hide a lot worse. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Starless Night is weak, but most of its power comes from the hex and not the familiar ability.


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Lol, ya, that was my suggestion for Wilding Word to apply to minions (maybe just the Crit/Failure?). I feel like I’m being greedy with it but at the same time…it would be nice!

But I’m just gonna chime in on Wilding Steward because I was the guy that made the thread s++!ting on it back around PaizoCon. (I didn’t just say overhaul, I said it needed to be put behind the barn and shot. Apparently, I was very wrong and it’s not as bad).

I find Wilding Steward really really weird because for a “niche” patron, it’s satisfyingly fine outside its niche and incredibly nice during those niche. It’s one of the patrons that can support alternate stats such as a STR/DEX Witch instead of a DEX/INT witch who chooses healing/summoning/utility rather than Primal’s typical blasting (and instead commits to Success expectations). The nice thing about PF2e is that a character is a sum of its parts and the Wilding Steward does work I stepped back and looked at all the things it can use.

I agree it’s not the most powerful, but I’ve definite found it *intriguing* and thus fun! But I think the Patron gifts only work…because it gets the Primal spell list.

I’ve been finding fun because those utilities work out nicely with a Primal caster. Familiar of Keen Senses Point Out works out due to Primal being filled with AoE spells. Having access to Scatter Scree and Spout. Additionally, since your familiar has a default detector/scout ability, you can customize it however you want and it will ALWAYS be ready as a scout. So swapping it to an Elemental Wisp, for example. It feels like the most free/flexible for specific familiars since its scout ability is always available.

And Wilding Word. I find it a fine hex because it’s multipurpose. It’s both a defensive and debuff hex. But why does Primal work well with it? Interposing Earth. You can more easily handle the single baddy who has Reach + Reactive Strike than other 6HP casters. Those other casters, they just don’t have the total AC to be that safe. Wilding Word + Interposing Earth can force the RS to strike at a -4, essentially almost a 1st MAP RS against you. It was actually a reason I felt pretty comfortable triggering AoO on the Wilding Steward. (Being an Orc with Orc Ferocity also helps). And, Primal doesn’t struggle against multiple weak enemies. It’s a blasting spell tradition. You can hex the “stronger” enemy, save Interposing Earth for dealing with “flanking enemies”. And if you know s&#$ will hit the fan, you like have the Tailwind buff to high tail it out of there, or instead, bunk down with the Raise Shield+Wilding Word.

Another reason is that Interposing Earth gives Standard Cover, meaning you can Hide and then Sneak. Which, the STR/DEX Witch should be able to Stealth check better.

And in the Beginner Box, the very first encounters, the Wilding Steward would’ve absolutely felt valuable. Familiar of Keen Senses will do a great job picking up enemy groups early. Wilding Word works well standing with a martial at a chokepoint. There’s a big enemy right after the first pack which makes Wilding Word useful, especially if you’re gonna go in a Gouging Claw/Ignition. Rousing Splash/Glass Shield/Positive Attunement (and Vital Beacon layer on) can help mitigate being a 6HP caster. Glass Shield, Shattering Gem can do some porcupining. And some heritages + Oaken Resilience can help with resistances.

I don’t think it’s a super strong combat-wise like Resentment, but in actual play - I’ve found it strong against those annoying enemies while thinking back to my other experiences - it performs well in more roleplaying stuff. And being a Primal spellcaster, it has versatile “spell builds” to choose from that supports your playstyle. I think there are a lot of incredible unconventional directions you can go with this patron - the Packmaster, the Grappler, the Combat Healer (Cleric), and Durable Caster (Druid), the Combat Familiar, etc..

I think it’s a solid 8/10 patron amongst other patrons that are probably 9/10 to 11/10. It’s also not the easiest because it relies more on system mastery. I don’t think it’s “shiny” like most other patrons and I do believe it will never be popular (because it’s more niche and derivative from typical casters). But it does function very well with some internal synergies. And it’s absolutely so much better than Premaster Wild Patron.


We know that Paizo doesn't strive for perfect balance because that's impossible. They just want class options to be within a reasonable bound.

What is the difference in power between a Rune Witch and a Resentment Witch compared to say a Superstition and Dragon Barbarian?


Overall, slightly disappointed with Remastered Patrons basically just being an added familiar ability, 2-3 lines of flavor text, and making more hexes usable (which is appreciated, but not very exciting). Also still identical for multiclass Witches who won't recognize more than 4 Patrons existing.

Resentment is the clear winner for upgraded patrons. A lot of people have focused on the familiar ability - but I'd also add that evil eye got a big upgrade by inflicting sickened now instead of frightened, making it effective against a much larger variety of enemies, preventing potion/elixir use for intelligent enemies, and forcing the enemy to use actions to get rid of the condition. And of course the familiar ability is powerful to the point that any intelligent BBEG should be ordering their minions to merc the pet before it has a chance to reach the boss room.

Faith's Flamekeeper is rather nice simply because the familiar ability is a buff for an ally - meaning your familiar can be hiding behind the martial to support instead of painting a target on themselves. Also lets you buff multiple allies simultaneously or from outside your normal range if your familiar is hanging out in another PC's backpack.

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Inscribed One(Rune) is just bad. Still gives Magic Weapon as a spell, which stops working after a few levels. While the spell got renamed/buffed with heighten effects, it lags behind expected items/levels (especially if your group runs ABP). Familiar ability is bad, especially compared to other patrons and requiring the familiar to be in slapping range. Hex Cantrip is not amazing. Overall seems very lacking compared to others.

Shadow/Wild: Major improvements in making their hex cantrips usable, but just being usable doesn't mean particularly impressive. Familiar abilities are fairly lacking. Shadow's familiar ability has too many restrictions to get an inferior evil eye. Wild's familiar ability is very niche and worthless in 90% of encounters. Overall hard to justify picking these over others.


I play a Wilding Steward Witch in Sky King's Tomb, I expect a lot of the familiar ability (I will start playing it with the remaster abilities tomorrow). 60 feet is the minimum range to use it for scouting, 30 feet is not enough to detect anything before it can attack you.

I think a good scout able to spot enemies before encounters is extremely useful. It leaves space for buffs and prevents most ambushes. But it's mostly a dungeon oriented Patron, if you play a city adventure or one where encounters happen in vast areas, it's less interesting.

I also tend to dislike the Occult spell list, but that's more of a personal take than a general one.


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SuperBidi wrote:

I play a Wilding Steward Witch in Sky King's Tomb, I expect a lot of the familiar ability (I will start playing it with the remaster abilities tomorrow). 60 feet is the minimum range to use it for scouting, 30 feet is not enough to detect anything before it can attack you.

I think a good scout able to spot enemies before encounters is extremely useful.

You do remember that Familiar of Keen Senses is only active when the Witch casts or sustains a Hex and only lasts until the start of your next turn. Right?

What Hex are you casting before encountering anything?


Finoan wrote:

You do remember that Familiar of Keen Senses is only active when the Witch casts or sustains a Hex and only lasts until the start of your next turn. Right?

What Hex are you casting before encountering anything?

Wilding Word. I don't even need a target, I just need to cast it.

I agree that it's weird but senses are as much of an Exploration asset than a combat one.


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"Targets 1 creature" Seems to say you need some form of target.

I suppose you can keep aggressively growling at your teammates, but if you are constantly growling & creating spell manifestations in order to gain senses/point out - I'd see it reasonable that any potential enemies are instantly aware of you and starting combat anyway.


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Charon Onozuka wrote:
"Targets 1 creature" Seems to say you need some form of target.

You can always target the air (because there could be an Invisible creature here).

Charon Onozuka wrote:
I suppose you can keep aggressively growling at your teammates, but if you are constantly growling & creating spell manifestations in order to gain senses/point out

There are definitely spell manifestations. About growling, I don't see the need (my Familiar has Speech, so it can just tell me what it gets).

Charon Onozuka wrote:
I'd see it reasonable that any potential enemies are instantly aware of you and starting combat anyway.

It has a 60ft. range and can sense through walls. So, not all enemies will know about us (and anyway, unless the whole party is using Avoid Notice, enemies know about the party quite often). Also, the main goal is to detect ambushes, and ambushers will wait until you are in the right position. The fact that you cast a spell won't really trigger the encounter and even if it does the ambush is then triggered too far away to be dangerous.

Also, for Scent, you can just position yourself upwind and you are now detecting at 120 feet, which starts to be a lot.

Anyway, let's be clear, if the GM wants to disrupt the ability it's in their power. I agree it's GM dependent. Now, considering that for a Wild Witch it's your main ability beyond being a 3-slot caster I think the GM should actually allow the ability to be as good as it should be. Other classes have Fonts or Bardic Compositions as their main ability so I don't think there's an issue with the Wild Witch being a super scout.


SuperBidi wrote:
Finoan wrote:

You do remember that Familiar of Keen Senses is only active when the Witch casts or sustains a Hex and only lasts until the start of your next turn. Right?

What Hex are you casting before encountering anything?

Wilding Word. I don't even need a target, I just need to cast it.

I agree that it's weird but senses are as much of an Exploration asset than a combat one.

*Shrugs* There are people jumping up and down on a different thread that I am wrong in saying that Discern Secrets works exactly the way that it literally says that it works. So I don't expect the idea that you can ignore or loophole away the targeting line of Wilding Word to get much traction here either.


Finoan wrote:
*Shrugs* There are people jumping up and down on a different thread that I am wrong in saying that Discern Secrets works exactly the way that it literally says that it works. So I don't expect the idea that you can ignore or loophole away the targeting line of Wilding Word to get much traction here either.

You can always cast Wilding Word on your Familiar or whatever if the GM really insist in having a target.

I fully agree that it's weird to use it that way and that's strange there isn't a more obvious way of using your Familiar powers but it works and I hardly see how the GM could prevent it.

Also: People say Wilding Stewart is weak and next they say the GM should somehow prevent using it...

The discussion about Discern Secrets is very different as it looks like a mistake in the way the ability is written.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Charon Onozuka wrote:
"Targets 1 creature" Seems to say you need some form of target.
You can always target the air (because there could be an Invisible creature here).

Personally, I wouldn't allow targeting hypothetical invisible enemies as a means to get around the targeting rules by repeatedly casting at the air. You can get around this by repeatedly targeting a teammate, but I think they should be allowed to feel a bit offended by it. ("Why do you keep growling at me??")

SuperBidi wrote:
Charon Onozuka wrote:
I suppose you can keep aggressively growling at your teammates, but if you are constantly growling & creating spell manifestations in order to gain senses/point out
There are definitely spell manifestations. About growling, I don't see the need (my Familiar has Speech, so it can just tell me what it gets).

Wilding Word: "Your patron’s majesty—or their displeasure—comes in a growl from your throat, making other creatures reluctant to harm you..."

Sure it's flavor text and many GMs allow re-flavoring - but I'd argue there is certainly noise here. [Flavor is part of the fun after all.]

SuperBidi wrote:
Charon Onozuka wrote:
I'd see it reasonable that any potential enemies are instantly aware of you and starting combat anyway.

It has a 60ft. range and can sense through walls. So, not all enemies will know about us (and anyway, unless the whole party is using Avoid Notice, enemies know about the party quite often). Also, the main goal is to detect ambushes, and ambushers will wait until you are in the right position. The fact that you cast a spell won't really trigger the encounter and even if it does the ambush is then triggered too far away to be dangerous.

Also, for Scent, you can just position yourself upwind and you are now detecting at 120 feet, which starts to be a lot.

Anyway, let's be clear, if the GM wants to disrupt the ability it's in their power. I agree it's GM dependent. Now, considering that for a Wild Witch it's your main ability beyond being a 3-slot caster I think the GM should actually allow the ability to be as good as it should be. Other classes have Fonts or Bardic Compositions as their main ability so I don't think there's an issue with the Wild Witch being a super scout.

Yup, you'll start the occasional ambush early. Personally, I don't see ambushes actually occur as often as many assume, but there is that use. Compared to nearly every other familiar ability however, this is incredibly niche and will often be replaceable by normal familiar abilities.

Abilities the rely of the GM bending over backwards to be good (i.e. you just happen to constantly be upwind for scent range increase; or giving an imprecise sense more info than it should get) typically aren't good. Same reason I don't see the argument that the GM should be interpreting your abilities differently because the rest of your framework is sub-par.

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