You know what else is definitely and irrefutably visible (well, most of the time)? A character that tries to be stealthy. And stealth still works for them! It's a miracle! Well, no, it works because the rules say that stealth works even for visible characters.And the Invisible condition doesn’t even give a bonus to Stealth, while the Skill Junction for Air does. So, assuming access to cover or concealment. A visible Air Kineticist with their aura up might be better at stealth than that same Kineticist Invisible, but with their aura down.
The difference here is one of degree, not kind.
Yes, but you can't have a degree of an outcome when you outright disallow the outcome.
The aura making it easier to stealth can have multiple narrative exlanations, from the sound getting muffled/carried away by the aura, to hot air mirages playing tricks to enemies eyes.
But when you start the dialog with "you cannot hide with the aura active" then that defeats the whole purpose of being even better to hide with the aura active.
I don't recall reading a direct/absolute claim that "you cannot hide with the aura active"
That's not at all the same as saying that Stealth attempts would be negatively affected, or contextually impossible to succeed.
That's the entire idea behind "Special Circumstances"
Like, sure the earth aura of swirling dirt that's creating difficult terrain does not emit light, but it certainly will make you easier to spot, even at a great distance.
And yeah, a GM might outright say that a fire aura that has been previously described as casting some light *does* outright make visual stealth attempts impossible while it's glowing in the dark. Or if just about any aura touches the foe one's attempting to Sneak past.
That kind of "everything's allowed except what the rules say I can't do" attitude is NOT welcome at many tables.
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If the players engage in good faith around circumstantial/unwritten mechanical effects, the GM will try to reciprocate that. One example was of our party w/ Desert Wind Kineticist VS puffballs.
RaW concealment is a visual thing, and the puffballs had air motion sense, not eyes. Because the player wasn't trying to powergame when he called for a concealment check, the GM just paused for a beat or two and said "Yeah, I'll say their sense is based on airborne spores, and all that swirling sand would mess with their sporesense enough to qualify for concealment." and rolled with it.
If that Kineticist was the sort of player that attempted a Stealth check, and when the GM said "your Aura's up" as a reminder poke, and they argued something hard-lined like ~"the RaW doesn't say it effects Stealth" instead of asking more and negotiating a -1 or -2 if they really wanted to keep the elements floating, that does *not* encourage GM leniency when it can "make sense" to mechanically benefit the player.
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Now that I think about it, this is reminding me of that time some players were in disbelief at the notion that a magical familiar casting curses and hexing foes would
1, be noticed as harming/ participating in the fight, and
2, that some monster or person would attempt to pancake the familiar in response.
As if there's some veil of stupidity cast upon everything because (how dare they?) or (but i need them to play!)
Like, the Witch gets to keep their loaded spells, and literally get the familiar back the next day. It's a *great* mechanic/system with some real, but completely temporary, consequence to it.
You know what else isn't called out as explicitly visible? A longsword. No part of their description indicates that they can be seen, felt, or heard. You know about how long they are, that they have one or two edges, and that they are swords.
At the end of the day, things are noticeable or not in-fiction based on what the group decides. Some things don't need any discussion, like a fireball (hopefully), and others apparently do, like an open kinetic gate.
Such a great reasoning and examples! Actually, I have one more.
You know what else is definitely and irrefutably visible (well, most of the time)? A character that tries to be stealthy. And stealth still works for them! It's a miracle! Well, no, it works because the rules say that stealth works even for visible characters. Even when they have visible spell effects active on them. Even when they are alight as a Christmas tree with numerous wondrous magical items. Even when they have an arsenal of fire weapons on them. And that's all because stealth rules don't consider these interactions. And also if some GM would try to restrict Stealth because of them, they would be a terrible GM for this game. This game is not about tracking such level of details.
You know what else doesn't have any Stealth restrictions in the rules? You guessed that, I believe. It's kineticist's auras. And that's it. There's nothing else to discuss. Kineticist's auras don't cancel stealth because the rules don't say they do.
Then you could have fun inventing in-game reasons why this works. This I personally recommend. Use your imagination! Or just let this go, it's also ok.
No, stealth doesn't work for visible characters. It requires cover or concealment to hide and sneak. So if you have clearly visible spell effects, you would breach the cover or concealment rules for Stealth and become observed. Same as if using a clearly visible kinetic aura.
So you don't even know the Stealth rules?
This is exactly why the Stealth rules were written in an open fashion because it is very much up to the GM to determine if you have breached the cover or concealment necessary to use Hide or Sneak actions and how visible you are to the targets you are attempting to use Stealth against.
No wonder you are making the arguments you are making when you didn't even review the Stealth rules.
Please go read the Stealth rules. That will help you better understand why some GMs believe an active Kinetic Aura may disrupt the cover or concealment necessary to use Hide and Sneak Actions.
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I believe everyone here understands the Stealth rules just fine. Insofar as I can tell, the only thing in contention is how people choose to describe the effects of the kinetic aura, and any ramifications that might result from said description.
If you describe it one way, everything works out fine. If you insist on describing it another way, problems can arise.
This is not a matter of understanding game rules, but rather of conflicting play styles.
And one group telling another group how they should play the game is not really a cool thing to be doing.
Please stop talking down to others. It's against the code of conduct here.
I believe everyone here understands the Stealth rules just fine. Insofar as I can tell, the only thing in contention is how people choose to describe the effects of the kinetic aura, and any ramifications that might result from said description.
If you describe it one way, everything works out fine. If you insist on describing it another way, problems can arise.
This is not a matter of understanding game rules, but rather of conflicting play styles.
And one group telling another group how they should play the game is not really a cool thing to be doing.
Please stop talking down to others. It's against the code of conduct here.
I am responding to a post.
Read the above post where Errenor states the following:
You know what else is definitely and irrefutably visible (well, most of the time)? A character that tries to be stealthy. And stealth still works for them! It's a miracle! Well, no, it works because the rules say that stealth works even for visible characters. Even when they have visible spell effects active on them. Even when they are alight as a Christmas tree with numerous wondrous magical items. Even when they have an arsenal of fire weapons on them. And that's all because stealth rules don't consider these interactions. And also if some GM would try to restrict Stealth because of them, they would be a terrible GM for this game. This game is not about tracking such level of details.
This pretty clearly shows the poster should review the stealth rules as this is not how the Stealth rules operate.
You cannot be "definitely and irrefutably visible" and use the stealth rules.
That is not a play-style difference. It pretty clearly shows that the poster has not thoroughly read the Stealth rules.
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And if it's about somebody not reading the rules through properly, it belongs in the forum for rules!
...do I have to make my own thread there like "hey guys apparently there's an argument going on about kineticist's aura and stealth, I don't have a horse in this race but I'm making it so that there's now an actual place for that argument to be continued"?
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IDK a discussion over how people run stealth seems like fair game for a thread about how people feel playing the kineticist.
. . .
?
As they said, concealment or cover at minimum are required.Perception assumes the default of sight-based, if an animal has precise scent, that bush/ect does not grant concealment, and you cannot Sneak.
Perception stuff:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=405
Stealth stuff:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Skills.aspx?ID=15
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Snip from Sneak:
"You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature."
Sooooo yeah. Doesn't even matter if you did a successful Hide first, if you don't Sneak into something that messes with visual sight, Sneak cannot function. Not allowing a roll means even things that would upgrade a degree of success do not get to happen. That's how much of a hard "no." the game dictates.
You *need* to "not be properly seen" by the foe to even have a chance at success. If you have an aura creating of metal splinters potent enough to inflict penalties to attack and AC that is sticking out beyond your smoke cloud, then yeah, I think a lot of GMs are going to think of that like a hiding kid with their feet sticking out below the bottom of the curtain.
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You *need* to "not be properly seen" by the foe to even have a chance at success. If you have an aura creating of metal splinters potent enough to inflict penalties to attack and AC that is sticking out beyond your smoke cloud, then yeah, I think a lot of GMs are going to think of that like a hiding kid with their feet sticking out below the bottom of the curtain.
"The kinetic aura can't damage anything or affect the environment around you unless another ability allows it to."
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Since the aura by itself does not affect the environment, it does not increase or decrease light or visibility or noise or temperature. It is just bits of elements randomly flowing around.
I could see that giving at most a penalty to attempts at stealth (though absolutely nothing in the RAW states so : there is zero mechanical impact given, pretty much the opposite), but definitely not preventing the Kineticist from even trying.
"The kinetic aura can't damage anything or affect the environment around you unless another ability allows it to."
Firstly, the feet sticking out below the curtain do not need to damage anything, they only need to be visible.
Second:
"An aura junction adds an effect to your kinetic aura when you Channel Elements."
Aura Junction: Your enemies in the aura take a –1 status penalty to attacks with metal objects, and they take a –1 status penalty to AC if they're wearing metal armor, have the metal trait, or are made of metal.
That's not some active action like Desert Wind. That's a passive upgrade to the aura. If I was a GM, I'd say 100% anyone suffering the effects of any aura junction knows it's happening, and it's automatic to know the 5ft square that's the source of it.
Through your kinetic gate, elements flow from an elemental plane to orbit your person. The form and appearance of this kinetic aura are unique to you. Examples include a chaotic wind orbiting the body, fragments of floating gravel, colorful wicks of flame, stars of raw metal always changing shape, floating snowflakes, or splinters dancing in the air. If you can channel more than one element, pieces of all your kinetic elements appear in the aura.
Even when the aura's not touching, the aura is plainly visible as much as a sword on the hip would be. The precise appearance is free to flavor, but the appearance of the orbiting stuff does not appear to be optional.
It's not about damage, it about being seen.
If there is some language anywhere within the class that enables one to suppress some parts of their aura while leaving it active, even just shrinking its size, that would be relevant to quote.
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One can simply choose a form and appearence that's non obtrusive.
I think this would be like arguing "but my sword is invisible!"
GM: "did you get a sword with the concealable trait?" (did you pick air)
me: "No."
GM: "Are you wearing that sword where it's ready to be drawn?" (Is the aura up?)
me: "Yes."
GM: "Then the sword is visible, they can see it." (Then the aura is sticking out beyond the bush, they know you're in there)
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This metaphor really is not a stretch.
You are arguing that because PCs have a free license to flavor the appearance of a thing, that they can choose for it to be invisible. I think that's an easy "No, that's not what that says, let alone implies."
Having air be right there as the invisible element is really just icing on the cake.
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If the auras disadvantaged stealth then it would be written out mechanically like the stealth penalty on heavy armor. If its not stated explicitly then imposing some malus on a stealthing kineticist is a home rule (which is fine but not a metric of class judgement)
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So, unless you want me to believe that someone said:
"hey, let's give them a bonus to stealth and make it impossible for them to stealth simultaneously. That would be hilarious!"Then nah, I'm not going to take you seriously.
This is the kinda thing people point to when saying "not discussing in good faith"
Anyone actually reading what I've written would understand I clearly think an air aura would not hinder stealth.
a)There's a huge difference between making something invisible and making something extremely obvious. [...]
Similarily, because something has to exist doesn't mean that it is also autospottable from a distance.
To reuse the sword example, the issue here is that the aura is visible, and it's huge
As far as I know, there's no way to shrink it, or to turn off any effects it provides.
The issue with the "I can just turn down the RGB lighting of my aura" argument is that RaW, no, you cannot dim the lights without completely flipping the switch and disabling the mechanical effects of the aura.
However many flowers are sprouting around you, the whole aura zone has *enough flowers* to be giving temp HP to allies. Enough to be visible.
It is the same mechanical benefits that are visible manifestations, you cannot get the mechanical effects of the aura without it being visible.
That's like carrying a 10ft pole on your back, it's going to mess with trying to hide behind little bits of cover, even when you don't want it to.
Comparing the aura-on to a drawn halberd is rather apt.
It should not be a big deal that if PCs don't want the aura to be seen, they either can pick air or flip the switch to turn it off for a sec.
If the auras disadvantaged stealth then it would be written out mechanically like the stealth penalty on heavy armor. If its not stated explicitly then imposing some malus on a stealthing kineticist is a home rule (which is fine but not a metric of class judgement)
Light trait nor a bunch of light emitting items say nothing about disadvantaging stealth. Neither do noise-causing items.
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The issue of big floating bubbles of stuff causing issues w/ stealth are limited to the stealth rules around the PC being visible.
The stealth rules don't say "only if the effect says it harms stealth"
If a GM thinks the aura extending out beyond the cover is visible, that's causing problems.
Essentially, it's a size increase problem as much as anything.
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How many PCs here would argue against a GM if they were given a penalty to a Diplomacy check for being covered in blood after a fight, having their weapon in-hand, ect?
I'm wondering how common it is at tables to actually use the whole notion of Special Circumstances and adding in mechanical effects of details, or if most tables play with a "flavor only" type of norm.
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I think the thing about "something only affects stealth when the rules specify that it does" is that it ignores that if a character were to affix bells to all their clothing, cover themself in glitter, then set their hat on fire that should make it somewhat difficult for that character to be inconspicuous even though there are no rules for hat fire or glitter.
At some level a GM has to make a call not on "what specifically the rules say" but on what makes sense in the story. Even if your kinetic aura is "a gentle breeze" that is still going to be abundantly obvious in "a library" but much less so in "an open meadow."
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So, unless you want me to believe that someone said:
"hey, let's give them a bonus to stealth and make it impossible for them to stealth simultaneously. That would be hilarious!"Then nah, I'm not going to take you seriously.
This is the kinda thing people point to when saying "not discussing in good faith"
Anyone actually reading what I've written would understand I clearly think an air aura would not hinder stealth.
a)There's a huge difference between making something invisible and making something extremely obvious. [...]
Similarily, because something has to exist doesn't mean that it is also autospottable from a distance.
To reuse the sword example, the issue here is that the aura is visible, and it's huge
As far as I know, there's no way to shrink it, or to turn off any effects it provides.
The issue with the "I can just turn down the RGB lighting of my aura" argument is that RaW, no, you cannot dim the lights without completely flipping the switch and disabling the mechanical effects of the aura.
However many flowers are sprouting around you, the whole aura zone has *enough flowers* to be giving temp HP to allies. Enough to be visible.
It is the same mechanical benefits that are visible manifestations, you cannot get the mechanical effects of the aura without it being visible.
That's like carrying a 10ft pole on your back, it's going to mess with trying to hide behind little bits of cover, even when you don't want it to.
Comparing the aura-on to a drawn halberd is rather apt.
It should not be a big deal that if PCs don't want the aura to be seen, they either can pick air or flip the switch to turn it off for a sec.
RAW the halberd, drawn or not, does not penalize stealth. Just like the aura being active.
Now, if the GM says the drawn halberd penalizes stealth, the PC can drop it for free to use stealth with no penalty.
Dismissing the aura takes one action. It's not free.
BTW I never had a GM preventing me from using Avoid Notice even with weapons drawn. Would you yet forbid it to a Kineticist with an active aura ?
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I think the thing about "something only affects stealth when the rules specify that it does" is that it ignores that if a character were to affix bells to all their clothing, cover themself in glitter, then set their hat on fire that should make it somewhat difficult for that character to be inconspicuous even though there are no rules for hat fire or glitter.
At some level a GM has to make a call not on "what specifically the rules say" but on what makes sense in the story. Even if your kinetic aura is "a gentle breeze" that is still going to be abundantly obvious in "a library" but much less so in "an open meadow."
I mean, there's a difference between creating some specific scenario outside the normal bounds of the game and expecting the GM to make a call on it and claiming that it is an concrete feature that a certain ability prevents you from making stealth checks without anything like that even being mentioned.
No one's suggested GM's aren't allowed to make judgment calls about things.
I think the thing about Kinetic Auras and stealth is that its effect on "how obvious you are" should be somewhere between "carrying a torch" and "carrying a large weapon".
I think the point is not that your kinetic aura makes you super obvious, it's that if you're trying to be maximally sneaky you should probably suppress it, much like you'd sheathe your sword so the glint doesn't tip anybody off.
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What I'm seeing here is a lot of people trying to bring realism or verisimilitude to a game skill that isn't normally so tied to that.
We're talking about the skill that allows 7th level characters to hide in the shadows versus darkvision, which allows goblins, halflings, and legendary characters in stealth to hide in plain sight!
So prohibiting a kineticist from hiding with the aura active, because for example, the player chose to be air and earth, even though the game mechanically states that a kineticist who has an air junction skill even gets a bonus to be able to use stealth it would just be unfair, as it goes against the concept of how skills work in the game.
So yes a kineticist can hide with its aura enable no matter what element it uses just like a lvl 16 giant barbarian that has Legendary Sneak can hide in plain sight.
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Stealth is difficult enough to use effectively without nerfing it into the ground with arbitrary house rules.
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What I'm seeing here is a lot of people trying to bring realism or verisimilitude to a game skill that isn't normally so tied to that.
We're talking about the skill that allows 7th level characters to hide in the shadows versus darkvision, which allows goblins, halflings, and legendary characters in stealth to hide in plain sight!
So prohibiting a kineticist from hiding with the aura active, because for example, the player chose to be air and earth, even though the game mechanically states that a kineticist who has an air junction skill even gets a bonus to be able to use stealth it would just be unfair, as it goes against the concept of how skills work in the game.
So yes a kineticist can hide with its aura enable no matter what element it uses just like a lvl 16 giant barbarian that has Legendary Sneak can hide in plain sight.
At level 16 building up a skill they don't normally build up and taking a very specific Legendary feat which is supposed to be the pinnacle of being a stealthy character.
The natural language of PF2 clearly states there is elemental material floating around the kineticist in a 10 foot aura. Given how PF2 is written where every little detail of a rule is not written as a rule, but you can read an ability and infer how it works according to the description.
The description for Kinetic Aura is that elements float around the kineticist. They don't say these elements are invisible. The natural language reading of a kinetic aura is that there is a 10 foot noticeable emanation of elements around you.
It is not a prohibition on Stealth. It is GM fiat. If the player takes the skill junction for air, I'm absolutely fine with the player telling me they calm their aura to a light breeze with tiny specs of dust floating around it when they Stealth.
My position is when the player decides what their aura looks like, then I'm going to adjudicate the game accordingly in a way that makes sense.
Some of us do like verisimilitude. Not realism, which is different than believability. We all know this is a fantastical, magical game, but some of us want some believability in the same way when we read a book or comic or something, we want it to make us believe in the fantastic. Which good writers generally put thought into.
As I play D&D to tell a joint story, I want things to make some sense. So I work towards that end goal so the story seems to make some sense. Even when my players ask for an explanation for something, I give them one that makes sense within the game world. That's part of what I feel my job as a DM is to make sure things make some sense within the story to encourage immersion and verisimilitude.
I'm not somehow forcing my way of thought on someone else, I'm just stating that there is not a clear rule where the player gets to do whatever they want. Kinetic Aura doesn't read that way and contradicts rules such as the Stealth rules for visibility.
It's up to the player to come up with a reason why no one notices their aura and sell it to the GM. Then the GM can decide if it is a good sell and fits how things work.
Maybe this purely a misunderstanding where both sides think the other is saying something they are not. I'm not saying, "You cant' stealth no matter what", I'm saying, "Ok, you want your aura up, explain me how that works avoiding notice or in a social situation." So I can adjudicate that in the game world.
I'm literally playing a Kineticist myself right now as a player, not even DMing. Yet I would never think to tell my DM my fire and earth aura walking around with it active was not going to be noticed when I specifically wrote down my aura looks like magma infused volcanic rocks floating around me.
So I'm supposed to look at my DM and say, "Hey DM, I have a 20 foot aura of magma infused volcanic rocks around me. Can I hide behind this 3 foot diameter column and not have anyone notice? The rules don't say I can't, so you have to let me."
Why should I be able to do that? I chose how my aura looks. I don't need it active all the time. Why should I try to impose upon the DM because a rule doesn't clearly state that my choice of aura is clearly visible and quite prominently so?
This is not an absolute one way or the other in my mind. It's a GM player interaction where the GM has final say as is stated in multiple areas of the rulebook. I'm not forcing my way upon anyone. Just saying how I see the rules interactions.
I'm certainly not trying to limit my own character. Yet I would never try to force my DM to rule in a way that reduces verisimilitude because something specific wasn't written when the description is pretty clear that a kinetic aura is a visible and possibly audible and tactile sensation whether it is heat from a fire aura or a breeze from a wind aura or a bit of dew from a water aura. Not damaging, but can definitely be sensed.
That's my position and I don't plan to change it. I have magma infused volcanic rocks around me in a 20 foot radius when my kinetic aura is active and I don't expect my DM to let me stealth when I have that around me if I am visible to the enemies.
My position is when the player decides what their aura looks like, then I'm going to adjudicate the game accordingly in a way that makes sense.
That's the way most of the rest of us run our games too I think. I certainly do at least.
So I'm supposed to look at my DM and say, "Hey DM, I want have a 20 foot aura of magma infused volcanic rocks around me. Can I hide behind this 3 foot diameter column and not have anyone notice? The rules don't say I can't, so you have to let me."
Why should I be able to do that?
That doesn't really happen though. I think one of the reasons you're not getting more support is that your examples are so extreme that it comes off as disingenuous (or even as reductio ad absurdum).
Also, I don't believe there are any indicators in the rules that aura appearance is completely static and unchanging once selected.
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It is not a prohibition on Stealth. It is GM fiat. If the player takes the skill junction for air, I'm absolutely fine with the player telling me they calm their aura to a light breeze with tiny specs...
[meme]This is the way..[/meme]
I'm rarely in full agreement with DF but I couldn't be more on board with this interpetation.
I think a lot of people are conflating some of us saying that the Aura being visible and making Stealth, at least in some circumstances, harder with assertions that the Aura prevents you from using Stealth or it even applying penalties which isn't something that I think anyone is actually saying.
Also, I think some here might getting their rules for the size of the Aura a bit muddled and are thinking that it's 10 ft across in total when that is NOT the case, the Aura is 25 ft wide and extends another 10 ft ABOVE the Kineticist as well which is a HUGE difference. It's about the size difference between a baseball and volleyball but scaled up, they're the same shape but the volume they take up is vastly different.
The Aura wouldn't stop anyone from using Stealth to Hide for the purpose of taking Cover/Concealment and gaining all the associated benefits of it or to even gain the Hidden condition. I WOULD say though that if the 21 squares that surround a Kineticist where the Aura is present aren't ALSO obscured or in some manner repressed for the purpose of senses other than sight that one would have a VERY hard time justifying a situation where the Kin could EVER benefit from the Undetected Condition, Hidden is not problem as that Condition doesn't conceal that the presence of a Creature nor does it protect the hiding Kin from their opponents knowing exactly what Square they are located in since, well, that's what the Hidden condition is.
In other words, the vast majority of uses for Stealth are completely unaffected by the Aura being up but if you're trying to use Stealth to ensure that you cannot even be Detected and your Aura is up you'd need to be sure you are COMPLETELY enclosed in a space that does not permit the Emananation to spilling outward; examples being hiding inside of a barrel with the top closed over it would be fine but hiding under a table with a tablecloth over it wouldn't pass the sniff test as it would be easily noticiable as the Emanation would flow out underneath the cloth and appear extremely suspicious even if its just an Air Kin as the tablecloth would obviously be moving due to the swirling chaotic air and that's the BEST case scenerio.
I understand and share this philosophy.
Most of us in favour say exactly this, that you can choose how your aura looks, and if indeed you make fiery chains they are visible.
It's just that there are people in the thread that straight up say "no, you can't design an aura that allows you to stealth".
And for those people I ask again, in their games, why the 10ft aura disallows Avoid notice but the 10ft flaming polearm doesn't?
It sure is frustrating to have your words repeatedly misinterpreted if not intentionally straw-manned.
As far as I can see from the RaW, visible chunks of elements exist for all but air. They fill the full 10 or 20 ft aura, enough for the aura junctions like growing flowers or earthen difficult terrain to manifest. I also see that there is no option to shrink it or edit the aura, only on-off.
If I tried to hide in a 5ft cube of smoke w/ a 10ft weapon, I would be fine with my GM saying "no".
Same issue with the above example of hiding behind a column with gate open.
That doesn't really happen though. I think one of the reasons you're not getting more support is that your examples are so extreme that it comes off as disingenuous (or even as reductio ad absurdum).
Also, I don't believe there are any indicators in the rules that aura appearance is completely static and unchanging once selected.
The issue is that there is no rule for dimming the open gate, when it's open, it's open. All mechanical effects are filling the entire zone. Those Aura Junction passives are especially clear. It's not viable to claim the Earth aura that creates difficult terrain is "not actually there right now because I'm trying to hide" if the gate is open, the aura is active.
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Opening one's gate and unleashing the elements within has written mechanics. I'm all for maximal flavor, but as soon as it would change the mechanics, you've got to get GM approval for homebrew/table rules.
There's no rule for turning off your flowers, or suppressing any piece of the aura. It's unleashed or closed.
As long as that new ability would be acknowledged as a house-rule, that's fine. I have no issue with people finding rules dumb and changing them. I do take issue when rule-edits are presented as the real thing. I don't know how one can read the Kineticist and their Aura and think it's an option to make non-air elements invisible. It's like a parent saying "you can paint it however you want." to their kid. It's still instructions to paint the thing, and trying to leave it blank does not comply with the instructions.
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If the notion that the full size aura is full of visible elements is accepted, that's a pretty serious issue for stealth. It's basically making the PC size super big and hard to hide.
As far as I can tell, the stealth rules make it pretty dang clear that the pillar-hiding Kineticist would be unable to hide there. Yes, they are written with a default assumption that the body of the PC is all the visible bits of them, and a GM would need to think about how the aura bubble affects visibility.
If I was a GM with a pillar-hiding Kineticist, I'd rule "no" in the moment, give them a chance to ctrl-z and/or drop the aura, and then talk it out later to brew specific rules if they were not happy with the cloud of dirt clods giving away their position.
Again, nothing in the Aura entry forces one to design the Aura to be extremely violent and obvious.
Bits of sand orbiting, a fine example for a purely earth aura, are fine per RAW. It is element coming out of your gate and can be spread in 10ft radious.
And in normal circumstances, no one should auto detect that except in some very specific environments.
On the flip side, chunks of molten lava are also applicable as a fire/stone Aura, and those would be extremely more visible.
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People putting words into the actual ability text that do not exist are imo the problem.
Duuuuuude. Cmon.
Through your kinetic gate, elements flow from an elemental plane to orbit your person. The form and appearance of this kinetic aura are unique to you. Examples include a chaotic wind orbiting the body, fragments of floating gravel, colorful wicks of flame, stars of raw metal always changing shape, floating snowflakes, or splinters dancing in the air. If you can channel more than one element, pieces of all your kinetic elements appear in the aura.
As soon as aura junctions get involved, that upgrades to flying bits of metal that attack enemy weapons and armor, life giving blossoms springing up outta nowhere, difficult terrain, enough water to grant fire resist, and enough fire to impose fire weakness.
If the air junction is taken, I'm fine w/ it being actively obscuring in a prismatic light-bending active camo kinda way, even for mixed elements floating in there.
But without air, it's just wild to me that foes would be unable to see a clear boundary where the aura of swirling elements stops. If that boundary is visible, the Kin ain't hiding behind that pillar unless they switch it off, or get a homebrew way to dial down the aura.
and can be spread in 10ft radious.
Nah, not letting those weasel words sneak in. It is spread. No option to make it 5ft, nor 0ft. The mechanical effects within each square the aura are non optional, and the range is not negotiable without the Feat Aura Shaping.
The way I would recommend running stealth+kinetic auras is that whatever obvious effects an aura would have are suppressed by the air aura junction (which gives a stealth bonus) but aren't normally suppressed. Your kinetic aura shouldn't normally give you away, but contextually it might be a giveaway (like a fire aura in a dark room) in the sense of "perception checks get a circumstance bonus" not in the sense of "you can't attempt to hide."
Generally using an impulse is going to be even more obvious than a spellcaster casting a spell, since a wizard's light show is only in their square but yours is a 10' emanation, with a few exceptions like "the air one that makes you invisible should be subtle."
As for additional abilities, those are also open to interpretation how they appear. You want flowers blooming for temp HP? I want my ally's skin to get bark patches. How are those affecting stealth?
Because however you want to flavor it, the elements exist in every bit of space within the aura. The appearance of elements is mandated, across every square, in a binary on-off manner.
Saying it appears as bark is fine, but saying "and there's nothing else" would clearly change the mechanical rules.
If you wish to refute that the appearance of elements exist in every square covered by one's aura, then please directly state as such.
If you admit/accept there are swirling bits of stuff visible in every aura square, I think it's understandable that a GM might take issue with hiding behind a pillar.
Note I haven't said taking cover, but hiding one's location.
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If you think a Kin *should* be allowed to hide/suppress the appearance of their elements from individual squares as they wish, that's a request for a GM.
I play Alchemists, the last thing I would do is ~"nerf a class just because of how I imagine it to look" or whatever.
I am being a stickler here so that people can avoid future conflict/pain when their incorrect reading of the rules would cause problems for them later.
As far as I can see, there really is no ambiguity about visible elements floating in every aura square. That all this fuss is over spending a single action to open the gate, which already gets to come with free action compression, is head-shaking to an Alchemist, lol. The core design of the Alch is in anti-synergy with itself, and has broken class features like Alchemical Alacrity which were never fixed. Comboing an Overflow impulse before the Sneak/Hide attempt is not an onerous burden, and fits very well with the considerations the class might need to make.
You tap into your kinetic gate to make elements flow around you. Your kinetic aura activates, and as a part of this action, you can use a 1-action Elemental Blast or a 1-action stance impulse. Your kinetic aura is a 10-foot emanation where pieces of your kinetic element (or all your kinetic elements, if you can channel more than one) flow around you. The kinetic aura can't damage anything or affect the environment around you unless another ability allows it to. Channel Elements has the traits of all your kinetic elements.
Through your kinetic gate, elements flow from an elemental plane to orbit your person. The form and appearance of this kinetic aura are unique to you. Examples include a chaotic wind orbiting the body, fragments of floating gravel, colorful wicks of flame, stars of raw metal always changing shape, floating snowflakes, or splinters dancing in the air. If you can channel more than one element, pieces of all your kinetic elements appear in the aura.
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If a player said "no, I can Hide. My aura is so thin, it's just a few grains of sand flying through each square."
"You have opened a connection to a primordial plane of elemental power, it's swirling a full 10 feet above and around you. You are saying this is so thin and hard to see, that those tomb raiders 30ft over there, who just saw you seconds ago, will not notice the cloud of elements when you're behind the pillar?"
"yes."
Do you understand why a GM might disallow that as power-gaming/ridiculous? Or at the least impose a circumstance penalty?
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It's okay for class features to have secondary considerations that may have negative mechanical impacts. Not just bits of class mechanics, but even simple flavor.
If a Witch decides to flavor themself by wearing a bunch of literal bones, it's okay for that to have negative social consequences with NPCs, ect.
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The way I would recommend running stealth+kinetic auras is that whatever obvious effects an aura would have are suppressed by the air aura junction (which gives a stealth bonus) but aren't normally suppressed. Your kinetic aura shouldn't normally give you away, but contextually it might be a giveaway (like a fire aura in a dark room) in the sense of "perception checks get a circumstance bonus" not in the sense of "you can't attempt to hide."
Generally using an impulse is going to be even more obvious than a spellcaster casting a spell, since a wizard's light show is only in their square but yours is a 10' emanation, with a few exceptions like "the air one that makes you invisible should be subtle."
But the fire aura does not provide light at all. Not even dim light.
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But the fire aura does not provide light at all. Not even dim light.
This is so fundamentally at odds with what fire is that I'm surprised the comment didn't come from The Contrarian. Come on now, you're literally trying to argue in opposition to every piece of art featuring the iconic Kin, description, and piece of art that features fire in it to say that it doesn't shed light and is ACTUALLY invisible. This would be like saying that, because the Aura description doesn't go into detail about how it is sensed that it CANNOT be sensed, as if the easiest of the elements to justify as being less obvious, Air chaotically swirling around the Kin, cannot be felt or sensed at all, don't be so silly. Fire sheds light just like how water makes things wet, they don't need to spell it out any more than they'd need to put a description in the back of the Core books that details what light itself is or what colors look like.
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But the fire aura does not provide light at all. Not even dim light.This is so fundamentally at odds with what fire is that I'm surprised the comment didn't come from The Contrarian. Come on now, you're literally trying to argue in opposition to every piece of art featuring the iconic Kin, description, and piece of art that features fire in it to say that it doesn't shed light and is ACTUALLY invisible. This would be like saying that, because the Aura description doesn't go into detail about how it is sensed that it CANNOT be sensed, as if the easiest of the elements to justify as being less obvious, Air chaotically swirling around the Kin, cannot be felt or sensed at all, don't be so silly. Fire sheds light just like how water makes things wet, they don't need to spell it out any more than they'd need to put a description in the back of the Core books that details what light itself is or what colors look like.
I would not be surprised that a GM would rule that the aura does not shed enough light to provide any significant illumination. Because the description of the aura does not say it does and even states that the aura does not affect the environment around you.
So I guess the question I have is: in a situation where the party is facing an enemy kineticist, as a GM in what contexts would you allow the enemy having their kinetic aura active to give a hint to the party in which areas to Seek?
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...you know, I think this has gone beyond just an argument now, and there are some genuine questions about how the aura interacts with being sneaky, and also if its manifestation can be changed as desired. Because there's "using logic, it would make sense if" arguments on both sides; but there doesn't appear to be anything that actually states it. And the Stealth section doesn't include details people can be assumed to know from real life because they've tried to not be noticed, like "you can't conceal that you're in a room if you're having a loud conversation", but it's not like any of us have personal experience with elemental magic just floating around us.
But the fire aura does not provide light at all. Not even dim light.This is so fundamentally at odds with what fire is that I'm surprised the comment didn't come from The Contrarian. Come on now, you're literally trying to argue in opposition to every piece of art featuring the iconic Kin, description, and piece of art that features fire in it to say that it doesn't shed light and is ACTUALLY invisible. This would be like saying that, because the Aura description doesn't go into detail about how it is sensed that it CANNOT be sensed, as if the easiest of the elements to justify as being less obvious, Air chaotically swirling around the Kin, cannot be felt or sensed at all, don't be so silly. Fire sheds light just like how water makes things wet, they don't need to spell it out any more than they'd need to put a description in the back of the Core books that details what light itself is or what colors look like.
This is why you have to work with the player as a GM to flesh out the kinetic aura because the kinetic aura is left deliberately wide open to give the player plenty of creative options for the aura's appearance and the DM to decide how that works in the world.
A fire aura could just as easily be not much more than an increase in ambient heat a slight warmth for a fire aura. It could be floating bits of flame. It could be sparkles of sunlight or solar flares.
It's kind of a wide open ability that leaves plenty of room for player and DM interaction for how the sensory elements work.
This is a fantastical RPG and this is one of those abilities that let's the GM and player have a little fun figuring out how something works.
Not sure why it sparked such a crazy argument. It all seems pretty simple to me. The player and GM work out the unwritten elements in play hopefully so both have fun and the DM encourages the player to be creative with the abilities that aren't hard-coded into the rules and don't break the game.
Not everything needs to be hard-coded into the rules. Some of it can be worked out using creative play options and a little GM fiat. Games like this was supposed to allow for a little fun, spontaneous creative play.
The Kineticist aura and base kinesis and such were built for such things. Have some fun with it. Get creative.
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Yet the aura visual effects need to be defined in a way that doesn't affect the gameplay. A fire aura needs to be subtle enough to not generate light or give a heat or the little smoke or difficult hiding or any other effect that's not active in the aura because it cannot "affect the environment around".
So I'm ok if some add some flavor but need to restrict it to not affect gameplay or you will open the door for many unpredicted interactions with the aura the environment and gameplay. Otherwise not only the aura will prevent some actions like Hide, but also you are opening the way to ignite a black powder or to light or heat something actionless or for water doing the opposite wetting the things.
That's why I'm saying the aura flavor is up to player and GM but you need to restrict to avoid gameplay interations or you will be opening a gate to have to houseruling many things out of how is predicted to the class to interact.