What is the most weapon damage we can get with a single strike...with a d4 weapon?
Thaumaturge and Exploit Vulnerability? Barbarian and Power Attack? Rogue and Sneak Attack?
I want to make a character who misleads enemies into thinking he's not that big a threat. Little blade. Big hits. How?
Swashbuckler has the highest single hit damage bonuses on average, so we start with that as a base class. Gymnast Style because that adds additional damage to your finisher.
Combine with Barbarian dedication and the instinct ability feats gets you an additional +4 if you choose elemental or draconic (giant gives +6 but that requires you to wield a Large weapon which might be off theme).
Take something from Barbarian at 4 so you can free up your archetype, that way you can grab rogue dedication at 8 and sneak attacker at 10.
There are a few extra ways to squeeze out damage bonuses, like emblazon for status bonuses from cleric (if you can't convince a friend to play a divine witch) or fighter for dual handed assault... it bumps your weapon die up to d6 so it might violate your concept but it's not magically making your weapon bigger or anything.
Assassin archetype can add a lot to a small weapon.
Something like Kobold Fangwire is a good choice for a d4 weapon.
The problem with the Swashbuckler Finisher is you have to use a Finisher. Which means you can stack anything else on it. Where as a Rogue does less dice but that is just on a Strike. so you can stack others things on. So by level 20 it is +4d6 but you can add another +4d6 from Analyse Weakness. Then combine it with 3 or 4 extra weapon dice from Inventor Megaton Strike . There is a weapon die size increase too.
I'm more concerned with the outward appearance to NPCs than with game mechanics. I have no issue with an ability increasing the damage dice size.
I do have some issue with things like a giant instinct's large weapon (bigger weapons are often more intimidating), but something like a Small poppet holding a Medium knife would be totally cool with me, as it is unlikely to appear comparatively threatening.
I want to be that guy who pulls a tiny weapon and have the bad guys all go "Really?" before I take them to the cleaners.
Obvious, visible magic--such as Spellstrike or a flaming rune--go against theme as magic is always terrifying. Something like an extending weapon might make for a nasty surprise though, as it is unlikely to be obvious until used.
The problem with the Swashbuckler Finisher is you have to use a Finisher. Which means you can stack anything else on it.
Yeah, being able to do both a Swashbuckler Finisher and Spellstrike as one hit would be fantastic. Probably too fantastic - which is why it doesn't work. It runs into the problem of Subordinate Actions. Spellstrike only allows a Strike action, not a Finisher.
I think you can combine Finisher and Sneak Attack though, since Finisher uses Strike and Sneak Attack applies to any Strike action made. Archetype Sneak Attack and Archetype Finisher damage aren't all that great though.
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Question: Is this for a thought experiment or to make a viable PC?
There's a big difference in answers.
Trouble with Barbarian is many of the best 1d4 weapons have Agile, which halves the Rage bonus to damage. Also, the MCD's just not worth it compared to Thaumaturge or Rogue MCDs. Of course, if we're going for silly, as RD often prefers, then you'd want all three MCDs!
Not sure why you dislike Spellstrike, RD, when it's just as hidden as any other ability before the Strike. And after the Strike, enemies will know it ain't just itty-bitty dagger damage. Same goes for Channel Smite (which gets access to a die bump too for a deity's weapon).
Which is to say that ultimately there are a lot of little damage bumps out there via MCDs, too many to take them all, but all being around the same damage bonus. I'd say either Swashbuckler or Rogue has the best chassis for adding a burst of damage to small-die weapons if excluding flashy magic. I think a Rogue adding lots of bleed damage plays to the concept, as that tiny weapon just inflicted a gushing wound, though Swashbuckler has similar effects available. Rogue also can add poison if that's subtle enough to count (as could Alchemist).
I think "You're Next" also plays into this concept, and both of those classes have it.
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What about deadly simplicity fitting in somehow?
Cleric of pharasma upgrades daggers to d6.
What about deadly simplicity fitting in somehow?
Cleric of pharasma upgrades daggers to d6.
If your build has room for it, it would probably be pretty good. It only adds an average of 1 point of damage per weapon die - so +4 damage at level 19. But it is adding it to the base weapon damage rather than as bonus damage, so it won't have bonus stacking problems.
It does cost two feats to get it from the Cleric archetype though.
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So instead of one big attack, do many smaller attacks. Flurry ranger. Get sneak attack from somewhere, use as many damage runes as possible. Dit in cleric for deadly simplicity. Shred.
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Putting various suggestions together.
Toy Poppet (tiny size)
STR +3 at 1st level, +5 by 15th.
Thaumaturge (whatever implements)
2: Barbarian Dedication (giant instinct)
4: (open Barbarian archetype feat)
6: Instinct Ability
8: Inventor Dedication (weapon innovation)
10: Basic Breakthrough (open)
12: Advanced Breakthrough (Megaton Strike)
14: Basic Modification (Complex Simplicity)
16: Rogue Dedication
18: Sneak Attacker
20: (open feat)
giant (for a tiny poppet) Frying Pan: 1d4 damage with fatal d8 (and no agile)
Complex Simplicity upgrades that to d6 base damage die (maybe with with fatal d10 depending on GM ruling).
+3 Major Striking for 4d6 base weapon damage
Greater Weapon Specialization and Master proficiency for +6 damage
STR bonus +5
Implement's Empowerment +8
Personal Antithesis: weakness 12
Rage +6 damage
Megaton Strike (normal) +3 dice
Megaton Strike (unstable) +4 dice
Sneak Attack +1d6
While raging and flanking an enemy and at least failing at Exploit Vulnerability, an unstable Megaton Strike will do 4d6 +5(STR) +6(Specialization) +8(Implement's Empowerment) +6(Rage) +1d6(sneak attack) +4d6(Megaton) damage and trigger weakness 12.
4d6 +1d6 +4d6 +25
Actually i forgot that champion also gets the die increase for dagger if a champion of pharasma. Maybe thats a better starting point. Does a shield fit into your concept?
While raging and flanking an enemy and at least failing at Exploit Vulnerability, an unstable Megaton Strike will do 4d6 +5(STR) +6(Specialization) +8(Implement's Empowerment) +6(Rage) +1d6(sneak attack) +4d6(Megaton) damage and trigger weakness 12.
Oh, and on a crit, that would be (going with the safer ruling of fatal d8 not being increased):
{ 4d8 +5(STR) +6(Specialization) +8(Implement's Empowerment) +6(Rage) +1d6 Sneak Attack) +4d8(Megaton) } x2 +1d8(Fatal) and trigger weakness 12.
+
134 +12 weakness
Obvious, visible magic--such as Spellstrike or a flaming rune--go against theme as magic is always terrifying. Something like an extending weapon might make for a nasty surprise though, as it is unlikely to be obvious until used.
The spellstrike wouldn't be particularly obvious until used either, though.
I mean, this is a thematic build. If you don't feel like it fits the theme that you want, then it's not what you're looking for, but "I stab you and then you explode" seems like it would be pretty surprising to me.
That said... shears. Shears are a one-handed d4 damage deadly d8 weapon that is favored of the Followers of Fate. A dedication into Cleric and a shot of Deadly Simplicity would make that a d6 deadly d8. Possibly pick up Emblazon Armaments on your way out? It's finesse, so it works just fine with rogue and swashbuckler shenanigans, though you might want to start from a basis of Fighter for the extra crits and dual-wielding feats. If you don't start from fighter, seriously consider dual-weapon warrior.
"You should run when I have scissors."
You'd def want an Alch in your party.
If this is just one PC, then they can still buy literally anything an Alchemist can make, so they are not actually needed... ... ...
.
The Weapon Siphon adds a 1d4, there's injury poisons on the blade, and the Injection Reservoir.
There's also the Energy Mutagen (Major), adds 2d6 dmg to your Strike.
Probably some food buff or other that would technically apply as well, but thankfully mutagens don't stack.
Hmm, the wording of the mutagen is:
"add 2d6 damage on a hit with a melee weapon,"
I'm not sure if that would be doubled on a crit.
I'm not sure if that would be doubled on a crit.
It would. Only damage that only happens on a crit doesn't get doubled.
Yikes, I guess that means the damage from Extract Poison would double as well.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=907
It's a weird spell, granting 1d6 extra poison damage on your next strike **per item level** of the poison (that you could just carry with you). Not sure on the counteract success rate, but a min that could be 20d6 damage, but I think items sometimes go above L20.
It also scales perfectly well for whatever theoretical level you wish to be at. Just need a wand and Trick Magic Item
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If you crit an undead with Rank 10 Searing Light you will do 38d6 x2.
An object with the Item Quirk known as Junky (#60) "Appears shoddy or made of scraps." That's another way to make the weapon seem less threatening.
This is just a thought, but what about weapon improviser? And using silverware. Stabbing someone with a spoon. That would be shocking.
Actually i forgot that champion also gets the die increase for dagger if a champion of pharasma. Maybe thats a better starting point. Does a shield fit into your concept?
I'm rather neutral regarding shields, unless you weaponize them, then it's "please don't."
shield boss with agile shield grip is a thing. Then it is just a agile parry weapon.
Sort of.
It can be narratively described as one item.
But mechanically it is two items. So it still runs into trouble with things like Thaumaturge Implement's Empowerment (holding an Implement, a weapon, and the shield the weapon is attached to, fails to meet the requirements) and Quick Draw (drawing a weapon and the shield it is attached to is not valid).
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shield boss with agile shield grip is a thing. Then it is just a agile parry weapon.Sort of.
It can be narratively described as one item.
But mechanically it is two items. So it still runs into trouble with things like Thaumaturge Implement's Empowerment (holding an Implement, a weapon, and the shield the weapon is attached to, fails to meet the requirements) and Quick Draw (drawing a weapon and the shield it is attached to is not valid).
Aa an aside...
That seems like an unnecessarily strict reading of the rules. Were I GM, I'd happily declare a shield with a shield boss as being a single item that is both a weapon AND shield and, if desired, a held weapon implement.
And I feel that would follow the intention of the developers what's more.
Were I GM, I'd happily declare a shield with a shield boss as being a single item that is both a weapon AND shield and, if desired, a held weapon implement.
And I feel that would follow the intention of the developers what's more.
I think there are already threads on this. And if the intent was to allow Thaumaturge to use shields, then shields would have been one of the items allowed to be held by a Thaumaturge in the Implement's Empowerment ability.
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It could also be an oversight on Paizo's part. As far as I know no other ability or class says you can't use a shield. Just you need a hand free to do X.I think there are already threads on this. And if the intent was to allow Thaumaturge to use shields, then shields would have been one of the items allowed to be held by a Thaumaturge in the Implement's Empowerment ability.Were I GM, I'd happily declare a shield with a shield boss as being a single item that is both a weapon AND shield and, if desired, a held weapon implement.
And I feel that would follow the intention of the developers what's more.
It's possible, but I find it unlikely. The wording prevents using anything else. Fairly specifically. So it prevents using staves, wands (normal non-Implement wands), two weapons (even if one of them is your Weapon Implement), potions, elixirs, held magical items, ...
shield boss with agile shield grip is a thing. Then it is just a agile parry weapon.Sort of.
It can be narratively described as one item.
But mechanically it is two items. So it still runs into trouble with things like Thaumaturge Implement's Empowerment (holding an Implement, a weapon, and the shield the weapon is attached to, fails to meet the requirements) and Quick Draw (drawing a weapon and the shield it is attached to is not valid).
Aa an aside...
That seems like an unnecessarily strict reading of the rules. Were I GM, I'd happily declare a shield with a shield boss as being a single item that is both a weapon AND shield and, if desired, a held weapon implement.
And I feel that would follow the intention of the developers what's more.
Yep I have specifically allowed it for a player as well. It is not a problem.
Those items can be used just fine. Worst case scenario, they just don't synergize well with your class abilities.