I'm planning to run Kingmaker2e starting early next year. One player will almost certainly bring a Kineticist and another one is thinking about a Barbarian with the Kineticist archetype.
We talked a bit yesterday (kind of like a very early session -1) and the Barb mentioned he considers getting Winter Sleet. Upon reading this impulse, I pretty much immediately decided to ban it (unless I find a good homebrew way to rein it in) because it seems a bit ridiculous. The players so far seem fine with my decision.
I'm not super familiar with the Kineticist and frankly, don't care enough about the class to do a deep dive. So I thought I'd ask here for anything you might think of as problematic in the class. Any other borderline OP impulses or weird interactions - within the class or betwen it and other classes/archetypes - to look out for?
Really not trying to be a spoilsport and there's quite a bit in the rules I'm willing to let slde, but Winter Sleet just seems way too much and now I wonder what else I might be missing.
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... Perhaps it would help to know what you thought was ridiculous about Winter Sleet? For the Barb, being able to make enemies within 10' flat-footed and unable to step by level 8 doesn't seem entirely game breaking. Especially since it also affects your allies in 10'. The DC doesn't scale so by level 8, any creature 'trained' in Acrobatics needs at most 5 to move. Granted you have to interact with the somewhat clunky Balance rules, but I think those were getting cleaned up in post? I know Athletics had some changes so here's hoping.
Automatically making anything near you off-guard without any check/save required already seems pretty damn strong to me. Allies can mostly ignore it as he can get Save Elements at the same level since we're playing with free archetype. And even without FAT the problem would just be delayed 2 levels.
The DC 15 acrobatics check is trivial for anything level appropriate that's trained in acrobatics, that's true. But there's also plenty of creatures that are untrained (about 40% of all creatures on AoN), often ones that are large and slow and have low Dex, so the DC 15 becomes almost a flat check. It has unlmited uses, doesn't require a check or save and (unlike abilities like Trip) don't interact with your MAP at all. And that is ON TOP of making everything difficult terrain and everyone off-guard.
The only balancing factor I see is that the Barb needs a free hand to activate it. But that doesn't seem nearly enough.
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I think you’re underestimating the action cost
You need an action to activte your kinetic gate, then an action for Winter’s Sleet, leaving you one action in turn one.
If you then Rage, your allies are still in the radius and flat-footed. If you move, you’re now amongst the enemies without your damage resistance or temporary hp and you’ve spent a whole turn not dealing damage, all for a -2 to enemie’s AC which isn’t going to help you much given a barbrian’s first and second hit are already likely to hit without it.
I would wait to see it in action before deciding it’s overpowered. A lot of time things that look game breaking balance out better in actual play.
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Elemental Gate can be active at any time without any limit. There's no reason to not have it activated before combat. Friendly Fire is also not a concern when you can get a feat to negate it entirely on literally the same level.
A 10 ft emanation is large enough to block a significant part of the battle map with difficult terrain and a pretty good chance to trip about 40% of all creatures existing in PF2. Unless the enemies have ranged attacks, there's no need for the barbarian to run in between them. He can just sit there, let them come and see how they fall on their face. And on top of that every enemy in that sizable area is permanently off-guard without any check or save.
I definitely think that's too much for a single action.
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Friendly Fire is also not a concern when you can get a feat to negate it entirely on literally the same level.
It's worth noting that you only get one class feat at 4th-level, so if you want both, one of them is going to be competing with your higher level, more powerful feat choices.
Every decision comes with an opportunity cost.
Elemental Gate can be active at any time without any limit. There's no reason to not have it activated before combat. Friendly Fire is also not a concern when you can get a feat to negate it entirely on literally the same level.
A 10 ft emanation is large enough to block a significant part of the battle map with difficult terrain and a pretty good chance to trip about 40% of all creatures existing in PF2. Unless the enemies have ranged attacks, there's no need for the barbarian to run in between them. He can just sit there, let them come and see how they fall on their face. And on top of that every enemy in that sizable area is permanently off-guard without any check or save.
I definitely think that's too much for a single action.
Your average battle map, maybe, but not necessarily Kingmaker's. In my experience most encounters take place in big outdoor maps and enemies have ranged attacks.
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If Winter Sleet is a problem, you should probably just ban Kineticist. Winter Sleet doesn't seem like it is all that much more powerful than anything else.
Ravel of Thorns - same level, same area, same ability to avoid friendly fire: Causes Hazardous Terrain, so all of the enemies take damage while moving around. Now stepping/striding away from enemies in order to mitigate the damage that they do to you also causes them to take damage when they close in again. No save.
Sand Snatcher - free flanking and a ranged grapple. Two actions and a free hand to start, but just one sustain action to keep it going.
Flinging Updraft - mobility that can be used on the entire party, or be used as crowd control/forced movement on enemies. Much like Whirling Throw, you can use it to force creatures into snares that have been set up.
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It's also worth noting that these are things that make the kineticist fun, not broken. Other classes can do much the same with a little bit of thought. Kineticist is just more straightforward (and more limited I might add) than other classes, and so it often looks more impressive than it really is.
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One nice/bad thing about Winter Sleet is that movement in its area has to be a Balance action, which means monsters can't use their special two or three action action move plus attack options - the move part doesn't qualify for movement inside Winter Sleet. Finally, some Gogiteth repellant.
Ok, I'm starting to think I'm the crazy one here. Nobody else sees protential problems with Winter Sleet? I don't mind admitting I'm wrong, mind you, and I value all your opinions. It just seems very strange and I can't wrap my head around it (yet?).
It's worth noting that you only get one class feat at 4th-level, so if you want both, one of them is going to be competing with your higher level, more powerful feat choices.
As I mentioned this is primarily about a Barbarian with the Kineticist Archetype in a free archetype game, so getting both at the same level (8) is perfectly possible. But even a full class Kineticist can have both by level 5.
Your average battle map, maybe, but not necessarily Kingmaker's. In my experience most encounters take place in big outdoor maps and enemies have ranged attacks.
Haven't read through the whole AP yet, but I've already seen a decent amount of tighter spaces. At least tight enough for it to really matter. And even in a big open white room, the aura can still make all melee enemies either deal with its effect or take a rather large detour to get where they want. I'm also not judging balance based just on Kingmaker, though it is of course part of the discussion in this case.
If Winter Sleet is a problem, you should probably just ban Kineticist. Winter Sleet doesn't seem like it is all that much more powerful than anything else.
Ravel of Thorns - same level, same area, same ability to avoid friendly fire: Causes Hazardous Terrain, so all of the enemies take damage while moving around. Now stepping/striding away from enemies in order to mitigate the damage that they do to you also causes them to take damage when they close in again. No save.
The -10 speed penalty is less impactful than difficult terrain for most creatures. The damage is mitigated or outright negated by any kind of damage reduction. Frankly, I would expect Winter Sleet to deal more damage per fight by triggering Reactive Strikes and turning miss/hit into hit/crit due to making everything off-guard.
Sand Snatcher - free flanking and a ranged grapple. Two actions and a free hand to start, but just one sustain action to keep it going.
Flanking is Off-Guard which Sleet also provides - and it's better at it. Sand Snatcher comes with a significantly larger action investment, size limitations, actually needs a check to do more than flanking, shares your MAP and can't move and grapple on the same turn. It's good but not even the same ballpark as Winter Sleet.
Flinging Updraft - mobility that can be used on the entire party, or be used as crowd control/forced movement on enemies. Much like Whirling Throw, you can use it to force creatures into snares that have been set up.
Ok, this one is actually quite powerful and has good out-of-combat utility, mostly due to the surprisingly large bonus distance from heightening+2. But it still costs you two actions each turn instead of being a one action "fire and forget" ability.
Other classes can do much the same with a little bit of thought.
Can you give some examples? I really struggle to think of anything that's nearly as effective across the whole combat for a single action.
One nice/bad thing about Winter Sleet is that movement in its area has to be a Balance action, which means monsters can't use their special two or three action action move plus attack options - the move part doesn't qualify for movement inside Winter Sleet. Finally, some Gogiteth repellant.
That's just another reason why I think it might need to be toned down.
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I would be fine with Winter Sleet if it would work like Grease, giving the enemies the choice to either roll an Acrobatics check or a Reflex save. Alternatively, it would be ok-ish as a two action impulse that needs to be sustained or something like that.
As it stands, there's at least one level 25 creature that has a 75% chance to fall prone when trying to move through the sleet. That seems ridiculous. I also just read that the uneven ground rules say you need to succeed on a refelx save every time you are hit or fail a save while you're on uneven ground. DC is still only 15, but at least for a few levels or against very low reflex enemies, that's even more opportunity to get them prone without any extra effort.
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People focus on who has acrobatics to handle Balance, but it's really who doesn't have acrobatics, flight, enough reach, or a ranged/spell attack.
Blave, I don't think you are crazy.
An aura that can affect that many enemies that substantially, passively, is damn nuts.
One little tool to help check the balance is to think about it being a spell/focus spell, and seeing what sort of LvL it might be appropriate to place it.
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Winter Sleet is crazy good, and as-is, a lot of people would think ban-worthy.
The more people have been throwing out "whatabout this thing", the more I'm agreeing with you that it's way too good in comparison, lol.
Forcing so many save or suck checks, shutting down non-balance movement, off-guard, doesn't even need an action to sustain each turn? And someone thought that even after all that, it needed that slow 1 on crit too.
I know that the forums tend to skew quite conservative, but dang.
I wonder if some people might be thinking about this in a 1v1, instead of guesstimating a whole party benefiting from the aura.
The idea that the poison Clown Monarch is too scary and PFS restricted, yet Winter Sleet is somehow fine, is certainly worth a slow head shake.
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also, any enemy that is not touching the ground is completely immune to it.
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Don't forget the handedness requirement of Impulses, too.
So if we assume pretty normal adventuring, weapons out:
Action to enter Rage, free action let go of weapon, Action to enter stance, Action to regrip weapon.
Assuming your Element for Elemental Barb is Water, and thus Winter Sleet gains the rage trait and can only be used while Raging.
Alternatively:
Free action let go of weapon with one hand, Action to enter stance, Action to Rage, Action to regrip weapon. (second and third actions can be done in any order)
Assuming your Element for Elemental Barb is NOT Water, thus entering the stance must be done before entering Rage.
Alternatively, you use a one-handed weapons. Which removes the handedness action tax, but then you're not using a 2-handed weapon, which is generally a downside for a Barbarian. And we can't exactly use that other hand for a shield or anything, without spending additional actions drawing.
The first case is alleviated at level 11, when Mighty Rage will allow you to enter the stance as a free action immediately after using Rage.
But still, it's a non-insignificant action tax for your big hitty character to be using a smaller weapon or to do nothing but set up on the first turn of combat.
(We can alternatively say that the Barb is walking around with their 2-h weapon held in one hand, but not "wielded". But this is functionally the same as holding it in two hands, since releasing is free, but regripping is an action)
First of all, thanks for all the discussion, folks. I apprecate it.
And special thanks to Trip.H to confirm that I'm at least not completely alone in my concerns. :D
Some notes:
- As paizo said themselves, things should be balanced around their potential power ceiling, not the floor.
- Don't get too hung up on the specifics of the character I mentioned. The player isn't even fully decided on the class yet. A Barb/Kineticist might have some issues with action economy, but you can just as well slap the aura onto a champion, monk, rogue, free-hand fighter, swashbuckler or pretty much any other class. Many of them don't have stances themselves (or at least don't require them to work) and often have a free hand anyway.
- The Kineticist stances requiring frequent re-activation after Overflow as a balance point can be true, but even a pure class Kineticist can also be built around using the aura and going into melee with the stone armor and weapon infusion or something similar. I'm honestly not sure how effective this would be compared to some form of Overflow rotation, but it IS an option. Or you could just get both Overflow and Stance impulses and use whatever the situation calls for.
- The aura size isn't a great balancing factor either. 10 ft emanation isn't that small. Things like Enlarge exist. Pure class Kineticist can scale the emanation all the way up to 30 ft and this is the radius, not the diameter. Heck, even someone with just the archetype can ultimately get a 30 ft aura at level 20. Yes, yes, nobody plays at that level and so on and so forth. Again: Power Ceiling matters.
- Yes, it requires multipe feats to excel. But so do most powerful things in the game. A Magus also needs to invest at least two feats to get Imaginary Weapon.
- Saying it's fine because creatures have means to ignore the aura is like saying rogues are a weak damage class because there's things out there immune to precision damage. Anything without a fly speed will at the very least be constantly flat-footed to the whole party and unable to avoid AoOs with Step. Flying is also a mandatory move action even if you just hover so it triggers Reactive Strikes and if you land to avoid that, you're immediately flat-footed. Anything without training in acrobatics has a 65-ish% chance to lose an action or fall prone when they try to move through the aura. Again, that's roughly 40% of all creatures in the game. Some of them are probably incorporeal, have air walk or similar means of avoiding the aura, but even with just 20-25% of all creatures left, that's still a quite seizable number.
- Multiple posts claim other classes can do similar stuff or that the Kineticist has other equally powerful abilities. I'm still waiting for convincing examples. Jagged Berms, which yellowpete mentioned (thanks for that, btw!) so far is the only thing that seems like it could similarly be above the expected power level for an effectively unlimited ability. But at least it has Overflow and costs 3 actions.
I swear, I'm really just trying to get a good grip on the matter so I can make an educated judgement call. To be honest, I think I even WANT to be proven wrong. But so so far Winter Sleet seems like a balancing nightmare along the lines of Diverse Lore - if not worse.
Does anyone have actual play experience with it? Preferably over a longer adventure/campaign?
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Winter Sleet is a little problematic, but mostly for process reasons because the rules for uneven ground are badly written, especially in the context of using it against monsters. If the Op wanted, they could change it from uneven ground to difficult terrain to make it easier to manage (that would even be a buff to the ability at high level).
That said I think the OP is overvaluing off-target (it's a good effect, but the easiest debuff in the game to apply) and a limited sphere of difficult terrain. Both good effects, but more in the sense of making positioning a little more forgiving than creating any broken new paradigm.
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One thing to note is that if he's an elemental barb, then being able to work well with the kineticist archetype is a significant part of his subclass build points.
...which gets to the place where I think you're not crazy. Elemental Barb is pretty much the only class/subclass build I know of that specifically advantages an archetype. combining that with Free Archetype might be a bit much... or it might not. It might be worth thinking about what feats he's going to have to spend.
- He needs the dedication feat: FA 2
- He needs to spend Base Kinesis on some level 1 or level 2 kineticist feat (base feat or Water impulse): FA 4
- He needs to spend his FA 6 on Kineticist as well, because it's still locked in. That's either Base Kinesis or another level 1/level 2 kineticist feat (base fet or Water impulse).
- He needs Winter Sleet itself and (at least by your suggestion) Safe Elements at the same level: FA 8 *and* Class 8.
...so the build turns on at level 8, and gives him some awesome at that point. It's not *overwhelming* awesome, because by that point many enemies will have answers to such things, but it is somewhat awesome.
Out of his dedication feat and his two lvl 1/2 feats, he's getting...
- An elemental blast that's *really* starting to feel pretty anemic by level 8
the two feats. Well, let's run down the list. Deflective Wave would be potentially useful as a reaction except that you need to have a free hand, and it's just not worth the cost (to a barbarian) of leaving that hand free. Elemental Familiar is a familiar, and thus profoundly meh. Extended Kinesis is not actually available, because you need Base Kinesis for it, and you can't get Base Kinesis until the second fo the two slots anyway. It's also not great. Ocean's Balm is pretty handy, and that's high praise right now. He'll take that. Tidal Hands and Winter's Clutch are both based on Class DC, and Tidal hands is overflow, so no. Versatile Blasts and Weapon Infusion are both boosting the anemic elemental blast, and unlikely to be worth it. Kinetic Activation does not function while raging, and Voice of the Elements is incredibly niche for a single-element kineticist, especially one who's unlikely to invest in charisma or diplomacy.
So they're pretty much grabbing Ocean's Balm (because it's actually somewhat useful, even if the "free hand" thing means that it's not as useful as it would be to a real kineticist) and then something else that basically won't contribute meaningfully to battle no matter what it is.
So, from a combat-oriented standpoint, we're talking FA 2, 4, 6, and 8, plus Class 8, plus some of your class path budget, for a ranged option that starts decent at level 2 and then slowly peters out, a heal that's a bit action-inefficient while in battle but still worth having, and (at level 8) an aura that makes nearby enemies slip at the cost of taking your early battle charge-up cycle from 1 action to 3. I'm not saying that the aura isn't good, but that's a nontrivial price tag.
Grappling and athletics is something free hand barbs can be built for. It's a tradeoff but it's not just downsides to one handed builds. To put it simply, you're trading damage potential from a two handed build for versatility with a free hand and impulses. Deflecting wave in particular adds a lot of sustainability to elemental barbs with a good handful of common damage types.
That's fair... but a trip/grapple build is also a bit redundant with Winter Sleet. Like, if you're putting together a build that's all about getting them off-guard by other means already....
The thing is, even though off-guard is by far the most frequent condition, it's still not always trivial to apply. At the very least you need to spend movement for flanking which can cost extra actions or leave you open for Reactive Strikes and even then the enemy can easily get out of flanking with a Step so you need to move again next turn. Any other means of catching enemies off-guard will at least also require actions and a non-trivial check, and even then it's usually only for a single Strike or maybe one turn at beast.
Imagine you're playing a fencer swashbuckler or scoundrel rogue, tumbling and feinting to catch enemies off-guard. Even in the best circumstances, you will probably fail about 30% of those attempts, wasting your action and potentially leading to downsides (triggering reactions or leaving yourself off-guard).
Imagine you're playing protector champion, having spend your 12th level feat on Divine Wall to give yourself a teeny tiny 5 ft emanation of difficult terrain which doesn't even prevent enemies from just stepping away from you.
And then comes the Kineticist and spends a single action wiggling his toes to make multiple enemies off-guard for an unlimited duration without risking any reactions or rolling any checks. He also creates a significantly bigger emanation of effectively difficult terrain that doesn't only prevent enemies from stepping away but also has a 60+% chance of outright knocking a non-trivial amount of creatures prone if they try to move within it at all.
Oh, and to add insult to injury, his crits will now make the target slowed 1. You know, like the Brawling weapon specialization? But without the save - of course.
Sorry, if I'm starting to sound cranky, but the more I think about this ability and compare it to other things that work kinda similar, the worse it looks.
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Are we still talking the elemental Barb or the Kineticist?
In either case, you're starting to make somewhat bad faith arguments. It makes little sense to measure the strength of individual cross-class abilities against each other.
Sure, a Champion's area denial is worse than a water Kineticist. The Champion also has an incredible base reaction and way better HP and AC.
The kineticist has more consistent battlefield control. The rogue and swashbuckler do higher damage, especially vs a single target. Plus the rogue out skills the kineticist by a ton.
The kineticist can inflict slow on a crit? Too bad it's accuracy is lower than martials for big parts of the game:
5-6 and 13-14 when proficiency is just straight lower
Plus the +1 and +2 gate attenuators are level 3 and 11, vs 2 and 10 for +1 and +2 weapons. And there is no +3 gate attenuator.
And forget weapon property runes, entirely.
Are we still talking the elemental Barb or the Kineticist?
Either one, really. Though the slow on crit effect is probably useless for the barb. Still, Winter Sleet seems to powerful either way. Main class or Multiclass doesn't matter.
In either case, you're starting to make somewhat bad faith arguments. It makes little sense to measure the strength of individual cross-class abilities against each other.
Not really? If a new class shows up and can throw party-friendly fireballs that deal double damage all day long - and this ability can be had via multiclassing at a reasonable level! -, I can absolutely compare that to a wizard and easily judge that it's probably too powerful.
Sure, a Champion's area denial is worse than a water Kineticist. The Champion also has an incredible base reaction and way better HP and AC.
But he can also get Winter Sleet. Higher feat investment, sure. But much better at its job than anything the Champion class can muster and it doesn't prevent him from doing his Champion stuff at all.
The kineticist has more consistent battlefield control. The rogue and swashbuckler do higher damage, especially vs a single target. Plus the rogue out skills the kineticist by a ton.
Both can still get Winter Sleet, a very powerful ability, at a comparatively low level. It's better than Gang Up unless you fight an overwhelming number of flying creatures. It's better than Instant Opening. And it sure as hell is better than any Feint a Swashbuckler can use.
The kineticist can inflict slow on a crit? Too bad it's accuracy is lower than martials for big parts of the game:
5-6 and 13-14 when proficiency is just straight lower
Plus the +1 and +2 gate attenuators are level 3 and 11, vs 2 and 10 for +1 and +2 weapons. And there is no +3 gate attenuator.
Kineticist also gets legendary proficiency. And can target saves.
Making enemies off-guard at will with a minimal one-time action investment and without any check or risk is also a pretty solid accuracy boost. And it works for the whole party. That Champion, Rogue and Swashbuckler in your group will never need to worry about flanking or feinting ever again. Sure, it's great to support your friends and hinder enemies. But in this case, the opportunity cost is tiny compared to the effect.
And forget weapon property runes, entirely.
I'm not sure how this is relevant here.
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No one else has mentioned it yet, but the Off Guard is most important as a debuff for the Barb's ranged and caster buddies.
When Martials flank to get their -2, they are not actually inflicting Off-Guard as a status, only personally benefiting.
Most of the time, ranged attackers would need to Sneak or something to get a single Off-Guard shot.
With Sleet, the Kinetecist throws up a single action, and it's just inflicted for potentially the rest of the combat.
The pollen aura that Sickens has a Fort save, Sleet does not.
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Are we still talking the elemental Barb or the Kineticist?Either one, really. Though the slow on crit effect is probably useless for the barb. Still, Winter Sleet seems to powerful either way. Main class or Multiclass doesn't matter.
In either case, you're starting to make somewhat bad faith arguments. It makes little sense to measure the strength of individual cross-class abilities against each other.Not really? If a new class shows up and can throw party-friendly fireballs that deal double damage all day long - and this ability can be had via multiclassing at a reasonable level! -, I can absolutely compare that to a wizard and easily judge that it's probably too powerful.
Except they can't. Any decent radius burst in the Kineticist is a 3-action activity, which means it can't be used with the 1 action necessary to use Pacifying Infusion to exclude the chosen creatures from the effects. It's also 3 actions so you can't move in the same round. And most of them are overflow so it also costs them an action next turn if fighting is still happening.
Cherry on top: most of the Kineticist bursts do less damage than similarly leveled spells, on top of costing more actions. So yeah, they have unlimited mediocre spells; they intentionally don't compare well to what Wizards can do in most regards.Sure, a Champion's area denial is worse than a water Kineticist. The Champion also has an incredible base reaction and way better HP and AC.
But he can also get Winter Sleet. Higher feat investment, sure. But much better at its job than anything the Champion class can muster and it doesn't prevent him from doing his Champion stuff at all.
The kineticist has more consistent battlefield control. The rogue and swashbuckler do higher damage, especially vs a single target. Plus the rogue out skills the kineticist by a ton.Both can still get Winter Sleet, a very powerful ability, at a comparatively low level. It's better than Gang Up unless you fight an overwhelming number of flying creatures. It's better than Instant Opening. And it sure as hell is better than any Feint a Swashbuckler can use.
I guess if we hand wave the opportunity cost of four Class Feats and requiring a free hand, sure. Any character could get Winter's Sleet at no additional cost.
Except plenty of Champions want a shield or a 2-handed weapon. Which means using Winter's Sleet takes additional actions in combat to set up.The kineticist can inflict slow on a crit? Too bad it's accuracy is lower than martials for big parts of the game:
5-6 and 13-14 when proficiency is just straight lower
Plus the +1 and +2 gate attenuators are level 3 and 11, vs 2 and 10 for +1 and +2 weapons. And there is no +3 gate attenuator.Kineticist also gets legendary proficiency. And can target saves.
Making enemies off-guard at will with a minimal one-time action investment and without any check or risk is also a pretty solid accuracy boost. And it works for the whole party. That Champion, Rogue and Swashbuckler in your group will never need to worry about flanking or feinting ever again. Sure, it's great to support your friends and hinder enemies. But in this case, the opportunity cost is tiny compared to the effect.
At level 19, sure, the Kineticist has higher proficiency than most martials. But the gate attenuator only helps their impulse attack rolls, not saves. And AC is largely considered the worst defense for a caster to be targeting.
And it's not like the Kineticist can super easily target all the saves:Only Tremor, The Shattered Mountain Weeps, Glacial Prison, and Sanguiviolent Roots target Fort saves.
Only Wiles on the Wind and Infinite Expanse of Blues Heaven target will.
So they can't effectively "just target saves", since their options in that area are heavily limited.
And unless we're throwing a fifth feat into the mix, Aura Shaping, (at 20th level, mind you) you're going to have a real hard time positioning to affect a significant number of foes as an archetyped Kineticist.
And as a full class Kineticist. Sure. The class gets a few things other classes can't easily replicate but, like all classes, have strengths and weakness that inform why you should play one and not another.
Again, if you find that many class feats a trivial investment, I just don't think we're going to agree on things at a pretty base level.
But the point of bringing up Weapon Property Runes is that they're another thing you're giving up using as a Kineticist. More Opportunity Cost.
I dunno. If you want to ensure character aren't getting too powerful by having super easy access to cross-class abilities, you should place limits on Free Archetype choices. Sounds to me like disallowing Multiclass Archetypes on FA would solve most of your gripes about the Kineticist.
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Using real life stats to decide in game stats is a slippery slope. Probably best to use the material statistics in the CRB or else things can get wonky. Also note that a kineticist can only make so much bulk with basic/extended kinesis.
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For what it's worth, you can save yourself the action cost of that initial free hand if you invest in Quick Draw. If you're not a fighter, rogue, or Ranger, though, that's going to require you to start dipping into another archetype. Those feat costs rack up pretty quick.
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If you guys want to try to break Base Kinesis, maybe post in one of these threads?