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[I]t puts a lot of work on players to comb through spells looking for traits.That would be an issue for dead tree users but not for PDF and AoN users. I think we need to move away from designs tied to the limitations of books and start embracing what newer methods allow us to do.
Some players, such as my fiancée and many of my friends, have difficulty with digital mediums and prefer physical books - so, no, I don't think we should be doing things that would make it more difficult for accessibility (which isn't always equal to things being digital).
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I kind of wanna add with my idea here is something not wizard related, but still arcane related for this thread, which is a Cleric of Nethys should probably get arcane spells and perhaps even more. Something about clerics I always found disappointing is that the divine list, and in 1e the cleric list, is such a narrow range of spells that doesn't particularly fit most dieties or rather doesn't give enough. I think it would be cool if a cleric of Nethys could do something like the imperial sorcerer where you get a little spell book and in that can be spells from the arcane or perhaps any tradition. Whatever the limit should be. I think it would be pretty neat
Which could be solved with the Trait Idea :p
If Certain Deities give access to certain Traits in addition maybe to base cleric ones.Of course like most of my Idea they would be potential stuff for a 3rd Edition in terms of scope.
But in general yes more thematic fitting Spells for CLerics would be nice.
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I kind of wanna add with my idea here is something not wizard related, but still arcane related for this thread, which is a Cleric of Nethys should probably get arcane spells and perhaps even more. Something about clerics I always found disappointing is that the divine list, and in 1e the cleric list, is such a narrow range of spells that doesn't particularly fit most dieties or rather doesn't give enough. I think it would be cool if a cleric of Nethys could do something like the imperial sorcerer where you get a little spell book and in that can be spells from the arcane or perhaps any tradition. Whatever the limit should be. I think it would be pretty neatWhich could be solved with the Trait Idea :p
If Certain Deities give access to certain Traits in addition maybe to base cleric ones.Of course like most of my Idea they would be potential stuff for a 3rd Edition in terms of scope.
But in general yes more thematic fitting Spells for CLerics would be nice.
I like your idea better here for an individual class when it comes to more narrow traits, but I still have reservations about how much work it might be for the designers. I think for one class when one feature gives a small list of additional spells based on traits it might not be nearly as painful. Though I think Nethys in particular should just let you grab spells regardless of traits, but maybe Urgathoa gives you spells with some kind of death, disease or undeath traits. Also on Urgathoa, maybe she replaced your divine font of heal or harm with animate dead but the number reduces to half? :)
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Some players, such as my fiancée and many of my friends, have difficulty with digital mediums and prefer physical books - so, no, I don't think we should be doing things that would make it more difficult for accessibility (which isn't always equal to things being digital).[I]t puts a lot of work on players to comb through spells looking for traits.That would be an issue for dead tree users but not for PDF and AoN users. I think we need to move away from designs tied to the limitations of books and start embracing what newer methods allow us to do.
I don't disagree, though I think it would be nice if the books adopted at least a few of the digital commodities, since some of them aren't difficult to do.
One example would be Summon spells listing creature types of the appropriate levels for players to examine beforehand when going to cast the spell. AoN has such a list, meaning spells like Animate Dead and Summon Animal have shorthand reference to the Beastiary creatures. I don't think the books have this feature, but maybe having it as part of the word count in the future would be a wise decision for ease of reference and gathering an idea for what summoned creatures can do. And to be clear, I don't think it needs to include every creature from every book, but even something as basic as the Beastiary 1 monsters should be enough of a list for a Core spell reliant on monsters to function.
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That does sound nice and flavory for sure. :D
Of course even if they would just add traits to gods with the sheer amount they already have...it would take a bit to do that.
Some players, such as my fiancée and many of my friends, have difficulty with digital mediums and prefer physical books - so, no, I don't think we should be doing things that would make it more difficult for accessibility (which isn't always equal to things being digital).[I]t puts a lot of work on players to comb through spells looking for traits.That would be an issue for dead tree users but not for PDF and AoN users. I think we need to move away from designs tied to the limitations of books and start embracing what newer methods allow us to do.
They would still have the books, they would just need to do a bit of extra work looking at spells by trait rather than using a search tool to pull that data for them.
I like magic mailbox as an RP spell. I used this spell in Kingmaker to set up communication networks, but it wasn't particularly helpful for combat. It was more of a cool roleplay effect that made the players feel their kingdom was a little cooler for having this communication method. That has value as well, but I don't think such things should be part of any class budget for combat as some imply.How could you set up any kind of network when it takes 1 hour to cast, and the duration only lasts a day?
Are you going to cast it on two chests and have a porter carry one of them to yonder town three days away? Even if you could get it there in time, it defeats the purpose as you literally just delivered the package, making the spell almost entirely moot.
More an NPC wizard thing. We set up an NPC wizard in the big cities who renewed the spell daily to create a mail network capable of transferring information. It was an NPC doing it.
That's what I mean by RP stuff. Stuff you would set up for NPCs or as a RP feature of your kingdom or adventuring place, but you'd never waste an actual spell slot on that.
As of right now, I don't know. I would prefer PF3E stay at least five years out, maybe more.
Given the Remaster, I'd say another decade is not improbable.
I like magic mailbox as an RP spell. I used this spell in Kingmaker to set up communication networks, but it wasn't particularly helpful for combat. It was more of a cool roleplay effect that made the players feel their kingdom was a little cooler for having this communication method. That has value as well, but I don't think such things should be part of any class budget for combat as some imply.How could you set up any kind of network when it takes 1 hour to cast, and the duration only lasts a day?
Are you going to cast it on two chests and have a porter carry one of them to yonder town three days away? Even if you could get it there in time, it defeats the purpose as you literally just delivered the package, making the spell almost entirely moot.
More an NPC wizard thing. We set up an NPC wizard in the big cities who renewed the spell daily to create a mail network capable of transferring information. It was an NPC doing it.
That's what I mean by RP stuff. Stuff you would set up for NPCs or as a RP feature of your kingdom or adventuring place, but you'd never waste an actual spell slot on that.
Highly Depends on your Playstyle, from what i read you running a very tight, efficient Boat. But if a group focuses more on RP stuff and invest in that side more its not just a "NPC" Spell. :)
I don't value focus spells nearly as much as slotted spells. They are designed to be weaker than slotted spells and if I was to choose class features for a class like the wizard I would want to put their weight and power budget into slotted spells, not focus spells. Which is what I believe the designers did. I don't think this is the right call for every class. I do think perhaps maybe it makes more sense that the sorcerer has good focus spells but less interaction with slots, same for witch as that class also feels as though thematically and mechanically it should care about focus spellsSpell slots are only as meaningful as the spells in them and the number of times you can use them.
A good focus spell is like having a max level spell slots multiple times per day. When I build my tempest surge druid as an example, I use that spell 3 to 5 times or more a day as I level up and get focus points. So I have 3 max level slots, then this really good single target max level damage spell that also debuffs I can use 1 to 3 times per encounter.
When I make an elemental wizard, I have a fireball equivalent I can use multiple times per encounter as well. Or a single target 1 action attack damage dealer I can use with a save spell.
Good focus spells are every bit as valuable as slots to me. I find them just as useful and I don't feel bad at all when they fail because I know I get them back with 10 minutes rest.
I don't think they are weaker than slotted spells. Less versatile, but can often do as much damage or prove as useful in a situation as a slotted spell. Some do effects spells can't usually accomplish that are very interesting and helpful.
I'd like the wizard to have focus spells that focus on their theme. Thematic focus spells greatly enhance a class and extend casting ability much longer than a few extra slots. They have to fit the playstyle of the class and work within the framework of PF2 including number of casting actions.
The wizard doesn't seem like it was built without much consideration for the underlying themes of schools or the overall abilities of the wizard.
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Highly Depends on your Playstyle, from what i read you running a very tight, efficient Boat. But if a group focuses more on RP stuff and invest in that side more its not just a "NPC" Spell. :)
What's gained by having these as slotted spells instead of 5e-style rituals? Utility shouldn't need to compete with power.
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...
Yeah the Wizards are always universalist if they choose or not.
Which is probably one source of the eternal debates about it.They cant really be like Characters in Golarion that just fill there Theme and even Call there proffession after there school (Necromancer as example).
Which of course is because they balace the Wizard or spellcasters in a way that requires them to take use of weakness to reach effectiveness, which makes it difficult to just furfill a theme they desire.
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Highly Depends on your Playstyle, from what i read you running a very tight, efficient Boat. But if a group focuses more on RP stuff and invest in that side more its not just a "NPC" Spell. :)What's gained by having these as slotted spells instead of 5e-style rituals? Utility shouldn't need to compete with power.
There is nothing to gain but i also think the balancing of spellcasting and magic in general seems rather flawed in 2E. I just dislike the classification as "NPC Spell" :)
So in writing my previous post I realized how the only difference in the description of Arcane and Occult was the specific mention of "arcane is bad at soul stuff" and "Bards focus on uplifting the soul". The formatting is relatively the same, the themes are the same, the overall logic of "study magic to cast magic" is the same. So the whole distintion between the two is entirely arbitrary.
In fact I would dare say that Occult is cheating precisely because it's just a "bard's arcane" list. Its identity is predicated on stealing from arcane to make sure that bard has a unique list that's different from the wizard.
Some of you still think essences are important, so think about it from that perspective. Cleric, Wizard, Druid used to be Life + Spirit, Spirit + Material, Material + Life: This is why Arcane could deal with necromancy even if it could not revive the dead or heal while Divine was bad at physical manipulation. But then look what happened when Occult was added it became: Divine (Life + Spirit), Occult (Spirit + Mind), Arcane (Spirit + Material), Primal (Material + Life). Occult split mind and spirit and took both of them for itself, while taking spirit away from Arcane. While also getting a monopoly on knowledge spells, soul manipulation, somehow getting healing, and getting preferential treatment with focus spells.
might be too late for you to edit your typo but arcane is mind+matter not spirit+matter. I would say if we applied essences to PF1 arcane was spirit, mind, matter and then cheated by raising undead and inflicting negative levels which was life magic. So the wizard in PF1 had everything but limited access to life in specific. Cleric was like spirit, life and matter because they got blasts and spells like Chains of Light
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I kind of wanna add with my idea here is something not wizard related, but still arcane related for this thread, which is a Cleric of Nethys should probably get arcane spells and perhaps even more. Something about clerics I always found disappointing is that the divine list, and in 1e the cleric list, is such a narrow range of spells that doesn't particularly fit most dieties or rather doesn't give enough. I think it would be cool if a cleric of Nethys could do something like the imperial sorcerer where you get a little spell book and in that can be spells from the arcane or perhaps any tradition. Whatever the limit should be. I think it would be pretty neatWhich could be solved with the Trait Idea :p
If Certain Deities give access to certain Traits in addition maybe to base cleric ones.Of course like most of my Idea they would be potential stuff for a 3rd Edition in terms of scope.
But in general yes more thematic fitting Spells for CLerics would be nice.
But that's sort of what they didn't want to do, which was make spells list for specific classes anymore.
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Occult is / should be manipulation of the intangible through study (Spiritual + Mental).
Divine is / should be manipulation of the intangible through faith (Spiritual + Vital).
Primal is / should be manipulation of the tangible through faith (Material + Vital).
Arcane is / should be manipulation of the tangible through study (Material + Mental).
If you are convinced that the Wizard is the caster who should master everything (Material + Spiritual) through study, then of course you will feel that Occult stole from Arcane. But PF2 does not work this way.
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I mean it doesn't work the way you described either. Life doesn't mean faith and Mental doesn't mean study (as evidenced by casters who can use both essences without either). They describe certain energies and applications of magic.
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I mean it doesn't work the way you described either. Life doesn't mean faith and Mental doesn't mean study (as evidenced by casters who can use both essences without either). They describe certain energies and applications of magic.
In the PF2 playtest, it was Vital, not Life. And the way I described explained why you could not have a Tradition of Mental + Vital or a Tradition of Material + Spiritual.
But things got muddled fast from the start because we had the additional dichotomy of Prepared vs Spontaneous, the reinclusion of spells in Arcane ...
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I don't care for the essence thing myself. I ignore it.
Just make cool spells for the wizard to use to get things done. It's magic forces being manipulated towards the wizard's goals. His list should be nearly unlimited.
And the way I described explained why you could not have a Tradition of Mental + Vital or a Tradition of Material + Spiritual.
I mean that's nice and all but again, that's not how the essences are described in any official material. We don't have "Mental + Vital" because Paizo didn't feel a need to create that list.
If they wanted one, we'd have it. That's all there really is to it.
I don't care for the essence thing myself. I ignore it.
Just make cool spells for the wizard to use to get things done. It's magic forces being manipulated towards the wizard's goals. His list should be nearly unlimited.
It's a pretty common trait in fantasy that the high knowledge, obsessed with studying caster cannot grasp the magic of those who are more in-tune with the natural world and are more about being one-with vs. manipulating.
So, no, they shouldn't have an unlimited list.
I don't care for the essence thing myself. I ignore it.
Just make cool spells for the wizard to use to get things done. Its magic forces being manipulated towards the wizard's goals. His list should be nearly unlimited.
that's like deciding to build a building but just ignore the math.
It's literally the opposite of everything Pathfinder 2 wants to be.
I don't care for the essence thing myself. I ignore it.
Just make cool spells for the wizard to use to get things done. Its magic forces being manipulated towards the wizard's goals. His list should be nearly unlimited.
that's like deciding to build a building but just ignore the math.
It's literally the opposite of everything Pathfinder 2 wants to be.
How does that analogy even apply? The spell lists are set. The essences don't matter for the spell lists at all. Some designer tossed on spells to lists, which is why the occult list is all over the place.
PF2 and the essences have nothing to do with each other. Just some cosmetic change of little relevance as proven by the spell lists having lots of crossover and being all over the place.
You can completely ignore essence concept and it has no effect on what PF2 is "trying to be" other than a playable, balanced game.
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I don't care for the essence thing myself. I ignore it.
Just make cool spells for the wizard to use to get things done. Its magic forces being manipulated towards the wizard's goals. His list should be nearly unlimited.
that's like deciding to build a building but just ignore the math.
It's literally the opposite of everything Pathfinder 2 wants to be.
How does that analogy even apply? The spell lists are set. The essences don't matter for the spell lists at all. Some designer tossed on spells to lists, which is why the occult list is all over the place.
PF2 and the essences have nothing to do with each other. Just some cosmetic change of little relevance as proven by the spell lists having lots of crossover and being all over the place.
You can completely ignore essence concept and it has no effect on what PF2 is "trying to be" other than a playable, balanced game.
it is central to PF2. because they decided they weren't going to make spells list by classes anymore.
Imperfections in an enterprise does not in itself render it invalid.
divine is well done
primal is well done.
occult and arcane could use some work. hopefully they use the remaster as an opportunity to clean it up a bit.
Imperfections in an enterprise does not in itself render it invalid.
It does when the enterprise itself is so flawed as to be indistinguishable from what came before it.
divine is well done
primal is well done.
The two lists that were already split before the devs even started working on PF1 were more successfully divided than Arcane and a concept made entirely fresh so the devs could avoid the labor or bespoke per class lists of spells. Say it isn't so.
occult and arcane could use some work. hopefully they use the remaster as an opportunity to clean it up a bit.
The remaster is already done except to get the print run into hands. There is almost zero chance that fixing this split was a priority given how rushed the whole process was.
I don't care for the essence thing myself. I ignore it.
Just make cool spells for the wizard to use to get things done. Its magic forces being manipulated towards the wizard's goals. His list should be nearly unlimited.
that's like deciding to build a building but just ignore the math.
It's literally the opposite of everything Pathfinder 2 wants to be.
How does that analogy even apply? The spell lists are set. The essences don't matter for the spell lists at all. Some designer tossed on spells to lists, which is why the occult list is all over the place.
PF2 and the essences have nothing to do with each other. Just some cosmetic change of little relevance as proven by the spell lists having lots of crossover and being all over the place.
You can completely ignore essence concept and it has no effect on what PF2 is "trying to be" other than a playable, balanced game.
it is central to PF2. because they decided they weren't going to make spells list by classes anymore.
Imperfections in an enterprise does not in itself render it invalid.
divine is well done
primal is well done.occult and arcane could use some work. hopefully they use the remaster as an opportunity to clean it up a bit.
You're not making much sense. I will continue to ignore essences. They mean nothing to me. Designers decide what is in a spell list. The lists should be balanced so they are effective for a class using them without regard for roleplay reasoning.
Not even sure why you're making the idea essences seem like it's that important to PF2 working. They aren't. Main thing is making the lists balanced, interesting, and useful.
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You're not making much sense. I will continue to ignore essences. They mean nothing to me. Designers decide what is in a spell list. The lists should be balanced so they are effective for a class using them without regard for roleplay reasoning.
Not even sure why you're making the idea essences seem like it's that important to PF2 working. They aren't. Main thing is making the lists balanced, interesting, and useful.
Essences are supposed to describe exactly that. It was originally supposed to be a balancing component that reduced some of the universality of casters, especially the wizard, for balance purposes. However it frequently came up that arcane kept getting spells added that don't fit specifically so the wizard could have them. If they stuck with this balancing principle much more strictly the arcane list would have even fewer spells than it does now
Essences are supposed to describe exactly that. It was originally supposed to be a balancing component that reduced some of the universality of casters, especially the wizard, for balance purposes. However it frequently came up that arcane kept getting spells added that don't fit specifically so the wizard could have them. If they stuck with this balancing principle much more strictly the arcane list would have even fewer spells than it does nowYou're not making much sense. I will continue to ignore essences. They mean nothing to me. Designers decide what is in a spell list. The lists should be balanced so they are effective for a class using them without regard for roleplay reasoning.
Not even sure why you're making the idea essences seem like it's that important to PF2 working. They aren't. Main thing is making the lists balanced, interesting, and useful.
It is not a balancing principle. It's an arbitrary way to divide up spells with some loose roleplay reasoning.
I would not spend much time thinking about it. You balance the lists by balancing the lists. Roleplay reasons are secondary which is why almost every list has haste and slow and lots of other shared spells.
Reading the lists all I see is certain core spells on every list like Dispel Magic. Lots of shared spells. Then some loose flavoring of spells that fit with the idea behind the essences. You can flavor anything to any list using the idea of essences.
I see no balancing between spell lists other than the usual of separating healing from the Arcane list.
It is not something players have to think about much unless they want to do use the essence idea for roleplay. The designers can flavor any spell to fit any list and have it do roughly the same thing and the balance will be fine.
I appreciate much the versatility of arcane. You have from magic missile, fly, to earthquake. And the Power Words are really cool.
Having all those options are a great resource, i.e. I have read about some "useless" spells like between others Magic Mailbox, but the combo of it with Telepathic Bond is a powerful feature when you have to split the party or for some situations.
When you can do things that can do the divine, others that can do the primal, and others that can do the occult, in more ways than the reverse, is not that bad at all.
I do not look so closely to raw numbers (that in any case will be small), when you play as anything can happen and have no idea about how you are going to face the next, that versatility is just amazing.
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Essences are supposed to describe exactly that. It was originally supposed to be a balancing component that reduced some of the universality of casters, especially the wizard, for balance purposes. However it frequently came up that arcane kept getting spells added that don't fit specifically so the wizard could have them. If they stuck with this balancing principle much more strictly the arcane list would have even fewer spells than it does nowYou're not making much sense. I will continue to ignore essences. They mean nothing to me. Designers decide what is in a spell list. The lists should be balanced so they are effective for a class using them without regard for roleplay reasoning.
Not even sure why you're making the idea essences seem like it's that important to PF2 working. They aren't. Main thing is making the lists balanced, interesting, and useful.
Those extra arcane spells that were added didn't have anything to do with balance. They were added because of tradition. because someone went this spell should be on the arcane list not because of balance, but because a wizard should have this, which is not the same as balance.
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Essences are supposed to describe exactly that. It was originally supposed to be a balancing component that reduced some of the universality of casters, especially the wizard, for balance purposes. However it frequently came up that arcane kept getting spells added that don't fit specifically so the wizard could have them. If they stuck with this balancing principle much more strictly the arcane list would have even fewer spells than it does nowYou're not making much sense. I will continue to ignore essences. They mean nothing to me. Designers decide what is in a spell list. The lists should be balanced so they are effective for a class using them without regard for roleplay reasoning.
Not even sure why you're making the idea essences seem like it's that important to PF2 working. They aren't. Main thing is making the lists balanced, interesting, and useful.
Those extra arcane spells that were added didn't have anything to do with balance. They were added because of tradition. because someone went this spell should be on the arcane list not because of balance, but because a wizard should have this, which is not the same as balance.
Posted this in another thread, but it's also relevant here:
Spells unique to one tradition: 160
** spoiler omitted **Spells shared between only two traditions: 537
** spoiler omitted **Spells shared between three traditions: 157
** spoiler omitted **Spells shared between all four traditions: 47
And yes, I know spell count doesn't matter since Arcane has a pile of very similar spells. But it's interesting. Arcane...
Thanks a lot for this.
What I find interesting too is how many spells a Tradition gets in total.
On a total of 901 spells :
Arcane gets 615 spells.
Divine gets 321 spells.
Occult gets 497 spells.
Primal gets 460 spells.
What I find interesting too is how many spells a Tradition gets in total.
On a total of 901 spells :
Arcane gets 615 spells.
Divine gets 321 spells.
Occult gets 497 spells.
Primal gets 460 spells.
Yep but the fact of the matter is every tradition has a couple of good spells at every level and at least a half dozen reasonable spells. I have checked. This is before you think about heightened spells.
Paizo value the traditions the same and it is more or less true. Why because it is mostly about actions and opportunity cost. That is the most limiting factor with spells. What you can cast in a round.
Every Divine caster (except the witch of course) has got ways of picking up a few spells from other traditions. To help cover any gaps.
With Rage of Elements every caster now has a reasonable attack cantrip and a shield cantrip option.
The divine witch most certainly can pick up spells from other traditions with ease. They have class feats for it
Which feat? Because I was discounting the lessons as the spells there are so so.
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What I find interesting too is how many spells a Tradition gets in total.
On a total of 901 spells :
Arcane gets 615 spells.
Divine gets 321 spells.
Occult gets 497 spells.
Primal gets 460 spells.
Yep but the fact of the matter is every tradition has a couple of good spells at every level and at least a half dozen reasonable spells. I have checked. This is before you think about heightened spells.
Paizo value the traditions the same and it is more or less true. Why because it is mostly about actions and opportunity cost. That is the most limiting factor with spells. What you can cast in a round.
Every Divine caster (except the witch of course) has got ways of picking up a few spells from other traditions. To help cover any gaps.
With Rage of Elements every caster now has a reasonable attack cantrip and a shield cantrip option.
The Cleric has the spells their deity gives them.
If those are not the spells you want, what do you do ? Change deity ?
I mean in theory they all give 3 spells which should be of similar value. Either way that is just kind of what building for flavour does, I don't take cross-bloodied evolution a lot because I don't think it fits a lot of my sorcerers but I will acknowledge that it would probably making them stronger if I did take it.I'm pretty sure if you cared enough about a deities spells enough you would probably pick them during character creation.Then it becomes a choice between RP/flavor and power. Not the kind of choice the rules should encourage IMO.Yeah I've always found crossblooded evolution to be an autopick for my sorcerers regardless of tradition. Every tradition is at some level incomplete.
Arcane: wants healing. Heal, harm. Or synesthesia for better debuffing.
Divine: wants Reflex saves blasting and debuffing. Cone of cold, fireball, chain lightning, slow, synesthesia, hideous laughter, confusion.
Occult: wants blasting. Cone of cold, fireball, chain lightning, finger of death, vampiric exsanguination, eclipse burst. Heal or harm for healing aren't bad either because Soothe has bad scaling.
Primal: wants buffing and debuffing. Synesthesia, confusion, hideous laughter, heroism. Maybe some fort save blasting like vampiric exsanguination too.
But depending on deity spells you can patch some of that up with blessed blood if you're divine. Still probably worth taking crossblooded though, divine list is a little scant on both reflex save blasting AND debuffing.
I think it's no coincidence arcane is looking for the least, occult I think tries to find more spells that target defenses other than will since it has so few in addition to more damage options if it wants them. Arcane just wants a few very specific spells and not whole categories of spells
I think it's no coincidence arcane is looking for the least, occult I think tries to find more spells that target defenses other than will since it has so few in addition to more damage options if it wants them. Arcane just wants a few very specific spells and not whole categories of spellsI mean in theory they all give 3 spells which should be of similar value. Either way that is just kind of what building for flavour does, I don't take cross-bloodied evolution a lot because I don't think it fits a lot of my sorcerers but I will acknowledge that it would probably making them stronger if I did take it.I'm pretty sure if you cared enough about a deities spells enough you would probably pick them during character creation.Then it becomes a choice between RP/flavor and power. Not the kind of choice the rules should encourage IMO.Yeah I've always found crossblooded evolution to be an autopick for my sorcerers regardless of tradition. Every tradition is at some level incomplete.
Arcane: wants healing. Heal, harm. Or synesthesia for better debuffing.
Divine: wants Reflex saves blasting and debuffing. Cone of cold, fireball, chain lightning, slow, synesthesia, hideous laughter, confusion.
Occult: wants blasting. Cone of cold, fireball, chain lightning, finger of death, vampiric exsanguination, eclipse burst. Heal or harm for healing aren't bad either because Soothe has bad scaling.
Primal: wants buffing and debuffing. Synesthesia, confusion, hideous laughter, heroism. Maybe some fort save blasting like vampiric exsanguination too.
But depending on deity spells you can patch some of that up with blessed blood if you're divine. Still probably worth taking crossblooded though, divine list is a little scant on both reflex save blasting AND debuffing.
Pretty much. Arcane's biggest flaw is the lack of exclusive spells. It can do a large amount of things, but it also can't do everything the best, either, while still having one obvious issue (which was fine in previous editions, where in-combat healing wasn't necessary).
I think it's no coincidence arcane is looking for the least, occult I think tries to find more spells that target defenses other than will since it has so few in addition to more damage options if it wants them. Arcane just wants a few very specific spells and not whole categories of spellsI mean in theory they all give 3 spells which should be of similar value. Either way that is just kind of what building for flavour does, I don't take cross-bloodied evolution a lot because I don't think it fits a lot of my sorcerers but I will acknowledge that it would probably making them stronger if I did take it.I'm pretty sure if you cared enough about a deities spells enough you would probably pick them during character creation.Then it becomes a choice between RP/flavor and power. Not the kind of choice the rules should encourage IMO.Yeah I've always found crossblooded evolution to be an autopick for my sorcerers regardless of tradition. Every tradition is at some level incomplete.
Arcane: wants healing. Heal, harm. Or synesthesia for better debuffing.
Divine: wants Reflex saves blasting and debuffing. Cone of cold, fireball, chain lightning, slow, synesthesia, hideous laughter, confusion.
Occult: wants blasting. Cone of cold, fireball, chain lightning, finger of death, vampiric exsanguination, eclipse burst. Heal or harm for healing aren't bad either because Soothe has bad scaling.
Primal: wants buffing and debuffing. Synesthesia, confusion, hideous laughter, heroism. Maybe some fort save blasting like vampiric exsanguination too.
But depending on deity spells you can patch some of that up with blessed blood if you're divine. Still probably worth taking crossblooded though, divine list is a little scant on both reflex save blasting AND debuffing.
When I play an Occult sorcerer, I look for one good blast spell with Cross-blooded.
I avoid taking mental spells because you get Occult Evolution which allows you to pick up a mental spell as needed throughout the day.