| 14 people marked this as a favorite. |
Will do a longer playtest writeup after a few more combats but a brief comment.
Between sustaining vessel spells (possibly multiple of them or a vessel and a normal spell or who knows what), positioning, setting up stances (ngl wouldn't mind seeing a couple more of these), taking other class actions, along with normal things like skill checks or strikes, the class is incredibly busy and it can feel very difficult to fit everything you want to do in a turn in a turn.
I actually think this is a really good thing and important for the class' health. This isn't like the Magus or swashbuckler, where you're constrained by a very rigid routine. The animist has a lot of valid options in any given combat and at any given moment there might be multiple correct answers for whatever you're doing, but you're constrained by only having 2-3 actions per turn (and even haste only helps so much because a lot of your good stuff is specific).
I've seen a number of posts expressing the desire for more action economy compression in the Animist, like better sustain options or free action sustains, and after playing around with the class a bit more I think this would be a really bad idea.
The high constraints of action economy both create a lot of tension when deciding how to best act in a round (a hugely important feature when contrasting with other classes that have very static routines) and acts as a power limiter on some of the higher value things an animist can do.
Cheap action economy solutions would ruin that. If anything I think there's room to make the rules even tighter, like taking Leap out of sustaining dance.
There are a handful of things that make the Animist kind of awkward to play, but I think those things are absolutely essential to making them work. Please keep them weird.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just had a similar experience.
The party was having a heck of a time getting past damage resistance (our martials were a Champion and Anger Phantom). I was on healing duty sustaining my garden of healing and keeping everyone topped off but near the end I spent 3 turns to sustain, change apparitions, cast embodiment of battle, sustain twice, grip my bastard sword with 2 hands, sustain twice again and FINALLY strike...but when I did, that single strike actually did more damage than everyone else was able to do collectively due to the damage resistance cancelling out so much of the d8 attacks vs my d12.
Our buffs were winding down and we were free to retreat which we did but I found it hilarious that I was able to pull off some good damage even though it was a huge hassle.
My main concern is that encounters are typically much quicker and this encounter was a complex hazard that was going nowhere fast and I'm worried that the channeler Animist might take too long to swap apparitions effectively. Sure, the swapping to a 2-hand grip could have been done ahead of time, but positioning is also a very vital part of this class that is going to eat up actions for striding at times.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I haven't gotten to actually play one of my animist yet, mostly built a couple to experiment and did some solo testing. But this is actually one of the things i like the most about the animist. One of my favorite things to do in 2e is to *not* have a rotation, i like having conflicting actions, i like having different types of reactions. Sure i can't use them all the time, but thats because i can use each thing at the right time. One of my most beloved characters was a thaumaturge who had lots of options thanks to skill feats, archetypes, and their implements.
Animist called out to me because of that tightness in the economy combined with the options they have. Seeing other like minded people enjoy the parts of the class that has me intrigued is good to hear.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I completely agree with the OP.
As it is currently designed this is a class for the player who pays attention to the battle (especially positioning) and can juggle lots of options and who ENJOYS doing so.
The action economy is fine. Its tight but with Dance its generally doable. But it forces you to pay attention and think things through. Loosening it up would be a bad idea.
There are a few individual exceptions to that (eg, if you're flying via Forest Form's aerial form the economy of taking 2 actions just to fly is going to kill you unless the GM allows you to leap from one spot in the air to another spot).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I had a different experience: managing the Animist’s action economy felt really restrictive and repetitive, because some options were consistently far better than others, and so almost always took precedence. Sustaining my vessel spell almost always took priority, which meant spellshape feats never felt worth including. Stances were similarly too costly to use most of the time, but Sustaining Dance felt mandatory due to the mobility it afforded.
As for my turns, most of them at low level boiled down to sustaining my vessel spell and casting cantrips, Earth’s Bile + Needle Darts in particular being a common turn. This felt exceedingly repetitive, but also far stronger than most alternatives. Thus, I don’t feel the Animist has particularly diverse turns or that much choice, at least from my own experience.
Part of the issue right now I feel stems from the sheer power of vessel spells, which make alternatives much less attractive by comparison. Even with more balanced focus spells, though, I feel sustaining one as part of the class’s core intended gameplay loop is going to be very limiting without more ways of compressing the Sustain action. Sustaining Dance in my opinion is a feat that should be used as an example for more like it, not nerfed, with the caveat that the Animist could afford to have more power if Sustaining a vessel spell didn’t automatically trigger its powerful effect (though using the powerful effect likely should Sustain the spell).
|
I haven't got to play yet but to me it seems really right to me...
Basically 2 good options. Caster version...
Sustain 3x Vessel Spell
Sustain 1x Vessel Spell + 2 actions (90% of the time I feel it would be spell)
Fighting version.
Start combat with a good spell+move/start sustain (embodiment or shapeshift)
Sustain + attack + other action
Correct me if I am wrong but it seems like a huge cost to switch apparitions in combat. Most battles for me last 2-3 rounds.
I do like that I have the option to change up my turns but the opportunity cost just seems so high to me. Do people feel they are more effective constantly switch vessels spells mid combat?
Other casters get to just cast whatever focus spells they want whenever they want.
|
|
I do like that I have the option to change up my turns but the opportunity cost just seems so high to me. Do people feel they are more effective constantly switch vessels spells mid combat?
Other casters get to just cast whatever focus spells they want whenever they want.
I think this was my biggest pain point. If swapping apparitions was cut to 0 actions but limited to once per 10 minutes, those 3 turns I pointed out in my previous comment would have been cut down to 2, and again, all I was trying to do was strike with a 2-handed weapon. I know my situation was very specific and might not be the best example but...I don't know....I'm starting to get the impression that maybe having two vessel spells active is not the way this class wants to typically play unless you're trying to just keep up supportive aura vessel spells.
Channeler might appear super strong but in practice might be paying a very high price with their action economy, especially when they plan on sustaining 2 vessel spells. I think it's ideal usage is just to be able to swap apparitions when the one you have is definitely not fit for the current situation and not to take on 2 roles at once and be expected to use them effectively at the same time. Sage definitely still needs a buff though. It's starting off with way too situational abilities, whereas the channeler is like the complete opposite of that.
Still, it might be the most dynamic class I've seen which makes it super fun.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think this was my biggest pain point.I do like that I have the option to change up my turns but the opportunity cost just seems so high to me. Do people feel they are more effective constantly switch vessels spells mid combat?
Other casters get to just cast whatever focus spells they want whenever they want.
I find the current cost manageable. My basic plan was to cast Vile, go into stance and whirl into Forest Form round1, then sustain sustain strike from then on.
But the ability to change my plan and go full on healer proved very valuable one combat where things went south. So, some of the flexibility is there for emergencies or for strange situations. And given the flexibility is almost free I think the constrained action economy is a reasonable tradeoff.
My one worry is that they will substantially change action economy after playtest. That would invalidate a whole lot of the Playtest feedback.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Channeler might appear super strong but in practice might be paying a very high price with their action economy, especially when they plan on sustaining 2 vessel spells. I think it's ideal usage is just to be able to swap apparitions when the one you have is definitely not fit for the current situation and not to take on 2 roles at once and be expected to use them effectively at the same time. Sage definitely still needs a buff though. It's starting off with way too situational abilities, whereas the channeler is like the complete opposite of that.
This is my feeling as well. On paper, the Channeler reads as massively better than the Sage, and to a certain extent it’s true, but I think people are also severely underestimating how troublesome it is to fit that extra action into the Animist’s turn. It’s very useful when the occasion calls for it (having Garden of Healing in your back pocket for when people need healing is always good), but it’s also not what will let the Animist use all of their vessel spells at once, not that you’d really want to.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My one worry is that they will substantially change action economy after playtest. That would invalidate a whole lot of the Playtest feedback.
I haven't participated in a playtest since Thaumaturge, but if I remember correctly, Paizo usually ends up overall buffing the final printing. This might end up being the first instance of them not doing that but I trust they will give us an equally (if not more) enjoyable final product that plays mostly the same. I'm sure they know that we like it so far and they'll more specifically target what individual parts the majority likes/dislikes the most, keep/throw out those respectively and balance as needed.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel the Channeler's action let's you access other abilities in an emergency. Whereas the Sage one adresses a very specific issue.
Maybe all Animists should be able to switch their primary Apparition once per encounter and then the practices keep their current actions.
The Channeler would not be the automatic goto practice anymore, while still having a fitting ability that is needed only in rather uncommon circumstances, just like the Sage. I mean, how often do you need to change your primary Apparition twice or more in an encounter ?
|
|
My one worry is that they will substantially change action economy after playtest. That would invalidate a whole lot of the Playtest feedback.I haven't participated in a playtest since Thaumaturge, but if I remember correctly, Paizo usually ends up overall buffing the final printing. This might end up being the first instance of them not doing that but I trust they will give us an equally (if not more) enjoyable final product that plays mostly the same. I'm sure they know that we like it so far and they'll more specifically target what individual parts the majority likes/dislikes the most, keep/throw out those respectively and balance as needed.
On the specific question of the action economy current opinion on the boards is very much split. If this is true of the actual playtest surveys Paizo will be in an awkward position.
But you're right. So far they've been mostly making pretty good decisions and I mostly trust them to get things mostly right. Mostly :-).
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My one worry is that they will substantially change action economy after playtest. That would invalidate a whole lot of the Playtest feedback.I haven't participated in a playtest since Thaumaturge, but if I remember correctly, Paizo usually ends up overall buffing the final printing. This might end up being the first instance of them not doing that but I trust they will give us an equally (if not more) enjoyable final product that plays mostly the same. I'm sure they know that we like it so far and they'll more specifically target what individual parts the majority likes/dislikes the most, keep/throw out those respectively and balance as needed.On the specific question of the action economy current opinion on the boards is very much split. If this is true of the actual playtest surveys Paizo will be in an awkward position.
But you're right. So far they've been mostly making pretty good decisions and I mostly trust them to get things mostly right. Mostly :-).
If the survey ends up 50/50, I trust Paizo to do what will be the most fun for them. Which should be fun for most of us too in the end.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My issue with the action economy is with the Channeler practice. If the only point to swapping during an encounter is to use sustained Focus Spells, then it's untenable.
I was on healing duty sustaining my garden of healing and keeping everyone topped off but near the end I spent 3 turns to sustain, change apparitions, cast embodiment of battle, sustain twice, grip my bastard sword with 2 hands, sustain twice again and FINALLY strike...but when I did, that single strike actually did more damage than everyone else was able to do collectively due to the damage resistance cancelling out so much of the d8 attacks vs my d12.
The above example, which the poster concluded was fun, does not sound appealing at all to me. Spending three turns until he finally attacked? And it's not a function of being a Channeler animist that let him do some awesome amount of damage, he wielded a d12 weapon instead of a d8 weapon with a +1 status bonus to hit and damage. Or you could have been a bard with Soothe and fighter MCD and accomplished the same thing except also given your allies +1 to hit and damage.
PF2 doesn't support the old 1e playstyle of spend the first 3 rounds buffing yourself and then unleashing uber attacks because your team will get beat pretty hard while you stand around prepping.
However, that does not mean the Channeler needs a free sustain--I'm one person who suggested that as part of the Apparition's Whirl action--but it does mean that an apparition needs to give something more valuable to make a player want to whirl.
|
|
I was on healing duty sustaining my garden of healing and keeping everyone topped off but near the end I spent 3 turns to sustain, change apparitions, cast embodiment of battle, sustain twice, grip my bastard sword with 2 hands, sustain twice again and FINALLY strike...but when I did, that single strike actually did more damage than everyone else was able to do collectively due to the damage resistance cancelling out so much of the d8 attacks vs my d12.The above example, which the poster concluded was fun, does not sound appealing at all to me. Spending three turns until he finally attacked? And it's not a function of being a Channeler animist that let him do some awesome amount of damage, he wielded a d12 weapon instead of a d8 weapon with a +1 status bonus to hit and damage. Or you could have been a bard with Soothe and fighter MCD and accomplished the same thing except also given your allies +1 to hit and damage.
Lol. No, spending 3 actions to make a single strike wasn't the fun part. That was the hilarious part and purely based on how it really wasn't fun but there was no real immediate threat in a seemingly dangerous situation and my character was more or less asking the party to be patient as he slow-poked his way to doing their job better PURELY cuz he brought a higher base damage weapon.
The fun part was being able to swap but I learned it is so demanding of action economy that it's not feasible to sustain 2 vessel spells at once, so you really need to make the right decision if the situation is pulling at you in 2 directions.
However, that does not mean the Channeler needs a free sustain--I'm one person who suggested that as part of the Apparition's Whirl action--but it does mean that an apparition needs to give something more valuable to make a player want to whirl.
That's assuming Whirl should be high value to begin with. Given the current design of both Whirl (and the Sage for that matter) I'm not sure it really should be.
It's something that sits in your back pocket if you need to swap, but generally you won't engage with either feature right now... and given that the class is already so borderline, buffing them much would have to come at a big cost somewhere else.
However, that does not mean the Channeler needs a free sustain--I'm one person who suggested that as part of the Apparition's Whirl action--but it does mean that an apparition needs to give something more valuable to make a player want to whirl.That's assuming Whirl should be high value to begin with. Given the current design of both Whirl (and the Sage for that matter) I'm not sure it really should be.
It's something that sits in your back pocket if you need to swap, but generally you won't engage with either feature right now... and given that the class is already so borderline, buffing them much would have to come at a big cost somewhere else.
Of that's the intent, it ought to be a feat rather than the starting feature of a subclass--like Meld Eidolon.
EDIT:
And, honestly, as much as I love my 1e Rivethun Spirit Channeler, it would be easier to ditch Whirl as part of a practice. Give both Channeler and Sage something different that's more defining and routinely useful.
|
|
I learned it is so demanding of action economy that it's not feasible to sustain 2 vessel spells at once, so you really need to make the right decision if the situation is pulling at you in 2 directions.
I vehemently disagree. Being able to step/leap twice a round, strike an opponent at your full MAP AND throw a decent AoE spell seems like a FINE default plan to me.
I haven't played at 1st level but from 2nd on your action economy is a little tight but perfectly reasonable.
I suspect that it might be an issue again at higher levels when mobility can become extreme on both sides of the table. But from L2 to probably the low to mid teens at least it's VERY feasible to keep 2 vessel spells going at once.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
tbh with the ability to leap 15/20 feet per sustain without a ton of investment I almost feel like it's a little too easy to keep two spells rolling.
You definitely have to change how you play when you do it, since losing grudge strikes and access to most spells hurts, but double sustain is very doable and you have a lot of mobility while keeping it up.
... Though if you aren't a martial animist you might as well just take the extra step and go for triple sustain at that point tbh.
If anything I think there's room to make the rules even tighter, like taking Leap out of sustaining dance.
There are a handful of things that make the Animist kind of awkward to play, but I think those things are absolutely essential to making them work. Please keep them weird.
I would definitely agree with that. For the most part. I like the idea of keeping the Leap available, but limiting it to the standard 10 foot distance no matter what other feats or effects you have.
So you can either Step (possibly up to 10 feet if you have something that increases your Step distance) and not provoke reactions, or Leap 10 feet (possibly over gaps or difficult terrain) but you do provoke.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the frustration with the action economy I was experiencing was due to using embodiment of battle, which requires an additional action to strike to make any use of it at all. Darkened forest form is also the same in needing to take additional actions to make it worthwhile, as does river carving mountains needing a stride. The trouble with garden of healing and discomf[xxx]ing whispers is you need to position yourself well which sustaining dance helps immensely but is still a bit of a requirement. Earth's bile is the only one where you can take that single casting or sustain action and not need to take any additional action or worry about your own positioning.
So currently for a channeler, for 3 of the vessel spells (battle, forest form, river), if you are already sustaining a vessel spell and want to swap and start running another one in tandem, you need to spend an entire turn (sustain, swap, cast vessel spell) just to get any payoff on the following turn. 2 others (garden and whispers) might need a similar rotation if you didn't take sustaining dance. Only 1 (earth's bile) will hardly ever require you to take additional actions to get results though you still need your party to position themselves so they don't get damaged.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
FWIW I was using embodiment of battle too, I feel like it's the most fun way to play the animist.
In that scenario I think I'd rather sustain > swap > strike and then on the next turn sustain > vessel > strike.
I agree that it can be kind of difficult to put these things together in the best way, but imo that's part of the strength of the class from a design perspective. You don't want easy answers.
Easy answers gives us starlit span recharging and spellstriking every round or a bard casting a spell and using a one action composition. Excrutiatingly boring. The animist not fitting together nicely is a really nice change of pace.
Though I think the point highlights two concerns I do think are significant: Sustaining Dance is too important, but also in particular River Carving Mountain is just kind of bad. Two actions to generate a few squares of difficult terrain is just... not good unless you have a battle map with really strict choke points, especially when you have to re-up the difficult terrain every turn and when you have to stand in the square to generate it.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sustaining Dance is too important
With the Animist as it currently is it as close to an absolutely essential pick as currently exists in the game.
Even if you're planning on going all in with Darkened Forest or Embodiment you still really, really need this or otherwise you're basically a 2 action class.
Dance might also be VERY abusable in other builds if taken via an animist archetype.
Not sure what the solution is. Making it part of the class chassis means that nobody accidently shoots themself in the foot by failing to take it which is good but it frees up a feat on a class that is almost too good already.
Maybe something weird like giving it automatically but getting no 2nd level class feat?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think removing second level class feat would both feel bad and be too out of the norml system expectations.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I remember back in the playtest when Sorcerer got their later focus spells automatically but didn't have class feats at those levels where they got them.
The public outcry was enough to cause them to change it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How's this for a potential alternative:
This would change the Animist's action economy in two major ways: the first is that Sustaining a vessel spell would be easier, if still somewhat restricted, and the second is that effects like Sustaining Dance wouldn't be so overloaded, because using that instead of your vessel spell effect would merely keep it going instead of also activating its powerful effect on top of two extra actions in one.
For instance, let's take Vanguard of Roaring Waters:
Sustaining Maneuver (1-action)
Feat 1
Traits: Animist, Apparition
You use forceful movements to channel spiritual energy like a roiling current. You Shove or Trip, then Sustain.
---
The specifics don't really matter, but it's just some effect that could work as an alternative to the vessel spell:
River Carving Mountains (1-action)
Focus 1
Traits: Uncommon, Animist, Water
Duration sustained up to 1 minute
Your apparition solidifies around you into roaring water and spraying mist. For the duration of this spell, you have lesser cover against ranged attacks, gain a +5-foot status bonus to your Speeds, and gain the Flow Like Water action listed below. You also Flow Like Water when you Cast this Spell.
Flow Like Water (1-action) You Stride up to your Speed while your apparition fills each square you pass through with the lingering energy of a coursing river. These squares become difficult terrain until the start of your next turn. You can use river carving mountains while Burrowing, Climbing, Flying, or Swimming instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement type.
---
Instead of requiring two actions each turn to do the vessel spell's special effect, you'd only require one. You could therefore use the sustaining action once and then do something else, like cast another spell, or use Sustaining Maneuver to do something else entirely if you want a different turn that doesn't involve moving.
Kinda just responding to things i've seen sorry for the lack of multiquote.
I'm gonna go on a limb and say Vessel spells are going to get the composition treatment - only one at a time.
Someone mentioned spellshape further up. That's an interesting design space for action compression. A spellshape + sustain feat.
Hmmm, what if River, Battle, Forest gave you a Stride / Strike / Ath Maneuveur (?) on sustain? They do operate differently than Bile and Grove.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I concur with the sentiment above that Sustaning Dance is powerful, FAR too powerful to be an "optional" Class Feat because, for all intents and purposes, it is just about as close to a mandatory pick for the Class as any other Feat that's ever been published for ANY Class in PF2.
I don't know WHAT they'd exchange in the first few levels for this to be granted as an automatically provided Class Ability around that point but something has to give, that is, unless they simply intend to provide that completely for free and allow the Animist to actually choose something at level 2 instead of grabbing that most basic and powerful action tax reduction ability.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I concur with the sentiment above that Sustaning Dance is powerful, FAR too powerful to be an "optional" Class Feat because, for all intents and purposes, it is just about as close to a mandatory pick for the Class as any other Feat that's ever been published for ANY Class in PF2.
I'm not going to disagree with that - though I will mention that I am not planning on taking it for my character build. I'm also trying out Sage instead of Channeler, so I will have much less desire to try to be sustaining more than one spell at a time.
But I am curious if you still rate the feat that high if it had a maximum distance moved limit in the feat that overrides any spell, potion, or character ability.
Basically, if Sustaining Dance only ever let you move at most 10 feet (to pick an arbitrary low-ish number), would it still feel like a must-pick?
How about if it also had a 'frequency: once per turn' limit?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't really think sustained dance is mandatory. Movement is a nice tag on for a sustain class but this is a class that will never have 3 actions available for spells in encounter mode. That is a big limiter. The River power seems to intentionally not interact with just the sustain. i dont mind that but I wish the focus spell interacted better with something else in the animist's tool kit because right now it doesn't. The crafty battlefield controller that is difficult to hit and slows everyone dow is a cool build but difficult to get going.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It may depend to some extent on the build but as the class currently stands it really IS all but essential for a lot of builds.
You've essentially become a permanently slowed class for most builds. Just imagine what happens if you're actually slowed as well. Have fun with your Witness to Ancient Battles when you're slowed 1. All opponents have to do to totally shut you down is to just move away from you every round.
I think pretty much the only viable build is the character spamming Earth's Bile (with another spell any round they don't have to move or do something else). And I'm assuming that there will be SOME limitation or other on Earth's Bile in the final release (it is totally broken if you can just spam 3 Earth's Bile spells a round).
You've essentially become a permanently slowed class for most builds.
Could the same be said for Bard and Inspire Courage? Lingering Composition is also a very commonly picked feat. Is it as much of a must-pick as is being claimed for Sustaining Dance?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Could the same be said for Bard and Inspire Courage? Lingering Composition is also a very commonly picked feat. Is it as much of a must-pick as is being claimed for Sustaining Dance?
Yes, but maestro Bard gets it automatically...so what you're saying is the sage should automatically get sustaining dance, right? ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, I'm absolutely an outsider here. I will never play an Animist, but... what if there were other options, that were also feats?
"sustain and half-stride", "sustain and leap", "sustain and intimidate", "sustain and interact", "sustain and change apparition", and so forth. Possibly make each of them 1/turn. So yeah, you pretty much have to have at least one of them, but you can get a bit of flexibility on which one. You can sprinkle them around the feat tree so that they're not all early on, and they can get more spiritual awesomeness as you go up in level. There's diminishing returns there, but getting two or three options might be pretty useful, especially if you hope to sustain more than one at a time... and yeah, that can wind up with you pulling off some pretty nice stuff, but it also needs some setup, and it's soaking up a nontrivial number of class feats. It maybe gives you a bit more action efficiency, but it's not simplifying things at all.
Could the same be said for Bard and Inspire Courage? Lingering Composition is also a very commonly picked feat. Is it as much of a must-pick as is being claimed for Sustaining Dance?Yes, but maestro Bard gets it automatically...so what you're saying is the sage should automatically get sustaining dance, right? ;)
Something like that, maybe. Though, I would expect that Channeler players would want something like Multifarious Muse so that they can get it too.
"sustain and half-stride", "sustain and leap", "sustain and intimidate", "sustain and interact", "sustain and change apparition", and so forth.
Sounds a lot like the various 'reload and ...' abilities of Gunslinger.
|
|
Something like that, maybe. Though, I would expect that Channeler players would want something like Multifarious Muse so that they can get it too.Could the same be said for Bard and Inspire Courage? Lingering Composition is also a very commonly picked feat. Is it as much of a must-pick as is being claimed for Sustaining Dance?Yes, but maestro Bard gets it automatically...so what you're saying is the sage should automatically get sustaining dance, right? ;)
You could just...give the ability to sages and not make it a feat... XD
If the sage really is the more martially inclined, that might be best as I think a martial is going to care more about placement than a caster due to more limited ranges. Also, they could make it to where you can either step or leap then sustain OR sustain then leap or step.
|
|
You've essentially become a permanently slowed class for most builds.Could the same be said for Bard and Inspire Courage? Lingering Composition is also a very commonly picked feat. Is it as much of a must-pick as is being claimed for Sustaining Dance?
Without Lingering Composition, you are a stationary caster. If you need to move, or RK or cast Shield, you cannot use your best ability (aka casting spells) at the same time.
It is a pretty big gamble. And yet, Bard is helped by Inspire Courage having a 60ft radius.
Animist without Sustaining Dance has it worse.
So, I'm absolutely an outsider here. I will never play an Animist, but... what if there were other options, that were also feats?
"sustain and half-stride", "sustain and leap", "sustain and intimidate", "sustain and interact", "sustain and change apparition", and so forth. Possibly make each of them 1/turn. So yeah, you pretty much have to have at least one of them, but you can get a bit of flexibility on which one. You can sprinkle them around the feat tree so that they're not all early on, and they can get more spiritual awesomeness as you go up in level. There's diminishing returns there, but getting two or three options might be pretty useful, especially if you hope to sustain more than one at a time... and yeah, that can wind up with you pulling off some pretty nice stuff, but it also needs some setup, and it's soaking up a nontrivial number of class feats. It maybe gives you a bit more action efficiency, but it's not simplifying things at all.
offering up to many sustain and options might be a waste of feat space if the end result is that most characters pick one or two that is the thing they will always use like an extra action. At that point it is essentially just effortless concentration but at earlier levels and taking up more book space. Limited movement is an interesting alternative because it is closer to a half action than a full. It is like only being slowed .5 instead of 1. But if sustained dance is given away or integrated into the class the river focus spell has to change, as it is the only one that really doesn’t get anything out of sustained dance at all.
Alternately, more newer focus powers could also not really need or benefit from an extra .5 action’s worth of movement and it could stay optional.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
offering up to many sustain and options might be a waste of feat space if the end result is that most characters pick one or two that is the thing they will always use like an extra action. At that point it is essentially just effortless concentration but at earlier levels and taking up more book space.
Well, I was thinking it would also be like Gunslinger's 'reload and' abilities in that you get one of them from your subclass choice.
So Sage would get 'sustain and recall knowledge', Channeler would get 'sustain and switch active Apparition', and Spirit Dancer would get 'sustain and stride up to half your speed without provoking reactions'.
'Need to sustain in order to use my class's abilities' is very similar to 'need to reload in order to use my class's abilities', so why not solve the problem in the same way?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
offering up to many sustain and options might be a waste of feat space if the end result is that most characters pick one or two that is the thing they will always use like an extra action. At that point it is essentially just effortless concentration but at earlier levels and taking up more book space. Limited movement is an interesting alternative because it is closer to a half action than a full. It is like only being slowed .5 instead of 1. But if sustained dance is given away or integrated into the class the river focus spell has to change, as it is the only one that really doesn’t get anything out of sustained dance at all.
Alternately, more newer focus powers could also not really need or benefit from an extra .5 action’s worth of movement and it could stay optional.
I think you're missing a few things about the proposal I had offered.
- It's meant to be more of a half-action than a full action, especially at lower levels, and each feat is meant to be a specific half-action. These things are deliberately a lot less valuable than effortless, at least for the low-to-mid levels.
- You get access to better versions as you level up. You probably wont' want more than one to three at any given time, but you might well want to pick up new ones and retrain out old ones as you go.
- It's specifically intended to support sustaining more than one thing at a time as a viable strategy - possibly up as far as filling all three actions with sustain+ actions. At the same time, each of these feats can only be used once per turn, which means that if you want to do that, then you need to buy more than one of them.
...and I wasn't proposing that sustained dance be integrated into the class - rather than you make it an explicit choice,a nd a more interesting choice, by offering multiple options.
So you basically run into a situation where the number of these feats that you want is going to depend on how heavily you want to have sustains eating your action economy. A lower-level version might let you sustain and stride for half distance while an upper level version let you go the same distance but it's a teleport, and something interesting happens in the area immediately around the square you'd moved from.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
'Need to sustain in order to use my class's abilities' is very similar to 'need to reload in order to use my class's abilities', so why not solve the problem in the same way?
The context is different, imo.
Animists are powerful and juggling their action economy is central to their gameplay loop right now. The more you do to make it easier, the more you tip balance in the wrong direction. The issue of sustain is an important counterbalance to how useful the spells are.
Gunslingers are starting from the opposite position, because reload weapons are bad on purpose. You need that extra layer of support in order to try to prop up their core concept.
Same reason the Magus' recharge options are mostly tied to focus points or skill checks instead of being automatic like gunslinger reloads, because the core activity is actually good in the first place.
Animists are powerful and juggling their action economy is central to their gameplay loop right now. The more you do to make it easier, the more you tip balance in the wrong direction. The issue of sustain is an important counterbalance to how useful the spells are.
I can only speak for myself, but I'd much rather have a class that's balanced and feels good to play than the opposite.