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Wisdom-based divine spellcaster.
Trained in simple weapons.
Trained in up to medium armor.
Trained in Fort and Reflex, Expert in Will.
Trained in Nature, Religion and 2+int others.
Trained in Perception.
8+con hit points.
Compared to Cloistered Cleric (since they get the same spell proficiency scaling):
Wisdom-based divine spellcaster.
Trained in unarmored (or medium if Warpriest)
Trained in simple weapons + deity's weapon.
Trained in Fort and Reflex, Expert in Will.
Trained in Religion, +1 based on deity, and 2+int others.
Trained in Perception.
8+con hit points.
They both get Fort saves to expert at level 3. Animists get Perception to expert at 9th level, compared to the Cleric's 5th.
9th level, Animists gain either Fort saves to master or medium armor proficiency to expert, compared to the cleric's Will to master.
11th level Animists gain Simple weapon proficiency and reflex saves to expert; Clerics gain Fort saves to expert.
13 Channelers gain medium armor to expert; Clerics gain unarmored defense to expert.
So like, the actual class chassis is not wholly dissimilar from the cleric. Somewhat better armor proficiency, somewhat worse saving throw proficiency (especially Sages).
The Animist gets a few more regular spell slots; the cleric gets a bunch more top level Heal/Harm spells. From 1-11, the Cleric has more total spell slots, they're tied at 12, and the Animist pulls ahead for the rest of the game.
A cleric's deity grants a handful of spells to their spell list. But this is where the Animist really shines, with the huge amount of flexibility granted by the Apparition Spell List and automatically going up to 3 focus points at 4th level. So by 5th level, an Animist has access to 3 cantrips and 9 spells which aren't limited to the Divine spell list.
So given the pretty similar chassis, the biggest points of differentiation that I've noticed are the incredible flexibility of the Animist and the Divine Font of the Cleric.
Which, to me, starts to beggar the question:
What is the Cleric's mechanical niche anymore, unless you explicitly NEED access to a bunch of extra heals or harms?
(You can tell plenty of deity-focuses or related stories without actually playing a Cleric, so I don't find that an especially compelling reason. I'm really looking for mechanics based reasons to play the cleric over the animist)
I think the niche for the animist that is separate from the cleric is specifically thematic. As in "you don't have to follow or care about any gods whatsoever" and unlike a divine sorcerer/witch you do care about "the spirit world. broadly, specifically how it interacts with the material world."
Mechanically the difference between the animist and the cleric is that fully half of the spells the animist gets are spontaneous primal spells.` That and the one action sustained focus spells.
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The Animist seems derived mainly from the PF1 Medium (further derived from the 3.5 Binder) and a bit from the PF1 Shaman. All of these classes shared the mechanical theme of day-to-day flexibility, capable of filling whatever role was needed for the day. Some people would confuse the flexibility of the Medium as an overlap with the Occultist (the PF1 equivalent of the Thaumaturge) but where the Occultist was focused more on build flexibility, the Medium was more actively flexible through play.
Are we talking about theme, or mechanics?
Theme and flavor of the character is pretty obvious.
Mechanics, the comparisons are to Cleric, Oracle, Divine Sorcerer, Divine Witch and maybe Thaumaturge.
Spellcasting aside, the Animist is similar to Thaumaturge in that you can build the character very differently depending on what you pick to go for. The difference is that Thaumaturge does this with their implement choice - which is permanent. Animist does this with their choice of Apparitions and Wandering feats - which is done anew each morning.
For the spellcasting, all of those existing divine tradition spellcasters have ways of getting different spells onto their divine casting. Cleric has Deity spells automatically. Oracle can get those same Deity spells with a feat. Sorcerer has Bloodline spells. Witch has Lessons. So it could be claimed that Animist is just the same as all of those classes rather than being distinct.
But I don't think it is. Cleric only gets one set of Deity spells. Ever. Oracle can get more, but it is still permanently chosen and costs a feat for each set of three spells that they get. Divine Sorcerer bloodline spells are also fixed and unchangeable. Witch Lessons also cost a feat and only give one spell. And again it is permanently fixed for what spell it is.
Animist is getting at least two sets of spells - one of each level. And can switch them up each day as the desire strikes them. You can't quite 'cast anything' since there are plenty of spells that don't show up on any of the Apparition spell sets. And you can't cast ones that you haven't attuned to for the day. But there is still a lot of breadth to the idea of 'We need this spell. I don't have it available today, but don't worry, I can get it tomorrow'.
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Are we talking about theme, or mechanics?
Mechanics, 100%.
You can tell an extremely diverse set of stories with any class, and rarely, if ever, is class's flavor so inseparable from the mechanics that it cannot be approximated with another class with proper story telling.But I don't think it is. Cleric only gets one set of Deity spells. Ever. Oracle can get more, but it is still permanently chosen and costs a feat for each set of three spells that they get. Divine Sorcerer bloodline spells are also fixed and unchangeable. Witch Lessons also cost a feat and only give one spell. And again it is permanently fixed for what spell it is.
This, I think, kind of my problem. The animist, compared to the other divine spell casters, gets a lot of daily flexibility without sacrificing much in other areas.
So when the animist is quite flexible, it almost feels like it's stepping on particularly the Cloistered Cleric's toes as the premier wisdom-based divine spell caster.Heal is a good spell and all, but I don't think Divine Font makes up for the versatility presented to the Animist in a lot of games.
So when the animist is quite flexible, it almost feels like it's stepping on particularly the Cloistered Cleric's toes as the premier wisdom-based divine spell caster.
Heal is a good spell and all, but I don't think Divine Font makes up for the versatility presented to the Animist in a lot of games.
Flexibility is useful, but it is not the same as power.
Animist is gaining a lot of flexibility. But their Divine spellcasting is more in line with that of a Psychic - 2 slots per level.
I have always felt that Cleric is a bit of a weak class mechanically. The other options, Oracle and Divine Sorcerer/Witch would be better to compare the spellcasting to.
Sorcerer gets 4 slots per level. Witch has their familiar and the new familiar abilities that come with it. Oracle has their curse and their focus spells.
And for all of those - other than Cleric - comparing just the spellcasting is insufficient. The spellcasting isn't the niche of Sorcerer, Oracle, or Witch. That isn't what needs the niche protection.
And if Cleric needs Divine tradition Wisdom based spellcasting as their niche, then Cleric is the one that needs a better niche - not Animist.
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it's stepping on particularly the Cloistered Cleric's toes as the premier wisdom-based divine spell caster.
Flip this around, why should the cleric be the "premier" caster? As you pointed out, both classes have similar chassis, so why would the cleric deserve to be better?
The thing that the animist makes feel expensive for cloistered clerics is focus spells. 1but not in too bad a fashion because it is hard for animists to get additional new ones and not just be switching out which ones they have.
For me, apparitions are just so much cooler narratively than the gods.
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it's stepping on particularly the Cloistered Cleric's toes as the premier wisdom-based divine spell caster.Flip this around, why should the cleric be the "premier" caster? As you pointed out, both classes have similar chassis, so why would the cleric deserve to be better?
It shouldn't, but it also shouldn't be worse. And when two classes are so similar in chassis, it seems likely that one will eventually be deemed mechanically superior by a certain portion of the community.
And, well, one of those classes is still being play tested, so there's more room to change it.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
And, well, one of those classes is still being play tested, so there's more room to change it.
I can't stomach the idea of preventing any new cool and interesting well-balanced classes from being created for the sole reason that an existing class has too broad of a niche. 'Broad Niche' sounds like an oxymoron to me.
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This seems more like a problem with the Cleric than the Animist
To me this is endemic of most of the OG primary casting classes.
The difference between the Wizard, Druid, and Cleric, largely, is just spell list and focus spell options. Don't get me wrong, those are definitely big enough reasons to solidly prefer one class over the others.
But if you make another prepared class with the same (generally) spell list and the same key ability score, there's naturally going to be a lot of mechanical overlap.
If they made another int-based prepared arcane spell caster, they'd have to really do something to differentiate it, mechanically, from the wizard.
And to me, it doesn't feel like the Animist is mechanically distinct enough from the Cleric right now.
If they made another int-based prepared arcane spell caster, they'd have to really do something to differentiate it, mechanically, from the wizard.
Like Rune Witch and Magus?
People do complain that Rune Witch is just Familiar Wizard.
Pre-Remaster Rune Witch, yes. I'm talking about the post-Remaster Witch. I guess I should have looked up what the new Patron name for that is.
As for Magus... The spell casting of that class was taken out back and massacred for the sake of letting people get 4 big attacks in.
And the point I am making is that no one is going to say that the class isn't distinct enough.
If Rune Witch wasn't distinct enough from Wizard because it was just another Prepared Arcane Int-based caster, then Witch needs work. Which it is getting.
If the new Remastered Arcane tradition Witch is stepping on the toes of Wizard because it is a Prepared Arcane Int-based caster and also has other special niche things that it does that are cool and make the Wizard not feel special, then it is Wizard that needs work.
Because 'being the Prepared Arcane Int-based spellcaster' isn't a niche that is valid for protection. Neither is 'being the Prepared Divine Wis-based spellcaster'.
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As others have said, the spirits make it unique. The whole spirit package: rotating feats, focus spells, sets of spontaneous spells, and other abilities. The Divine list is the last thing I'd focus on here, it just sorta fills in around all the other stuff.
That said, I do think its core proficiency progression should be the same regardless of Animistic Practice, and the practices should just be nice-to-haves that let a particular Animist focus a bit more on one aspect of their class. Ideally for me these would be more like a Druid Order rather than a Barbarian Instinct, but as is following the Cleric Doctrine route they're sort of the worst of both worlds.
I'd also like to see them get another set of higher level focus spells for each apparition (unlocked with a feat would be fine) and for there to be some way to have a character that gets rewarded for really focusing on one spirit for the day. Even though versaility is the baseline hook for the class, I'd like to be able to see a real payoff from specialization that differentiates one Animist from another--still emphasizing versatility, but focusing a little more on one aspect of that versatility.
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People do complain that Rune Witch is just Familiar Wizard.Pre-Remaster Rune Witch, yes. I'm talking about the post-Remaster Witch. I guess I should have looked up what the new Patron name for that is.
As for Magus... The spell casting of that class was taken out back and massacred for the sake of letting people get 4 big attacks in.And the point I am making is that no one is going to say that the class isn't distinct enough.
If Rune Witch wasn't distinct enough from Wizard because it was just another Prepared Arcane Int-based caster, then Witch needs work. Which it is getting.
If the new Remastered Arcane tradition Witch is stepping on the toes of Wizard because it is a Prepared Arcane Int-based caster and also has other special niche things that it does that are cool and make the Wizard not feel special, then it is Wizard that needs work.
Because 'being the Prepared Arcane Int-based spellcaster' isn't a niche that is valid for protection. Neither is 'being the Prepared Divine Wis-based spellcaster'.
If that's not the Wizard's mechanical niche, I sorta fail to see what it is.
There's really not much more to the class than "prepared arcane spell caster who gets a couple of bonus spells and a focus spell from [source]"
At least Cleric Doctrines provide another significant point of differentiation.
Because 'being the Prepared Arcane Int-based spellcaster' isn't a niche that is valid for protection. Neither is 'being the Prepared Divine Wis-based spellcaster'.If that's not the Wizard's mechanical niche, I sorta fail to see what it is.
There's really not much more to the class than "prepared arcane spell caster who gets a couple of bonus spells and a focus spell from [source]"
I mean, the lack of identity has been a recurring criticism of the Wizard class. It was (barely) fine when we only had the CRB, but by know there's plenty of alternatives. The only thing keeping the Wizard floating so far was the fact that the most direct alternative, the Rune Witch, was somehow even worse. With the witch being buffed, wizard will be in a tough spot - even though it looks like arcane will still be one of the weakest witch traditions.
The animist does come dangerously close to being a cloistered cleric with warpriest proficiencies and better focus spells. But then again, so does the druid in some ways.
The new Divine Font makes the Cleric attractive enough to be a mainstay, I think. The Animist is good alternative with most spell flexibility and (at least for pure caster builds) more interesting feats.
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Just remembering that post-remaster with the change of alignment damage to spirit damage the divine tradition receive a revolutionary boost.
Pre-remaster divine tradition is strongly based into healing spells (including those who remove conditions) with some debuff spells and some interesting summon options (celestial are probable the best summonable creatures available due their abilities) but its damage support is pretty restricted to fiends and undeads or it was unreliable because depending from what is your target alignments it could be weaken or simply just don't work.
Now seeing what we get from previews and remaster leaks this thing completely change. Spirit damage is now better than negative void damage because its only restriction is vs objects and constructs. Divine spell list have some interesting offensive blast spells that with this change will now affect almost everyone like Divine Decree, Divine Wrath, Radiant Beam, Flame Strike and many others will be way more versatile.
In general the divine tradition will improve a lot to a place where it will be competitive with other 3 traditions and if we sum this with the fact that you can easilly take some cantrips like EA from other traditions via ancestries or items like spellhearts you can basically compensate almost all the lacks of the tradition.
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Another thing to point out with the buffed Divine spell list, is that the cleric will be better at making full use of its particular benefits. Clerics have more prepared slots, and thanks to divine font and channel succor can largely use those slots to take advantage of the divine spell.
Animist om the other hand only has two slots they can use from the divine. They have to be way more particular with those divine slots. They also do have the spontaneous slots which open up a ton of options but only in the form of pre defined packages of spells. They are constrained by the very same thing that gives them their versatility. Which i think is good balance.
It seems like the big mechanical niche that is brand new to the animist is that it is first and only class to play with “preparing focus spells.” In that regard, it kinda blows all the other prepared casters out of the water because no one else is eventually getting 4 different focus spells that they can rotate through in encounter mode, but that they can then completely switch out the next day. In that regard, I think it is pushing up a little bit against both the wizard and the cleric because neither of them can just switch out their domains, gods or schools every day.
The limiting factor on the animist is definitely the lack of high level spell slots. Even with the excellent feat support for blasting, it is a class that lacks the top level spell slots to really blast all day. Will spells cast from items that are on the apparition list count as apparition spells?
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People do complain that Rune Witch is just Familiar Wizard.Pre-Remaster Rune Witch, yes. I'm talking about the post-Remaster Witch. I guess I should have looked up what the new Patron name for that is.
As for Magus... The spell casting of that class was taken out back and massacred for the sake of letting people get 4 big attacks in.And the point I am making is that no one is going to say that the class isn't distinct enough.
If Rune Witch wasn't distinct enough from Wizard because it was just another Prepared Arcane Int-based caster, then Witch needs work. Which it is getting.
If the new Remastered Arcane tradition Witch is stepping on the toes of Wizard because it is a Prepared Arcane Int-based caster and also has other special niche things that it does that are cool and make the Wizard not feel special, then it is Wizard that needs work.
Because 'being the Prepared Arcane Int-based spellcaster' isn't a niche that is valid for protection. Neither is 'being the Prepared Divine Wis-based spellcaster'.
If that's not the Wizard's mechanical niche, I sorta fail to see what it is.
There's really not much more to the class than "prepared arcane spell caster who gets a couple of bonus spells and a focus spell from [source]"
At least Cleric Doctrines provide another significant point of differentiation.
Well, then I don't know what to tell you.
Broad Niche is still feeling like an oxymoron to me.
If Cleric and Wizard don't have a niche, then that is a problem that needs to be fixed with Cleric and Wizard.
Preventing the existence of Animist because Cleric is lacking as a class, or nerfing Animist into unplayable blandness so that it doesn't outshine Cleric isn't good for the game as a whole.
You asked "What is the Animist's niche?" That's an easy question to answer. Animist is a Wisdom based prepared spellcaster with fewer spell slots than normal that has a ton of daily configurable options including a secondary method of casting more spell slot spells.
The question you seem to be wanting to ask is "What is the Cleric's niche?" And that, I can't tell you. But I don't think we should push to hobble Animist because of Cleric's problems.
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Well, then I don't know what to tell you.
Broad Niche is still feeling like an oxymoron to me.
If Cleric and Wizard don't have a niche, then that is a problem that needs to be fixed with Cleric and Wizard.
Preventing the existence of Animist because Cleric is lacking as a class, or nerfing Animist into unplayable blandness so that it doesn't outshine Cleric isn't good for the game as a whole.
You asked "What is the Animist's niche?" That's an easy question to answer. Animist is a Wisdom based prepared spellcaster with fewer spell slots than normal that has a ton of daily configurable options including a secondary method of casting more spell slot spells.
The question you seem to be wanting to ask is "What is the Cleric's niche?" And that, I can't tell you. But I don't think we should push to hobble Animist because of Cleric's problems.
I agree. In asking the question about the Animist, I found moreso that I am dissatisfied with the Cleric and Wizard than I am with the new class.
I think the Animist is fine, and mechanically pretty interesting. Well, the channeler is interesting. The sage feels like it needs more, but that's not the point of this thread.
As it is, I DO think the Animist will end up as a more enticing Cleric alternative unless the cleric is also improved upon.
Divine Font is nice, but the Animist's flexibility will probably make it the better divine spell casting class overall.
(Yes, flexibility doesn't 1:1 equate to power, but as long as you don't have mechanically correct options and the flexibility of the options is real, it does largely equate to power)
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The newer classes are better becaude they offer more ways to build with more flavourful feats. They feel less one dimensional, this is a good thing. Niche-ism is ultimately bad, particularly when it leads to bland feat design (wizard and cleric especially). The 4 traditional classes in the crb are are bland and other than the wizard probably the best at what they do power wise.
The newer classes feel fresher because their feats are more interesting. Despite the extra versatility I don't think animist will be a better support than cleric or even more powerful but they will likely be a lot more interesting to build and feel more fun/less stagnant to play (mechanically).
I would love is Paizo went back and made cleric and wizard feats feel as interesting as the animist ones do.
That does actually make me think a bit.
Having these more general themed classes in the Core books is somewhat good also. It means that themes that aren't covered by a specific class can be built using the more general purpose and plain themed classes. The player isn't having to fight against the theme that the class is already trying to put onto the character.
So if you are wanting to build a 'one who speaks to the dead' type of character, an Animist or Summoner with a Phantom Eidolon or Undead Eidolon would be top picks.
But what if you aren't. What if the specifics of your character aren't suited to Animist or Oracle or Witch or Magus. Maybe an Archeologist ley-line investigator out searching through historical records, remote locations, and ancient ruins looking for mysteries and nodes of magical power. Maybe Wizard would be the best choice to build that character on top of. Add Archeologist or Rogue or perhaps Investigator archetype to round things out.
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In theory, the Animist uses the model of the Thaumaturge or Kineticist adapted to a prepared divine caster: they can fill out a role, such as that of a healer, a gish, an AoE blaster, and so on, but on top of that, they can alter which role they fill out from day to day. Thus, they are the game’s first class with a mutable, adaptable niche.
In current practice, though, my feeling is that the Animist can fill out too many niches at once, and fill those niches out too well. Such exceptional versatility must come at a cost in raw effectiveness to make sure true specialists remain current competitive, and right now I don’t think that cost is being paid. Time will tell how Paizo addresses this, if they will, but ideally there’s a happy medium to be had where the Animist can feel good at their chosen role, without invalidating other classes.
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The animist won't be better at casting heal/ harm than the cleric. It will have other spells to cast which are probably better instead but I think it's the cleric that needs to be changed in this case. At the moment it's really the heal and harm specialist as opposed to the divine list specialist and that's too inflexible. They have a good selection of feats but many of their feats deal only with these spells. Playing a domain that doesn't relate to heal / harm feels weird for clerics because so much of the class is tied to them.
I'm hoping they expand it and lean into spirit/vitality/void damage and the sanctified feature in the remaster. I'd want things like changing the damage of divine spells to the damage type that matches your deity like the exemplar does, having damage spells ignore allies you bless when those spells are sanctified like selective energy and converting domain spells into divine spells by making some of their damage spirit damage so they can be effected by the clerics feats. I think the point of heal and harm was to get the idea of holy and unholy but the new sanctified system seems allot better to achieve that.
On that last point, Heal / Harm might have had the notion of Good vs Evil (ie Holy vs Unholy in Remaster) as a conceptual ancestor a long long time ago.
But, for some time now, it has actually been Positive energy vs Negative energy. With Good Clerics (Good because PCs) being the bane of undead.
And Positive and Negative energies (Vitality and Void in the new parlance) are not aligned to the Holy/Unholy (Good-Evil axis of alignment) struggle.
Because Positive is centered on creation while Negative is centered on destruction. And those are neither Good nor Evil. They just are.