| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And don't forget, the ability to flank in a bad spot for an ally to stand can often be an extra +2 to hit for the summon as well as the ally.
There are also a lot of summons who do unusual damage types with basic saves that do damage on a success, which lets a caster have a pretty decent shot of doing some damage to a potential weakness.
Personally, I find summons most useful in fights against several enemies as they can usually do a decent job of stealing a couple of actions from at least one of them if not a couple, and potentially have resistances to the enemies primary damage type. I rarely see people regret summoning dragons even when they are in the 13 to 15 level range. That could be because level 9 dragons really gives you some flexibility and because dragons tend to have pretty good stats and bonuses to save vs magic.
Higher level animals can be fun and take up a lot of space with a lot of HP, but will usually just be like moving walls you have to sustain which can be an action sink before you have effortless concentration.
Overall though, summons mostly become a question of how GMs run them. If a GM only lets the caster make one general command for what to do and not really control them, or completely ignores them as targets, they get very, very bad. At least that has been my experience with my PFS Conjurer wizard. Sometimes I can cast the summon, boost them, and then scout into the next room in 3 or 4 rounds and then have a boosted summon for a couple of rounds at the start of a combat. Sometimes GMs take control of the summon and they are pretty much useless. low level eagles told to scream for every creature they see has been incredibly useful though, even when the GM doesn't let me completely control their movement. I think that the missing lower level slots would hurt a summoner built to summon that wasn't going to use scrolls.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes. Summons are a bad long-term investment for everyone as they scale badly as you level. As the level spread becomes wider between the summon and what they fight, they lose their value.The level difference stays at 4 levels, from character level 7 and up, rank 4 spells. But as hit points scale up faster than damage, summons actually become tougher.
Still 4 levels means a difference of about 6 on to hit and AC. Which is why people maintain that summons are poor. But given that you get to pick your summoned creature you can normally bring a couple of those points back.
I would say they start at 4 levels behind, end up 5 levels behind before the next rank topping out at 5 levels behind, and scale badly against equal level to level +3 enemies you end up fighting. They require a top rank spell to use to maintain 4 to 5 levels behind, which is often better spent on other things.
Given the low number of spells including top rank spells a summoner gets, it makes it a bad scaling option.
Even an AoE spell will outperform a summon the majority of the time in a mook fight for damage dealing. A utility spell at that level is usually much, much more effective than a summon.
An Elder Elemental Tsunami as an example will be +32 to hit if cast with a level 10 spell slot if your DM allows an elite template. It will do 3d12+16 damage on a hit for an average.
Desert Howl Monster CR 19: AC 43 Fort +38, Ref +32, Will +29
Balor Monster: CR 20 AC: 45 Fort +39, Ref +35, Will +34; +1 status to all saves vs. magic
So hit roll +32 with a sustain spell for free. Hit on a 11 or better against a CR 19 creature and a 13 or better on a CR 20 creature
Spell DC of level 19 caster: 44 DC
Level 20 Caster: DC 45
Creatures fails saves on following: CR 19: Fort 5 or less Ref: 11 or less Will: 14 or less
CR 20 Creature: Fort: 3 or less Ref: 7 or less Will: 8 or less
On a miss you do no damage, on a save you may still do something on a success with a save using something like a slow spell.
So it's not a good use of high level spell slots to use summons or actions for that matter. Even a level 3 slow has a much more dramatic effect than a level 10 summon due to the success effect of the slow spell.
For summons to justify the action and resource cost, they would have to do something more substantial than damage as their save effects are often negligible.
That's why a focus point driven summon on the summoner would be the only thing to make them effective because at the very least it would be a nearly free resource boosted by the quality summon feats so that by sheer volume of use they would start to prove useful compared to a highly limited resource like a top level slot which should be reserved for high value spellcasting.
And don't forget, the ability to flank in a bad spot for an ally to stand can often be an extra +2 to hit for the summon as well as the ally.
There are also a lot of summons who do unusual damage types with basic saves that do damage on a success, which lets a caster have a pretty decent shot of doing some damage to a potential weakness.
Personally, I find summons most useful in fights against several enemies as they can usually do a decent job of stealing a couple of actions from at least one of them if not a couple, and potentially have resistances to the enemies primary damage type. I rarely see people regret summoning dragons even when they are in the 13 to 15 level range. That could be because level 9 dragons really gives you some flexibility and because dragons tend to have pretty good stats and bonuses to save vs magic.
Higher level animals can be fun and take up a lot of space with a lot of HP, but will usually just be like moving walls you have to sustain which can be an action sink before you have effortless concentration.
Overall though, summons mostly become a question of how GMs run them. If a GM only lets the caster make one general command for what to do and not really control them, or completely ignores them as targets, they get very, very bad. At least that has been my experience with my PFS Conjurer wizard. Sometimes I can cast the summon, boost them, and then scout into the next room in 3 or 4 rounds and then have a boosted summon for a couple of rounds at the start of a combat. Sometimes GMs take control of the summon and they are pretty much useless. low level eagles told to scream for every creature they see has been incredibly useful though, even when the GM doesn't let me completely control their movement. I think that the missing lower level slots would hurt a summoner built to summon that wasn't going to use scrolls.
I found summmons useful in the lower level range, somewhere up to where I can cast slow or synesthesia all day.
I did find it useful in some unusual circumstances. One time we had a player move into a room and get cut off from the rest of the party. So my primal sorc summoned an earth elemental to earth glide through the stone wall to flank and provide an additional target for attacks until the party could force their way into the room.
I also had a mud wretch flat-foot an enemy by hitting them and grabbing them. That was pretty effective for a low creature. If you can hit and grab or trip, that can be nice.
It gets much harder to do as the creatures get crazier and crazier abilities at higher level. I don't hear people talk much in these discussion about some of the auras, special attacks, gazes, and effects of high level monsters, but it gets super nasty. You can sometimes summon something in and its dead or effectively useless as soon as it critically fails its save against some nasty aura or gaze or similar effect.
I've felt the pain of casting a summon in a max level slot only to have it rendered useless before it even acted to some crazy ability of a brutal high level monster. I hate risking that with a severely limited resource like a max level spell slot.
Summoning spells are inherently better for prepared casters than spontaneous casters. For wizards, you just have to learn the spell once and you can have it in any slot. Putting a summoning spell in a signature slot is hard to justify, as is keeping lower level summoning spells around in your rep as a wave casting spontaneous caster. At least summoners get some feat support to overcome those set backs but I can see how difficult it would be to feel like putting basically all your spell slots to it every day.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Summoning spells are inherently better for prepared casters than spontaneous casters. For wizards, you just have to learn the spell once and you can have it in any slot. Putting a summoning spell in a signature slot is hard to justify, as is keeping lower level summoning spells around in your rep as a wave casting spontaneous caster. At least summoners get some feat support to overcome those set backs but I can see how difficult it would be to feel like putting basically all your spell slots to it every day.
Arcane Sorcerers can do it as a one off. A primal sorcerer gets a free summon spell in the highest level slot. Even with these, I still don't use them too often because they aren't good.
Sorcs are not as limited as you think, especially arcane sorcs.
I've felt the pain of casting a summon in a max level slot only to have it rendered useless before it even acted to some crazy ability of a brutal high level monster.
Meaning immediately as soon as it is summoned? Because they get to take their two actions for the round as part of their summoning.
Maybe list an example of one of these insta-kill/insta-disable abilities you are mentioning.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've felt the pain of casting a summon in a max level slot only to have it rendered useless before it even acted to some crazy ability of a brutal high level monster.Meaning immediately as soon as it is summoned? Because they get to take their two actions for the round as part of their summoning.
Maybe list an example of one of these insta-kill/insta-disable abilities you are mentioning.
I said rendered useless. Not necessarily killed.
Off the top of my head:
The most notable is a mummy. Summoned in and immediately paralyzed. That is not fun.
Fear auras are not fun. Almost immediately made even weaker attacking with an already low hit roll against a higher AC monster.
Highly mobile flying creatures are not fun as your summon has to spend one action to fly, so only gets one attack and can't use reactions to stop the enemy from moving. Then often has to take an AoO crit attack flying in.
Turn to stone gazes are not fun either. Immediately slowed so the 2 actions becomes one very quickly or worse on a crit fail.
AoE grab effects like you see on a Frogehometh.
Glimpse of Stolen Flesh and AoO entering range not the most fun against an Interlocuter.
Then there are poisons if they get hit and have to immediately save, often crit failing because of low saves.
Aura of Misfortunate makes already weak creature have less chance to hit against Lesser Death.
Gibbering mouther confusion aura not fun either at lower level for a summon. Had one of our players cast a summon against one and it was immediately confused and he had to let it drop.
It can be very, very brutal for a lower level creature to even enter battle against a high level enemy with lots of weird abilities.
So you cast this summon thinking it will do at least something and it ends up wasting your sustain action and a max level slot, misses a bunch of attacks, and does nothing. Feels useless from the moment it was cast.
Seen it a bunch of a time. Did it a few times. That's why my group mostly gave up on summon spells as the levels rise. It's not fun to cast a max level slot that turns out to be useless from the moment it was cast.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I said rendered useless. Not necessarily killed.Off the top of my head:
The most notable is a mummy. Summoned in and immediately paralyzed. That is not fun.
Fear auras are not fun. Almost immediately made even weaker attacking with an already low hit roll against a higher AC monster.
This is just outright poor play on your part.
A major advantage of using the summoned creature is getting the right creature for the job.
Your enemy has a fear aura - then summon something mindless like a contruct - easy enough for arcane, but even primal have options eg certain plants like an Assassin Vine
Your enemy uses a lot of poison then get something with poison immunity. Try a Wood Scamp or anything elemental.
There are heaps of options for almost every type of immunity required.
Players can't easily get much in the way of immunites but monsters can.
This can make a combat much easier.
I don't think summons are as bad as often claimed, but I do think a class built around them should summon stuff 1 to 2 levels higher than the current maximum at certain levels. I don't know at what point getting that +1 or +2 is should kick in, but obviously that is far too good early on. For most casters I think the usefulness is correct. I don't believe as a matter of principle that a summon should ever be a damage dealing spell, or even a tank in the typical sense. I think primarily they are a way to eat enemy actions and damage while providing forms of utility and a boost to action economy. The unicorn casting heal is a fantastic example where you can soak hits at minimum but also provide emergency healing all with a single spell slot. A summon focused class should get to do this better. Perhaps being explicit that "summon dragon" lets you grab the spellcasting variant would be a good step here
I also will say that I don't think the summoner feats for summon spells are particularly impressive and certainly not enough for a class who wants to do this as their schtick and they still certainly don't actually put them above a conjuration wizard or a witch in any meaningful way. I would say for most of their careers it is probably even or worse than full spellcasters. At minimum because your spell resource is more precious, more limited and so even when you have a similar number of spell slots you really are still quite far behind as it eats into your ability to cast other spells more pound for pound
I said rendered useless. Not necessarily killed.Off the top of my head:
The most notable is a mummy. Summoned in and immediately paralyzed. That is not fun.
Fear auras are not fun. Almost immediately made even weaker attacking with an already low hit roll against a higher AC monster.
This is just outright poor play on your part.
A major advantage of using the summoned creature is getting the right creature for the job.
Your enemy has a fear aura - then summon something mindless like a contruct - easy enough for arcane, but even primal have options eg certain plants like an Assassin Vine
Your enemy uses a lot of poison then get something with poison immunity. Try a Wood Scamp or anything elemental.
There are heaps of options for almost every type of immunity required.
Players can't easily get much in the way of immunites but monsters can.This can make a combat much easier.
If you want to try to use summons in battles against CR equal or plus 2 or 3 levels or higher creatures slowing the game down as you make Recall Knowledge checks to figure out the perfect creature immune to the enemy's aura or special ability, only to have them at full strength miss more often than hit using a high value max level slot, have at it.
My group and I have already tested this multiple times. A few times, mostly at lower levels, it has been effective. At higher levels it's just been a waste of a high level spell slot.
When I'm listing the above, I'm doing so to show all the things that can trouble your summons. You could just as easily find an immune creature only to have it be useless in some other way like a construct that can't fly fighting a flying and highly mobile dragon with an extremely high speed and AC.
There are a lot of different abilities to deal with at higher level and it's often not worth the trouble to spend time sifting monsters to find the perfect creature when you have a ton of other uses for your spells and actions to help defeat the tough monster that is ripping your martials apart.
I didn't even mention if the enemy is some mixed group with some of them casting AoE destroyer spells like when we got hit by three shining children that chain cast Sunburst on us while squaring off against a Demilich. That was fun.
I don't think summons are as bad as often claimed, but I do think a class built around them should summon stuff 1 to 2 levels higher than the current maximum at certain levels. I don't know at what point getting that +1 or +2 is should kick in, but obviously that is far too good early on. For most casters I think the usefulness is correct. I don't believe as a matter of principle that a summon should ever be a damage dealing spell, or even a tank in the typical sense. I think primarily they are a way to eat enemy actions and damage while providing forms of utility and a boost to action economy. The unicorn casting heal is a fantastic example where you can soak hits at minimum but also provide emergency healing all with a single spell slot. A summon focused class should get to do this better. Perhaps being explicit that "summon dragon" lets you grab the spellcasting variant would be a good step here
I also will say that I don't think the summoner feats for summon spells are particularly impressive and certainly not enough for a class who wants to do this as their schtick and they still certainly don't actually put them above a conjuration wizard or a witch in any meaningful way. I would say for most of their careers it is probably even or worse than full spellcasters. At minimum because your spell resource is more precious, more limited and so even when you have a similar number of spell slots you really are still quite far behind as it eats into your ability to cast other spells more pound for pound
Summons are why the divine list is not as bad as some think it is. They have excellent support summons that can supplement a support character like a healer with additional casting, defensive abilities, and the like.
There is a bard azata on the celestial summoning list with additional support abilities.
You can also summoner a satyr with support abilities with summon fey.
Some of the support functions of summons are much better than the combat capabilities of summons.
That is why I think the best summon lists are primal and divine. I find support summons done by support characters to be far more useful than combat summons that have to engage a creature in battle.
I imagine I could divide this up:
Combat Summons as a useful spell: Not so great. Combat casters have better things to do with their max level slots.
Support Casters: Divine and primal have some very good support summons that can supplement their group support without using a max level slot that can operate at range and stay alive.
So summons are not completely useless. But just not great for someone looking to use them for combat where they have to get close to an enemy unless they just want a somewhat mobile wall that will take a round to rip through.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
slowing the game down as you make Recall Knowledge checks to figure out the perfect creature immune to the enemy's aura or special ability
It doesn't slow the game down. Recall Knowledge checks are fast assuming the GM has at least read the monster stat block.
If you are playing with summons spells it is up to you to be prepared.You should know this is my best grappler, this is the choice if I need a flyer, a swimmer , a climber, this creatre is mindless, immune to poison, immune to fire, etc....
Dungeons and campaigns tend to have themes. Once you have experienced a few monsters the rest are easier to judge. You don't have to use recall knowledge at all, just common sense.
slowing the game down as you make Recall Knowledge checks to figure out the perfect creature immune to the enemy's aura or special abilityIt doesn't slow the game down. Recall Knowledge checks are fast assuming the GM has at least read the monster stat block.
If you are playing with summons spells it is up to you to be prepared.
You should know this is my best grappler, this is the choice if I need a flyer, a swimmer , a climber, this creatre is mindless, immune to poison, immune to fire, etc....Dungeons and campaigns tend to have themes. Once you have experienced a few monsters the rest are easier to judge. You don't have to use recall knowledge at all, just common sense.
Why should summon spells require even more preparedness from caster players? Why not have strict statblocks like how form spells do?
Why *only* have summon spells that require such things? Well there is incarnate spell but most of them are too high levels anyways
Why? The reason is so you can use all the monsters in the game as a player.
It is playing the game on hard mode. It is not for new players or players who aren't prepared. This is what PF2 gives us.
Yes I totally want a focus point summon spell with simple stat blocks so it can be a bit more tuned up and simpler for normal combat.
The problem with game balance is that the caster still has 2 actions to do something else, eg cast a spell, so the summon can't be that strong. Perhaps they can increase the sustain cost to make summons stronger.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
slowing the game down as you make Recall Knowledge checks to figure out the perfect creature immune to the enemy's aura or special abilityIt doesn't slow the game down. Recall Knowledge checks are fast assuming the GM has at least read the monster stat block.
If you are playing with summons spells it is up to you to be prepared.
You should know this is my best grappler, this is the choice if I need a flyer, a swimmer , a climber, this creatre is mindless, immune to poison, immune to fire, etc....Dungeons and campaigns tend to have themes. Once you have experienced a few monsters the rest are easier to judge. You don't have to use recall knowledge at all, just common sense.
Summons are a 3 action spell with a 30 foot range. If you have to recall knowledge, then you are spending two rounds bringing a summon online.
Unless of course you do a lot of metagaming and overlook having to use Recall Knowledge as a means to determine what you might summon.
Then even if you summon it, will it have a comparative effect to a higher value spell in that top level slot or a higher value spell in a lower level slot?
My particular group has done this calculating and found summons to be weak and lacking. There are better uses of actions and spell resources.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
slowing the game down as you make Recall Knowledge checks to figure out the perfect creature immune to the enemy's aura or special abilityIt doesn't slow the game down. Recall Knowledge checks are fast assuming the GM has at least read the monster stat block.
If you are playing with summons spells it is up to you to be prepared.
You should know this is my best grappler, this is the choice if I need a flyer, a swimmer , a climber, this creatre is mindless, immune to poison, immune to fire, etc....Dungeons and campaigns tend to have themes. Once you have experienced a few monsters the rest are easier to judge. You don't have to use recall knowledge at all, just common sense.
Why should summon spells require even more preparedness from caster players? Why not have strict statblocks like how form spells do?
Why *only* have summon spells that require such things? Well there is incarnate spell but most of them are too high levels anyways
Incarnate Spells are what I refer to as great visual design, bad power design. Not powerful enough or high value enough to use for the level you obtain them.
Summons are a 3 action spell with a 30 foot range. If you have to recall knowledge, then you are spending two rounds bringing a summon online.
Unless of course you do a lot of metagaming and overlook having to use Recall Knowledge as a means to determine what you might summon.
Stop treating options and tactics as cumpolsory. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Recall Knowledge is a good mechanic and you should use it when it is appropriate. However it is not the only way of getting the job done. It is not metagaming to be able to work something out about the monster. It could be if you are doing it on no basis, but often it is obvious.
Often the visual description of the monster gives you all the information you want. No one is going to look at at Balrog or a Fire Elemental and think throwing fire at them is a good idea.
Often the PCs have seen something similar in the previous room.
Summons are a 3 action spell with a 30 foot range. If you have to recall knowledge, then you are spending two rounds bringing a summon online.
Unless of course you do a lot of metagaming and overlook having to use Recall Knowledge as a means to determine what you might summon.
Stop treating options and tactics as cumpolsory. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Recall Knowledge is a good mechanic and you should use it when it is appropriate. However it is not the only way of getting the job done. It is not metagaming to be able to work something out about the monster. It could be if you are doing it on no basis, but often it is obvious.
Often the visual description of the monster gives you all the information you want. No one is going to look at at Balrog or a Fire Elemental and think throwing fire at them is a good idea.
Often the PCs have seen something similar in the previous room.
Really? A balor has so much more going on than "just don't use fire." If that is how you assess a balor, then summon a fire immune creature and watch all the other problems that summon has against a balor.
A bad option is a provably bad option. Summons are a measurably bad option for combat in higher level slots.
Recall Knowledge mechanic is fine, but it costs actions. You get three a round and summons spells cost 3 of them to cast.
I did not say it was compulsory. If you want to use a bad option, then use a bad option. I really don't care if people use bad options. You can win with bad options because PF2 isn't that hard a game. It isn't that complex.
But unlikely you will win in my games because I make them very, very hard. So you don't have room to use bad options too often. Most of the people using bad options will either feel useless or get wasted. I don't hold back because a player wants to use their spell slots for poor options, especially when we have already play tested those options and know they are bad.
Maybe you like using a lot of summons, I don't know. I think of them as a bad use of a spell slot and actions the higher level my characters get for combat.
Summons are awesome! Don't let the naysayers sway you!
I've seen it with my own eyes how awesome they can be.
I for one have seen summons used quite effectively as high as 15th-level. In many scenarios, they can even be the silver bullet. They're not great in every situation, and they're hardly powerful, but I think it disingenuous to say that they are universally, objectively bad.
I've seen them succeed far too many times for that to be even remotely true.
I've summoned dragons to great effect in many a battle!
Dragons are the best summons!
I for one have seen summons used quite effectively as high as 15th-level. In many scenarios, they can even be the silver bullet. They're not great in every situation, and they're hardly powerful, but I think it disingenuous to say that they are universally, objectively bad.
I've seen them succeed far too many times for that to be even remotely true.
What would constitute a silver bullet in your game?
I have never seen a summon outperform another character in my games at levels as high as level 15. My entire group is comprised of cooperative optimizers.
We love to hear a strategy that would be superior to our normal strategies. Then we can add it. So far no luck with the high level summons as we would normally use the actions for something high value.
What high value actions and abilities have you seen a high level summon carry out? What's the scenario?
That's what I like to hear. How something plays out using an example in actions and activities within a group paradigm. Because that's how we operate.
Our normal strategy consists of the following when dealing with some tough boss:
1. Trip martial heads in.
2. AoO martials close.
3. Apply debuffs to increase hit chances.
4. Destroy target through a combination of action removal, debuffing, and heavy martial damage.
5. If dealing with large groups, employ control spells to divide battlefield and force enemies into the kill zone.
So far we have not found summons useful in this strategy. Or rather we have not found them to be optimal.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Really? A balor has so much more going on than "just don't use fire." If that is how you assess a balor, then summon a fire immune creature and watch all the other problems that summon has against a balor.
....I did not say it was compulsory. If you want to use a bad option, then use a bad option. I really don't care if people use bad options. You can win with bad options because PF2 isn't that hard a game. It isn't that complex.
But unlikely you will win in my games because I make them very, very hard. So you don't have room to use bad options
Good tactics do not require perfect knowledge.
Most combats the players don't know the full details of their opponents and that is OK.Summons are not bad options, if you think about it.
If you want to play hard games, then go ahead. Just don't expect everyone else to want the same. Not everyone wants to "win" the game in the same way. Most of us just want to have fun.
There is no one solution to a game as complex as PF2. Every class and every tactic has its place. For sure some of them are much better on average. But they all can be made to work.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I for one have seen summons used quite effectively as high as 15th-level. In many scenarios, they can even be the silver bullet. They're not great in every situation, and they're hardly powerful, but I think it disingenuous to say that they are universally, objectively bad.
I've seen them succeed far too many times for that to be even remotely true.
What would constitute a silver bullet in your game?
I have never seen a summon outperform another character in my games at levels as high as level 15. My entire group is comprised of cooperative optimizers.
We love to hear a strategy that would be superior to our normal strategies. Then we can add it. So far no luck with the high level summons as we would normally use the actions for something high value.
What high value actions and abilities have you seen a high level summon carry out? What's the scenario?
That's what I like to hear. How something plays out using an example in actions and activities within a group paradigm. Because that's how we operate.
Our normal strategy consists of the following when dealing with some tough boss:
1. Trip martial heads in.
2. AoO martials close.
3. Apply debuffs to increase hit chances.
4. Destroy target through a combination of action removal, debuffing, and heavy martial damage.
5. If dealing with large groups, employ control spells to divide battlefield and force enemies into the kill zone.
So far we have not found summons useful in this strategy. Or rather we have not found them to be optimal.
I have a silver bullet example from actual play. Champion and his horse were shoved off a bridge into a lava pit. Cleric summoned a devil with flight, fire immunity, and enough strength to fish both characters out. We would have had a character death without the spell, or at least a mount death.
They can also be used to bait constructs and other mindless enemies (golems keep showing up at high levels), target weaknesses (often with effects which don't require attack rolls), act as psuedo walls in tight hallways to separate enemies from the lack (while also dealing damage), provide buffs and flanking, be used as a cheap source of flight or mobility, and other miscellaneous things.
RD is right to call them a silver bullet. They aren't the thing to use in an encounter when your standard optimized tactics can be used to great effect. They are the thing to use when those tactics aren't working or you've encountered something unexpected.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Really? A balor has so much more going on than "just don't use fire." If that is how you assess a balor, then summon a fire immune creature and watch all the other problems that summon has against a balor.
....I did not say it was compulsory. If you want to use a bad option, then use a bad option. I really don't care if people use bad options. You can win with bad options because PF2 isn't that hard a game. It isn't that complex.
But unlikely you will win in my games because I make them very, very hard. So you don't have room to use bad options
Good tactics do not require perfect knowledge.
Most combats the players don't know the full details of their opponents and that is OK.
Summons are not bad options, if you think about it.If you want to play hard games, then go ahead. Just don't expect everyone else to want the same. Not everyone wants to "win" the game in the same way. Most of us just want to have fun.
There is no one solution to a game as complex as PF2. Every class and every tactic has its place. For sure some of them are much better on average. But they all can be made to work.
I'm an old jaded gamer that has played this game for 40 years. Easy fights stopped being fun decades ago.
I'd much rather have things fixed than hear people telling me something is fine I know is not performing well against other comparative options.
But every time these discussions come up, there is always the other side proclaiming something is fine and works just fine while never providing any measurable examples of what fine means in terms of comparative damage or effect for an equivalent spell.
I would absolutely love someone to provide the math and examples of a summons outperforming using a max level slot even the chain cast of a 3rd level slow spell in a boss level encounter above 11th level or so.
The round by round examples with competently built martials doing their job supported by casters using their spells in an efficient manner.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Really? A balor has so much more going on than "just don't use fire." If that is how you assess a balor, then summon a fire immune creature and watch all the other problems that summon has against a balor.
....I did not say it was compulsory. If you want to use a bad option, then use a bad option. I really don't care if people use bad options. You can win with bad options because PF2 isn't that hard a game. It isn't that complex.
But unlikely you will win in my games because I make them very, very hard. So you don't have room to use bad options
Good tactics do not require perfect knowledge.
Most combats the players don't know the full details of their opponents and that is OK.
Summons are not bad options, if you think about it.If you want to play hard games, then go ahead. Just don't expect everyone else to want the same. Not everyone wants to "win" the game in the same way. Most of us just want to have fun.
There is no one solution to a game as complex as PF2. Every class and every tactic has its place. For sure some of them are much better on average. But they all can be made to work.
I'm an old jaded gamer that has played this game for 40 years. Easy fights stopped being fun decades ago.
I'd much rather have things fixed than hear people telling me something is fine I know is not performing well against other comparative options.
But every time these discussions come up, there is always the other side proclaiming something is fine and works just fine while never providing any measurable examples of what fine means in terms of comparative damage or effect for an equivalent spell.
I would absolutely love someone to provide the math and examples of a summons outperforming using a max level slot even the chain cast of a 3rd level slow spell in a boss level encounter above 11th level or so.
The round by round examples with competently built martials doing their job supported by casters using their spells in an...
Those demands really demonstrate that you don't actually get summons. It's like demanding that people use math to demonstrate a fly spell does better damage than a lightning bolt.
I'd also like to remind you that you made very similar arguments against the summoner last year as you are making against summon spells now, and you admitted to being wrong there. (Which shows growth, props.) You've had similar changes of heart on the value of the Trip action. It might be worth considering that your 40 years experience doesn't necessarily translate to things you haven't experienced, like classes you haven't played or spells you haven't used.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
To be fair to everyone in this conversation, summoning spells are very GM dependent, as I have seen with my PFS Conjurer. If the GM metagames the summon, it is difficult to use a summons effectively. If every enemy just knows that a creature appearing out of no where is a summoned creature, and that means it is a lesser threat than the one who summoned it, and that it only has 2 actions a turn and that the caster has to spend one action sustaining the spell or lose it...there are a ton of ways that even the best silver bullet summon can get disrupted and made ineffective.
But it is also really easy as a GM not to do those things, especially for non-casting, non-adventuring enemies and getting even 2 or 3 actions spent (especially for a solo creature) engaging with a summons is about as much as any caster can hope for out of a spell. So even if the solo level +2 crocodile attacks the summon, crits it and kills it in one hit, its wasted an action possibly has to move, and minimally has MAP to deal with now. That alone is still worth a spell slot, especially if you have enough spell slots to just spam another one.
What would constitute a silver bullet in your game?
Summoning a flying ranged attacker to combat an enemy or enemies with weak or no ranged combat capabilities.
Summoning a creature that can do appropriate damage to target the foe's weakness or bypass high resistances/immunities when the party members themselves are unable to.
Summoning a creature whose abilities compliment those of one or more members in the party in some way. One potential example could be a caster using repulsion to keep the enemies at bay while summoned creatures and party members with reach or range take them apart.
Summoning a big pile of hit points to block a narrow passage and buy the party time to escape a losing battle.
Summoning a creature that can buff, debuff, or heal in order to enhance of fulfill a lacking role in the party.
I'm sure I could think of many more amazing uses given enough time.
It's not often going to be an "I win" button, but it may very well determine whether or not the party achieves in their immediate objective.
If nothing else, increasing the action economy on your team (while likely causing the enemy to waste theirs) is always going to be beneficial in some way.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
...
Really? A balor has so much more going on than "just don't use fire." If that is how you assess a balor, then summon a fire immune creature and watch all the other problems that summon has against a balor.
....I did not say it was compulsory. If you want to use a bad option, then use a bad option. I really don't care if people use bad options. You can win with bad options because PF2 isn't that hard a game. It isn't that complex.
But unlikely you will win in my games because I make them very, very hard. So you don't have room to use bad options
Good tactics do not require perfect knowledge.
Most combats the players don't know the full details of their opponents and that is OK.
Summons are not bad options, if you think about it.If you want to play hard games, then go ahead. Just don't expect everyone else to want the same. Not everyone wants to "win" the game in the same way. Most of us just want to have fun.
There is no one solution to a game as complex as PF2. Every class and every tactic has its place. For sure some of them are much better on average. But they all can be made to work.
I'm an old jaded gamer that has played this game for 40 years. Easy fights stopped being fun decades ago.
I'd much rather have things fixed than hear people telling me something is fine I know is not performing well against other comparative options.
But every time these discussions come up, there is always the other side proclaiming something is fine and works just fine while never providing any measurable examples of what fine means in terms of comparative damage or effect for an equivalent spell.
I would absolutely love someone to provide the math and examples of a summons outperforming using a max level slot even the chain cast of a 3rd level slow spell in a boss level encounter above 11th level or so.
The round by round examples with competently built martials doing their job supported
A fly spell's utility and situational importance can be shown often in the course of cooperative play. Fly is a high value spell every party should carry for those times when it is needed.
So no, I am not asking that.
I am asking for someone within a group dynamic show me how the summon worked. What do they consider effective? Show me the action breakdown.
When I think about these things we discuss on these forums, I'm thinking about them in terms of how they work. What's going on?
You roll initiative.
You have your party composition.
What happens next? What makes the summon valuable?
Me? I can think of times when a summon was effective and when it was flat out bad.
I know how that worked in the group dynamic. I recall our wizard using summon dragon because he thought it might be a good thing to use in a dragon fight in the dragon's lair against a mobile dragon.
What did it proceed to do after the wizard expended a top level slot?
It moved into combat range. It missed it's attack. It took a big opportunity attack and got smashed real hard. It continued to miss, was ignored by the dragon, and only had one effective action because summons get 2 actions for a 1 actions for a one action sustain and had to spend one action to maintain flight.
Similar thing happened at lower level against a gibbering mouther with animate dead. The creature kept missing its attacks.
I used a giant against other giants with a summon giant spell. It didn't do much, but didn't die quickly either because the giants mostly ignored it to swing at the PCs doing far more damage.
The action cost and resource expenditure rarely felt worth the expenditure. I measured its damage, action cost, whether it absorbed hits that might go against a player, slowed the actions of the enemy, acted as flanker, or some other measure.
It didn't do enough to justify its use. Often you don't need a summon as a flanker because multipole martials are flanking for each other and flanking certainly isn't a good use of a max level slot.
I'm asking for play examples showing a summons worth at the higher levels. Not theoretical, but how did it work in play? What did it do to help your party? What were the others doing around it that made it valuable?
This is a max level slot we're talking about. A very valuable slot. You do not want your max level slots feeling useless and misspent. That is the feeling our group has more often than not with summons.
That's why for a summoner, a focus point summon would likely be the best option as that at least proves useful by sheer volume of use and is a once a battle free resource.
This entire discussion started because we were discussing a summoner using a max level slot, which would max out at 3 up to level 19 or 2 at level 20, would be an intelligent use of a max level slot in combat.
This segued into the summon discussion. My group has had bad experiences with summons for very measurable reasons as the levels rise with some positive experiences at lower level or with support summons.
I know how they worked. I recall the group compositions, what they did, how we used them, how effective they were in a group, and that the slot would have likely been better spent on something else.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What would constitute a silver bullet in your game?Summoning a flying ranged attacker to combat an enemy or enemies with weak or no ranged combat capabilities.
Summoning a creature that can do appropriate damage to target the foe's weakness or bypass high resistances/immunities when the party members themselves are unable to.
Summoning a creature whose abilities compliment those of one or more members in the party in some way. One potential example could be a caster using repulsion to keep the enemies at bay while summoned creatures and party members with reach or range take them apart.
Summoning a big pile of hit points to block a narrow passage and buy the party time to escape a losing battle.
Summoning a creature that can buff, debuff, or heal in order to enhance of fulfill a lacking role in the party.
I'm sure I could think of many more amazing uses given enough time.
It's not often going to be an "I win" button, but it may very well determine whether or not the party achieves in their immediate objective.
If nothing else, increasing the action economy on your team (while likely causing the enemy to waste theirs) is always going to be beneficial in some way.
This is all theoretical. Explain an example in real time measured against alternatives.
I've tested actual use. The difference between theory and use immense.
In the dragon example I posted above, our thinking was a flying mobile dragon would be able to keep up with a flying mobile dragon. What actually happened is the dragon's attack roll was too low to land consistently. It had too few actions to use it's 2 action dragon attack ability which is built off a 3 action paradigm of one action to fly and 2 actions to dragon frenzy. It doesn't have reactions and the dragon does, so it got wrecked by the AoO from the dragon.
It did not provide the help you would expect against a dragon moving at the speed it moved to get around. We ended up buffing a few martials to fly and tripping it to the ground to slow it down.
Rough fight. Dragon summon proved useless. This has been our experience more often than not with summons.
Insufficient damage output.
Weak defenses leading to quick death if attacked.
Mobility advantages often pointless because they can't do much to the target.
Save abilities too weak to affect target or targets.
Theory does not trump real play experience and recorded metrics.
Which is why I'm asking for someone that has an actual play experience of using a spell they took the time to think about measuring against an alternative tactic. Real play experience to show how it worked to the party's advantage.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is all theoretical. Explain an example in real time measured against alternatives.
This is a terrible point. Theory and maths are perfectly good for explaining a game.
But to respond. The 1st use of Summon Animal for a level 1 Witch I GMed was in level 1 Abomination Vault. The party opened the door but then lost initiative. The large solo monster moved first and blocked the door. The players couldnt gain flanking as they were all on one side of it. The Witch summoned an animal on the other side. It hit for almost no damage but what it really did was set up flanking for the rest of the party. The other characters got a whole lot of hits next round and the witch was very happy.
Finally the summons was killed but not before taking 3 attacks from the boss.
Would something else have worked? Probably but this was a player in their first game of PF2.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What would constitute a silver bullet in your game?Summoning a flying ranged attacker to combat an enemy or enemies with weak or no ranged combat capabilities.
Summoning a creature that can do appropriate damage to target the foe's weakness or bypass high resistances/immunities when the party members themselves are unable to.
Summoning a creature whose abilities compliment those of one or more members in the party in some way. One potential example could be a caster using repulsion to keep the enemies at bay while summoned creatures and party members with reach or range take them apart.
Summoning a big pile of hit points to block a narrow passage and buy the party time to escape a losing battle.
Summoning a creature that can buff, debuff, or heal in order to enhance of fulfill a lacking role in the party.
I'm sure I could think of many more amazing uses given enough time.
It's not often going to be an "I win" button, but it may very well determine whether or not the party achieves in their immediate objective.
If nothing else, increasing the action economy on your team (while likely causing the enemy to waste theirs) is always going to be beneficial in some way.
This is all theoretical. Explain an example in real time measured against alternatives.
I've tested actual use. The difference between theory and use immense.
In the dragon example I posted above, our thinking was a flying mobile dragon would be able to keep up with a flying mobile dragon. What actually happened is the dragon's attack roll was too low to land consistently. It had too few actions to use it's 2 action dragon attack ability which is built off a 3 action paradigm of one action to fly and 2 actions to dragon frenzy. It doesn't have reactions and the dragon does, so it got wrecked by the AoO from the dragon.
It did not provide the help you would expect against a dragon moving at the...
You likely do not realize it but you are asking people to demonstrate that Summons are efficient according to the way you personally measure efficiency, in conditions that fit the way you personally play the game. As if it was the only way to enjoy the game and win combats.
It will not work.
People will bring examples that you will consider inadequate in some way because that is not how you play the game.
But every time these discussions come up, there is always the other side proclaiming something is fine and works just fine while never providing any measurable examples of what fine means in terms of comparative damage or effect for an equivalent spell.
I would absolutely love someone to provide the math and examples of a summons outperforming using a max level slot even the chain cast of a 3rd level slow spell in a boss level encounter above 11th level or so.
I am not saying that summons are super strong. They aren't. I still think they need to be improved. But you can use them well and get a reasonably good level of play out of them. It is very much symptomatic of the whole caster problem in PF2. Casters are balanced around you playing them well. Casters suit experienced players.
What I am opposed to, is your opinion that because everything is not perfectly totally balanced then much of the game is useless. That is just not the case. Most of it is balanced near enough.
Slow is one of the strongest spells in the game. Comparing everything to it is not especially fair or reasonable. I've seen a few people callling for it to be nerfed - by adding incapacitation for example. Personally I really think it needs to have a couple of traits added to it so there are some monsters that are immune to it.
There are situations where Slow is a poor choice. Example you are in a dungeon where the enemy does not have to move to hit you, because they have reach or a good range attack, and they won't come out after you. All Slow is stopping then is their last attack at -10. Basically anytime the enemy is just going to stand still and slug it out with you. This is why some new players don't think Slow is that good a spell. But often enough you have to slug it out anyway.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I ran an Extinction Curse game for three years (the first four modules) in which we had a conjurer wizard. He followed a distinctive bird theme, and would often use summoned birds during his circus acts.
At low levels he would summon giant skunks to great effect. They'd use their musk to sicken enemies, making them far easier to handle.
At higher levels, he would frequently summon drakes and dragons, primarily for their area and/or ranged attacks and extreme mobility. They held up in combat surprisingly well (though were rarely what won the day on their own). On one occasion they were instrumental in hunting down and bringing back to us fleeing foes who easily outpaced the rest if the party. As their capture was plot critical, it would have been a terrible outcome for us has they escaped. Their unusual senses helped find a few that had been hiding from us as well.
In another encounter, we used his summons to sneak past a superior force by having them cause a loud distraction, drawing guards and others away from our location. That allowed us to bypass three encounters and go straight to the boss, and then to later flee with our lives on new summons when that encounter went sideways.
He was also quite fond of fog clouds as I recall, and would sometimes summon monsters into the fog to confuse and harass enemies. We even pulled out of the cloud once and (silently) laughed as the enemy wasted several rounds fighting the wrong foe while we healed up. Concealment and miss chances are amazing for extending the lifespan of a summon.
He saved a caravan ambushed by a bulette (land sharks) because he was able to summon an earth elemental to earth glide ahead and harass the sharks long enough to for the rest of us to catch up and join the fight.
And that's just off the top of my head.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
He was also quite fond of fog clouds as I recall, and would sometimes summon monsters into the fog to confuse and harass enemies. We even pulled out of the cloud once and (silently) laughed as the enemy wasted several rounds fighting the wrong foe while we healed up. Concealment and miss chances are amazing for extending the lifespan of a summon.
He saved a caravan ambushed by a bulette (land sharks) because he was able to summon an earth elemental to earth glide ahead and harass the sharks long enough to for the rest of us to catch up and join the fight
But the fog machine in the white room all the maths are in has been broken for years, and burrowing kept causing the calculators to glitch so we banned it!
People will bring examples that you will consider inadequate in some way because that is not how you play the game.
Exactly. We all know that summoned creatures have lower attack bonuses, damage amounts, and HP than PCs do.
So if all you are interested in is a melee brawler that you can summon to do your character's fighting for you, then you are going to be disappointed.
But that doesn't mean that summoning is always ineffective. It means that summoning is not good for creating a melee combat creature.
Be creative with it. Summon them for other purposes. Plenty have been suggested already.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Having a maul fighter in that extinction curse party with a greater fearsome rune helped the summon be part of the dog pile. One crit and an enemies AC was dropped by 4. Suddenly everyone could hit a lot easier and most summons attacking twice are better than a caster attacking once with a weapon once you already have it out any ways.
A fly spell's utility and situational importance can be shown often in the course of cooperative play. Fly is a high value spell every party should carry for those times when it is needed....
In the dragon example I posted above, our thinking was a flying mobile dragon would be able to keep up with a flying mobile dragon. What actually happened is the dragon's attack roll was too low to land consistently. It had too few actions to use it's 2 action dragon attack ability which is built off a 3 action paradigm of one action to fly and 2 actions to dragon frenzy. It doesn't have reactions and the dragon does, so it got wrecked by the AoO from the dragon.
It did not provide the help you would expect against a dragon moving at the speed it moved to get around. We ended up buffing a few martials to fly and tripping it to the ground to slow it down
This example is just... *Chef's kiss.* It is the perfect demonstration of your misunderstanding. You should never have expected a summon to go one on one with a boss monster. What you should have done was have the martial ride the summon. Fly grants a speed equal to the martial's land speed. Dragons usually have an effective speed of at least 100 feet, either inherently or thanks to abilities like speed surge on drakes. Even with Sudden Charge, there are few martials who can keep up with that. And if an enemy starts above you then gaining altitude is difficult terrain, so there's a good chance that extra speed will matter.
Had your martial rode the dragon, they probably could have tripped the enemy sooner and then gotten back into the fray sooner with an additional body which had a (low) chance to contribute damage and could provide flanking for more people to boot.
Edit: I'll note that depending on turn order and the exact distance you need to cover, a fly spell might have been more efficient than a summon. It certainly uses a lower level slot. But the nice thing about summons is that while they aren't always the best thing, they can often do the work of several other spells good enough. You may not need to fly that day, but you might run into one the various situations RD mentioned.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What you should have done was have the martial ride the summon.
Can't argue with that. That's pretty heckin' sweet
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Doesn't this bring us full circle though? The discussion about summon spells was prompted by the fact that the Summoner class is focused around the Eidolon, not actual summon spells, and you didn't like that. But now you're saying that what a summoner themed character *really* needs is the ability to summon something that can go toe to toe against a same-level threat in melee, preferrably without wasting high level slots. But guess what? That ability already exists. That's the Eidolon.
That shouldn't be pinned on Deriven. It was me and like one or two other people who said the name was misleading. Deriven started this thread to state that summoners are a better class than he thought. Which even I think the summoner is a fine class, just misnamed
Was an ability ever suggested (or is there already something) that lets the Eidolon take control of a summon, granting it some of the Eidolon benefits like better scaling in exchange for taking the Eidolon itself off the field?
Was an ability ever suggested (or is there already something) that lets the Eidolon take control of a summon, granting it some of the Eidolon benefits like better scaling in exchange for taking the Eidolon itself off the field?
I'm mildly confused on the specifics of what you are describing here.
What I am aware of is Meld into Eidolon that lets the Eidolon be the only one of the pair on the battlefield.
There is also Magical Understudy, Magical Adept, and Magical Master that let the Eidolon cast spells themselves. They could use this to cast summoning spells, at which point the Eidolon would be the one sustaining and controlling them. They could also use it to cast Polymorph Battle Form spells like Animal Form and Dragon Form. In both cases, the spell rank is going to be lower than what the Summoner half of the pair could cast, so it is going to be relegated to the realm of 'cute trick' that may have niche use where it is good, rather than optimal combat strategy.
|
|
The last page of this thread is somewhat enlightening, Dev plays with modified homebrew 5e-ish spellcasters and their group runs the unbalanced meta rinse and repeat Fighter Trip+AoO, Defuff, and Action denial meta. That explains a LOT about his perspective.
This is not to say that there is anything wrong with doing that but it's very clear they're playing to optimize in what is essentially one of the only "solved" ways to trivialize encounters which just so happens to hamper build variety and choice of actions they can elect to take greatly. In comparison to that, so long as the group is okay doing rinse-repeat encounters "pushing the same three buttons" over and over and don't get bored there really ISN'T a reason for them to mix it up at all. In other words, he's arguing that for anything to change how they do things and for him to consider it worthwhile it has to be BETTER than the existing meta they're married to.
That said, I find it kinda odd that he goes on to say that easy fights are boring because what they're doing is the most straightforward way to make pretty much any completely unfair encounter against a party as easy as possible while essentially just creating a brain-off action rotation.
Was an ability ever suggested (or is there already something) that lets the Eidolon take control of a summon, granting it some of the Eidolon benefits like better scaling in exchange for taking the Eidolon itself off the field?I'm mildly confused on the specifics of what you are describing here.
What I am aware of is Meld into Eidolon that lets the Eidolon be the only one of the pair on the battlefield.
There is also Magical Understudy, Magical Adept, and Magical Master that let the Eidolon cast spells themselves. They could use this to cast summoning spells, at which point the Eidolon would be the one sustaining and controlling them. They could also use it to cast Polymorph Battle Form spells like Animal Form and Dragon Form. In both cases, the spell rank is going to be lower than what the Summoner half of the pair could cast, so it is going to be relegated to the realm of 'cute trick' that may have niche use where it is good, rather than optimal combat strategy.
I mean, the Summoner casts a summoning spell, then the Eidolon possesses that summon, granting it the Eidolon's bonuses to hit and AC (and whatever else makes sense) but the Eidolon is no longer on the field as a separate entity.
It seems like it could be a fun trick to power up a summon at the cost of having an active Eidolon.
I mean, the Summoner casts a summoning spell, then the Eidolon possesses that summon, granting it the Eidolon's bonuses to hit and AC (and whatever else makes sense) but the Eidolon is no longer on the field as a separate entity.
It seems like it could be a fun trick to power up a summon at the cost of having an active Eidolon.
It is deep into homebrew territory here, but how about Share Eidolon Magic but run it backwards, where the Summoner can specify one or two of their spells that the Eidolon can cast. And have one of them be a Polymorph Battle Form spell. I'm not sure that the battle form will have better stats than the Eidolon itself will though.
Though also at that point, you are still risking your own HP in battle rather than the HP of the summoned creature.
I could see the appeal of summoning being less in Deverin's games thanks to the 5e casting house rule. A big part of the spell's appeal is that preparing a single slot or spell known can potentially replace blasts, walls, flight, teleport, illusions, healing, or buffs in the right situation. But if you have house ruled to significantly increase caster versatility and on-demand access to more spells, then a single spell covering lots of space has less value.
What you should have done was have the martial ride the summon.Can't argue with that. That's pretty heckin' sweet
Right? You can also potentially move multiple PCs with it, particularly when your level is high enough to summon Huge dragons. An adult gold dragon could move your entire party 360 feet every turn. Quite good for getting into the fray or fleeing a bad situation. You could also use it for my aforementioned lava example.