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Is there a class that gives out bonuses to allies every time they take damage as well as providing some kind of incentive to attack them and not the allies, perhaps a reaction to actually step in the way and take the attack?
I do understand how "never goes down" is not a feature that PF2 will give out easily, but a D12 HP heavy armor class is not something in the game, I think the soldier playtest from SF2 has some interesting elements that could be drawn on here, just with no ranged/heavy weapons focus and instead either going emblematic shield for pure defender, Pole arm banner carrier for more support the team focus, and perhaps even magical staff with a *necromancer/summoned legion of extraplanar creatures as the minion focused branch all feel possible.
*Like a D12 hp non-casting creature caller that does rituals to have their swarm/troop of non-sentient creatures to command around and get bonuses from the character.
My Barbarian Sentinel is totally a D12 hp heavy armor class. He is a Dwarf, so Toughness + Mountain Stoutness in the future. Maybe not Never goes down, but not that far.
Likely should have made him MC Champion rather than Sentinel though.
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You still haven't specified what exactly you are trying to emulate. Remember that I haven't really played PF1 or D&D4. So just saying 'commander' doesn't really mean anything to me, and Marshal is the PF2 archetype.
Is there a class that gives out bonuses to allies every time they take damage
I can't think of anything off-hand. Though there may be a reaction of some sort.
I know there is Blood Vendetta and Needle of Vengeance that will do damage in retaliation for taking damage.
as well as providing some kind of incentive to attack them and not the allies, perhaps a reaction to actually step in the way and take the attack?
Champion has some of those. The Good Champion Reactions in general punish attacking nearby allies. It feels like a waste of an attack. There may not be an option to step in and take all of the damage and effects of an attack, but there are things like Shield Warden and Devoted Guardian.
Edit: Oh, and Swashbuckler has Antagonize and Guardian's Deflection and Thaumaturge has Amulet. For other similar ideas and concepts.
Along these lines, I could imagine something like the PoE monk, call it a flagellant or something. (I mentioned this in another thread). Con based class centered around focus ability reactions. A level one reaction that gives then DR against triggering attack for 1 focus. Give them a base reaction as well, like an AoO against something that damaged them. Make them sticky with either a follow reaction or something like a champion reaction that throws their body on front of a party member. So I imagine the first round the flagellant gets hit, gets DR. Next round the bad guy goes after someone else, so you use your reaction to basically body block and take the hit.
Challenges would be separating it enough from both barbarian and evil champions.
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The Marshal Archetype is very much weak and mechanically uninspiring if you want to emulate a warlord or commander. With a 10ft. aura, this warlord/commander can only inspire a single troop.
There's plenty of mechanical design space for an actual commander. For example, there's not much relying around positioning (I don't know if it's done on purpose). I remember the D&D4 Bard with its ability to reposition allies as a reaction, pretty much like a Liberator. Add up a few composition-like effects and you have a good commander which is not stepping on anyone's toe.
As for tanks, I'm always a bit reluctant for this kind of gameplay. I think it's one of the main issue of D&D4. Tanking by just having a bunch of hit points/AC/saves works ok (and there are already quite a few classes able to do that). But as soon as you start having aggro management features, it becomes way too gamey for a TTRPG.
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The Marshal Archetype is very much weak and mechanically uninspiring if you want to emulate a warlord or commander. With a 10ft. aura, this warlord/commander can only inspire a single troop.
There's plenty of mechanical design space for an actual commander. For example, there's not much relying around positioning (I don't know if it's done on purpose). I remember the D&D4 Bard with its ability to reposition allies as a reaction, pretty much like a Liberator. Add up a few composition-like effects and you have a good commander which is not stepping on anyone's toe.
As for tanks, I'm always a bit reluctant for this kind of gameplay. I think it's one of the main issue of D&D4. Tanking by just having a bunch of hit points/AC/saves works ok (and there are already quite a few classes able to do that). But as soon as you start having aggro management features, it becomes way too gamey for a TTRPG.
This is absolute truth and inspires me to be a better tactician. Thank you. Finger crossed for warlord equivalent
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Like being able to debuff the enemy to attacks against all creatures but yourself. Hmm...
condition: Challenged X - You have -X status penalty to attack any creature except the one who gave you this condition. If you successfully strike any creature that you have a penalty against, they have resistance equal to your level times X against any damage you inflict. This condition automatically reduces by one step if the creature who applied this effect does not attempt a strike on you the next turn. It ends completely if the creature who applied this effect makes a strike against any other creature.
On the other aspect, it is true that we do not have AFAICT a "Get attacked/hurt, Get stronger" class. But I am not sure such a class can be done well in PF2.
Base ability: +1 damage for every full 10 hitpoints missing
automatically scales through it's formula :PBut Unser what you mean, thats hard to build up upon and probably needs a bunch of custom reactions, thresholds to keep track off and actual payoff when one gets there without being overpowered
And a whole class? Maybe an archetype or something
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On the other aspect, it is true that we do not have AFAICT a "Get attacked/hurt, Get stronger" class. But I am not sure such a class can be done well in PF2.Base ability: +1 damage for every full 10 hitpoints missing
automatically scales through it's formula :PBut Unser what you mean, thats hard to build up upon and probably needs a bunch of custom reactions, thresholds to keep track off and actual payoff when one gets there without being overpowered
And a whole class? Maybe an archetype or something
Could be an archetype, but there is the very real pitfall of the PC (or their allies) damaging themselves to get MOAR POWER.
Backin 3.5 there was the Crusader which could delay some incoming damage and depending on how high that delayed pool you got a damage boost
.. and accuracy boost but that eould br less likely in system in something like pf2e.
There is already a feat that lets you use your shield to protect an adjacent ally. Letting a character step between as a reaction and take the hit isn’t a gamist aggro ability. If doing so have bonuses to damage against the triggering attacker, then it won’t work to have someone else do the damage to the PC. The minion version could use their troop/swarm as the interposing force.
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There is already a feat that lets you use your shield to protect an adjacent ally. Letting a character step between as a reaction and take the hit isn’t a gamist aggro ability. If doing so have bonuses to damage against the triggering attacker, then it won’t work to have someone else do the damage to the PC. The minion version could use their troop/swarm as the interposing force.
TBT the problem I see with this is that the player will try to get their bonus everytime. They will be hovering near their fellow PCs hoping they get hit, even worse than the Champion. And they will hate Champions with a fury if the Champion's reaction prevents their own power boost from happening.
I really really have trouble imagining such a mechanic in PF2.
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There is already a feat that lets you use your shield to protect an adjacent ally. Letting a character step between as a reaction and take the hit isn’t a gamist aggro ability. If doing so have bonuses to damage against the triggering attacker, then it won’t work to have someone else do the damage to the PC. The minion version could use their troop/swarm as the interposing force.
The issue with such play styles is that they are "absolute". If you take all damage of an ally, then this ally no more needs defenses. And then you can bring another build that is crazy strong in one thing but who's drawback is defense, drawback entirely nullified as long as you stay close to the one who takes damage instead of you. They are combo baits.
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Certainly at level 1, you’d only be able to use 1 reaction, so it’d be once a round protection. AoE would still effect both as would multiple attackers, I don’t think it’d be a shut down defensive technique by any means. Also, I think combo synergy is a good thing to build towards in the game.
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Also, I think combo synergy is a good thing to build towards in the game.
I vastly disagree. Combos have to be avoided as much as possible (and as a fact, they are extremely rare in PF2).
Combos:
- Generate balancing issues. Between a character/party with combos and one without combos the power level is vastly different (Cf. PF1).
- Reward system mastery a lot, something you may not want in a game who's not only about tactics.
- Push players to intervene in other player's builds/play, especially when we speak of group combos.
Combos are fun but they generate too many issues.
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It is a very real possibility that one or more of the existing Archetypes that exist and that are super popular such as the Sentinel or Marshal could EASILY be expanded out into full Classes and with the Remaster there is absolutely zero guarantee that they will be reprinted as-is, after all, several books worth of Archetypes are going to be replaced quite soon.
I see no reason why they couldn't create a FULL Sentinel Class and then release a Multiclass Archetype for it that is more or less equivalent to the existing Archetype by simply adding a half dozen more Feats to it and slapping the Multiclass Trait onto them all.
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Synergies have been present between classes since the beginning of PF2.
Evidence:
The bard and martials or lots of pets
Any good champion and a low defense striker
Fire oracles and fire parties
Fear and fear exploiting parties
Fog/darkness and blind-fight/non-sight sense parties
Scoundrel rogues and will targeting casters
These are just a couple that I have seen in play. There are tons more ways to build characters that are much stronger in a pair or whole team than as individuals in the game already. It is a lot of fun to build around group tactics when you are with a group of players you know well and can talk through the potential difficult spots.
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Synergies have been present between classes since the beginning of PF2.
I've spoken about combos, not synergies. I know 3 of them:
- Fear-based parties. But there's nearly only Dread Striker who benefits from such party, so it's rather limited.
- Trip-based parties. But considering that nearly every martial has access to AoO it can even be considered a basic effect of Trip and not a combo.
- Fog + Blind-Fight parties.
And that's all (there may be a couple more, but they are overall really rare).
Bringing a character who can take blows instead of their allies will raise new combos. An easy one is to make a porcupine out of the defender: Vibrant Thorns, Blood Vendetta, Fire Shield, etc... so enemies will stop attacking the party as their first attack will result in a lot of pain.
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There's also elemental damage mafia. That is, using the Forcible Energy wizard feat to make someone vulnerable to acid/electricity/fire/sonic damage and making sure your martials all have runes that deal that type of damage. It can get kind of brutal given it's +5 to damage rolls against the target for a round, functionally. Especially on a flurry ranger.
You add the elemental Familiar for an extra +1 and a Witch with Elemental Betrayal. You can even add an Alchemist for Energy Mutagens so you can use it right at level 1. Yes, this one works, too.
But overall, I feel that these "combos" are not overwhelmingly strong. A character who can take damage in place of another one, that is easy to abuse. Another combo would be to use a Barbarian with Vengeful Strike who's hit a lot despite not taking damage and triggering Vengeful Strike easily.
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Synergies have been present between classes since the beginning of PF2.I've spoken about combos, not synergies. I know 3 of them:
I don't think there's really a difference in kind between "combos" and "synergies". It's all just a sliding scale. You can put enough dots on that graph (Hi dangerous Terrain/forced move! Hi clustered party optimization!) that there's no real place left to draw a dividing line.
I mean... I feel like a party heavy on will attacks and Bon Mot is as much a "combo" as the Dread Striker thing... or heck - a party of Iruxi with easy access to difficult terrain creation. This stuff's all over the place.
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I hardly see “step in and redirect the attack at me” as any more powerful than a redeemer champion’s “completely negate the attack, or do less damage and be enfeebled through the next round. The defender character is still taking the full regular hit, not negating all or a large amount of the damage (and future damage for the rest of this round and next). It is mechanically different enough if it includes some kinda boost to attack the target, but not more powerful and in is ver different narratively from what we have currently, which is why I think there is room for it.
All that would be needed is to make it clear whether the ability triggers after targeting, but before die rolling, or after attack rolls but before damage. Again, both could work but would change what the class build would look like. There’d be no point to being a heavy armor class at all if the ability triggered after the attack roll, so the class would probably need a couple of temp hp, resistance, or healing abilities or they’d just get crushed unconscious all the time. If the step in before die rolls with a higher AC, they don’t need nearly as much of that stuff, and allies reactions that trigger when getting hit would all become much less useful to that party.
I have very much played the striking Monk with lower defenses alongside the redeemer champion. It makes it a lot better for the redeemer champion to have that ally who actually draws attacks and is fairly easy to hit. The high AC-step in defender would less incentivize the low AC, high damage ally from letting their defenses get too low because they don’t need to get hit to trigger it, just be targeted, and there wouldn’t be follow up damage limiting options to the attack if the defender class gave bonuses to attacking the enemy back. Again it would be different but not so different from what is available that it would disrupt party building tactics.
Any new class that doesn’t offer new game play options for the whole party, only for the individual character feels like a class that isn’t adding as much to the game. Psychics, Thaumaturges, inventors, Kineticists, even gunslingers, Magi and Summoners all can change the whole party build from what was available before. Whatever classes we get, I hope this stays true.
The Marshal Archetype is very much weak and mechanically uninspiring if you want to emulate a warlord or commander. With a 10ft. aura, this warlord/commander can only inspire a single troop.
There's plenty of mechanical design space for an actual commander. For example, there's not much relying around positioning (I don't know if it's done on purpose). I remember the D&D4 Bard with its ability to reposition allies as a reaction, pretty much like a Liberator. Add up a few composition-like effects and you have a good commander which is not stepping on anyone's toe.
As for tanks, I'm always a bit reluctant for this kind of gameplay. I think it's one of the main issue of D&D4. Tanking by just having a bunch of hit points/AC/saves works ok (and there are already quite a few classes able to do that). But as soon as you start having aggro management features, it becomes way too gamey for a TTRPG.
Marshall has at least 4 feats based around positioning:
Cadence CallTactical Cadence
Coordinated Charge
To Battle!
They also have access to Snap Out of It! Which is pretty OP. Their aura size shouldn't be a huge problem once they get high enough bonuses to crit pretty consistently, but more than anything they are meant to lead from the front. I guess you could build a class that is meant to lead from the back, buuuut... IDK, how badly do we need that when Bard is a thing? And what does the class do on its own?
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The high AC-step in defender would less incentivize the low AC, high damage ally from letting their defenses get too low because they don’t need to get hit to trigger it, just be targeted, and there wouldn’t be follow up damage limiting options to the attack if the defender class gave bonuses to attacking the enemy back.
For me, the biggest problem with a 'step in and take all of the damage' ability is that it takes all of the damage. And likely all of the other effects of the hit.
The only thing that comes close to that is Lifelink, but that is for familiars exclusively.
Most of the rest allow only blocking damage like Shield Warden or Dancing Shield, or taking some of the damage and none of the other effects like Shield Other.
Taking all of an ally's damage in their place looks like an outlier.
I could see having a reaction that lets you body block. Similar to a mix of Shield Warden and Shield Other. You step in and take half the damage of a hit for an ally and the ally takes the remaining damage and all of the other effects.
I wouldn't want that combined with abilities that power either you or your allies up when you take damage.
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I also don't think that the fact that Marshal is an already existing archetype it makes it less likely for a Commander-like class to appear. Talisman Dabbler and Scroll Trickster were already existing archetypes which were pretty much merged into Thaumaturge feats because they fitted the class.
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What you are all talking about is Paladin's Sacrifice. That ability not only already exists in setting but its something that by lore and by right belongs to the Champion.
And its existence as a Paladin ability since PF1 Advanced Player's Guide indicates to me that the ability was omitted from the Champion in PF2 deliberately.
Though now that I say that, it reminds me that there is something similar. Champion's Sacrifice. It costs both your reaction and a focus point. And uses the ally's defenses instead of the Champion's.
I think that the "never before on Golarion" is much more about Lore than about specific mechanics. If there are mechanics the devs want in the game that are tied to lore they are not bringing back, they will move the mechanics. Do we expect these new classes never to get legendary in any skills, because that has already been done as well?
I would love to see a class that works like a wizard but with Divine Spells, like learning them in a Ritual book and being unfettered from a god.
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I don't think there's really a difference in kind between "combos" and "synergies".
There's a big difference between combo and synergy: Combos get more than the sum of their components. For example:
I feel like a party heavy on will attacks and Bon Mot
That is not a combo but a synergy: The goal of Bon Mot is to improve will attacks. Having Bon Mot and a lot of will attacks is just a synergy, you don't get anything "new" out of it.
If you take the example of using Obscuring Mist alongside Blind Fight, you end up with a 20% chance on the party with no drawback. That's not an effect of Obscuring Mist nor an effect of Blind Fight, it's the combination of both that creates this unique defensive effect. This is a combo.
When it comes to Dread Striker and Dirge of Doom I agree that you can discuss if it's a combo or a synergy. I consider it a combo as it turns a circumstantial ability (Dread Striker) into a near given. For example, if you know your Bard will go with Dirge of Doom, playing an archer Rogue works fine when otherwise it's pretty hard to play. It opens up builds which in my opinion proves that it's more a combo than a synergy as you get something out of it that is not the sum of its components.
So, I agree that sometimes there are discussions to choose between combo and synergy, but it's very different than a slider.
A character taking blows instead of you opens up combos, not synergies. I also think that's why there's no such abilities in the game despite their existence in PF1.
I would love to see a class that works like a wizard but with Divine Spells, like learning them in a Ritual book and being unfettered from a god.
That would be the 3.x archivist, pretty much exactly.
By extension, it won't be showing up here.
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I like the idea of an Archivist style class that's all about scrolls. Something like a cross between an Alchemist and a Thaumaturge.
You can use scrolls of any tradition, you are all about knowing things, everyday you get to make a bunch of scrolls from various traditions.
Maybe that can pull out relics and totems which do very speific things against certain enemies types. Perhaps they would be the class that would truly care about Rituals.
Think of it as, if the Thaumaturge is the martial-coded version of the concept, the Archivist would be the caster-coded.
Isn't this just a Fervor Witch?I would love to see a class that works like a wizard but with Divine Spells, like learning them in a Ritual book and being unfettered from a god.
Especially if the Remastered rules let Witch have familiars that are items and the Fervor Witch has a religious ritual book as their familiar.
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Especially if the Remastered rules let Witch have familiars that are items and the Fervor Witch has a religious ritual book as their familiar.Isn't this just a Fervor Witch?I would love to see a class that works like a wizard but with Divine Spells, like learning them in a Ritual book and being unfettered from a god.
Item familiars are a Baba Yaga Witch feature. Please do not steal their special thing.
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Having a familiar that is an item was exclusive to Baba Yaga being your patron (matron?)
speaking of which (witch) I haven't scene her remaster.
She was not in the core books of PF2. So not in Remastered.
Maybe the Witches in other books (such as Baba Yaga) will get an errata, but I have little hope for such a very specific thing.
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Having an item as a familiar used to be a half-elf thing in 1e... I wasn't aware of any association with Baba Yaga (except her hut, which is special for several other reasons) but in any case it was never a special thing exclusive to her witches.
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Having an item as a familiar used to be a half-elf thing in 1e... I wasn't aware of any association with Baba Yaga (except her hut, which is special for several other reasons) but in any case it was never a special thing exclusive to her witches.
AFAIK in PF2, it very much is.
"A witch with Baba Yaga as their patron can choose an inanimate object as a familiar."I know of no other similar ability in PF2.
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Having an item as a familiar used to be a half-elf thing in 1e... I wasn't aware of any association with Baba Yaga (except her hut, which is special for several other reasons) but in any case it was never a special thing exclusive to her witches.AFAIK in PF2, it very much is.
"A witch with Baba Yaga as their patron can choose an inanimate object as a familiar."I know of no other similar ability in PF2.
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Magaambyan Mask Familiar is somewhat similar.
Item familiars are a Baba Yaga Witch feature. Please do not steal their special thing.
And I very much would like to steal that thing. I don't think that needs to be the exclusive special thing of Baba Yaga Witch. Especially not with the Remaster giving more flavor and power to the choice of Patron.
Mostly I want to be able to play a Witch character without being required to have two characters to role-play.