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So I was thinking that if SF2e gets rarity system from PF2e, it has to be adjusted to standards of the setting.
Like its always kinda funny to think of difference between level 20 common, uncommon and rare monster(at least with summon spells uncommon means it can't be summoned even with level 10 summon spell) since for any of them level 1 character can't roll good with recall knowledge anyway, so it becomes this "okay this creature is legendary and this creature is so obscure even scholars probably don't know it exists" kind of dealio.
However, starfinder 1e had funny feature of "as long you have access to internet and have about 2 minutes worth of time, you can take nat 20". So you would think by that logic, its much easier to find basic info about common level 20 creatures. So assuming all super high level creatures aren't uncommon or rare in starfinder, it would make sense to use uncommon or rare traits as modifiers for how long it takes to find information(or if its even possible) on local infosphere :D
(note: I also think that due to whole interstellar cantina feel of starfinder, the meaning of uncommon and rare has to be drastically different from pathfinder so I'm curious of how devs solve that when it comes to equipment and such.
Like I could see possibility of "what if uncommon items ACTUALLY require players to have access to them with license they have bought or trained for", that would be more fun to me than 1e style "uh, gm can stop players buying higher level items they somehow have money for from high level settlements by quoting licenses" :D
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The point of rarity in RK checks is not about don't know anything about a creature but don't know the details about it.
That said I a setting with lot more available and distributed information like a Sci-fi with an easily access to open networks like internet full of info or even without signal but carrying any small device like a smartphone full of information about monsters, societies and etc . It's hard to defend the you don't get any info due to the level difference or rarity.
I can really imagine a character taking a photo with their smartphone and an app instantly giving them known public information about a person, creature or place. This maybe not so easily to do during an encounter (so RK may still useful) but outside it I would consider it perfectly normal and I can imagine some stealthy player using this to take info before the encounter begins.
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Tbh, this even applies to unique creatures aka npcs :'D Like treating your dice result as nat 20 for purpose of trying to identify unique npc (who isn't operating anonymously, unique being never encountered by wider society or such) with internet sounds about right. If you aren't super good at googling, you might only find common information(with the said unique trait +10 dc adjustment) but you'd still find it.
If devs wanted to make particular horrific commentary on modern society, they could make infosphere information security purchasable upgrade :'D
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I don't even need to be super good at googling. The currently AI technology is already able the get info instantly and even speak it like a pokedex. The only restriction is about read all this information in 1-action. But I still can imagine someone with an electronic companion or glasses using to 2-actions to:
A char: Alexa! Give me the weak points of this creature!
Alexa: This dragon type is know to have resistance to fire damage but is weakness to cold!
Why would it take actions for the AI in your helmet/glasses to automatically pull up all known data and display it on your HUD? Most relevant combat data could be just symbols and numbers. Hell the AI could parse whole articles and provide only relevant data with no actions on your part.
With thousands of years of tech advancement and magic, such an item should be considered a 5cr item with a real world equivalent. Before long this will be a feature barely worth mentioning. Just like your phone's ability to make a call.
Hell, it doesn't even have to be a HUD. That's ancient tech. Just transfer the data through my jack and it's instantly like I always knew it. Let me spend one action to slot in some skillsoft and now I have expert level prof in a skill. Throw in some extra credits to get master level prof.
Again it's the super future with magic, this is some basic tech.
It's still a game about the PCs and what they do. SF1 still had plenty of things taken actions, and didn't generally have VI systems handling much on their own. Mechanic was the class for really integrating yourself with AI-provided skills and the like.
It's still a game about the PCs and what they do. SF1 still had plenty of things taken actions, and didn't generally have VI systems handling much on their own. Mechanic was the class for really integrating yourself with AI-provided skills and the like.
First off, AI was only a 10% increase to a computer system. It's very cheap and easy to have AI npcs performing a bunch of actions for you.
Secondly, the mechanics of actions and skills should be built around the idea that technology exists. That it has done things like make memorizing things worthless and processing information effortless. And it did so many hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago.
The world of SF should in no way resemble the world of PF, and the mechanics need to change to reflect that. A PF fighter has to spend an action to remember a red dragon breaths fire. A PF fighter is flat f&%$ed if they get shot into the vacuum of space because they have no protections from it nor options to deal with it. Neither scenario is an issue for a SF soldier because tech has trivialized both. The soldier's HUD automatically displays relevant data, and literally all armor(and a lot of clothing) has full life support fields and they can call space 911 for help.
If a SF soldier got sent back in time, they should have no problem with disease because their basic nanite suite protects them. If a PF fighter got sent forward in time should just instantly die because they don't have the basic nanite suite to survive in an environment full of nanites. And SF has nanites so the environment is just lousy with them because it's essentially impossible for it not to be. Regular nanite updates would be the equivalent of flu vaccines today.
You do remember that both games are gonna use the same ruleset and be compatible with each other right?
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SF1's artificial personality upgrades allowed voice commands, but weren't acting as independent NPCs. Starfinder made a pretty clear distinction between AIs and VIs, and the computer's skill modifiers were always pretty lousy.
I don't have any issues with computers giving bonuses to recalling knowledge, eliminating rarity penalties, or allowing rerolls. "Your computer starts combat by telling everyone the enemy creatures' vulnerabilities during initiative", not so much.
Well, we currently have the internet. That's close enough, right?
So, you encountered something. It turned into an octopus and is now latched on to your friend and is biting them with its sharp beak. It looks like it is causing poison damage.
So go ahead and look it up and find out what other tricks it has.
You do remember that both games are gonna use the same ruleset and be compatible with each other right?
Yeah, and that's a problem.
SF1's artificial personality upgrades allowed voice commands, but weren't acting as independent NPCs. Starfinder made a pretty clear distinction between AIs and VIs, and the computer's skill modifiers were always pretty lousy.
True, but an irrelevant semantic argument. Whether or not the computer program has true sentience, it can still perform the tasks. And the control module lets computers do a lot more than voice commands.
I don't have any issues with computers giving bonuses to recalling knowledge, eliminating rarity penalties, or allowing rerolls. "Your computer starts combat by telling everyone the enemy creatures' vulnerabilities during initiative", not so much.
A lot of people take issues with technological realities but it makes little difference. One of my players has an issue with life support force fields in everything completely negating all but the most extreme of environmental factors from day one. Should we make SF characters wear bulking suits to do a space walk simply because that's how a PF character might do it?
The very idea that ganic people would still be bothering to make knowledge skill checks is silly for the technological progression SF is at. That anything involving a computer would take a manual action, laughable. You jack in and perform all functions faster than a PF character can think.
SF characters should look at physical interfaces and manual research the way you or I look at flint knapping.
Sorry, I don't like the idea of nanites forming into an item. SF characters need to use a hammer and coal forge to craft a knife. Fine, they can use UPDs. But it takes the same amount of actions as a hammer and coal forge!
Yeah, and that's a problem.
A you problem.
Using the same ruleset and being compatible with each other doesn't have to mean that Starfinder is just a repainted Pathfinder. Things can work differently as long as the rules engine is the same.
work differently and not work at all are two different things (obviously), which is what you’d get by having P2 characters being useless/instantly dying just due to *vague* specs/tech/nanite stuff existing, which is what I was responding to.
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I'd rather have thread focus discussing on how SF2e plans to handle googling rather than potential of in combat AI googling assistant, but maybe I'm just old fashioned when it comes to google
Rarety might be a better way than level. to make getting info harder.
For example, I can right now google what weapon systems an F35 can use, even though an F35 would be a 20th-level item to me.On the other hand googling what the next big Pokimon card will be prerelease would be very hard to find even as a level 0 item.
If I google what really is going on at Are 51, I will quickly find tons of information, but could spend a lifetime looking for the true facts and still not find them.
Also info might be common in one star system and rare in another. To represent that it might be better to make it take longer than harder to show the delay from the distance.
Giving comm units AI assistants a stat for search penalties or bonuses could be one way to address how a search is done through an AI. Could apply to other types of AI as well. But the comm unit is the one most likely used in combat situations. I use my comm unit enough I should probably be forced to take the comm unit expert archetype.
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I mean that's why I'm asking, because PF2e doesn't have rules for taking nat 20, so how are they going to handle it in system that has different assumptions? Like just auto succeeding on normal roll would feel bit off considering whole idea of it was that you can get fast amount of information from internet with basic research
It just doesn't seem like "googling the monster to learn about it" should be an effective tactic *in combat*. Like sure, you have sci-fi computers, but "I am effective at identifying monsters using the infosphere" seems like a specific ability some folks might have. Otherwise it's probably nobody's first thought in the middle of a firefight.
In terms of "researching a thing when you're not currently in danger" you'd either "not require a roll for that since it's something you can easily find out" or if it's something actually obscure that requires difficult research you could use something like the Victory Points system from the GMG. The former would be for like "what kind of people live in the Veskarium" and the latter would be for "the only records of this thing exists in the folklore of the people indigenous to this planet as a thing that shows up when the comet goes by every 200 years, what can we learn about it that's actually useful."
It just doesn't seem like "googling the monster to learn about it" should be an effective tactic *in combat*.
Why? Because someone with a normal ganic brain needs to manually parse through a bunch of data? Why are we building things under that baseline assumption? Because that's how it was 2,000 years ago?
You say google, I say a VI near instantaneously puts relevant combat data in my HUD. I say such a thing is next to nothing in a far flung future with magic. AR combat goggles are not some far flung science fiction thing.
You say using the infosphere to identify things seems like a specific ability. I say such a task hasn't been left to people since well before the gap.
You say "yeah sure you have sci-fi computers". I say the datapad in my character's pocket can perform quantum calculations and it's considered slow.
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The GM sliding over the enemy stats at the start of each fight isn't actually fun for most folks. There's a reason most science fiction doesn't feature a few thousand years of advances in computers: that kinda sucks for stories. Dune and Warhammer 40k mostly get rid of autonomous computers, Star Wars mostly just has intelligent droids, and Star Trek has Spock or Data giving assessments rather than the ship's computer.
If I have a computer in my character's head feeding them combat information, I want that to be a cool Mechanic feature they built themselves, not "anybody with a five-credit device can do that", or the more realistic "five credit device with an expensive subscription service by a company that is secretly muddying publicly available combat information to drive 'competitive advantage for our loyal customers'".
And sure, that's my opinion. I really doubt you're alone in your opinion, and a non-trivial of folks would like more advanced computers. It might be a good Starfinder Infinite thing, assuming (possibly incorrectly) that Paizo doesn't go with something more like your version. But I don't think most people would prefer never rolling knowledge checks.
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It just doesn't seem like "googling the monster to learn about it" should be an effective tactic *in combat*. Like sure, you have sci-fi computers, but "I am effective at identifying monsters using the infosphere" seems like a specific ability some folks might have. Otherwise it's probably nobody's first thought in the middle of a firefight.
Took me seconds to type how to fight a bear and get this:
How to Survive a Bear Attack .How useful that is in combat is another thing as you point out. That changes a bit in a group where the people in the party use skills to learn a creature's weaknesses and are usually not the front-line fighters. If your comm using is voice-activated that helps too. Using a comm unit to get info is not as fast as recalling knowledge, in a
3-action economeny using a comm unit like that could take more actions.
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How I would set this up to work:
- If the character can identify the creature, the computer can tell them all about it. But most people aren't going to be able to confidently say "That's a Quantum Slime!" right off the top of their head.
- A computer can identify a creature based purely on visual information, but this is a time consuming process-after all there are a huge number of potential things it needs to rule out (there are many protoplasmic things in space that are not Quantum Slimes.)
- As an exploration activity you only need to roll for "how long it takes you to learn everything you need to learn" not for "do you learn it."
- If it's a truly obscure thing (like one particularly dangerous variant of a Quantum Slime that was caused by an accident at an incredibly top secret research project where everybody involved has worked tirelessly to bury all references to any of this ever happening), you need to use the Victory Points System for research.
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Okay dropping the sword and scifi part of the discussion and references that you started with your umbrage with Fighters since it devolved into this, so on to this:
I'm not ignoring the fantasy part.
You explicitly are, you’re trying to downplay it as much as possible and have shown nothing but contempt for the fact that it exists.
It's a science fantasy game. Emphasis on the science, Starfinder is not Spelljammer.
It’s a science fantasy setting.
The scifi and the magic and the fantasy all go together. You have soldiers with high tech and spaceships and you have magic users and people fighting with melee weapons alongside guns and mechs and monsters. That’s a part of the setting, it’s not being removed or ignored. There’s tech, there’s swords, there’s people doing superhuman stuff with and won’t tech and magic.
For purposes of dramatic tension, it's preferable to not give the heroes of the story perfectly accurate information immediately whenever it would be of use to them. So even if science fiction technology could justify doing so, it's still better when the folks on the Enterprise actually need to figure something out in order to modify the deflector array to emit a reverse tachyon pulse in order to solve the problem.
Problems that are trivialized by "just google it" or "just fly over the bears" probably shouldn't be problems that come up very often in the course of an adventure, since it's just busywork for the PCs. It's the problems that are harder to solve that are the ones we want to highlight.
I don't see a problem to have something like the Pino's scan and RK ability this doesn't means that info about everything will be available specially from unique not well know monsters and NPCs.
IMO the dramatic tension could already be archieved by restricting access information to key NPCs. For the rest would be fun if you are easily able to use some actions to get info.
Joke time
I mean, the computers on the Enterprise are magic boxes that do impossible things at impossible speeds with basically no input from the crew. And the thing they need to figure out is usually not really much of a thing. All of this being completely controlled by a dramatic narrative.
Here is how I would stat out a Star Trek computer:
This box can do theoretically anything. The first time you use it, it doesn't quite work or gives slightly incorrect information. Make a skill check, it doesn't matter what. Now say something like "But you forgot about the protein shells" or "All we needed to do was reverse the polarity" or maybe even throw in a "We thought of it as constant law, but that is only true for 4th dimensions and lower". Whatever you do, you figure out the thing or solve the problem. If the math/science/technology to solve the problem doesn't exist, it does now. Decide how many nameless people are killed/saved based on your roll.
And I'm only kinda being snarky here. Make the role a 2d6 and have 2-3 lines about 7-9 and 10+ effects and you have a solid PBtA custom move.
Joke time over
But to be serious. The problem is "flying over the bears" invalidates the challenge of the bears. As I said, I don't like the solution that you can only fly at level 13+. I prefer the solution that there is a bunch of flying bears.
Now in Starfinder this isn't a problem, so players can have flight. The reason why this isn't a problem is that technology gave everyone guns. Technology solved it in a similar fashion as there being a bunch of flying bears.
The problem is "I need to know something about a creature that is commonly to uncommonly known". Now in Pathfinder, people have to remember things, so it's an action.
Now in Starfinder this isn't a problem, so players don't have to spend an action. The reason why this isn't a problem is that technology gave everyone a scouter.
And this can still involve plenty of dramatic tension. Something being hidden/removed from the scouters/networks could be a major plot point or even the basis for an entire campaign. Class abilities or gear that hide you from scanners could be a whole thing.
Joke time
Somewhere our wires are getting crossed. You're saying technology can invalidate problems and make things a common option. I'm saying technology can invalidate remembering things and so you don't need to spend actions to get data and you're getting mad! Do you see where I'm like...!?
Joke time over
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I mean, the thing about "flying over the totally mundane animal means you never have to fight it" that's fine, but that means you should never fight totally mundane animals once people have easy access to flight because that's not interesting. It's exactly the same as- once people have easy access to flight, don't make "climb up the cliff/get over the chasm" a challenge since it's now boring.
So the question about "is tech just going to be a substitute for Recall Knowledge" is isomorphic to "do you want identifying creatures and receiving incomplete (and perhaps incorrect) information to be part of the game." It's okay if the answer to that is "no" but this is a question worth pondering.
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I think Recall Knowledge should be quicker and more accurate info, and getting it from tech, especially the infosphere, should take more time and run the risk of false or bad information.
Flying over a cliff or chasm is the quickest way, but it may not be the stealthiest way. So as useful as flight can be it's not a universal solution to all problems, but that's more of a question of encounter design. If the party is always flying over mundane animals to avoid encounters with them, just add some flying creatures. Make a dragon-sized creature that only hunts flying prey in packs, that should put the fear of flying into most people.
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Removed a TON of baiting and harassing and off topic back and forth. If more flags keep popping up, this thread will be locked.
I wonder if the "automatic identification" thing can be based on player (or item) level.
Like "automatically identifies rare creatures lower than your level, uncommon creatures up to your level, and common creatures 1 greater than your level" or something. Since most of the time when you want players to have to figure out what's going on rather than just being told it, it's going to be in an important/difficult fight where you're fighting enemies that exceed your level.
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I wonder if the "automatic identification" thing can be based on player (or item) level.
Like "automatically identifies rare creatures lower than your level, uncommon creatures up to your level, and common creatures 1 greater than your level" or something. Since most of the time when you want players to have to figure out what's going on rather than just being told it, it's going to be in an important/difficult fight where you're fighting enemies that exceed your level.
If it's too hard to learn about the boss monster at the end, then the party might not get the necessary information needed to fight it. A rare creature could just mean there are not many of them, and they are hard to find. A creature can be very hard to find but well documented on the infosphere. The Loch Ness Monster is extremely rare but very well documented in the web. It's possible that a creature is rare to find and rare to get info on at the same time too.
On Page 133 of the CBR, there is both a chart for creature rarity DCs and Question difficulty DCs
creature rarity DCs is under identify creatures and Question difficulty DCs are under Recall knowledge.
So identifying the creature is if you know what it is. recall knowledge is if you know about the creature, Asking the insphere is, does anyone knows about it? The skill check for using the infosphere is telly if you can find the correct info in the pile of junk in the infosphere, and getting the info might take more time on the infosphere.
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Removed a TON of baiting and harassing and off topic back and forth. If more flags keep popping up, this thread will be locked.
Thank you, I felt too overwhelmed to actually flag anything and I was kinda getting depressed that thread I made to ask something was derailing into off topic back and forth argument...
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One interesting problem is that a huge part of why knowledge is available on the internet now is because of population. Someone has to have added the info you need to the internet, and sometimes there are so many factors that reduce the probability of that being the case by so much that you need to have billions of people just to find one person who would have done it.
Like any time you have a recent problem with an obscure app on a niche device in a specific language. Zero useful google results.
IIRC, lots of the pact worlds populations were shockingly low.
I'm just sayin, in many cases a GM can reasonably say there's nothing helpful on the web, or what is there is a century or two out of date.
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Another is misinformation, intentional or not. Just because you found stuff on the infosphere doesn't mean it is complete or even true.
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And there is still the problem that you have to know enough about what you are searching for in order to find it in any reasonable amount of time. If you only have two seconds to enter the search query, you better have a pretty good idea of what it is already.
I notice that everyone ignored my challenge at the start of this thread.