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Oh - but there is one lesson from PF2 that's likely to be true for SF2 when it comes out. Personal optimization gets less important. Party optimization becomes much moreso.
That's a good point, but how much party optimization you can do dramatically depends on if you are playing with the same group that had time to plan their characters with each other vs. organized play when you have no idea who will be showing up. For organized play, party optimizing, if there is any, usually means quickly deciding to play another character if you have one ready or playing a pregen character.
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I would prefer more build freedom in the game, and then deal with the resulting power imbalance by letting each individual group decide where people want to be on the power curve and self police the individuals.
This paradigm was moved away from intentionally, and I'm grateful. In practice it just results in the GM putting in a ton of extra work and creating awkward social dynamics.
PF2 has what I feel is a lot of illusion of build freedom. The math is so tight that anything that just makes you worse is right out: you need that 18 for the +1 to hit and more chances to crit. Anything outside that lane is right out. While there are theoretically a large number of feats, many of them are incredibly situational, are required for basic functionality, or go into a tree. If the standard tree progression is meh ok awesome you're not really making 3 choices to pick 3 feats you're making 1 choice to follow that tree. It's like the first two years of college. Sure you can pick your classes after all the requirements.. oh wait that's all your classes
This really shows just how little (or not at all?) you've played PF2. The math being tight does not mean you must get every scrap of power you can, it means that if you do go that route the people who don't aren't far behind. 16s in your main stat is totally doable, there are buff/support focused characters who don't need any stat in particular. Feat trees are annoying but they're actually not that common, and when they do crop up they are typically a bit more powerful than their peer feats because of the specialization tradeoff.
However, I can personally attest to the fact that feeling feat starved is a thing. That's why Free Archetype is so popular. It lets you get a lot more breadth and freedom without forcing the GM to rebuild around you.
Many abilities were just taken out of the old classes/races and then are trickled back in as special abilities and choices. On my more cynical days it looks like they designed the system to have X amount of power and then decided to let people have window dressing so it LOOKED like they were building the place.
Part of the problem here is that you're thinking from a 1:1 feature for feature translation perspective, which doesn't actually work when moving between systems. In PF2, intentional design choices make certain things more or less disruptive. Early access to flight is cordoned off intentionally to allow for telling certain stories easier, for example.
The other part is that the balance in previous editions was so bad things given willy nilly to old classes/races would have people roll their eyes at you if you chose them, because just taking something that sounded cool could drop you into the newb bucket or labeled as a powergame purely by accident. Now that things are more balanced, intentionally so, you have to actually be confronted by what it means to get access to those things from a balance or narrative standpoint.
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But I think the "I want to feel build freedom" thing is why the "Free Archetype" variant is incredibly popular in PF2 games. It's only a slight power boost, but it's an enormous flexibility boost.
I love the free Archetype variant, sadly it's not available in organized play. Organized play is the only option I have currently. The point is that people that play organized play are going to see the game differently due to the limitation of organized play. I think that's one cause of a lot of the disagreements on the forums.
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To clarify: Free Archetype is personal preference. There are loads of people over in PF2 spaces who swear by going without it and the game is fully functional baseline. Feeling like you don't have enough feats is a partly symptom of having lots of good options you want to take.
However, even if I did think Free Archetype was *required* to make PF2 a good game (it isn't) we could simply campaign to have Free Archetype a baseline assumption in Starfinder 2, and get it into society play. Free Archetype was added after PF2 started, and they weren't expecting to see it become the #1 most popular optional rule by a wide margin. Nothing prevents us from point out how good it feels as we go into SF2's development.
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PF2 does not have what I consider sufficient build freedom for me to really like the system (starfinder is kind of on the low end of that but got a bit better as it added options), so PF2 being very well balanced doesn't undermine my point.
I think there's quite a lot of practical build freedom in PF2, but... perhaps not the kind that you're used to?
First, I'll say that that "practical" is kind of important here. 3.x gave you a lot of opportunity to make terrible choices. With PF2... well, it's true that there's not but so much flexibility on stats. You need to get your primary attack stat maxxed. You need some sort of answer for AC as well, and that'll generally involve either strength or dex (though that loosens up significantly if you're willing to accept some higher risks in the short term for benefits in the long-term. After that, though? Very few feats are truly mandatory. You've got pretty much full freedom on ancestry, heritage, and ancestry feats. You have skills to assign, and skill feats to go with them - useful and interesting stuff that you can do that's also not locked in. You've got class feats. Some of those class feats are very good, but I've had debates with fellow players where I can't imagine letting go of any of the class feats I get for a given class, and they're generally inclined to spend early every single one of them on archetypes... and both options will result in something playable.
Anyone can have a fully functional animal companion, if they like. Anyone can cast spells like (insert casting class of choice) or borrow the main schticks from (class), though not quite as well. Anyone can get a side order of "party buffer" or "medic" or "snarecrafter". Anyone can develop the ability to use heavy armor effectively. Anyone can do any of these things without crippling their ability to function as their base class in a viable way. You can say "I want to be a (base class) and also an (archetype) for (almost) any combination of base class and archetype you like, and have it mostly work. (Playing a caster with an archetype that's all about making weapon attacks may be a little underwhelming, and barbarians who want a side of caster might make themselves a bit sad, but you'll still be *viable*.)
Like, sure, I'm overstating a bit. granted... but not by so much that the core argument is untrue or invalid. There's a ton of character build flexibility out there as far as "I have this character idea in my head, and I want to create it into being and have it still function as a viable PC."
What it doesn't have is the cool/interesting/powerful/broken interlocking crunch synergies. I mean, I feel that. I haven't played SF1, but I have played 3.x. I've built (and run) a halfling warlock-derivative who was all about being able to freely spontaneous-cast Cause Wounds spells with various metamagics. I've built (and run) a character whose animal companion was enormously more powerful than he was. (He was convinced that it was the Chosen One of the Earth Goddess, and his calling was to serve as its prophet and guide.) I understand about the joy of being able to do Silly Things with the system, and it's true that PF2 does not offer that kind of joy in the same way... but that doesn't mean that it's lacking in build flexibility. It's just lacking in ways to exploit the system in order to create characters that the devs never intended. There's a difference.
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free archetype did a lot to make me more interested in pf2 because i thought it was lacking in customization, and while i generally prefer to have it, most of my time with pf2 has been organized play so I've not even used it half the time, and there's still plenty of customization. Hell I just almost completely retrained my champion, from sorc dedication to marshal(plus a couple other feats) and while i haven't played the remade version yet(scheduling is truly the greatest villain) i think he is going to be a very different beast.
then there is the kineticist. what a monster of a class... like, imo they should be looking at it when coming up with future classes/editions.
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Free Archetype isn't allowed in organized play. If your argument requires the use of it, it's already failed.
Organized play is kind of balanced around "the worst constructed party in history can succeed at this challenge" anyway, since you never know who is going to show up and whether or not you're going to get 3 people who specialize in one redundant thing. So I wouldn't even recommend Free Archetype for it.
For APs which are sometimes at the other extreme end of the difficulty curve, I would recommend FA.
PF2 is balanced around the idea that "you can give people triple class feats, and they would get more powerful horizontally rather than vertically." So the game is very stable if you want to fiddle with it like this.
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What it doesn't have is the cool/interesting/powerful/broken interlocking crunch synergies. I mean, I feel that. I haven't played SF1, but I have played 3.x. I've built (and run) a halfling warlock-derivative who was all about being able to freely spontaneous-cast Cause Wounds spells with various metamagics. I've built (and run) a character whose animal companion was enormously more powerful than he was. (He was convinced that it was the Chosen One of the Earth Goddess, and his calling was to serve as its prophet and guide.) I understand about the joy of being able to do Silly Things with the system, and it's true that PF2 does not offer that kind of joy in the same way... but that doesn't mean that it's lacking in build flexibility. It's just lacking in ways to exploit the system in order to create characters that the devs never intended. There's a difference.
I WANT those chrunch synergies. If I didn't, I'd be playing 5th ed.
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What it doesn't have is the cool/interesting/powerful/broken interlocking crunch synergies. I mean, I feel that. I haven't played SF1, but I have played 3.x. I've built (and run) a halfling warlock-derivative who was all about being able to freely spontaneous-cast Cause Wounds spells with various metamagics. I've built (and run) a character whose animal companion was enormously more powerful than he was. (He was convinced that it was the Chosen One of the Earth Goddess, and his calling was to serve as its prophet and guide.) I understand about the joy of being able to do Silly Things with the system, and it's true that PF2 does not offer that kind of joy in the same way... but that doesn't mean that it's lacking in build flexibility. It's just lacking in ways to exploit the system in order to create characters that the devs never intended. There's a difference.I WANT those chrunch synergies. If I didn't, I'd be playing 5th ed.
And I respectfully disagree. If that means we vote it out in the playtest and one side or the other comes out on top, so be it.
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The optimization games in PF2 take place at a different level than in PF1. They're less "theorycrafting your build" and more "optimizing teamwork with the rest of your party."
A group that works well together, understands each other's characters, and uses good tactics in PF2 is hellaciously effective. A group of 4 individuals who never gave a thought to each other is pretty ineffective.
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I understand about the joy of being able to do Silly Things with the system, and it's true that PF2 does not offer that kind of joy in the same way... but that doesn't mean that it's lacking in build flexibility. It's just lacking in ways to exploit the system in order to create characters that the devs never intended.
You're making my point.
"not the intended use" is my favorite part of building characters in role playing games*. Unintended synergies make wonderful and creative opportunities. The vexing dodger was intended for humans to go climbing on giants like kratos. You put it on a foxform kitsune and they can pull that trick with halflings. Starfinders healing channel makes a great kumbaya happy skippy healer... but it also lets you self heal so your engine of wonton destruction can NEVER DIE!!!
I love it when people see my characters in action and say "what the HELL did you make...." I love seeing the weird stuff other players come up with as either a fellow party member or a dm. I love it when weird things the players make interact oddly with the adventure I'm running.
It's just lacking in ways to exploit the system in order to create characters that the devs never intended.
If every character can be anticipated you are not building a character you are picking one. I want to build characters not pick them.
Pathfinder 2 doesn't even let you decide where to put your own stats. You can't even say "Well i'm going to build an alchemist to bash things lets get an 18 strength". Your stat scores are tied to the other choices you make, and when things are tied together its the illusion of two choices that is really 1. That's one thing when it's a background but I find that a ridiculous level of micromanagement for a class.
* also for power tools
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pf2 has plenty of crunch and synergies. its just not stacking up numbers with feats that combine in just the right way that rolling becomes an afterthought. you've probably heard it before, but in pf2 optimization happens at the table, not the character sheet.
@wolf
i've seen plenty of characters doing wild stuff i did not expect by people far smarter then me. hell even i was able to make an effective melee summoner based on a spiritualist i played in pf1. if you think you are just 'picking a character' in pf2, i'd say that is just your own limitation. i would believe that its not to the level sf1 is(which is a a far cry from pf1 as well), in fact i would say its the thing i still want the most from the system, but to say its somehow missing from pf2 is just not true.
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I WANT those chrunch synergies. If I didn't, I'd be playing 5th ed.
So... I played 5e, for a little while. Then I found PF2. I'll never go back.
The thing is, 5e doesn't even give you the options to have synergies with. If you're not multiclassing, and youre not a caster, then there's a good chance you get one or two more real build choices after chargen, and that's it. They have feats, and you can take them every once in a long while, but it's generally better to just take the stat buff instead. By comparison, PF2 offers at least one feat to pick every level. There's a huge difference between the two.
"not the intended use" is my favorite part of building characters in role playing games*. Unintended synergies make wonderful and creative opportunities. The vexing dodger was intended for humans to go climbing on giants like kratos. You put it on a foxform kitsune and they can pull that trick with halflings. Starfinders healing channel makes a great kumbaya happy skippy healer... but it also lets you self heal so your engine of wonton destruction can NEVER DIE!!!
I love it when people see my characters in action and say "what the HELL did you make...." I love seeing the weird stuff other players come up with as either a fellow party member or a dm. I love it when weird things the players make interact oddly with the adventure I'm running.
You know, I sympathize with that feeling. I do. It is a thing that 3.x (and 4e) has, and PF2 does not (or at least not nearly as much of). At the same time, "I can't fold this system over itself in clearly unintended ways" is not the same thing as "there's no build flexibility". There's a lot of build flexibility. It's just less prone to shenanigans... and yeah, I do miss the shenanigans (like building an urban barbarian who swapped his rage for some ranger class feature or other so that he could swap that for feats. The character eventually wound up with a threatened reach of something like 30 feet at level 6). At the same time... well, there is stuff in there still to find. It's just thinner. (Dual weapon warrior bomber alchemists, for example.)
It's just lacking in ways to exploit the system in order to create characters that the devs never intended.If every character can be anticipated you are not building a character you are picking one. I want to build characters not pick them.
That's a heck of a take... especially when the space that you want to play in, of finding fascinating exploits, is generally quite a bit more constrained than the space that the devs have made deliberately. I mean, it sounds like your primary complaint here is that they've gotten to be too good at closing loopholes, and you can't show off as much anymore. Which, you know, fair. I mean, I've been there. Still, let's be real about the actual thing that we're saying.
Pathfinder 2 doesn't even let you decide where to put your own stats. You can't even say "Well i'm going to build an alchemist to bash things lets get an 18 strength". Your stat scores are tied to the other choices you make, and when things are tied together its the illusion of two choices that is really 1. That's one thing when it's a background but I find that a ridiculous level of micromanagement for a class.
This isn't really fair. It's true that you can't start with an 18 in anything but what your class lets you start with an 18 in... but there are an enormous number of backgrounds otu there, and you just have to find one that fits one of your desired stat bumps because the other bump is generally free. Ancestries can always go free/free now, and your pick four was always free choice. So you may not be able to put 18 in strength as an alchemist, but you can put a 16 wherever you like.
...and for me? The idea that it's saying "hey, if you want to be an X, then that has implications for how good you are at Y" seems reasonable to me. It does. I don't feel like that's an unreasonable restriction... and you probably wouldn't either if you weren't all-in on playing against type.
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I see a lot of players in pf2 get frustrated with the miss miss miss fail fail. A small change in the math increases the odds for the polyhedrally challenged to spend the night or an important combat missing most of the time.
We did agents of edgewatch as players new to PF2 but with more decades of experience between the players than most of us would want to admit having. After a hard fight with a rust monster, the owlbear can basically walk up to anyone not spending all three actions to run away and crit drop crit drop Pc's twice in a row. Can't really save the townsfolk without a spine.
The early APs for PF2 are known to be way too difficult. The game devs and campaign writers have acknowledged and apologized for that.
A lot of that is due to the change in the meaning of enemy level. The CR rating for PF1 has quite a bit higher numbers than the level rating of PF2 enemies.
For example, the Owlbear in PF1 is a CR4 enemy. It has an AC of 15 - which puts it at the AC of a typical level 1 enemy in PF2.
An Owlbear in PF2 is a level 4 enemy. It has an AC of 21. That puts it about on par with a CR 8 creature in PF1.
It is well known (and cautioned against in the encounter building guidelines in PF2) that level +3 enemies are incredibly lethal to the players. It is only a suitable challenge to have if a) that level +3 enemy is alone, b) the party is fully rested and has all of their resources available, c) the players know that the enemy is incredibly dangerous and can plan accordingly.
Having an AP go, "Surprise, here is a level 4 Owlbear for your level 1 party to battle right after fighting a level 3 rust monster" - yeah, that's bad and not recommended. That leads to TPK more often than not.
level +2 enemies are challenging to fight, but it can be an enjoyable boss-level battle.
level +3 enemies are where the "miss, miss, miss, fail, fail, fail, die, die, die, TPK" scenario kicks in and the battle and the game becomes not fun any more.
There's a ton of character build flexibility out there as far as "I have this character idea in my head, and I want to create it into being and have it still function as a viable PC."
Yeah, that is what I would say too. Character building in PF2 is about 1) building a character that is interesting and fun to play, and 2) having that character concept be viable no matter how strange, unexpected, or seemingly unplayably bad it might seem at first.
You're making my point.
And yes. If your idea of 'build freedom' is that you are able to break the power curve and blow through the power ceiling - then PF2 and SF2 are not games that you are going to like. That is just the unfortunate truth. And you are not alone in that. There are regularly people who come on to the PF2 forums to complain about it even now, several years after PF2's release.
In PF2 you are not allowed to put enough build power options into one or two things to the point that you will always, or even nearly always, succeed at them. The dice gods always have the final say.
The reason for that is that without a solid and unbreakable power ceiling, there is not a viable power floor. Or to say it another way, without a power ceiling, the characters built at the power floor would not be viable.
In PF1, there was not so much of a power ceiling. Broken builds were discovered and published. And the difficulty set point of the adventures changed to match. And then new broken combinations were found. And the set point changed to be higher.
And it got to the point where someone who didn't know about the any of the broken powergaming builds and was just building a character with a neat character concept and a lot of role-play flavor - ended up being so unplayably bad that the game wasn't fun. Especially if they were in the same campaign with other people who were following the latest powergaming build guidelines.
With the power ceiling in PF2, you have the build freedom to create crazy, zany, unexpected characters. And they will be at approximately the same power level as the other characters at the table as far as their combat stats go.
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For the record, I also loved PF1, loved making oddball characters (My aasimar kobold shaman dragon disciple (don't forget shaman are both spontaneous and prepared) was a holy terror and I loved him) but since I'm always the GM I got tired of having to handhold literally everyone I want to play with to the point where I might as well have been playing by myself.
In PF2 I literally went over the basic rules of the game and said "have at it" to someone who literally never played a TTRPG in their lives and they were golden. They got to sit down at the same table as the person who was almost as into PF1 as me, without feeling like a fool.
I will never go back to a system that makes me feel like I can't play it with the people I care about without bribing them to do so.
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Like a microcosm for "how weird, fun builds in PF2 come together" is that in one of the Kineticist threads a poster opined basically "prioritizing the skill option for one of the class features is indefensible". Through a few pages of discussion, we have now landed on a build that takes the skill option *first* and is now in the territory of "how should a GM adjudicate this, it's borderline unreasonable."
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And yes. If your idea of 'build freedom' is that you are able to break the power curve and blow through the power ceiling -
No.
I realize that build freedom allows someone to break the powercurve but generally I'm going for a reasonable level of power with a lot of versatility and some sort of unique mechanic to futz around with. Higher numbers are boring to me, I prefer things so weird they don't have numbers.
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And yes. If your idea of 'build freedom' is that you are able to break the power curve and blow through the power ceiling -No.
I realize that build freedom allows someone to break the powercurve but generally I'm going for a reasonable level of power with a lot of versatility and some sort of unique mechanic to futz around with. Higher numbers are boring to me, I prefer things so weird they don't have numbers.
Well, PF2 does that better than any other system I have seen. Because choosing a wild, crazy idea and picking build options to match that doesn't end up crippling your character's effectiveness in core game mechanics.
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And yes. If your idea of 'build freedom' is that you are able to break the power curve and blow through the power ceiling -No.
I realize that build freedom allows someone to break the powercurve but generally I'm going for a reasonable level of power with a lot of versatility and some sort of unique mechanic to futz around with. Higher numbers are boring to me, I prefer things so weird they don't have numbers.
Looking for a new species called a Nullsum ?
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"I can't fold this system over itself in clearly unintended ways" is not the same thing as "there's no build flexibility".
There is insufficient build flexibility for me to enjoy. You can pick a class so obviously there is some. I've stated half a dozen times that it's insufficient for me, not not existent, and not even inherently bad.
it sounds like your primary complaint here is that they've gotten to be too good at closing loopholes
It's not so much closing the loopholes as not handing people the sewing needle to start with.
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For the most part all "picking a class" gives you in PF2 is "you can't really be bad at the thing this class is about". But nothing is stopping you from something like "building a fighter to be the party healer". You don't really have the power budget to make your fighter both the party healer and the party diplomat, because some of that power budget is eaten up by "you are good at fighting with weapons" but you can absolutely make your fighter the party healer or the party diplomat.
Looking for a new species called a Nullsum ?And yes. If your idea of 'build freedom' is that you are able to break the power curve and blow through the power ceiling -No.
I realize that build freedom allows someone to break the powercurve but generally I'm going for a reasonable level of power with a lot of versatility and some sort of unique mechanic to futz around with. Higher numbers are boring to me, I prefer things so weird they don't have numbers.
Kinda off-topic, but are there any purely digital ancestries in SF? SROs are kinda adjacent to that, but how cool would it be to play an AI or digital ghost? Obviously with some limits such as you possessing a shell so you're not effectively unkillable, but it sounds like a great concept ^^.
"Nullsums were originally created as weaponized AIs to resist the advance of the Veskarium, but when deployed, it became clear that their creators had been a lot better at creating weapons than they had been at making sure said weapons were loyal to them. Instead of fighting the invaders, the Nullsum collectively decided to simply slip their bonds and turned on their would-be masters. To this day, individual freedom is of utmost importance to the Nullsum. Not rarely this leads to conflict with their more corporeal contemporaries when a particular individual decides that someone's drone is really a person. Thankfully for everyone involved, over time they have learned that moderation is often more conducive to their ends.
Nullsums are a purely digital form of life, instead deriving their energy and processing power from an entirely different dimension, which they simply call Home. Exceedingly deadly to any biological life, the dimension remains mostly unstudied by anyone but themselves and they are not sharing. To interact with the Universe however, Nullsums cannot simply vanish into the data streams. Their makeup is simply too alien to modern systems to do so, so instead Nullsums need to "possess" inanimate objects similar to ghosts. While doing so, damage to the object will also damage them, which makes it a dangerous proposition; However, most decide that that danger is an acceptable risk in exchange for being more than observers on this plane. While the truly old members of this ancestry can go so far as to control entire capital ships on their own, most prefer constructed shells closer to other ancestries."
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Lots of flags in here. Do not let things get contentious. As a reminder, we do not user the terms 'crunch and fluff' to refer to rules and lore on the forums. Rules and lore are the preferred terms. I will be enforcing that, and it will appear in the next update to the Community Guidelines.
Well, PF2 does that better than any other system I have seen. Because choosing a wild, crazy idea and picking build options to match that doesn't end up crippling your character's effectiveness in core game mechanics.
I do not consider the sole, or even primary, guide of how much build freedom you have the guardrails keeping you from messing up. Quite the opposite. If you know enough to push the envelope you should know you have to do so without messing up your core functionality and guardrails are just an impediment to that. Yes. freedom comes with risks. Yes, some of that can be detrimental to your game. A well designed game gets you a lot of freedom per problematic element, but even the best designed game is going to have some degree of trade off.
You can argue that PF2 is a good game, or a better game than PF1, but trying to say there's more build freedom and ability to get crazy characters is a bit of a doozy. I prefer a minivan to a corvette. I don't try to argue that the minivan is faster. Something you like better or think is better (in composite) doesn't automatically mean the parts are better.
What are the craziest pf2 builds you've seen? Kineticist good at skills really doesn't compare to some of the stuff you can do with even a core PF1 druid.
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I think the disparate notions of "build freedom" is how naturally PF2 takes to "smashing 2 unrelated things together in a way that is effective", like "Monk with the Bard dedication" or "Oracle with the Gunslinger dedication" or "Armor Inventor with the Wrestler dedication" or just any time you need the Barbarian to be the party face or healer.
What it resists allowing is "allow you to stick pieces together to be incredible at something."
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What are the craziest pf2 builds you've seen? Kineticist good at skills really doesn't compare to some of the stuff you can do with even a core PF1 druid.
Some background information: The earliest Adventure Paths that were written while PF2 was still being developed and were published along with the release of the core rules are considered overtuned - they are a bit more difficult than intended. Age of Ashes is one of them. Also, the current version of Witch is considered one of the bottom tier classes available. We are hoping for better from the PF2 Remaster.
I am currently playing an Android (warrior heritage) Fervor Witch through Age of Ashes. Fervor Witch is a Divine tradition caster like a Cleric. Warrior heritage gives Trained proficiency in martial weapons (but it doesn't increase that proficiency at higher levels).
So from the Fervor Witch core, I can run around healing and buffing allies. And from Warrior Android heritage I am running around with a longbow for extreme range combat, or a whip at short range combat. I upgraded my Athletics proficiency to Expert and have had pretty good success (even with a Strength bonus of +1) at tripping enemies for my third action after casting a spell for two actions, or moving and sustaining a spell for two single actions.
It is a build that PF2 powergamers scoff and deride rather badly. I'm having a blast with it. It hasn't felt any better or worse than the other characters that I have been playing with. I don't feel like I am hindering the team and have to be carried. In fact, being one of the party's main in-combat healers, I often have to keep the rest of the party from taking dirt naps - while still being able to knock down enemies.
I came up with the character concept by starting with the Android heritage (that had recently been released for PF2 at the time) and seeing how many contradictory concepts I could pack together into a level 1 character. So it is a Warrior Android Toymaker Fervor Witch.
I am currently playing an Android (warrior heritage) Fervor Witch through Age of Ashes.
By PF one standards that's a switch hitting warpriest. You have miles to go before you even see the edges of bizarotown. PF 1 let you build the songbird of doom, you could be a bird, fly at peoples heads and blow their skulls off with dex to damage. The damage itself wasn't obscene, but the mobility versatility AC and such were pretty high. I had a foxform fighter variant that climbed on peoples heads like they were kratos and piled on Debuffs.
Even a core druid can fight, grapple, trip, reposition, cast, heal, earthglide, fly, swim, airwalk, scout as an innocuous critter, and turn into a giant air elemental and bounce half a town out of the way of the fight. The brown furred transmuter arcanist can turn people into pouncing pony people of destruction.
Starfinder is definitely toned down from that in some respects, mostly in terms of obscene math, but still my last starfinder game had an insect colony that was their own licensed corporation, absolutely not general grievous, and a faux evolutionist dragonkin mystic out to become the dragoniest dragon to ever dragon.
When you tell me the pathfinder 2 engine can handle the bizare I'm looking for, that it can do it BETTER than PF 1 or starfinder, but then show me your definition of the weird stuff... No. A mathematicians solution arrived at by changing the definition is not evidence that there's something I don't understand.
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I mean, it looks like your complaint is that PF2 decided that spells and class features should not be able to replace skills, so a druid who wants to grapple, trip, swim, and climb needs to invest in athletics, and some people might be better at this than the druid is (since they have more Str and every +1 matters.)
I think that's largely orthogonal to "builds lack flexibility" since absolutely you can build a druid who is good at those things, but you have to get good at those things the same way that anybody else does.
Think of it like how the potential space of "fun combinations of choices" in PF2 is very large (things like a monk-bard or an oracle-gunslinger are *horrible* choices in PF1), but the total span of "all the things a specific character can do" is smaller than the comparable metric for certain PF1 builds.
I think the thing you're missing is that there were a lot of PF1 builds that really were not very capable outside a very specific set of things. Fighters and Clerics regularly got 2 skill ranks per level. If you decided "I want to be a fighter/wizard" and your first 10 levels were 10 5 fighter levels and 5 wizard levels, you ended up with a character that wasn't good at fighting *or* magic. Sure, there was the Eldritch Knight but then we're getting deep in the weeds of systems mastery.
PF2 is the game where you can choose to be a fighter, and spend every single class feat you get after 1st level on the Wizard multiclass archetype and you will have a useful amount of combat prowess and magical ability. PF2 is set up to enable everybody to be competent at anything they decided they want their character to be good at, within the budgeting limitations of "you're not actually supposed to be able to have a character who is good at everything."
I think that's largely orthogonal to "builds lack flexibility" since absolutely you can build a druid who is good at those things, but you have to get good at those things the same way that anybody else does.
Wasn't that the motto for 4e ?
Doing it better was an unintended side effect, but what I really like is that the druid could do it differently. The druid might not have the sheer + of the raging barbarian, but being able to grapple constrict or earth glide to the guy in the force field or turn into a whirlwind and dump the swarm into the volcano more than made up for that for my prefered style of gaming.
I mean, it looks like your complaint is that PF2 decided that spells and class features should not be able to replace skills
My main complaints are
1) the PF2 engine does not handle the wonderfully bizarre very well and starfinder runs on the wonderfully bizarre.
When I asked for an example for evidence to the contrary, I was shown a versatile , but by PF1 or SF1 standards, a perfectly ordinary character. If that's an out there build by PF2 standards I've been underselling my doom and gloom.
2) The system has less build freedom than I'd like. Anyone can read what I mean by this in context, restated, and clarified multiple times.
The solution then is to twist the words that I said, into something I did not say, and clearly did not mean by replacing them with something that the words do not themselves mean either. The alternative, apparently too hard to contemplate, is that PF2 is not in all ways at all times better at everything than PF1.
PF 1 might have an absurd number of builds that won't work but it gives you a LOT of building blocks so you can find ones that do. That number is a LOT higher and the builds are far more different from each other than anything I see in PF2.
Freedom just means you can try it. It does NOT guarantee success. It's one thing to say that a system that doesn't even let you assign your stats is BETTER than another system, but touting it as more free is sheer torture of the english language.
The eldritch knight was ok. But for real magicmartial thats why they made the magus. Because there was a niche that the rules weren't able to fill with the parts you had they made a new part.
Can you talk me through a "wonderfully weird" Starfinder build?
Like an insect colony with a sapient hive mind is just an ancestry. They can print that just like they printed the Poppet, Conrasu, Leshy, or Skeleton Ancestries. Someone who wants to be the dragoniest dragon ever is like 8 different Kobold PCs I could build. Neither of those things strike me as remotely weird.
Like I'm in a game right now where one of the PCs is a dhampir poppet with the time traveler background so they're a toy from the future someone wished alive, but that's just ancestry and background and has almost no bearing on what the character can do. There is a (3rd party) ancestry for PF2 where your character can be a Dungeon, and this is totally functional. "Your character is a dungeon" is very silly, but the Battlezoo Mimic ancestry is very cool and I'm excited for the Intelligent Weapon one (particularly by the prospect of playing the Reflection of an Intelligent Weapon.)
Can you talk me through a "wonderfully weird" Starfinder build?
Well the difference between the dragonkin and the kobold is that the dragonkin is succeeding at the whole being a dragon thing. . The kobold doing the same thing was considered but would have a different flavor. More like a killer rabbit character. I have a muscle operative in that role already. (High strength melee operative) And.. well. She didn't pick up the nick name murdermouse because she's solving crimes in new england.
Beady Dragonkin Xenodruid mystic (Dragonblooded)
When I first heard of the shifter..erm. evolutionist there was supposed to be a dragon path. So I wanted to make a dragonkin becoming even more dragony. The class... did not have that option. The class... well I decided to cobble the class out of the mystic. For comparison purposes his int is 2 higher from a society thing, but then again in regular play he wouldn't wind up as the party engineer half the time...
Looks like a dragon. check.
Dragonblooded theme for more dragon. check. In starfinder that +1 charisma bonus being mostly wasted? Doesn't matter. I don't need my theme to match my stats at all. There's a feat I MIGHT look into getting with it. maybe. probably not.
Dragons are big. Beady is large. he hopes one day he'll get bigger but he wants to explore the galaxy while he's still small enough to fit in the ship.
His size actually matters. His overly large keister takes up space on the battlefield, people can hide behind him.
Dragons breathe fire. Check. I would LIKE to get him the draconic throat gland but the slots occupied.
beady has REACH and like everything in starfinder can Make AOOs. This happens VERY frequently. Fighting a dragon is supposed to get you wrecked. This is the main differrence between fighting something bigger than you and something your size.
Beady has natural weapons. Big sharp pointy teeth.
Like a dragon beady flies. After extensive training and many hillarious crashes through the floor o the starfinder gymnasium he can hover (5 ranks in athletics)
As a wrecking fist mystic, beady has improved unarmed strike. This means his bite hurts more. He can also tailwhack people. Beady can burn spells to make his natural attacks really.. really hurt at 2d6 per spell level sacrificed.
Dragons are tough: With the secondary healing connection and medic archetype, Beady can spend a resolve point to regenerate 4d8 HP that will spill over to stamina. Is healing his friends with that very dragony? Well maybe he's just one of those green forest protector type dragons. (He's from the future no wonder he beat paizo to it...) I mean a themes good and all but i'm not gonna NOT heal the party for it.
Speed: beady walks on all fours (no mechanical effect) but is faster from his level of blitz soldier.
feats:
Weapon focus basic. good at biting
Mystic strikes: Dragons can bite through things with DR magic now so can he.
Toughness. Dragons are a bucket of HP.
Magic: like other dragons Beady is a proficient with magic. Some of those spells make him more dragony or are "draconic powers" rather than spells. He thinks.
Climate adaptaion/Life bubble: I'm a dragon i stand around in my scales most of the time
Fog cloud. Breathes out a lot of smoke. Fire to come later.
Extra sense: Gives himself scent or blindsense vibration for most of the day. because smaug should have roasted that little thief when he had the chance.
Fluid morphism: Beady is getting better at that dragon shapeshifting thing , but will alter himself or his party members bodies to be more dragony and thus better at what they're trying to do.
Force blast: beady shouts VERY LOUDLY fus roar dah! and things go flying.
Gear: Light armor for now. Showing more scale is more important than more defense. Adamantine , to represent really tough dragon hide. Thermal capacitor for ER 5 vs fire and cold. Am I entirely happy that's technically on the armor? No. But in 100 games I've seen that matter once. Unlike pathfinder you sleep in those longjohns. Thruster heels (its embarasing but he can release fire out of the OTHER end if he REALLY needs to get somewhere fast) Skittermander Hyper heart to crocodile charge once per day. (he really does have the heart of a skittermander shh don't tell him he'll deny it)
One sack of gold for sleeping on (its otherwise a useless yellow metal)
maze mind graft: more survival (the only skill operatives aren't guaranteed to dominate) and dragons are good at twisty lairs.
pituitary gland: beady can shrink down to medium for a few minutes. His medium form is adorable.
Wildwise: I picked xenodruid for the 6th level thing, but swapped out the level 1 thing for the wrecking fists. Its occupying the throat slot where i'd LIKE to put a dragongland for even more fire...
Follower: Beady has a Diplomat follower. This is a kitsune in a princess getup who's usually busy texting on her black berry. (What? The blackberries like. Ancient. Totally period appropriate) Her Resume says she's worked in golarion world.
Fighting: Beady can deliver vicious bites, burning spells if he has a flank or needs to hit harder. When hit he can burn resolve as a move action to healing channel himself. With even a little bit of relevant DR/ER his healing channels get effectively multiplied in how much effective HP they give. So he can take a licking and keep on.. licking back.
Personality: As merely a 15 foot long dragon Beady fully expects another growth spurt any day now. He's only 300.. and something? Look either the gap or the egg make things kinda weird and how much do you remember from when YOU hatched? He's a bit of a clutz and a goof, and doesn't like picking on people smaller than him. (Like.. squads of vesk mercenaries) He'll TRY to only knock them out a little and get them back up and moving as soon as he can.
Soon. he needs polymorph II to cast on himself.
Now, for a kobold I think you could eventually get PARTS to be
Large creature (where the difference matters)
Flies
Breathes fire
has a ferocious bite (tailslap is a nice bonus)
Blindsense /Sight
Fire resistance
Bucket of HP/Supernaturally tough
Dr
Fire/cold/elemental resistant.
(Princes/princesses equally available)
Beady has that at level 5/almost 6. I'm sure a high level sorcerer can do something similar, but it would probably take a while to get there. pathfinder 2 rules for polymorph seemed.. harsh.
Like an insect colony with a sapient hive mind is just an ancestry. They can print that just like they printed the Poppet, Conrasu, Leshy, or Skeleton Ancestries.
They were a nanocyte so they're a swarm that.. has more swarm.
In starfinder it matters. the hive can break up and go through air vents and things. It also has 4 arms. Pathfinder2 characters take a while to have those abilities and make them really DO anything. I don't know what they had to synergize the two since i don't know that class very well.
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The fact that you think Toughness is a worthwhile feat makes me understand why you fail to see why the imbalance and Ivory Tower design of PF1 and to a lesser degree SF1 are a problem.
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The fact that you think Toughness is a worthwhile feat makes me understand why you fail to see why the imbalance and Ivory Tower design of PF1 and to a lesser degree SF1 are a problem.
What's wrong with Toughness? I don't have enough practice balancing Ivory Towers to get your point. Are you saying Toughness is too OP? or truly worthless? My Shobhad professional wrestler evolutionist took Toughness too.
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The benefit is way too insignificant in practice. Granted, SF1 is a bit less of a rocket tag win the fight on round one game than PF1 is, but it's still very much a game where offense > defense. Outside of niche super defensive builds (and this isn't one), it's always better to invest in killing things faster than winning fights by attrition.
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Toughness takes on more importance in the BNW world where frontline fighters don't wear armor and the meta is based around the assumption that you are going to get hit on anything short of a natural 1
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Can you talk me through a "wonderfully weird" Starfinder build?Beady Dragonkin Xenodruid mystic (Dragonblooded)
Yeah, that looks like an Iruxi Draconic Sorcerer.
If you are actually playing that in PF2 you won't have large size or flying from your ancestry at level 1. But it has already been mentioned that such things are still potentially on the table for SF2.
But none of the rest of that seems at all out of the ordinary for PF2. You can get Claws and Tail attack from Iruxi.
If you are actually playing that in PF2 you won't have large size or flying from your ancestry at level 1. But it has already been mentioned that such things are still potentially on the table for SF2.
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At what level does your build get
Large size
AOO
Fire breathing
Flight
Blindsense
Fire resistance
Damage reduction
A bathtub or bucket of HP ?
The characters rapid response mode is to activate the thruster heels, breathe fire out the back end, Turn on the skitterheart and then make 2 fly actions at 60 feet a pop and have a standard action heal. (if you don't like how the ambulance flies get off the sidewalk)
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At what level does your build get
If you are actually playing that in PF2 you won't have large size or flying from your ancestry at level 1. But it has already been mentioned that such things are still potentially on the table for SF2.
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Are you asking about SF2? Or PF2? Because like I mentioned, some of these may change.
Large size: Permanent large size isn't a thing in PF2. Temporary large size a Draconic Sorcerer can cast Enlarge at level 3.
AOO: Having Attack of Opportunity is rather rare. Fighter gets it for free at level 1. Some other classes can pay class feats for it. A Draconic Sorcerer can get it from Fighter Archetype at level 4 with Fighter Dedication as their level 2 class feat and Opportunist as their level 4 class feat.
Fire breathing: Advanced Bloodline gives Dragon Breath as a focus spell - so up to twice per combat all day.
Flight: Greater Bloodline at level 10 for Dragon Wings. One focus point per battle to get flying for a minute - which is about twice as long as you will generally need it for to last through the battle.
Also at level 11 you will get Dragon Form which gives 100 foot per action fly speed, breath weapon, and standard (non-Fighter) martial level attack bonus, damage, and AC values (though not much more in HP). It does prevent you from casting spells until you drop the form though.
Blindsense: I don't see much blindsense for anyone in PF2. SF2 may have it available easier. In PF2 it is not uncommon to get things like scent. There may also be spells that will give senses.
Fire resistance: Plenty of equipment that gives this. Or Resist Energy.
Damage reduction: Permanent damage reduction is not typical. Other than shield block. Mostly you get Resist All from allied Champion or Amulet Thaumaturge characters.
A bathtub or bucket of HP: Sorcerer gets 6+CON HP per level. Iruxi adds 8. Fighter Resiliency can add more, but this build is running a bit low on low level class feats unless playing with Free Archetype (which is why Free Archetype is so popular). There is also still the Toughness general feat that you can get at level 3. Spellcasting classes have a bit less HP than martial classes, but it isn't by so much that it feels like they are made of paper. They also have perfectly reasonable AC and save values, so they don't get hit more often than any one else on the team.
So it looks like other than flight, your build is coming fully online at level 6.
The hardest part would be getting the STR and DEX both at +2 at level 1 in order to qualify for Fighter Dedication at level 2. Though that requirement may be changing in the Remaster. And that can be avoided if you are willing to not have Attack of Opportunity like 85% of all PF2 characters.
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It seems like if you're after "getting a bunch of really definining abilities ASAP" what you're after is less "freedom and flexibility" and more "outpacing the power curve" which aren't really synonymous to my mind.
Like PF2 is very careful about "when you get flight" because "A PC can fly as much as they want" trivializes a lot of lower level challenges in a game where "melee combat" is the default assumption. But that a character has to wait longer for something like "unlimited flight" doesn't really restrict one's creative vision, just their tactical options.
Starfinder is absolutely going to be less careful about things like Reach and Flight, because people have laser rifles. But also for PF2 the fact that everybody can make a full move then make multiple attacks at level 1 is a huge difference from PF1. We used to jump through hoops for pounce!
But a lot of what PF2 does on purpose to limit shenanigans like spells replacing skills or "I can just fly over it" is to make the game easier to GM. Since the GM doesn't have to do major alterations to whatever material they're working off because a player brought one PC instead of a different one. This is honestly one of the strengths of the systems. For a game as mechanically deep as PF2 to genuinely be easy to run is a huge coup. The long-term health of the game depends more on "people are willing to run it" than "people are willing to play it" after all.
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Large size: Permanent large size isn't a thing in PF2. Temporary large size a Draconic Sorcerer can cast Enlarge at level 3.At what level does your build get
If you are actually playing that in PF2 you won't have large size or flying from your ancestry at level 1. But it has already been mentioned that such things are still potentially on the table for SF2.
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there actually are a couple options to get large size permanently, and not to mention we have 2 up coming ancestries that are large starting at level 1(with an option to be medium). its very possible this will be more common in SF2 as well, once more ancestries get released.
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Toughness takes on more importance in the BNW world where frontline fighters don't wear armor and the meta is based around the assumption that you are going to get hit on anything short of a natural 1
In the current combat, I'm in (in a play by post game) my mystic healer, who is the lowest level of everyone in the party by 2 or 3 levels, with very low EAC/KEC playing at high tier, has been keeping 3 zombies from reaching the rest of the party. I even dropped a grenade in my own square to avoid 3 AOOs 2 of which are flanking me. Our second healer has been able to keep me standing up to keep taking damage like a pinata, Doing so has kept 4 of the other 5 party members out of melee range. So I think BNW's meta is working just fine.
Besides it's fun while flanked by 3 zombies and trapped against a wall, to get to yell "What are you waiting for? I got them all flanked!"
This has been one of the funniest combats I've been in.
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It seems like if you're after "getting a bunch of really definining abilities ASAP" what you're after is less "freedom and flexibility" and more "outpacing the power curve" which aren't really synonymous to my mind.
Your accusation of power gaming has the cart before the horse. I don't want the versatility for the power, the power is required for the versatility.
You need the defining abilities to be there
You need them to mechanically do something or they're irrelevant, they become tell instead of show. Don't tell me the skittermander has six arms, Show me when they're holding a shield, aoo someone with a spear, shoot an ally with a caustoject healing serum shoot the bad guy with a laser pistol and still offer their depressed friend a cookie.
And yes get them early. 1) you don't always get to high level play. 2) Even if you do, you don't spend your entire time there. At the far end, look at a capstone ability. Even if you get it, you get to play with it for 4 or 5 sessions tops? Compared to something you got at level 1 which you use every single day in the campaign.
If that breaks pf2's power curve... well yeah thats kinda the point. PF2s power curve is so low and tight that it can't handle the stress. Beady's not busting starfinders power curve, but a highly mobile regeneration tank sponge with a giant "eat me" sign is different than a typical heavily armored battle turtle. he wouldn't even be a blip on pf1s curve/mountain/space elevator.
Starfinder found something between "oh here skittermander rogue have 6 attacks" and PF2's "this will technically be there now and will do something in 4 levels with a feat and actually do something 4 levels after that with a third feat". I think starfinder's at a sweet spot between the two
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PF2s power curve is so low and tight that it can't handle the stress.
Several of us have explained why PF2 was designed that way and why it makes for a very flexible and fun game to play. Saying that you don't like it doesn't change that. No game system is right for everyone. I can barely tolerate playing PF1. I liked SF1 well enough, but not enough to put more time into it after PF2 came out.
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I mean, it's true that my PF2 characters are less defined by a specific combination of choices that allow me to do the specific neat trick I decided I wanted my character to do than my PF1 characters were. But the long and short of it is if you can't get unlimited, all day flight at a sufficiently low level for it to "define your character" then you don't define your character with unlimited, all-day flight in mind. In fact, a surprisingly workable way to build a PF2 character is "have absolutely no plan for what choices you will take at any future level before you are actually given those choices."
You instead figure out who your character is by the things they can do and any other actual facts about them. It's possible, and indeed not unlikely, that a player might feel that the options given to you at low levels are not enough options. But the game is trying to balance that against the other notion that "building a PF2 character is too complex" so they won't make you choose 9 feats in the first two levels.
But the neat thing is? The system itself is flexible and transparent enough where a GM can choose to just "give out extra feats" and it won't affect the game in unexpected ways or break it at all. For the most part even if you played with "double feats" you would mostly increase "how many different options a character has" rather than "how powerful any of those options really are." This is, I think, a large part of why "Free Archetype" is so popular. It allows for significant flexibility in character builds but is not so complex that it makes characters difficult to put together.
Thing Mark Seifter said over and over again during the PF2 Playtest was something like "complexity is the currency through which we buy depth" and the very good thing about PF2 is that they didn't take very many bad deals here.
So it looks like other than flight, your build is coming fully online at level 6.
The flight, the reach, the size, the fire resistance and most importantly the ability to gish. pathfinder 2s (understandably) shortened duration buffs mean you're buffing in combat or you don't have the buffs. A problem I see with a lot of theorycrafting on self buffers is you need to balance the buffing time with the oportunity cost of whacking things. PF1 magi and warpriests work very well because they change the action economy behind that.