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It's been confirmed by Luis Loza that Arazni is NOT taking the areas of concern of whichever god dies or "replacing" them, she's just taking the empty slot as a core deity.
On the Pharasma thing specifically, is also stated that whilst the nosoi on the cover was writing the book as a report to Pharasma, they've also been at this for a LONG time (unstated exactly how long, but at the very least it's been confirmed Aroden died whilst it was being written), so doesn't really act as a piece of evidence for or against Pharasma dying (as whilst Arazni and Yivali both being on the cover might suggest a link, could also just be "book author and the new core deity together")
I don't think you can have Arazni take the place of a "Holy" figure (formerly "Good God") without changing too much about what makes her interesting.
It would make sense to slot her in among the "middle ground" of the unholy set, as there's an compelling case for people to follow her that is she advocates for people to survive at all costs, to maintain whatever dignity they can, and to hurt the people who hurt them. That's more reasonable than even Norgorber if you were to ignore the "murder clowns" part of his whole deal.
That also sort of points in the direction of Urgathoa biting it, since her "in" is "hedonism", which is a lot less relevant to the sorts of stories Pathfinder likes to tell than "Hurt people HURT PEOPLE" is.
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I worry that Urgathoa beefing it leaves Team Bad Guy a little empty in the Core 20. Asmodeus, Lamashtu, Norgorber, Zon-Kuthon, and an imprisoned Rovagug is kind of a thin rogue's gallery.
Losing a more 'heroic' deity feels more interesting.
I'm thinking still Sarenrae or since it's Arazni I could see it being Zon-Kuthon with Arazni being part of how he dies
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A few interesting pieces of the puzzle from
today’s stream: Lost Omens: Divine Mysteries is a 2024 book with a psychopomp narrator, aimed at bringing Gods & Magic into the Remaster and expanding on it. The cover shows a suspiciously alive-looking Arazni (stated to be joining the Core 20!) standing in front of stained glass depictions of Asmodeus (right), Pharasma (center), and Sarenrae battling Rovagug (left).Whoever dies, Arazni’s filling in their slot - and maybe getting to be less corpse-y. Pharasma giving her the Boneyard job? Urgathoa kicking the bucket as a middle finger to necromancers everywhere? Gozreh gifting a big burst of vitality as they beef it? I truly have no idea.
ugh, i hate Arazni...
I worry that Urgathoa beefing it leaves Team Bad Guy a little empty in the Core 20. Asmodeus, Lamashtu, Norgorber, Zon-Kuthon, and an imprisoned Rovagug is kind of a thin rogue's gallery.
Losing a more 'heroic' deity feels more interesting.
I've seen the argument based on alignment - Paizo were careful to have multiple options for every alignment to give people choice, and removing Sarenrae or Asmodeus from the Core 20 would leave Lawful Good and Lawful Evil each down one unless Arazni changes her own alignment fairly radically, which seems unlikely. Even if Pairo are removing alignment as a mechanic, they're not removing it as a philosophical concept.
But guess who's always been fairly neutral, and who Arazni replacing with a more minor shift, even if she doesn't fill the same niche, would still let people worship someone who embraces the moral grey in a different way... :P
I kind of feel with the announcement of Arazni as being promoted, Urgathoa and Pharasma make the most sense.
While Arazni might not be precisely taking the place of whatever deity gets offed, She could fill the thematic hole of those two. Killing most of the other gods would IMHO leave major thematic holes in possible character concepts among the core 20, and while there are minor gods that could "take over" those roles from the player side, it's probably not a great idea for the game to force new players to turn to those.
The biggest issue I see with Urgathoa however is that her demise feels like a "end of arc" event, rather than something that precipitates the story. And I just get a general sense that whichever god is going to buy the farm will do so early in the story.
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I worry that Urgathoa beefing it leaves Team Bad Guy a little empty in the Core 20. Asmodeus, Lamashtu, Norgorber, Zon-Kuthon, and an imprisoned Rovagug is kind of a thin rogue's gallery.
I don't think you need to really have *any* bad guys in the "Core 20" though. Since we're no longer doing the "cover every alignment" thing and there's absolutely no shortage of potential world ending threats among unholy deities who aren't in the "Core 20".
Like a key part of the "core 20" to me is that this is a deity who a reasonable person (or a PC) might follow, so Rovagug really doesn't need to be there.
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If anyone was going to replace Urgathoa as god of undeath, I think it would make far more sense for it to be Geb or Tar-Baphon than Arazni, who didn't ask for or want it and doesn't enjoy it. Geb and TB both represent aspects of undeath - Geb stumbled into it accidentally through despair, while Tar-Baphon embraced it to further his ambition - but Arazni doesn't seem to have a strong stance on it except to sympathise the people it has been inflicted on. And while Geb pays lip service while hiding his contempt, it would be especially delicious, narratively, if Tar-Baphon cut the unbeating heart out of his supposed patron and took back his own phylactery to merge the two, achieving godhood that way. Or something like that.
I'll also second that I think Nocticula would also be a really interesting goddess to elevate to the Core 20, and I think she could probably replace Shelyn fairly seemlessly since they both have artistic portfolios, and Shelyn really seems to only have her relationship with Zon-Kuthon to really set her apart. I keep mixing her up with Desna or Calistria, who are more evocative.
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I worry that Urgathoa beefing it leaves Team Bad Guy a little empty in the Core 20. Asmodeus, Lamashtu, Norgorber, Zon-Kuthon, and an imprisoned Rovagug is kind of a thin rogue's gallery.I don't think you need to really have *any* bad guys in the "Core 20" though. Since we're no longer doing the "cover every alignment" thing and there's absolutely no shortage of potential world ending threats among unholy deities who aren't in the "Core 20".
Like a key part of the "core 20" to me is that this is a deity who a reasonable person (or a PC) might follow, so Rovagug really doesn't need to be there.
Like ** spoiler omitted ** was a more credible threat as a divine thing than most of the actual evil deities in PF1. Tar-Baphon walked all the way up to the doorstep of Absalom and Urgathoa sat on the sidelines. After all, what can make an outsider threatening is less "how incredibly evil it is" and more "how obscurity means most people are unaware of the danger they're in and are doing very little to stop it."
Core 20 are the most well known deities in the Inner Sea. That's it.
I wonder what event will push Arazni in this list.
Her allowing both Holy and Unholy is pretty odd. I wonder which other deities will go this way. I guess Gorum will do it too.
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I worry that Urgathoa beefing it leaves Team Bad Guy a little empty in the Core 20. Asmodeus, Lamashtu, Norgorber, Zon-Kuthon, and an imprisoned Rovagug is kind of a thin rogue's gallery.I don't think you need to really have *any* bad guys in the "Core 20" though. Since we're no longer doing the "cover every alignment" thing and there's absolutely no shortage of potential world ending threats among unholy deities who aren't in the "Core 20".
Like a key part of the "core 20" to me is that this is a deity who a reasonable person (or a PC) might follow, so Rovagug really doesn't need to be there.
Like ** spoiler omitted ** was a more credible threat as a divine thing than most of the actual evil deities in PF1. Tar-Baphon walked all the way up to the doorstep of Absalom and Urgathoa sat on the sidelines. After all, what can make an outsider threatening is less "how incredibly evil it is" and more "how obscurity means most people are unaware of the danger they're in and are doing very little to stop it."
Core 20 are the most well known deities in the Inner Sea. That's it.
I wonder what event will push Arazni in this list.
Her allowing both Holy and Unholy is pretty odd. I wonder which other deities will go this way. I guess Gorum will do it too.
"Holy? Unholy? Don't care. Fight!"
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Nethys has also been stated to allow Holy and Unholy.
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I kind of feel with the announcement of Arazni as being promoted, Urgathoa and Pharasma make the most sense.
While Arazni might not be precisely taking the place of whatever deity gets offed, She could fill the thematic hole of those two. Killing most of the other gods would IMHO leave major thematic holes in possible character concepts among the core 20, and while there are minor gods that could "take over" those roles from the player side, it's probably not a great idea for the game to force new players to turn to those.
The biggest issue I see with Urgathoa however is that her demise feels like a "end of arc" event, rather than something that precipitates the story. And I just get a general sense that whichever god is going to buy the farm will do so early in the story.
i think the intent was that she's not assuming the space of the vacated deity.
in which case... there's no direct link to either Pharasma OR Urgathoa, both of whom are pretty well established in the canon... and you can't get rid of Brides of Urgathoa, who are an iconic Pathfinder monster.
As such, I'm once again betting on Gozreh, who isn't in the Starfinder canon and can easily be supplanted by the Elemental Lords.
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Honestly, a cover like the one described with the stained glass windows sounds like something honoring events from before. They said at least 1 god kicking it, why not 3 with Asmodeus, Pharasma, and Saranrae all kicking it and us getting 3 new core 20. I feel like a huge shakeup like this is far more likly and a .ore interesting set up. Also allows Noctula to move up and maybe an actual physcopomp ushers like Atropos, who it's been stated Pharamsa has set up to be her replacement, moving to fill the void.
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Honestly, a cover like the one described with the stained glass windows sounds like something honoring events from before. They said at least 1 god kicking it, why not 3 with Asmodeus, Pharasma, and Saranrae all kicking it and us getting 3 new core 20. I feel like a huge shakeup like this is far more likly and a .ore interesting set up. Also allows Noctula to move up and maybe an actual physcopomp ushers like Atropos, who it's been stated Pharamsa has set up to be her replacement, moving to fill the void.
Sarenrae is an interesting choice to kick the bucket. Iomedae is pretty similar already.
I like Asmodeus going away b/c the intrigues of the Archdevils is so fascinating, but I just can't see it... although if that were the future, you could have some amazing APs set in places like Cheliax and Isger, or maybe an Evil AP where the PCs are Hellknights.
Pharasma seems too spot on for Pathfinder to go away. And a psychopomp successor doesn't seem to add too much flavor. Sorta like in Forgotten Realms when Mystra died, then Midnight became the goddess of magic, changed her name to Mystra, and everything was the same.
But, and I dunno if you intended this... but Asmodeus/Pharasma/Sarenrae are probably three of the four gods most associated with the Ravening Beast Rovagug (Zon Kuthon being the fourth). Interesting thought...
I kind of feel with the announcement of Arazni as being promoted, Urgathoa and Pharasma make the most sense.
While Arazni might not be precisely taking the place of whatever deity gets offed, She could fill the thematic hole of those two. Killing most of the other gods would IMHO leave major thematic holes in possible character concepts among the core 20, and while there are minor gods that could "take over" those roles from the player side, it's probably not a great idea for the game to force new players to turn to those.
The biggest issue I see with Urgathoa however is that her demise feels like a "end of arc" event, rather than something that precipitates the story. And I just get a general sense that whichever god is going to buy the farm will do so early in the story.
i think the intent was that she's not assuming the space of the vacated deity.
in which case... there's no direct link to either Pharasma OR Urgathoa, both of whom are pretty well established in the canon... and you can't get rid of Brides of Urgathoa, who are an iconic Pathfinder monster.
As such, I'm once again betting on Gozreh, who isn't in the Starfinder canon and can easily be supplanted by the Elemental Lords.
And I would argue against Gozreh for two main reasons: If they kick the bucket, you lose the nature-themed deity of the Core-20, and I don't think such a basic concept should force new players to deep dive into the lore to find a god that fits there concept. The other reason would be that...would anyone really care? Gozreh isn't a bad deity exactly, but seems sort of personality-less.
I guess I could also see Iomedae going, since there is a bit of overlap with Sarenrae there, and I could see some the players who might turn to the latter being cool with Arazni as a patron
And I would argue against Gozreh for two main reasons: If they kick the bucket, you lose the nature-themed deity of the Core-20, and I don't think such a basic concept should force new players to deep dive into the lore to find a god that fits there concept.
Playing devil's advocate, is losing a god of nature really that big a loss when you have druids who get along quite happily without gods at all? If you want to worship nature and protect the natural world, you don't really need Gozreh to do it. You just don't get to be a cleric, but a druid isn't all that different theologically.
The other reason would be that...would anyone really care? Gozreh isn't a bad deity exactly, but seems sort of personality-less.
This I agree with. If you're going for dramatic punch, Gozreh is a little too mid-tier to really bother with. It's got to be a major player, or else why bother?
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And I would argue against Gozreh for two main reasons: If they kick the bucket, you lose the nature-themed deity of the Core-20, and I don't think such a basic concept should force new players to deep dive into the lore to find a god that fits there concept.Playing devil's advocate, is losing a god of nature really that big a loss when you have druids who get along quite happily without gods at all? If you want to worship nature and protect the natural world, you don't really need Gozreh to do it. You just don't get to be a cleric, but a druid isn't all that different theologically.
The other reason would be that...would anyone really care? Gozreh isn't a bad deity exactly, but seems sort of personality-less.This I agree with. If you're going for dramatic punch, Gozreh is a little too mid-tier to really bother with. It's got to be a major player, or else why bother?
with the change in magic - primal/divine - you don't need Gozreh at all.
Gozreh is boring compared to the elemental lords, and if you want to be a holy man who worships nature, well... that's a druid.
But yeah, b/c Gozreh is boring maybe not the best choice to shake things up if we are knocking off a Core 20... but it would be better of an alignment w/ 2E's magic system.
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I still feel like Sarenrae and Iomedae are pretty safe considering the Iconics that focus on them. The only real way I can see one of them being killed is if we do get a replacement that is taken up their mantle. Or we suddenly get a new iconic cleric and champion, which uh also seems unlikely. Maybe if Player Core 2 was coming after War of The Immortals, but its coming out first.
But then again this is all based off of assumptions that could be way off. Maybe they don't factor that kind of stuff into it, or they have plans in place.
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I still feel like Sarenrae and Iomedae are pretty safe considering the Iconics that focus on them. The only real way I can see one of them being killed is if we do get a replacement that is taken up their mantle. Or we suddenly get a new iconic cleric and champion, which uh also seems unlikely. Maybe if Player Core 2 was coming after War of The Immortals, but its coming out first.
But then again this is all based off of assumptions that could be way off. Maybe they don't factor that kind of stuff into it, or they have plans in place.
Well... with Player Core 2 coming out, maybe there's a new champion iconic?
It would make some sense as Champion is not the same as Paladin, but Paizo's 2E iconic champion is just an updated 1E iconic Paladin.
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I still feel like Sarenrae and Iomedae are pretty safe considering the Iconics that focus on them. The only real way I can see one of them being killed is if we do get a replacement that is taken up their mantle. Or we suddenly get a new iconic cleric and champion, which uh also seems unlikely. Maybe if Player Core 2 was coming after War of The Immortals, but its coming out first.
But then again this is all based off of assumptions that could be way off. Maybe they don't factor that kind of stuff into it, or they have plans in place.
Well... with Player Core 2 coming out, maybe there's a new champion iconic?
It would make some sense as Champion is not the same as Paladin, but Paizo's 2E iconic champion is just an updated 1E iconic Paladin.
Yeah but Player Core 2 comes out *before* War of Immortals, which would mean potentially spoiling the reveal in War of Immortals, or releasing Player Core 2 with Seelah as the Champion Iconic and then, just a few months later getting a new Champion iconic. That was a point of my first post.
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Yeah but Player Core 2 comes out *before* War of Immortals, which would mean potentially spoiling the reveal in War of Immortals, or releasing Player Core 2 with Seelah as the Champion Iconic and then, just a few months later getting a new Champion iconic. That was a point of my first post.I still feel like Sarenrae and Iomedae are pretty safe considering the Iconics that focus on them. The only real way I can see one of them being killed is if we do get a replacement that is taken up their mantle. Or we suddenly get a new iconic cleric and champion, which uh also seems unlikely. Maybe if Player Core 2 was coming after War of The Immortals, but its coming out first.
But then again this is all based off of assumptions that could be way off. Maybe they don't factor that kind of stuff into it, or they have plans in place.
Well... with Player Core 2 coming out, maybe there's a new champion iconic?
It would make some sense as Champion is not the same as Paladin, but Paizo's 2E iconic champion is just an updated 1E iconic Paladin.
nah. just change the iconic to be a champion of some other god entirely.
they changed the iconics for gunslinger, oracle, summoner... what's weird about changing this one? could be for any reason... and it sure will build a bit of suspense, no? we'll know the new champion's deity is likely safe (champion of Abadar might be a good selection)... but the other 19, including saranrae? anything can happen baby!
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I mean they have changed Iconics in the past but that came with a change in edition. Remaster is still second edition. Again maybe they will change the iconic but I feel like it would only be likely if we Iomaedae is the one to go. If they do it just as a red herring then that would be way to silly, messing with brand, and identity for something short sighted I feel.
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I mean they have changed Iconics in the past but that came with a change in edition. Remaster is still second edition. Again maybe they will change the iconic but I feel like it would only be likely if we Iomaedae is the one to go. If they do it just as a red herring then that would be way to silly, messing with brand, and identity for something short sighted I feel.
Iomedae is probably pretty low on the list for the chopping block... but a new iconic CHAMPION rather than an updated PALADIN would still be fun.
Another thing to keep in mind is that they have only changed iconics for non-core classes. All of the original 12 iconics (including Seltyiel) stayed the same through the edition changed.
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Another thing to keep in mind is that they have only changed iconics for non-core classes. All of the original 12 iconics (including Seltyiel) stayed the same through the edition changed.
The Alchemist became core and had its Iconic change, which is a funny edge case.
Another thing to keep in mind is that they have only changed iconics for non-core classes. All of the original 12 iconics (including Seltyiel) stayed the same through the edition changed.The Alchemist became core and had its Iconic change, which is a funny edge case.
Became core, but the iconic which Fumbus replaced wasn't. So yeah, funny edge case, but doesn't really make the likelihood of an iconic from the CRB being replaced seem more likely (I'm pretty sure "they're one of the originals" is one of the listed reasons Seoni for example was just given some redesigning to actually make sense for where she's from instead of being replaced back when there was a small controversy back when Alahazra got replaced, but seriously do not quote me on that, it's my memory of a random passing statement from some Twitch stream almost four years ago lol).
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I don't think Kyra or Seelah would have to be replaced if either of their patron deities got taken out. Updating their designs to reflect them finding another faith could be an option.
Also, NGL, as much as I like Arazni, I was kind of coping that they'd use the empty spot as an opportunity to add a gay man to the core pantheon.
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I don't think Kyra or Seelah would have to be replaced if either of their patron deities got taken out. Updating their designs to reflect them finding another faith could be an option.
Also, NGL, as much as I like Arazni, I was kind of coping that they'd use the empty spot as an opportunity to add a gay man to the core pantheon.
I could have sworn Cayden was canonically bisexual, but I can't seem to find a source mentioning that. It might just be something I picked up from him being the archetypal God of Bards - it would be thematically in keeping with his general ethos, though the only romantic interests he seems to have are SHelyhn, Calistria and Desna as possible co-parent of Kurgess.
I can't think of a less common god or Empyreal Lord significant or popular enough to elevate in that spot, though it's possible that one of the Core 20 is already gay and it just hasn't been part of the published mythology so far, and Paizo can use the upcoming remaster to add it. Of the male members of the Core 20 who could be clarified as gay in the upcoming revision, I don't know if Abadar has much interest in romance in general, Asmodeus is Oppression-Sexual, Gozreh has always struck me as more asexual, Irori swore of earthly attachments as a monk and then ascended, Norgorber could be three gnomes in a trenchcoat for all anyone knows, and Zon-Kuthon Has Such Sights To Show You regardless of gender. Erastil and Torag are major proponents of Family, but 2e has clarified that at least in Erastil's case that doesn't preclude adoption. But they're both married to goddesses, and monogamous.
But I could maybe see Gorum, funnily enough. Historically, male lovers fighting alongside each other is an old trope going back to at least the Sacred Band of Thebes, there's some support for the idea that historically attested "blood brothers" are actually coded references to homosexual love, and making Gorum a patron of male gay lovers would also give him something to work with, character-wise, that isn't unending battle - even Ares wasn't JUST a god of war, he had other aspects to his worship as a god of agriculture, civic ethos, and, yes, love with his tryst with Aphrodite.
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I could have sworn Cayden was canonically bisexual, but I can't seem to find a source mentioning that.
It was mentioned in Lost Omens Highhelm in Trudd's entry that he and Cayden had trysts occasionally! (I had to actually look up the definition of tryst because I wasn't sure I wasn't hallucinating the bisexual confirmation when I first read it lmao)
And lol I'm also one of those who's coping for more gay/bi male deities, I don't even care if they're good or evil I just want them, so I love the Gorum idea! It also makes my Orc Gorum headcanon even better (love me some gay orcs).
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I don't think Kyra or Seelah would have to be replaced if either of their patron deities got taken out. Updating their designs to reflect them finding another faith could be an option.
Also, NGL, as much as I like Arazni, I was kind of coping that they'd use the empty spot as an opportunity to add a gay man to the core pantheon.
True but also their pre-made builds would have to change to to fit said new gods potentially. And idk, losing your god, losing your connextion to them has kind of been portrayed as a pretty traumatic thing. I'm not sure finding a new one would be so easy, or at least if they got a new one right away I feel like it would lose a bit of the weight of such a story
Might be Calistria, since they both have a vengance portofolio. It would make sense to avoid having core deities step on each others toes.
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Realized that IIRC authors have said that Arazni will not take the portfolio of whoever dies, but just the empty seat.
Which means the dead deity's interests will become less present to players, especially new ones.
So, which deity has a portfolio that is not so central to most PCs ?
TBH this is not good for my pet theory of Pharasma dying, since I do not see not having a deity of death (and not undeath) in the core 20.
It might be Calistria for the reasons stated above, though I doubt it as her appeal to players is quite specific.
I could now quite see Urgathoa being killed by the ascended Orc chieftain and be replaced by Arazni as deity of undead, for those undead who care about this.
Of the others, I feel Irori, god of Monks, and Gorum, god of Barbarians, are those most likely to not be terribly missed.
Maybe also Abadar, lord of civilization, though I know some players who love him.
From this point of view, the others feel pretty safe TBH.
So, which deity has a portfolio that is not so central to most PCs ?
Gozreh's role in the setting is mostly to have someone to pray to for good weather, any PC who wants to be into "nature, as a religion" just follows the Green Faith so we don't need him.
Nethys is a weird one since the people who are most dedicated to the furtherance of Magic are not Clerics.
I agree that Gorum is potentially vulnerable since people look at him as "the War God" when he's really the "Fight anybody, at any time, for any reason" God (he's an expy of Crom). This doesn't play that well with Player Characters who take that seriously.
I don't think I've ever seen an Irorian PC.
"Cayden's luck runs out" would be a fitting end to his story, but I don't see it.
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"Cayden's luck runs out" would be a fitting end to his story, but I don't see it.
I've long suspected that Aroden's death was connected to the Starstone. If we did have another Starstone-raised deity experience a mysterious death, that would be an interesting pattern.
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I've long suspected that Aroden's death was connected to the Starstone. If we did have another Starstone-raised deity experience a mysterious death, that would be an interesting pattern....
"Cayden's luck runs out" would be a fitting end to his story, but I don't see it.
That would make it Norgorber next on the chopping block, which I actually could see being interesting. He recently lost herald and champions in Agents of Edgewatch. Clearly him being ripped apart and all his secrets revealed would be fascinating. (And clearly they can kill multiple gods in one when it's revealed he is actually 4 halflings in a cloak pretending to be one god)
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I don't think I've ever seen an Irorian PC.Irori's self-perfection aspect makes him an ideal deity for Monk players at least.
Almost every monk PC I've seen was dedicated to some esoteric philosophy of the player's creation rather than some canonical deity though.
With Tian Xia on the docket and Vudra finally getting some love, I don’t see Irori dying any time soon.
Yeah, I don't think Irori is on the chopping block, but that's mostly because I don't think "the end of Irori" opens up very many stories compared to other choices. He's just more expendable than others since his portfolio doesn't cover a lot of characters.
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So, which deity has a portfolio that is not so central to most PCs ?Gozreh's role in the setting is mostly to have someone to pray to for good weather, any PC who wants to be into "nature, as a religion" just follows the Green Faith so we don't need him.
Nethys is a weird one since the people who are most dedicated to the furtherance of Magic are not Clerics.
I agree that Gorum is potentially vulnerable since people look at him as "the War God" when he's really the "Fight anybody, at any time, for any reason" God (he's an expy of Crom). This doesn't play that well with Player Characters who take that seriously.
I don't think I've ever seen an Irorian PC.
"Cayden's luck runs out" would be a fitting end to his story, but I don't see it.
I did not put Gozreh on my list because worshipping the deity of nature appeals to many people IMO. And most players, especially new ones, will not know about the Green Faith.
I think Nethys is similarly safe for being the god of magic. Which is an essential component of fantasy.
Cayden is the god of the tavern, patron of adventurers everywhere. I do not see him leaving.
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With Tian Xia on the docket and Vudra finally getting some love, I don’t see Irori dying any time soon.
TBH all deities from Tian Xia and Vudra that I know of feel far more interesting than Irori.
Come to think of it, Tian Xia will bring us its own Core 20, so people looking to play a faithful of a Tian deity will have a lot of choices beyond Irori.
Now, I agree getting rid of Irori does not feel like it opens a lot of new stories by itself.
With Tian Xia on the docket and Vudra finally getting some love, I don’t see Irori dying any time soon.TBH all deities from Tian Xia and Vudra that I know of feel far more interesting than Irori.
Come to think of it, Tian Xia will bring us its own Core 20, so people looking to play a faithful of a Tian deity will have a lot of choices beyond Irori.
Now, I agree getting rid of Irori does not feel like it opens a lot of new stories by itself.
I mean, he’s our Buddha-equivalent, and the archetypal Monk - that’s useful to have across both regions.
Irori strikes me as one of those gods who mostly exist to embody a philosophy to justify its presence in-universe to make the world feel broader, filling a niche in the worldbuilding, but who most players are going to go glazen-eyed when they came to pick a god for their cleric. And if you're going to play an Iroran then chances are you're playing a monk anyway. Which doesn't mean he's not important, but it is a bit of an odd niche. It's the same problem I have with Gorum, where he's just The War God because the world needs a war god, with not much mythology to him, though at least Irori has more to him to work with.
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That would make it Norgorber next on the chopping block, which I actually could see being interesting. He recently lost herald and champions in Agents of Edgewatch. Clearly him being ripped apart and all his secrets revealed would be fascinating. (And clearly they can kill multiple gods in one when it's revealed he is actually 4 halflings in a cloak pretending to be one god)I've long suspected that Aroden's death was connected to the Starstone. If we did have another Starstone-raised deity experience a mysterious death, that would be an interesting pattern....
"Cayden's luck runs out" would be a fitting end to his story, but I don't see it.
Norgorber is interesting b/c he's mysterious. Revealing his secrets makes him boring, even in death, thus he's safe.
Besides, we can't kill the true god of humanity, can we?
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Irori strikes me as one of those gods who mostly exist to embody a philosophy to justify its presence in-universe to make the world feel broader, filling a niche in the worldbuilding, but who most players are going to go glazen-eyed when they came to pick a god for their cleric. And if you're going to play an Iroran then chances are you're playing a monk anyway. Which doesn't mean he's not important, but it is a bit of an odd niche. It's the same problem I have with Gorum, where he's just The War God because the world needs a war god, with not much mythology to him, though at least Irori has more to him to work with.
There's at least some fun tension in the Gorum / Iomedae rivalry. Irori? Snore-city.
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That would make it Norgorber next on the chopping block, which I actually could see being interesting. He recently lost herald and champions in Agents of Edgewatch. Clearly him being ripped apart and all his secrets revealed would be fascinating. (And clearly they can kill multiple gods in one when it's revealed he is actually 4 halflings in a cloak pretending to be one god)I've long suspected that Aroden's death was connected to the Starstone. If we did have another Starstone-raised deity experience a mysterious death, that would be an interesting pattern....
"Cayden's luck runs out" would be a fitting end to his story, but I don't see it.
Token reminder that Stabbing Beast is the herald with canonically highest death count even before he died in 1e adventure :p
Like... Stabbing Beast seems to be purposefully sent to missions where he might die and Norgorber just brings him back from dead because mission was accomplished. I think he is more equivalent of Norgorber sending glorified thug at you to tell you "You are on my list now" than super secret operative
But yeah if you ask me, who is literally worst option to kill off?
Erastil.
Why? Because 1) He isn't developed enough to be interesting dramatic death 2) His death would still anger lot of people 3) He has important role in setting itself so removing him causes problems