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What is with these new names? Couldn't Paizo have picked names that are phonetically simple, sound something like English, and that have some sort of clear, descriptive meaning?
Abyss and Abyssal worked because there was a clear connection*. Now, no one is going to know that Cthonian has anything at all to do with the Outer Rifts.
Half my players and GMs are going to be stumbling over these words for years to come. I can see the eyes of others glazing over already.
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Cthonian/cthonic is an old greek one and from my experience so far fits for creatures from an underworld
Empyrian has a vaguely similar Backstory
The names of the djinn probably Gail from India and are tied to their original Mythology
It's not that bad and it's mit like duergar was particulary english
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What is with these new names? Couldn't Paizo have picked names that are phonetically simple, sound something like English, and that have some sort of clear, descriptive meaning?
Abyss and Abyssal worked because there was a clear connection*. Now, no one is going to know that Cthonian has anything at all to do with the Outer Rifts.
Half my players and GMs are going to be stumbling over these words for years to come. I can see the eyes of others glazing over already.
** spoiler omitted **
Well, the outer rifts are essentially a sprawling network of caves, so it's pretty reasonable that the word about going beneath the earth probably has something to do with it.
If you want to drop all non-english words though, sure. Just get rid of words like bards, druids, magic...
Hell, "abyss" isn't even English.
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Oread at least has "ore" in there (same as dryads and naiads) but shaitans were a little silly as the name for the earth genie.
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Lots of people very mad at Paizo for introducing all these silly made up hard to remember names when they're in their 40s. Why couldn't they be like TSR and come up with simple, obvious, easy to remember names when they're preadolescent?
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What is with these new names? Couldn't Paizo have picked names that are phonetically simple, sound something like English, and that have some sort of clear, descriptive meaning?
I mean, if you know how to say "Cthulhu" then you know how to say Cthonic.
Empyreal was already in the game, so Emypreal->Empyrean is easy.
Sak-Voth is named for the top layer of the Darklands- Nar-Voth.
I don't really think any of these are that far afield.
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Lots of people very mad at Paizo for introducing all these silly made up hard to remember names when they're in their 40s. Why couldn't they be like TSR and come up with simple, obvious, easy to remember names when they're preadolescent?
I'm sure you were teasing, but in truth I have many associates who do actually have a harder time of it now that they are older.
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Lots of people very mad at Paizo for introducing all these silly made up hard to remember names when they're in their 40s. Why couldn't they be like TSR and come up with simple, obvious, easy to remember names when they're preadolescent?I'm sure you were teasing, but in truth I have many associates who do actually have a harder time of it now that they are older.
It's just like learning a new language. Even though there's no new grammar, learning new vocabulary is still harder when you're an adult.
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I think the important thing to keep in mind is that it's okay for players or GMs to get it "wrong". You can go buy your Miihril from a Tiefling Gnoll in the City of Brass after haggling extensively in Ignan and nobody will be perturbed by this even if you really were buying Skysilver from a Nephilim Kholo in Medina Mudii’a after negotiating in Pyric.
In the actual setting, people are going to have a thousand different names for one thing if that thing is important (e.g. The Big Apple, The City that Never Sleeps, Gotham, the Empire State, etc.) Making this sort of thing also happen in your fictional setting is great!
It's also not unrealistic to have the sort of phenomenon parallel to how Mandarin is not "Chinese" but a lot of people call it that anyway.
I think the important thing to keep in mind is that it's okay for players or GMs to get it "wrong".
This is more an issue with connecting the name to the item in question for me: to this day I still refer to slaadi as salads [d&d], which is fine for me. Skysilver and Kholo already don't offer much recognition to me even though I can pronounce them. I personally will most likely just keep using mithral and gnoll when possible.
Heck, people argue over how drow is pronounced and that's about as simple a word as you can get.
In the actual setting, people are going to have a thousand different names for one thing if that thing is important (e.g. The Big Apple, The City that Never Sleeps, Gotham, the Empire State, etc.) Making this sort of thing also happen in your fictional setting is great!
It's also not unrealistic to have the sort of phenomenon parallel to how Mandarin is not "Chinese" but a lot of people call it that anyway.
That's a good point.
I think the important thing to keep in mind is that it's okay for players or GMs to get it "wrong". You can go buy your Miihril from a Tiefling Gnoll in the City of Brass after haggling extensively in Ignan and nobody will be perturbed by this even if you really were buying Skysilver from a Nephilim Kholo in Medina Mudii’a after negotiating in Pyric.
Ugh. That makes my own head hurt. If I showed that example to my friends they'd drop the Remaster so fast it just might break the physical laws of reality.
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Not playing D&D means not using D&D's words. I'm alright with it, personally... so long as I get what names the various Kholo cultures call themselves soon :p
I'm hopeful to see Munsahirs go some interesting places (there's one obscure, legendary one in Golarion lore), as Azers have always been kind of inert across both games.
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What is with these new names? Couldn't Paizo have picked names that are phonetically simple, sound something like English, and that have some sort of clear, descriptive meaning?I mean, if you know how to say "Cthulhu" then you know how to say Cthonic.
Empyreal was already in the game, so Emypreal->Empyrean is easy.
Sak-Voth is named for the top layer of the Darklands- Nar-Voth.
I don't really think any of these are that far afield.
It's also specifically a real world word whose real-world definition is MUCH more accurate than Abyss and Abyssal ever were for "a supernatural otherworldly realm where demons live."
As I grew up playing D&D, the game was the #1 source for me to expand my vocabulary, and that sort of educational aspect is something I think remains equally important today.
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It's just like learning a new language. Even though there's no new grammar, learning new vocabulary is still harder when you're an adult.Lots of people very mad at Paizo for introducing all these silly made up hard to remember names when they're in their 40s. Why couldn't they be like TSR and come up with simple, obvious, easy to remember names when they're preadolescent?I'm sure you were teasing, but in truth I have many associates who do actually have a harder time of it now that they are older.
That is not something anyone can control.
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What is with these new names? Couldn't Paizo have picked names that are phonetically simple, sound something like English, and that have some sort of clear, descriptive meaning?I mean, if you know how to say "Cthulhu" then you know how to say Cthonic.
Empyreal was already in the game, so Emypreal->Empyrean is easy.
Sak-Voth is named for the top layer of the Darklands- Nar-Voth.
I don't really think any of these are that far afield.
It's also specifically a real world word whose real-world definition is MUCH more accurate than Abyss and Abyssal ever were for "a supernatural otherworldly realm where demons live."
As I grew up playing D&D, the game was the #1 source for me to expand my vocabulary, and that sort of educational aspect is something I think remains equally important today.
Cthonic is a particularly rare word. There are a few people who would be able to tell you what it means. I am OK with that one. But Abyss, Aquan, Auran, Mithral, Terran, City of Brass, Dijinni all had some meaning for me prior to RPGs. Their replacement words don't.
Now a couple of the replacements like Thalassic are obviously words I could have known so I guess that is educational. But the rest of it is just noise.
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Note that "Pyrrhic" is named for "Pyrrhus of Epirus", who lost almost all of his forces through a few battles he won against the Romans.
Also Pyrrhic is pronounced more like "Pirr-ick" whereas I would imagine "Pyric" to sound like "pyre". So it's a short vowel sound for the victory you don't want and a long vowel sound to talk to the fire folks.
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Cthonic is a particularly rare word. There are a few people who would be able to tell you what it means. I am OK with that one. But Abyss, Aquan, Auran, Mithral, Terran, City of Brass, Dijinni all had some meaning for me prior to RPGs. Their replacement words don't.
Now a couple of the replacements like Thalassic are obviously words I could have known so I guess that is educational. But the rest of it is just noise.
I was only addressing the word Cthonic/Cthonian in my comment.
The fact that we have to replace a LARGE number of OGL-only words (regardless of wether or not those words are also real-world words or not) means that learning new names is going to be a part of the process we (as the creators of Paizo products) and you (as customers of Paizo products) are going to have to learn and get used to as we continue the necessary adjustments away from OGL products to ORC products.
When we create these new names, we do so with a mix of using real words, adjusting real words to new words, or creating brand new words. Each new name is curated on a case-by-case basis and depends on the nature of the word being changed and whether the subject itself draws from a real-world culture that deserves better representation, is a nonsense word that just needs to sound "right," or anything in between.
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I am loving the new terminology!
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Cthonic is a particularly rare word.
And one that has a broader meaning: it's ancient Greek for things "in, under, or beneath the earth". While it CAN be referencing the Underworld, it also encompasses things like planting and growing as it takes place in part under the earth: this means gods like Plutus, Demeter, Saturn, Flora, Antheia, Phaunos, Ceres, Priapus, Pan, ect that are associated with plants are Cthonic deities but have no relation to the underworld or what in PF2 used to be the abyss. So while it's a real word... I'm not sure it's a good fit for those that know what it means: personally, I'd have preferred one of those "nonsense word that just needs to sound "right"" in this case.
I am loving the new terminology!
I'm glad it's hitting the mark with someone.
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I am loving the new terminology!I'm glad it's hitting the mark with someone.
No complaints from me! I like Naari a lot more than having both Ifrits and Efreets.
Cthonic is a particularly rare word.And one that has a broader meaning: it's ancient Greek for things "in, under, or beneath the earth". While it CAN be referencing the Underworld, it also encompasses things like planting and growing as it takes place in part under the earth: this means gods like Plutus, Demeter, Saturn, Flora, Antheia, Phaunos, Ceres, Priapus, Pan, ect that are associated with plants are Cthonic deities but have no relation to the underworld or what in PF2 used to be the abyss. So while it's a real word... I'm not sure it's a good fit for those that know what it means: personally, I'd have preferred one of those "nonsense word that just needs to sound "right"" in this case.
Right, I thought it could have been the new Undercommmon.
When we create these new names, we do so with a mix of using real words, adjusting real words to new words, or creating brand new words. Each new name is curated on a case-by-case basis and depends on the nature of the word being changed and whether the subject itself draws from a real-world culture that deserves better representation, is a nonsense word that just needs to sound "right," or anything in between.
Would you be willing to discuss where "Medina Mudii’a" comes from? I know "Medina" is the name of a somewhat important earth city which was originally a desert oasis (i.e. why people started living there to begin with.) So imagine at some level the City formerly known as Brass is supposed to be an Oasis in the plane of fire. But Mudii'a I've got nothing for.
This is the new name that I'm having the hardest time wrapping my head around. Like Djinn-> Jaathoom was puzzling until I realized that the rebrand also involves "they are more associated with dreams and nightmares" which is fine since Djinni always seemed kind of like the "basic one".
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No complaints from me! I like Naari a lot more than having both Ifrits and Efreets.I am loving the new terminology!I'm glad it's hitting the mark with someone.
Yeah... a no from me. I'm here wondering, what the heck is a narri? *uses search on rage of elements* nope. *uses search on core preview* Oh, ifrit... Yeah, I'll just keep using ifrit.
I know Narri means a woman/adult female human being in urdu, lily in Korean, a Malayali slang/abusing word related to stinking...
Ah, here we go "fiery, full of fire, hellish" in Hindi... Well, not the first several meanings to come to mind. :P
Would you be willing to discuss where "Medina Mudii’a" comes from? I know "Medina" is the name of a somewhat important earth city which was originally a desert oasis (i.e. why people started living there to begin with.) So imagine at some level the City formerly known as Brass is supposed to be an Oasis in the plane of fire. But Mudii'a I've got nothing for.
Medina can mean the ancient quarter of various North African cities [or literally just a town/city] and Mudii can mean of great size/huge/large or belonging to a period that is long past/manufactured long ago. That's the best I have. So it could translate into big ancient city. *shrug*
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When we create these new names, we do so with a mix of using real words, adjusting real words to new words, or creating brand new words. Each new name is curated on a case-by-case basis and depends on the nature of the word being changed and whether the subject itself draws from a real-world culture that deserves better representation, is a nonsense word that just needs to sound "right," or anything in between.Would you be willing to discuss where "Medina Mudii’a" comes from? I know "Medina" is the name of a somewhat important earth city which was originally a desert oasis (i.e. why people started living there to begin with.) So imagine at some level the City formerly known as Brass is supposed to be an Oasis in the plane of fire. But Mudii'a I've got nothing for.
This is the new name that I'm having the hardest time wrapping my head around. Like Djinn-> Jaathoom was puzzling until I realized that the rebrand also involves "they are more associated with dreams and nightmares" which is fine since Djinni always seemed kind of like the "basic one".
That's something that the folks on the Rules team can explore—I wasn't part of that renaming so while I know the basics, I don't know the details and don't want to make mistakes in explaining it.
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Right, I thought it could have been the new Undercommmon.Cthonic is a particularly rare word.And one that has a broader meaning: it's ancient Greek for things "in, under, or beneath the earth". While it CAN be referencing the Underworld, it also encompasses things like planting and growing as it takes place in part under the earth: this means gods like Plutus, Demeter, Saturn, Flora, Antheia, Phaunos, Ceres, Priapus, Pan, ect that are associated with plants are Cthonic deities but have no relation to the underworld or what in PF2 used to be the abyss. So while it's a real word... I'm not sure it's a good fit for those that know what it means: personally, I'd have preferred one of those "nonsense word that just needs to sound "right"" in this case.
It certainly could have, but we already had Sakvroth established as a language name in the Darklands (even if it's not a name that really got used much after its introduction in "Into the Darklands"). We had no similarly prior established word for Abyssal, since we've always relied on that OGL application of the word for that language. So since we did have a new word for Undercommon and not one for Abyssal, and since in our setting the Abyss/Outer Rifts are very much "in, under, or beneath" (the outer planes, in this case, not the earth) but ALSO has applications to the underworld... AND it sounds creepy already because of its association with Lovecraftian elements (I suspect Lovecraft was influenced by this word as well in naming Cthulhu) all helped me make the decision to push for it as the new name for Abyssal.
Of course, for home games, each group can always choose to retain the previous OGL names at their table if those names work better, or come up with new names for these concepts, and sharing them here is a great way to help other GMs either come to terms with the new names we've chosen as the "official" names for anything or if they'd rather go with different ones.
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Thanks for chiming in, James. It's a challenging situation, and your team is making awesome sauce out of it. I can't wait to get my digital hands on the remaster.
After learning these names since 1980, I am excited to let them go in favor of something completely disconnected from that other company. Anyone who wants to keep calling things by their legacy names is welcome to. The safety of being disconnected from legacy is such a relief when I think about the future of Paizo and the best iteration of the game...
...That is about to get even better! I still can't believe how much feedback is being acted on to improve the game after just a few short years of P2's release. I've never been more excited about the game as now.
The fact that we have to replace a LARGE number of OGL-only words (regardless of wether or not those words are also real-world words or not) means that learning new names is going to be a part of the process we (as the creators of Paizo products) and you (as customers of Paizo products) are going to have to learn and get used to as we continue the necessary adjustments away from OGL products to ORC products.
When we create these new names, we do so with a mix of using real words, adjusting real words to new words, or creating brand new words. Each new name is curated on a case-by-case basis and depends on the nature of the word being changed and whether the subject itself draws from a real-world culture that deserves better representation, is a nonsense word that just needs to sound "right," or anything in between.
Please tell the Paizo staff I said "Best of luck in your endeavors! And thanks."
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Probably unchanged, WotC didn't invent Hell *insert jokes here*
They probably could have gotten away with Celestial, as angels are "celestial beings" in a lot of traditions, but they still changed it.
Probably unchanged, WotC didn't invent Hell *insert jokes here*They probably could have gotten away with Celestial, as angels are "celestial beings" in a lot of traditions, but they still changed it.
Or abyss which can literally means "the regions of hell conceived of as a bottomless pit." [oxford languages]
Yeah, the real issue with the name "abyss" is that there wasn't really a "descent" aspect of it and if you kept delving in that place you don't find a void or oblivion or anything, you just find nastier things.
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Problem is the Pathfinder Abyss wasn't a bottomless pit it was mostly what the DnD Abyss was
TThe abyss, as per pathfinder: "Also referred to as the Outer Rifts, it is accessible through huge rents in the Maelstrom, opening into fiendish depths, vast beyond imagining." Sonds pretty close to me. It's presented as endless layers tied together by the river styx.
Yeah, the real issue with the name "abyss" is that there wasn't really a "descent" aspect of it and if you kept delving in that place you don't find a void or oblivion or anything, you just find nastier things.
I always took the decent aspect as the river: River Styx
"The only constant in this always-changing plane is the River Styx, which threads its way through or alongside all of the major layers and whose tributaries are never far from any realm. Though linear movement is nigh-impossible, with the improbable loops and extra-dimensional angles, finding the Styx is the best way to make it out of the rifts."| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
When we create these new names, we do so with a mix of using real words, adjusting real words to new words, or creating brand new words. Each new name is curated on a case-by-case basis and depends on the nature of the word being changed and whether the subject itself draws from a real-world culture that deserves better representation, is a nonsense word that just needs to sound "right," or anything in between.Would you be willing to discuss where "Medina Mudii’a" comes from?
Not an Arabic speaker, but preliminary search suggests that Medina means city, and mudii'a may be a respelling of a word that means bright or brilliant, so bright city seems fitting.
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Also, "Cthonic/Cthonian" are real words, so you can go to a place like dictionary.com and click a speaker button there to hear the word pronounced out loud.
Well, poo. I shouldn't have clicked the link, but I did, and I was pronouncing it wrong all this time, which means I've been pronouncing Cthulhu wrong for the last [redacted] decades.
At least this isn't on par with renaming Tyrannosaurus Rex 'Swordtooth Razortitan' or calling demons and devils tanari and baatezu or something. :)
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Cthonic is a particularly rare word.And one that has a broader meaning: it's ancient Greek for things "in, under, or beneath the earth". While it CAN be referencing the Underworld, it also encompasses things like planting and growing as it takes place in part under the earth: this means gods like Plutus, Demeter, Saturn, Flora, Antheia, Phaunos, Ceres, Priapus, Pan, ect that are associated with plants are Cthonic deities but have no relation to the underworld or what in PF2 used to be the abyss. So while it's a real word... I'm not sure it's a good fit for those that know what it means: personally, I'd have preferred one of those "nonsense word that just needs to sound "right"" in this case.
Just a note that we also have Marvel's Chthon : "Chthon is one of the Elder Gods of Earth and the planet's first master of black magic. Like his brother Set, Chthon degenerated into a demon."
