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I imagine the idea is that critical blast junctions need to be pretty strong since they're competing for resources against things that are going to apply more often.
So "set them on fire" is the natural choice for a fire crit, so you'd want to keep that away from things that would cheapen the crit junction.
I imagine the idea is that critical blast junctions need to be pretty strong since they're competing for resources against things that are going to apply more often.
So "set them on fire" is the natural choice for a fire crit, so you'd want to keep that away from things that would cheapen the crit junction.
That argument is a bit undermined by the fact that the crit junction isn't all that good. 1d6 fire on crit that then slowly increases by +1s kind of isn't.
That said... it's true that getting that junction while going mono-fire would feel even worse if you had a bunch of impulses out there throwing around ongoing fire, so I'm not saying that you're wrong, per se.
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I really am not a fan of the way Paizo has some abilities scale.
1d6 damage at 5 isn't amazing but it feels really weird to me that over the course of the next 15 levels it only gains 2 additional points of damage while monsters gain hundreds upon hundreds of HP.
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Yeah, none of the persistent damage crit effects are any good. This is keeping in line with the rest but you might as well just fork the path if you're considering that junction.
...unless you specifically want some of those single-element-only feats... or have already gotten them.
ARe the single element impulses good? In PF1 when I build a mono-element Kineticist it was mostly for thematic reasons, since "not picking a second element" was generally a weaker choice.
I'm surprised fire doesn't have any persistent damage effects. At least none I could spot. Am I missing a composite impulse or something that does persistent fire?
Fire/metal molten wire does 2d6 slashing and puts a recurring 2d4 fire on an enemy until they destroy the wire or spend an action escaping. Scales by 1d6 and 1d4 per 4 levels. It isn't persistent damage either so it stacks with it.
I'm surprised fire doesn't have any persistent damage effects. At least none I could spot. Am I missing a composite impulse or something that does persistent fire?
You get fake persistent fire from Thermal Nimbus, which inflicts no-save fire damage every round to those in your aura (boosted by the aura junctino weakness), and from the composite fire/metal impulse Molten Wire, which after a hit inflicts (not-persistent) fire damage every round for 1 minute or until they Escape it or destroy it with damage.
Actual persistent damage that ends on a flat check is just via the crit junction choice on your elemental blast.
ARe the single element impulses good? In PF1 when I build a mono-element Kineticist it was mostly for thematic reasons, since "not picking a second element" was generally a weaker choice.
The single element impulses are good, but I wouldn't say they're all so good you go mono element though if that's what you mean. Not even for the composites though, just because there's enough good stuff in each that shopping around is really beneficial.
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well, since the persistent damage came from one of the impulses, it qualifies for the Aura junction of fire for the fire weakness.
so it really is something like 1d6+12 persistent by level 20, which is respectable for persistent damage i guess.
Incediary aura by level 20 is 6d4, which averages about the same (since that one doesn't benefit from the weakness)
Okay. Fair point, and one I hadn't considered.
At the same time, Incendiary Aura is a lot easier to stick on people than blast crits... and once they're on fire, they can't escape most of the damage just by not being in your aura (or your aura dropping).
ARe the single element impulses good? In PF1 when I build a mono-element Kineticist it was mostly for thematic reasons, since "not picking a second element" was generally a weaker choice.
Do you mean the single element univesal feats? There aren't a lot and I don't think they're great. The best is a counterspell of magical effects that have your elemental trait, but unless you crit you only avoid the effect on yourself, you don't negate it totally. (At higher level it lets you reflect it, though.)
There's also junctions to reward focusing on one element. Those range from good to very fringe. Some have generally good ones across the board (air, fire), othes are variable, some are mostly poor (metal).
well, since the persistent damage came from one of the impulses, it qualifies for the Aura junction of fire for the fire weakness.
so it really is something like 1d6+12 persistent by level 20, which is respectable for persistent damage i guess.
Incediary aura by level 20 is 6d4, which averages about the same (since that one doesn't benefit from the weakness)
Okay. Fair point, and one I hadn't considered.
At the same time, Incendiary Aura is a lot easier to stick on people than blast crits... and once they're on fire, they can't escape most of the damage just by not being in your aura (or your aura dropping).
I did my calculations with the persistent triggering aura weakness. It can provide a decent chunk of damage at extremely high levels of de/buffing but giving that to the kineticist isn't nearly as impactful as buffing a regular martial instead. With less math fixing it hardly does anything at all, statistically anyway.
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How many auras can you have up at one time?
You have an aura (that does nothing except look pretty) when you Channel Elements. You must do this to use any impulses.
You can modify it with a stance impulse feat. You can ony have one stance active at a time.
You can also modify it with aura junctions by selecting an element you already have at certain levels and forgoing a new element. You can do this up to three times - start dual elements, add one element, and then you have three more opportunities to choose their aura junctions. All three aura junctions would be in effect at one time.
Other junction options, like skill junctions and resistance junction, modify you, but only when the aura is up. They don't modify the aura itself, though.
How many auras can you have up at one time?
One stance as usual and if you spend all of your gate progression on it, three. Dual element start, tri at 5 and then aura junctions at 9, 13 and 17.
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ARe the single element impulses good? In PF1 when I build a mono-element Kineticist it was mostly for thematic reasons, since "not picking a second element" was generally a weaker choice.
There are some single element feats, a lot of which aren't super special. Elemental Overlap is potentially very useful, since it lets you take composites associated with your element.
The main decision point though is going to come down to how much you value your junctions and how many in-element impulses are worth picking up. If you have good junctions you haven't taken, and still have in-element impulses you want, Fork is just going to make you worse since it gives you fewer total things... but if your junctions don't give you something you want, then there's no real reason not to fork.
So consequently some elements look really strong mono and some elements make mono look like a hard sell.
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From my observations, especially blasts, are in a very weird spot: you seem to rely on them early on quite a bit, then as the more powerful stances come into play, and most mid and higher impulses are Overflow action economy becomes very tricky to choose (do i do a blast, do i reactivate my stance, etc), and then suddenly at level 19-20 they become mainstay again with the free action and quick action becoming available.
Circumstantially, those are the exact same levels that suddenly your accuracy with those blasts goes from "worse than a martial" to "better than a martial".
Huh. I'd been thinking that the idea would be to build into either overflow or stances. In some ways I guess it's a case of "overflow, stance, and blast - pick two". I suspect that as we come to understand this stuff better a lot of these strategies and tradeoffs will wind up being refined one way and another.
I really think it's kind of cool that we already know this much about it, and yet it's clear that there's still a huge amount that we haven't yet figured out about the implications.
twitches, waiting for his copy
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It's not perfect, for water the previous Paizocon image you can google is better than what he has, and metal seems to be missing Ally Flesh and Steel, but it's helpful.
basically it boils down to this:
as long as you have impulses you want to pick from your elements, there's no reason to Fork.even if a specific junction is a small benefit, it still is one.
I think the way Reflow Elements (daily retrain of 1-2 impulses per day after level 11) works makes it a little more complex. You may want to plan out a mix of how many impulse slots and your max level available for retraining (or eventually Omnikinesis) you have allocated to each element once this opens up.
If you fork for the first time at 13th and now have a single 12th level impulse, it may be annoying to have to lose it if you want to occasionally have one of the 1-8th level ones.
Not a big deal, but could come up.
i'm still wondering why they havent already errataed the earth/water impulse though... it has been pointed out that it's broken since the copies started circulating.
Water/metal is also lacking a duration or sutained option. Is it one round, 1 minute (extremely rare and unlikely), or 1 round with sustain option (probably)?
The composites have some issues.
basically it boils down to this:
as long as you have impulses you want to pick from your elements, there's no reason to Fork.even if a specific junction is a small benefit, it still is one.
I think you have to think about whether you might like impulses from other elements *more*. Like, this in-element impulse might be useful, but is that one more useful?
Honestly, I expect to be planning this stuff out from the beginning - first figure out which junctions and splits I'm going to want, then figure out which order to take them in. If anything, I expect that I'll be doing a lot of "start with two elements, and then never split after that".
Reflow only allows Same-element retrains.
so, as long as you have a healthy mix of your (as an example) 2 elements, there's no reason to Fork just to Fork. Since you'll only have that 1 single 3rd element impulse to retrain.
(as for Omnikenisis... i think that it will be a hard sell. the class is so starved for actions, that a uinique quicken for your stuff will be hard not to take)
Same element retrains is why you may want to fork earlier - so that a later fork doesn't have an orphaned single impulse for you to swap around when needed, while an earlier one has three or four but none of them high enough level to swap for the highest ones you could have bought with a feat you haven't managed to invest yet.
Example at level 13:
You have three or four impulses each in fire and air, but you took aura shaping at 10, and free sustain at 12, so none of them are higher level than 8. When reflow elements comes, you can swap them around, but only up to level 8.
You fork to earth, and now have a level 12 bonus impulse. But if you reflow that to grab something lower for a day, you may feel sad you lost your 12. You can plan around this by taking your elements in a different order if it really matters to you. It probably won't.
At 14 you can invest a feat in air or fire, raising your retrain cap from 8 to 14, but that doesn't solve your earth problem, to the extent it is a problem.
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Yeah I saw that. Just looking for something so I don't need to take oracle dedication for incendiary aura lol.
Kineticist aura of fire weakness only works with impulses.
One interesting alternative for non-fire DPR is use Desert Wind stance (air/earth composite impulse).
In practice it gives a similar damage bonus to fire weakness (2 points of damage weaker) for AoE but doubles for single target (usually Elemental Blast) at same time that gives you concealed condition also helping defensively.
Looking at the document on the Kineticist, I think it is safe to say that a lot of the "this is a very complicated class" just comes from "this is a new class that is long (because unliike a spellcaster it can't put its special abilities elsewhere in the book)". Like, yeah it's got a few mechanics but at the very least if you stick to single gate, I feel it could be very beginner friendly (though with more elements the choice paralysis might start to be a bit much). Seems like Paizo delivered on their goal of that.
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i think they did a good job in easeing in the difficulty of a kineticst turn with their levels.
so, early levels you will see mostly non-overflow stuff, you will have less access to powerful stances, and etc.
as the levels progress, the turns become more complicated, not only because of "more abilities to choose from", but also because the mechanics themselves start to be more complex.
while initially you could easily do something like gather+blast->two action impulse, next turn overflow 2 action->gather+blast
by midlevels you have 3 action overflows, stances that you want to keep active (so you can't always gather+blast), tactical decisions because of a lot of direct area denial tools (walls, hazardous terrains, etc), mobility things, sustained durations, added effects from aura gates, and etc
add in the fact that every level adds some sort of permanent available ability added to the stack, since there's no daily limit on those, and it starts getting more difficult to plan a turn imo.
so i think it's one of those classes that if you start from low levels and build upon the learning curve will be much smoother compared to starting directly at level 9, 10, 11, etc.
IMO kineticist class is one of the most solid class options (if not the most) in the game.
Paizo designers made an incredible job here. Because they made a class without unfun taxes, with interesting options, a lot of combinations, no trap feats making almost everyone even the most critics to like the class.
IMO it would be a reference to be followed for any new or reviewed class.
That's why I said that's a class that can compete with fighters as top solid class in the system.
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What's the opinions on the new barbarian instinct? It seems kinda lame aside from just going for support with the kineticist multiclass thanks to the poor DC and attack rolls you'll have with impulses. Not really what I had in mind for a raging elementalist though.But basically is a dragon instinct with a most frequent AoE "explosion" and able to switch element damage type but a worse damage progression and that can MC with kineticist without worry about to use Moment of Clarity to use your utility impulses.
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And concealment against ranged!
i think they did a good job in easeing in the difficulty of a kineticst turn with their levels.
so, early levels you will see mostly non-overflow stuff, you will have less access to powerful stances, and etc.
as the levels progress, the turns become more complicated, not only because of "more abilities to choose from", but also because the mechanics themselves start to be more complex.
while initially you could easily do something like gather+blast->two action impulse, next turn overflow 2 action->gather+blast
by midlevels you have 3 action overflows, stances that you want to keep active (so you can't always gather+blast), tactical decisions because of a lot of direct area denial tools (walls, hazardous terrains, etc), mobility things, sustained durations, added effects from aura gates, and etc
add in the fact that every level adds some sort of permanent available ability added to the stack, since there's no daily limit on those, and it starts getting more difficult to plan a turn imo.
so i think it's one of those classes that if you start from low levels and build upon the learning curve will be much smoother compared to starting directly at level 9, 10, 11, etc.
IMO kineticist class is one of the most solid class options (if not the most) in the game.
Paizo designers made an incredible job here. Because they made a class without unfun taxes, with interesting options, a lot of combinations, no trap feats making almost everyone even the most critics to like the class.
IMO it would be a reference to be followed for any new or reviewed class.
That's why I said that's a class that can compete with fighters as top solid class in the system.
Yeah, really the only feat I feel could be considered a "tax" is the Safe Elements feat, as even if you're only taking a single stance feat it is still an immensely potent feat that you'd feel the hurt for not taking. Outside that? Only other issue is that 2-action blasts could do with some kind of buff which keeps it relevant beyond the first couple levels (either making it further increase the damage somehow, or even just saying you can Gather Elements as 2 actions to use a 2 action Elemental Blast. Even just feat options would be nice, as I understand that it's not really supposed to stay something that's super important).
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Lots of impulses don’t need safe elements. Fire doesn’t need it with flying flame and thermal nimbus.
It's not as much the normal aoes as the various aura stances. Across all the elements I checked (Air, Wood, Metal, and Water), from levels 1-10 all of the stances you're given will harm your allies within 10 feet of you just as much as your foes. It's not nessisarily a full blown feat tax (thus why I said considered instead of just is) as you can always just not take the stances, but if you wanna use most of the stance feats the class offers you, you'll (or more accurately, your allies) definitely feel the hurt if you don't take it, as in a game where positioning plays such a major role, your allies having to avoid going within 10 feet of you will come up as a major issue incredibly frequently.
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Neither of the fire stances harms allies. Thermal Nimbus does half level cold or fire damage to everyone in the aura, but also provides twice as much of the same resistance to allies only. The other one is a pure ally buff aura. And flying fire is designed as a bread and butter no friendly fire impulse with its shapeable line.
Yes, the others have problems.