Can a caster dimension door into the air?
Well, sure, I guess. If you are sure you really want to do that.
But if you are thinking with portals, remember that the target is only yourself and the items you are wearing or carrying. It doesn't create a rift that you can shove other heavy objects through. And you can't move a target victim with it either.
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I would suggest Blazing Dive for that purpose instead.
I strongly suggest that you have some anti-fall ability before do this otherwise this can be a little problematic.
Yeah, I'm trying to think of what the use case here would be.
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Agreed. Technically, after casting DDoor you would immediately fall, as you didn't get there with a Fly action. Arrest a Fall only prevents you from taking falling damage, it won't let you hover where you appear. Most GMs might be willing to let you do it without falling if you Fly before or after the spell.
Or, they could be trying to DDoor past a wall where they can't see beyond, and accepting the fall damage as the cost.
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Agreed. Technically, after casting DDoor you would immediately fall, as you didn't get there with a Fly action. Arrest a Fall only prevents you from taking falling damage, it won't let you hover where you appear. Most GMs might be willing to let you do it without falling if you Fly before or after the spell.
Depends: Fly says "If you’re airborne at the end of your turn and didn’t use a Fly action this round, you fall." As Dimension Door is 2 actions, you'd still have 1 action left in your round to fly before falling if the spell cast first in the round.
The level 5+ version of the spell would let you teleport to a location that you cannot currently see as long as you have been to that location previously.
It is possible that the location has changed since the last time you were there such that it no longer has a floor and instead has a drop of some unspecified length.
You couldn't do that with a lower level version of Dimension Door. Nor could you use it to teleport to the other side of a wall that you can't see past.
It might be possible to teleport yourself to a location on the opposite side of an opaque wall at a point above the ground that you could see. At which point you would fall to the ground on the opposite side of the wall. But again I would recommend Blazing Dive for this scenario as well.
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Agreed. Technically, after casting DDoor you would immediately fall, as you didn't get there with a Fly action. Arrest a Fall only prevents you from taking falling damage, it won't let you hover where you appear. Most GMs might be willing to let you do it without falling if you Fly before or after the spell.Depends: Fly says "If you’re airborne at the end of your turn and didn’t use a Fly action this round, you fall." As Dimension Door is 2 actions, you'd still have 1 action left in your round to fly before falling if the spell cast first in the round.
Fly says that, but nothing else does. The Fly rules are an exception, if you aren't actively Flying you always fall immediately. You can't Stride off an edge and punch someone twice before falling, you need to use something that lets you use actions before falling, like Sudden Leap for example.
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The Fly rules are an exception, if you aren't actively Flying you always fall immediately.
Nothing contradicts Fly though and Fly tells you you check to see if you're actively flying at the end of your turn.
Fly Speed, Core Rulebook pg. 463, says "As long as you have a fly Speed, you can use the Fly and Arrest a Fall actions", so it points you to look at those actions and they tell you when to check for falling. I don't know what would be a more specific rule than the action that is required for taking flying action when looking to figure out what you have to do to stay in flight...
Can you point to a different definition of active flight or a rule that tells you you immediately fall when you don't start your movement/actions with a Fly action? Your stance is like saying that if someone falls into water, they immediately start drowning/holding breathe as they didn't start off with a swim check... :P
And Fly requires fly speed.
I didn't think that needed saying as that was he obvious in the scenario: "Technically, after casting DDoor you would immediately fall, as you didn't get there with a Fly action" and I replied "If you’re airborne at the end of your turn and didn’t use a Fly action this round, you fall." As such, I already pointed out what you say.
The rest of the debate, from me at least, is about having a fly speed and dimension dooring: nothing prevents you from casting it and THEN using the Fly action before the end of round to say airborn: I'm debating the "as you didn't get there with a Fly action" part.
If this is about actions from someone without a fly speed, there isn't a rule about what actions you can take before or during a fall other than action means to prevent a fall. So, it's undefined. I know some have ruled that actions can be taken before a fall; for instance, a high jumping monk being able to punch/grab airborn foes and that'd be impossible if you must fall first after a non-Fly option in the air.
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You seem to be misunderstanding me and the rules. If you are in the air and you did not use your Fly speed to reach that point, you immediately fall. The rules for Fly only apply if you are actually Flying, until you use your Fly speed you are not considered Flying.
For example, lets say you have a Fly speed, you are walking along and a trap door suddenly opens beneath you. You do not get to immediately use your Fly speed to stay where you are, you just fall. You can then use Arrest a Fall to not take damage, or Grab an Edge to catch yourself, but you don't get to Fly. The same would apply to Dimension Door, as you didn't use your Fly speed to get to the point you're at.
And Monks have a feat that allows them to Jump and Strike someone without falling, it's called Flying Kick. If there's a feat that allows you to do something specific, then it's assumed it can't be done without that feat.
Yeah, there are a few different feats that basically let you jump and attack someone midair before falling. Generally speaking, without those feats it's heavily implied you fall before you can anything else, unless you are flying(in which case you wouldn't need that feat).
Ignoring what might happen if you were flying and cast dimension door to be higher in the air, it's pretty clear to me that someone walking on the ground that cast dimension door into the air will immediately start falling. They might have feather fall to make it less painful. But you wont be taking an enemy with you, so I really don't see a point.
If one is already flying, then Dimension Door should not end that, which is one reason "did not fly to a spot" is a poor rule of thumb, as opposed to "was/is already flying". The easiest example is if somebody flies into the air then Dim Doors to another aerial position on the same turn. I'd extend that to those who were flying the previous turn then Dim Doored at the beginning of the next (though they'd still have to fly before the end of their turn as normal to maintain elevation).
And for a Pit Fiend or Balor (who for different reasons can cast Dimension Door w/ 1 action), I'd even allow them, if previously flying, to Dim Door, Strike, & Fly afterward to maintain, much like they wouldn't fall if they did other actions before maintaining their flight.
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If you are in the air and you did not use your Fly speed to reach that point, you immediately fall.
Just so we're all on the same page, can you cite the line in the CRB that explains when you fall, how fast you fall, and etc?
Considering that the terminal velocity of a free fall body is around 200 feet per second would be 1200 feet per round?
You probably have enough time to stop a fall using flying if you teleport to 1 mile ahead.
(if I remembering right the Golarion gravity is similar to Earth)
(edit) I was close:
When you fall more than 5 feet, you take bludgeoning damage equal to half the distance you fell when you land. Treat falls longer than 1,500 feet as though they were 1,500 feet (750 damage). If you take any damage from a fall, you land prone. You fall about 500 feet in the first round of falling and about 1,500 feet each round thereafter.
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If one is already flying, then Dimension Door should not end that, which is one reason "did not fly to a spot" is a poor rule of thumb, as opposed to "was/is already flying".
Yea, I worded it poorly but that was exactly what I was thinking. I also mentioned that a GM may allow someone to Fly immediately after casting, which I think it reasonable since you are expecting to be in mid air, I was just trying to say that the rules in the Fly action are an exception, not the base line.
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You seem to be misunderstanding me and the rules. If you are in the air and you did not use your Fly speed to reach that point, you immediately fall. The rules for Fly only apply if you are actually Flying, until you use your Fly speed you are not considered Flying.
The best ruling I can come up with on short notice: If a player character with a fly speed is standing on the ground and deliberately teleports themselves into the air - whether through Dimension Door, Dimensional Assault, or some other ability - I would allow them to use Fly as their next action before falling. If they try to use any other action, they are going to fall first.
I may run creatures a bit differently because they are allowed to have rules suited for the creature in order for their abilities to work as described.
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You seem to be misunderstanding me and the rules. If you are in the air and you did not use your Fly speed to reach that point, you immediately fall.
Reading your reply and the relevant rules, I do not think I misunderstood either. I see nothing that prevents a creature with fly speed from taking a Fly action after dimension dooring and nothing other than the Fly action specifies when you check for falling for those with a fly speed. Again, if you have some kind of rules quote that states that creatures that that didn't start their turn flying auto fall in an override of Fly actions rules I'd be happy to see it.
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If you are in the air and you did not use your Fly speed to reach that point, you immediately fall.Just so we're all on the same page, can you cite the line in the CRB that explains when you fall, how fast you fall, and etc?
*Raises hand* I can for when and YuriP cited how fast: "If you’re airborne at the end of your turn and didn’t use a Fly action this round, you fall." So far no one else has provided another rule stating when in a turn you fall or an exception for Teleportation.
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One should think that's the normal assumption in a world that physically models our own, though.
We know that it's a quite imperfect model at best so I'm not sure we can make an assumption just because it works that way IRL. IRL, you can't take a 4' swan dive head first on a stone floor and come up unscathed but you can do so all day in the game. You can have a creature the size of a child that can carry 3 other creatures the same size and move at your normal rate without exhaustion for 8 hrs. In real life, a fireball catches normally flammable items on fire but the game by default it doesn't in game...
If we went by that part of Fly alone, you could be pushed over a cliff right after you turn, hang there for the entire round, take three (non-Fly) actions midair and only then start falling like Wile E. Coyote.
If you examine an entire round normally it makes no sense when examined through the lens of real life. Normally in a brawl you don't have everyone stop moving while one person moves and does their action then passes off the baton and another person does the same. In real life someone could fire a crossbow/gun while falling or punch someone without it being Wile E. Coyote.
It being listed under the Fly action is a pretty sure indicator that it's supposed to come into play when that action is being/has been taken rather than just anytime. A GM ruling to make it apply also when the player states the intention to still use Fly before the of the turn is certainly reasonable as well.
Seems reasonable. My point, as we are in the rules forum, is that there is no default when a fall occurs outside fly: full stop. There are good reason to allow or deny actions before a fall so I don't see a clear obvious winner.
If we went by that part of Fly alone, you could be pushed over a cliff right after you turn, hang there for the entire round, take three (non-Fly) actions midair and only then start falling like Wile E. Coyote.
The problem with going the absurdism route is that everything about PF can sound absurd if you want it to be. The mental image of someone floating in the air waiting to fall is silly, but so is the notion of being instantly transported 500 feet before any time has passed. Both of these conclusions are a result of trying to apply the abstractions of the game literally though, which isn't super helpful for either figuring out the rules or how to describe mechanics in action.
... TBH I'm not sure what the right answer is, but a few posters seemed really confident in their rulings so I was hoping they had noticed a specific passage I'd missed, because when I went looking I found the book to be weirdly silent on how falling actually works.
If you are shoved off of a cliff while it isn't your turn, I would probably rule that you fall. Though a creature with a fly speed could use arrest a fall.
If you are somehow shoved off of a cliff while it is your turn and you have actions left before the end of your turn, then you could use one of them to fly.
Yeah, falling is kind of a mess. You can't jump up and hit something out of your standing reach using a High Jump action because of the Simultaneous Actions rule that says that you have to finish High Jump (including the land in the space where your Leap ends part) before you can use any other actions such as Strike.
Which makes it seem like falling is interruptive and will happen immediately and before any other actions are allowed. But the rules don't actually say that.
If you are shoved off of a cliff while it isn't your turn, I would probably rule that you fall. Though a creature with a fly speed could use arrest a fall.
If you are somehow shoved off of a cliff while it is your turn and you have actions left before the end of your turn, then you could use one of them to fly.
Yeah, falling is kind of a mess. You can't jump up and hit something out of your standing reach using a High Jump action because of the Simultaneous Actions rule that says that you have to finish High Jump (including the land in the space where your Leap ends part) before you can use any other actions such as Strike.
Which is odd IMO: you get shoved off a cliff, you're allowed to Grab an Edge by using your "battle axe on a ledge" outside of yor turn but using that same axe after a high jump is, pardon the pun, 'up in th air' even though you're prepared for one that's iffy while you're unprepared for the one specifically allowed...
Which is odd IMO: you get shoved off a cliff, you're allowed to Grab an Edge by using your "battle axe on a ledge" outside of yor turn but using that same axe after a high jump is, pardon the pun, 'up in th air' even though you're prepared for one that's iffy while you're unprepared for the one specifically allowed...If you are shoved off of a cliff while it isn't your turn, I would probably rule that you fall. Though a creature with a fly speed could use arrest a fall.
If you are somehow shoved off of a cliff while it is your turn and you have actions left before the end of your turn, then you could use one of them to fly.
Yeah, falling is kind of a mess. You can't jump up and hit something out of your standing reach using a High Jump action because of the Simultaneous Actions rule that says that you have to finish High Jump (including the land in the space where your Leap ends part) before you can use any other actions such as Strike.
It's because class feats like Sudden Leap exist and let you jump, attack, and take no damage from falling (as long as you don't fall farther than you leapt up). It also improves how far/high you can jump.
As a GM, I might let someone expend all 3 actions to jump (using normal jumping rules), attack, and fall (taking damage). Sort of as though you could ready to attack after jumping (which you can't technically do).
Yeah, I'm trying to think of what the use case here would be.
I do it all the time in 5e with my winged tiefling wizard as it is a great way to escape danger.
Yeah, I'm trying to think of what the use case here would be.I do it all the time in 5e with my winged tiefling wizard as it is a great way to escape danger.
But if you really wanted to escape, you wouldn't dimension door into the air, you'd dimension door as far away from battle as you could.
You're not escaping, your getting out of reach of melee enemies and gliding (I assume you can't actually fly). Cause if you can fly, why would you bother.
I guess this about the only use case. That you have a means of slowly falling, but can't actually fly.
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It's because class feats like Sudden Leap exist and let you jump, attack, and take no damage from falling (as long as you don't fall farther than you leapt up). It also improves how far/high you can jump.
Sudden Leap also lets you perform three actions worth of stuff in two actions, reduces your high jump DCs, increases how far you can jump, and, as you mentioned, reduces fall damage.
So it's not 'just' enabling something, so it doesn't really make sense as 'proof' of anything one way or the other here.
I do so because it makes sense to me that you are able to grab onto something/one at the end of a jump, but swinging a weapon is different due to inertia when you lack a foothold.
The game equates the 2, IMO, by allowing you to Grab an Edge with your hands or a weapon: if I can 'Grab" a ledge at the end of my jump by wielding an axe, IMO it seems strange to draw the line at wielding the same axe in the same situation to of instead hit the ledge can't hit a creature.
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Are we seriously going to try to base the ruling on real-world physics?
Somehow a level 15 character with a +5 strength bonus, legendary athletics proficiency, and Cloud Jump can - without any magical ability - jump 30 feet into the air with an athletics roll of 2 on the d20. That person won't break their ankle on either takeoff or landing. They will also be able to grab the edge of the roof of the 3-story building that they are next to with either a two-handed axe or their bare hands. But they couldn't stab a crow perched on the roof with a rapier.
Because realism.
Yeah, I'm trying to think of what the use case here would be.I do it all the time in 5e with my winged tiefling wizard as it is a great way to escape danger.But if you really wanted to escape, you wouldn't dimension door into the air, you'd dimension door as far away from battle as you could.
You're not escaping, your getting out of reach of melee enemies and gliding (I assume you can't actually fly). Cause if you can fly, why would you bother.
I guess this about the only use case. That you have a means of slowly falling, but can't actually fly.
My character can fly, not just glide. And in 5e casting a spell doesn't trigger reactions (usually) but moving out of a foe's reach does. It's also great for escaping from a grapple, or being swallowed (these would be included in my general escaping "danger" comment). Of course in P2 you need to see the destination, so it probably wouldn't help when swallowed there, unless cast at a higher level. All of these have been done in my games, both 5e and P2.
There are no doubt more uses if one applies a bit of imagination.
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no.
we are saying purely houserules that work because they dont break immersion.
jumping up and grabbing on a monster to hold is a classic fantasy trope.
jumping up and swinging your axe to hit it, and keep jumping up and swinging, is playing mario.
raw, you fall after you jump, you don't get to make an action midair. but this feels too contrictive imo, so i'm giving my players a breathing room to do things that are generally doable alongside a jump, which includes grabbing onto stuff.
Because people IRL never jump and hit things. Or even jump and kick things.
My character can fly, not just glide. And in 5e casting a spell doesn't trigger reactions (usually) but moving out of a foe's reach does. It's also great for escaping from a grapple, or being swallowed (these would be included in my general escaping "danger" comment). Of course in P2 you need to see the destination, so it probably wouldn't help when swallowed there, unless cast at a higher level. All of these have been done in my games, both 5e and P2.
There are no doubt more uses if one applies a bit of imagination.
Then why wouldn't you just be flying out or reach to begin with?
Perhaps because casting doesn't provoke it makes things a bit different, but in PF2 there is a chance it could provoke, but if you were grappled you would have difficulty casting anyone.
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It is actually quite astonishing how much you are digging in your heels against the concept that people are quite capable of jumping and hitting things.
As a kid I have several times had to jump and swing a stick at a ball that got caught on a tree branch. No specialized training needed.
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raw, you fall after you jump, you don't get to make an action midair.
Slight correction: as far as I can tell, there is no RAW answer. The falling rules say nothing about the timing of a fall.
The only place in the CRB that I've found that has any mention of timing is the description of the Fly action (you fall at the end of your turn if you don't Fly), but many people here are dismissive of that text.
Slight correction: as far as I can tell, there is no RAW answer. The falling rules say nothing about the timing of a fall.
raw, you fall after you jump, you don't get to make an action midair.
Falling, no - there isn't much explicit rules on when that happens.
Jumping, however, lands in the territory of Simultaneous Actions. You can't jump and strike in midair. Or jump and grapple. The only reason you can jump and grab an edge is because grab an edge is a reaction that can be used interruptively during another action such as jump. Other than that, you have to finish the jump action - including landing - before you can use another action.
But the reason for that is not 'realism'.
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Yeah, I find the simultaneous action rules to be a lot more convincing here as an argument against one of these specific combinations, though I think there is also some ambiguity over when some of these activities actually 'end'
Regarding more general falling, I did a little more digging:
The Jump and Explosive Leap abilities both say you fall "after your next action" but as those are specific abilities one can consider that a unique property of them. Plus it's unclear which direction the unique property goes (i.e. depending on your interpretation of timing, it either makes you fall sooner or later than normal, so it's still ambiguous).
... Interestingly, Explosive Leap further elaborates that "as normal" you "fall at the end of your turn" to remind people you can't get around its caveat by not taking another action.
Another odd wrinkle upon further inspection, is that both Sudden Leap and Flying Kick specifically define that you fall immediately, which seems like an odd thing to specify if that's the normal state of affairs. Hardly definitive since Paizo sometimes likes redundancy, but worth at least acknowledging.
... Overall, this is kind of changing my perspective a little. It's still not defined well even a little bit, but I'm having trouble finding the definitive, completely conclusive RAW supporting immediate falls that a few posters in this thread have alluded to. Yet there seems to be a handful of sources that (admittedly implicitly rather than explicitly) reference falling at the end of your turn being normal, or immediate falls being a special circumstance.
we are saying purely houserules that work because they dont break immersion.
This is the part that gets me: For me, it's much more immersion breaking to not be able to hit something after a jump than to be able to have a hand axe break my fall and I be able to hold on to it with my character wearing full plate and a tower shield falling at terminal speed... a fall has much more force vs your grip than using your momentum from your jump/fall to stab someone.
As such, I couldn't ever agree to the verisimilitude argument on what you allow or disallow: you do you though for what's best for your group.