Clunky Monk Funk: Shields and Monk

[QuidEst]

Monk is a pretty cool class, and there's just one thing that's a little annoying.

Monks "should" grab a shield, but it feels wrong. They're unarmed fighters! The last thing I picture is them hauling around a steel shield, let alone a tower shield. But the way the game is set up, Monk gives up basically nothing to hold a shield (since they still have a hand free) and requires next to nothing to do so (even Shield Block isn't needed and you can raise even a cheap shield at any level). Grabbing a tower shield makes a lot of sense too, since the movement penalty doesn't mean as much to Monk and occasionally spending two actions for +4 AC means less when you can attack twice in the remaining actions.

It'd be nice to see the remastered Monk make this less strongly incentivized. A feature allowing them to spend an action for a +2 circumstance bonus to AC if they have both hands free, for instance. It's not appreciably stronger than Monk grabbing a shield, and it doesn't prevent somebody from doing so if it fits their concept. Or perhaps +1 AC, but it grants a reaction.

(I'm also hoping for a style or feat that works with natural weapons, but that's just personal preferences.)

[Dubious Scholar]

Eh, Monk isn't on the list of classes getting major changes. Honestly, if you want, just flavor the shield as being more of a sturdy bracer than a big old kite shield or something? Some extra armor on the off arm to help deflect incoming attacks.

Being able to use a shield is part of why Monk is on par with Champion in terms of AC. Without that the math falls behind. And they have the action economy to use a shield without worrying from the start thanks to Flurry of Blows. It would be a major hit to the class's math I think to lose it.

[QuidEst]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Being able to use a shield is part of why Monk is on par with Champion in terms of AC. Without that the math falls behind. And they have the action economy to use a shield without worrying from the start thanks to Flurry of Blows. It would be a major hit to the class's math I think to lose it.

That's my point- "people who play the Monk they see pictures of and have seen movies of" shouldn't so much worse off than people who reflavor the shield or incorporate it. I don't want Monk to be prevented from using a shield; I want the class to have something that means it isn't necessary.

[Deriven Firelion]

That would be nice, but Paizo didn't put it in the game. So I use a shield even when it looks dumb as hell. Should have made the defensive styles not require a shield, but they didn't. Shield is better than Crane Style or any of the defensive styles because of balance I guess.

[magnuskn]

Monk is in Player Core 2 and therefore I think there's a much higher chance that it gets a few more revisions, because they have half a year longer to collect player feedback. So I'd continue lobbying for obvious stuff like this.

[Deriven Firelion]

Mountain Stronghold which you can get from Mountain Stance is a shield like feat.

It would be nice a few more defensive styles were like that such as Crane Style would give that option so you weren't always locked into Mountain Stance to get the shield bonus with a feat tax.

[SuperBidi]

Count me in. The shielded-monk should be a rarity, not the base.

[Tsubutai]

Yeah, it'd be great if there was a low-level class ability along the lines of dueling parry. Something like this:

-----------------------
Monk's Parry

One action
Requirements You are unarmed or wielding a Monk weapon with the Parry trait
You can parry attacks against you with your limbs and weapons. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to AC until the start of your next turn as long as you continue to meet the requirements.
------------------------

Then change the AC bonus of Crane Stance and Crane Flutter from circumstance to status so they're not made redundant by this and shields.

For bonus points, add a level 10-12 feat that lets you have Monk's Parry constantly active.

[Secret Wizard]

This is a personal quest of mine, ever since the playtest.

It's been a long time and I got a better grasp of system mastery since then, but Shield Block as a general feat has been too tempting to pass up.

I did ask about this during an AMA, and the team mentioned that they don't think it breaks the flavor of the class because you can re-skin the "shield" as "bracers".

I cannot remember for the life of me where that AMA was though, so I haven't been able to find the post...

In any case, I think giving Monks an early game defensive reaction would be fantastic.

My preference would be to allow Monks to pick a defensive reaction from a series of options: a "block" (like in fighting games) that creates a small amount of resistance to damage, a "dodge" which gives you some AC, and a "roll" which gives you some movement.

EDIT: But I'll take anything really! I do believe it won't break the class to give it an extra push in the early levels.

[Ascalaphus]

It's a bit jarring yeah. Although with my monk I've had to choose between holding a returning javelin or a shield, while keeping the other hand free. So it's not always a thing.

I think Tsubutai's "Monk's Parry" is a good direction for a solution. Monks still get to have that kind of AC (which wasn't unbalanced, for that action cost), but why bother holding a shield for it now?

[Secret Wizard]

Ascalaphus wrote:

It's a bit jarring yeah. Although with my monk I've had to choose between holding a returning javelin or a shield, while keeping the other hand free. So it's not always a thing.

I think Tsubutai's "Monk's Parry" is a good direction for a solution. Monks still get to have that kind of AC (which wasn't unbalanced, for that action cost), but why bother holding a shield for it now?

I actually think that the best "Monk reaction", in terms of style, is the Acrobat's Dodge Away:

Dodge Away ⤦ (reaction)
Trigger You are the target of a melee attack.
Requirements You're aware of the attack and aren't flat-footed.
You use your acrobatic prowess to evade an attack, using momentum to keep yourself moving, if you choose. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to AC against the triggering attack. If the attack misses you, you can Step after the Strike. If you're a master in Acrobatics, you can move 10 feet on this Step instead of 5 feet.

I love it because:
1. It's less AC than a Shield, so if you go with a Shield, you have a good reason to do so.

2. It's only against a single attack, making Parry still valuable.

3. It gives you movement, which is the core mechanic of the class.

[dmerceless]

Just adding to the crowd here. I don't think a class should rely on reflavoring to enjoy all of their potential without breaking their most basic flavor.

I love that shield Monks are an option, but them being the one obvious choice is kinda boring — like most "one obviois choices" tend to be — and also runs against the normal current for the class's flavor.

Either add something that competes with shields defensively as said above, or give them some kind of reward for having both hands free. Maybe +1 damage/die with unarmed attacks.

[arcady]

Monk with a shield is basically Captain America.

Use it mostly for offense with a returning rune, or just the +2 AC.

[Secret Wizard]

arcady wrote:

Monk with a shield is basically Captain America.

Use it mostly for offense with a returning rune, or just the +2 AC.

How do you get proficiency?

[aobst128]

It would be nice to have an option in their feat list that competes with a shield. Perhaps +2 to AC and reflex saves would work for the cost of a class feat. Shielded monks can work as a concept sometimes like for weapon monks. Peafowl monks with bastion are pretty good sword and board-ers. Kinda lame for most other monks though.

[Deriven Firelion]

Secret Wizard wrote:

arcady wrote:

Monk with a shield is basically Captain America.

Use it mostly for offense with a returning rune, or just the +2 AC.

How do you get proficiency?

They have a throwing shield now. Meteor shield. I am going to try a Captain America monk sometime with that.

[Karneios]

Shield throw trait throws as a martial thrown weapon so you'll have to spend some feats on getting scaling proficiency with that

[Kyle_TheBuilder]

I don't see a problem. Raise a Shield or Take Cover is just mechanic. My monk player simply refluffed his Tower Shield to Kung Lao metal hat that he uses as shield during combat to stay within monk theme. As others said, you can refluff it to bracers etc. Fluff is free, rest is just mechanics.

I love the fact that Monks can be build as really great tanks with Tower Shield and Wholeness of Body while still mainating 2 Strikes per turn thanks to Flurry and overcoming resistances. With optional Flurry of Manouvers and Stand Still for tripping if there is noone else in party for that and still capitalize on 2 Strikes per turn using reaction trigger. And new Focus Point Remaster rules make them really good DPR with how often they can Ki Strike per combat now and trigger a lot of weaknesses thanks to Ki Strike feats.

One thing I really love about Monks in PF2e is that with Fighter they are the most flexibile martials to build for many different roles, from tanks to skirmishers, controllers, archers, utility, support etc. and they have so many good feats I am always sad I can't take them all :(

[QuidEst]

Is it a problem? Eh, just an annoyance. It's not the best when there's a clear best way to build a class, but more so when that doesn't fit the class presentation without reflavoring it. Right now, Mountain Stance has a sixth level feat that is effectively just saving you your off-hand and one gold. It feels unpleasantly similar to the mithril buckler trick of PF1, a non-obvious but significant gap between experienced players and new players.

Monk is getting reprinted, and this is probably still early enough for things to be tweaked a little, so I'm bringing it up. If Monk stays the same, that's fine. It'll just continue being an annoyance of the class for me, and that's fine.

[Kyle_TheBuilder]

QuidEst wrote:

Is it a problem? Eh, just an annoyance. It's not the best when there's a clear best way to build a class, but more so when that doesn't fit the class presentation without reflavoring it. Right now, Mountain Stance has a sixth level feat that is effectively just saving you your off-hand and one gold. It feels unpleasantly similar to the mithril buckler trick of PF1, a non-obvious but significant gap between experienced players and new players.

Monk is getting reprinted, and this is probably still early enough for things to be tweaked a little, so I'm bringing it up. If Monk stays the same, that's fine. It'll just continue being an annoyance of the class for me, and that's fine.

I don't really think that this is an issue for most. Monk is not forced to use Shields, but without them he would be forced to use Mountain Stance (if he would like to be tank or just increase his defenses) for AC boost, which is already a very lackluster stance and overrated by people who only see White Room. It costs 3 feats to maximize AC of it and have 1 action for +2 AC (same as Raise, which doesn't cost precious class feat, just gp for any +2 AC shield), risking crit to death on first turn because you have to enter stance, which doesn't work well with Monk low Perception. Overall it's a niche stance for people who for some reason want to dump DEX. But becasue Monk can use Shields, he can have 20 DEX and Shield and use different Stances and achieve for cost of 0 feats only 1 AC less than 3 feats Mountain Stance... giving you room to take other feats like Stand Still, WoB, FoB, MM etc instead of taxing your Mountain Stance.

I like flexibility so for me current situation is really good. If you want for some reason make high INT + high CHA Monk and want to dump DEX, Mountain Stance can compensate for that. However, for every other Monk that still starts with 16+ DEX and increase it you can still get great AC boost options thanks to ability to use Shields, which can be refluffed however you want. Once you have high enough Speed you can even move to Fortress Shield and go for +3 Raise and free more actions.

I think more options is always better and using Shields is just that: another option to consider depending on what kind of build you want to make with your Monk.

We already have niche cases where Monk taking Champion archetype can have 10 DEX and run with Full Plate Trained (having same AC as 18 DEX Monk) and still use few Stances that don't require being unarmored (like Gorilla Stance). But that's just an option, not requirement. More options > less options, even if some are worse/better than others.

[Lawrencelot]

The mechanics are not the issue. You pay some gold and you use an item in one hand, and you spend an action to increase your AC: that's all fine. The issue is purely thematic: the typical monk fantasy fights with two hands free (except those who use certain weapons, which is a different problem with its own thread). Or at least not with a shield or buckler.

So, if there was some kind of class feature given for free, with exactly the same mechanics as a shield but different fluff, that would solve it. It would be a small buff due to no gold needed to spend on a shield, but that's all. Maybe compensate it by not giving shield block as an option. So the parry option given above would work. But you don't want to rely on reflavouring when it's such a classical power fantasy.