I have a lvl 8 hunter with a tiger companion. I wanted to make it more of a ranged attacker but I'm having problems with some feats.
I am thinking on using Pack flanking to get the benefit of Coordinated shot and/or Enfilading fire. Though my GM says no due to the rule of flank only applies for melee attacks, but here's my argument.
The benefit of Pack flanking says:
When you and your companion creature have this feat, your companion creature is adjacent to you or sharing your square, and you both threaten the same opponent, you are both considered to be flanking that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.
Both enfilading fire and coordinated shot require to have an ally (my companion) threatening and flanking an opponent.
So, if my companion is by my side and both of us ARE NOT in melee with an opponent but ready to attack it, can I get the benefit of the feat to do a ranged attack with either Coordinated shot/Enfilading fire (or both at the same time, if I had them)?
My take on "threatening" is: If I am facing and ready to attack an opponent, then I am threatening it.
Please help me clarify this, as if this doesn't work as I am suggesting here, then my Hunter is definitely not good for ranged attacks, nor melee due to my stats.
to threat you have to be able to make a melee attack with a weapon that you are proficient with, and one that doesn't provoke when used (so an unarmed attack or an improvised weapon without the right feat won't do even more so having only a ranged weapon.).
if you have a melee weapon but not using it (such as an armor spike or improved unarmed strike feat etc) then you threat and the feat goes on to work (maybe. idk about the feats you didn't quote)
Coordinated shot will work (giving you a +1) if your ally is threatening without giving cover. It will not give you a +2 because it requires "another ally".
If you have pack flanking, nothing changes. You may meet the criteria to flank, and your companion would gain the bonus from flanking but your ranged attacks wouldn't (ranged attacks don't benefit from flanking). Pack flanking simply makes it easier to qualify for flanking, it's most helpful for mounted builds where you and your companion share the same space.
If you also have Enfilding fire it's a little different, in that now assuming your companion is flanking the enemy (with you thanks to Pack Flanking although not required) you can get a +2 bonus to your ranged attacks (although this is not technically flanking). You would likely also benefit from Coordinated shot, but again only at a +1.
Edit: I just saw something further in your post where you say "not in melee but ready to attack". That doesn't mean anything. Either you are in a position to attack (threatening the enemy with a melee weapon that has sufficient reach to hit them) or not. Threatening has strict requirements, and flanking requires threatening.
Simply facing an enemy is not threatening it and you don't threaten with ranged weapons (although I think there is a feat that changes that, Snap Shot may count I can't remember for sure.)
No, you must be able to directly attack a creature to be threatening it. this usually means a melee attack, there are feats for ranged attack that make them threatening.
Just facing a creature is not threatening by the rules. you must be adjacent to them, with a melee attack, or adjacent with a ranged attack and have the appropriate feats.
No offense, but I think the OP is burying the lede by talking about their potential feats and how they apply when the real issue the OP has is that they want to achieve flanking using ranged weapons. They don't seem to understanding how threatening works or how it's required for flanking.
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You only threaten creature you could hit with one of your melee attacks:I have a lvl 8 hunter with a tiger companion. I wanted to make it more of a ranged attacker but I'm having problems with some feats.
I am thinking on using Pack flanking to get the benefit of Coordinated shot and/or Enfilading fire. Though my GM says no due to the rule of flank only applies for melee attacks, but here's my argument.
The benefit of Pack flanking says:
When you and your companion creature have this feat, your companion creature is adjacent to you or sharing your square, and you both threaten the same opponent, you are both considered to be flanking that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.
Both enfilading fire and coordinated shot require to have an ally (my companion) threatening and flanking an opponent.
So, if my companion is by my side and both of us ARE NOT in melee with an opponent but ready to attack it, can I get the benefit of the feat to do a ranged attack with either Coordinated shot/Enfilading fire (or both at the same time, if I had them)?
My take on "threatening" is: If I am facing and ready to attack an opponent, then I am threatening it.
Please help me clarify this, as if this doesn't work as I am suggesting here, then my Hunter is definitely not good for ranged attacks, nor melee due to my stats.
PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 180 ...Source
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.
Reach Weapons: Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more.
If your foe isn't in reach of a melee weapon you have 'ready to go' then you don't threaten it.
Thanks to all for your comments, I was affraid (almost sure) about this, though I wanted to consult here.
Have a great day all! =)
Thanks to all for your comments, I was affraid (almost sure) about this, though I wanted to consult here.
Have a great day all! =)
Well I'd like for you to clarify what your take away here is.
Because while what your proposing can work, it requires you to be adjacent to the enemy (unless you have Improved Snap Shot and even then it only works at 10ft) for you to be threatening the enemy. And your animal companion doesn't have ranged attacks, and will need to be adjacent to the enemy (or more specifically have them in reach, if they are large size they might be able to further away if their attacks have 10ft reach).
Without you and your companion flanking (and threatening) the enemy by being next to it, neither Enfilading fire or Coordinated shot come into play. Pack flanking comes in by allowing you to ignore the normal rules of position required to achieve flanking.
So what were telling you is that this can work under specific circumstances, but I have suspicions that it's not the circumstances you think, and that you're not qualifying to get the bonuses.
Pack flanking requires you to still threaten your opponent… you cannot threaten with a ranged weapon.
To gain the flanking benefits for coordinated shot and enfilading shot you should just have your animal companion flank with an ally… neither of the feats require both flanking allies to have the feat, only one of the flankers needs the feat, and as a hunter that ally is automatically your animal companion. You could coordinate a teamwork feat for easier flanking with an ally for one for your companions normal feats BTW…
Thanks to all for your comments, I was affraid (almost sure) about this, though I wanted to consult here.
Have a great day all! =)
Well I'd like for you to clarify what your take away here is.
Because while what your proposing can work, it requires you to be adjacent to the enemy (unless you have Improved Snap Shot and even then it only works at 10ft) for you to be threatening the enemy. And your animal companion doesn't have ranged attacks, and will need to be adjacent to the enemy (or more specifically have them in reach, if they are large size they might be able to further away if their attacks have 10ft reach).
Without you and your companion flanking (and threatening) the enemy by being next to it, neither Enfilading fire or Coordinated shot come into play. Pack flanking comes in by allowing you to ignore the normal rules of position required to achieve flanking.
So what were telling you is that this can work under specific circumstances, but I have suspicions that it's not the circumstances you think, and that you're not qualifying to get the bonuses.
Well my take away here is:
1 - I now have clear that flanking applies only to melee attacks.2 - My intention was to use Pack flanking to get the benefit of enfilading or coordinated shot while been at a range greater than 5-10Ft (such as the Snap shot feat describes). But since threatening means that I need to be at melee I will not be able to get the bonuses as I was thinking.
I guess I'll stick with other feats and stuff to improve my attack and damage for ranged attacks, such as: Weapon focus, get a masterwork bow, point blank shot, rapid shot, many shot, deadly aim, use the TIGER animal focus to improve my Dex +4, gravity bow spell to increase the damage roll of my bow.
Pack flanking requires you to still threaten your opponent… you cannot threaten with a ranged weapon.
To gain the flanking benefits for coordinated shot and enfilading shot you should just have your animal companion flank with an ally… neither of the feats require both flanking allies to have the feat, only one of the flankers needs the feat, and as a hunter that ally is automatically your animal companion. You could coordinate a teamwork feat for easier flanking with an ally for one for your companions normal feats BTW…
Technically true, but if the PC has a gauntlet or armor spikes that's enough to threaten. Like that part is trivial, but also puts them in melee range were they will provoke Attacks of Opportunity for making ranged attacks. Even with Snap Shot they're in melee range.
And they don't even need to involve another ally if they're willing to settle for a +1 instead of a +2 from coordinated shot.
Although to your point, achieving being at range and having the enemy flanked is really only possible if your animal companion and another ally flank the enemy, and then they can get the full bonus from Coordinated Shot and Enfilading fire. And then Pack Flanking doesn't even matter.
But to clarify one thing, you can threaten with ranged weapons. Specifically with Snap Shot, and possibly with some other methods I'm not familiar with.
Well my take away here is:
1 - I now have clear that flanking applies only to melee attacks.
2 - My intention was to use Pack flanking to get the benefit of enfilading or coordinated shot while been at a range greater than 5-10Ft (such as the Snap shot feat describes). But since threatening means that I need to be at melee I will not be able to get the bonuses as I was thinking.
So you still don't have it quite correct.
If you had Snap Shot you threaten at 5ft. If you have Improved Snap Shot you can threaten at 10ft. This is the largest distance I know of that you can threaten with a ranged weapon. However, you also need your animal companion to threaten the same enemy for any of this to work. Some people expect to be able to ride their companion or stand next to them, but depending on your companions reach and whether or not you have pack flanking that may or may not be possible. However, Pack Flanking only factors into where you and your animal companion need to stand to achieve flanking. Let's assume your positioning meets the requirements and you have Snap Shot. You also have Coordinated Shot and Enfilading Fire. You will get a +1 from CS and a +2 from EF. You don't get the bonus from flanking because ranged attacks cannot benefit from flanking, but you can count as providing flanking because of Snap Shot. Your animal companion would get the +2 bonus from flanking. You cannot get this benefit beyond 10ft, which makes it not that great. because usually archers want to stay at range.
You could also have another ally flank with your animal companion (who shares all your teamwork feats, at least a non-archetype Hunter) and get +2 from CS instead of +1 and Pack Flanking wont do anything for you because it's not you and your animal companion attempting to flank. This method can be used at any distance (although Coordinated Shot may be difficult to qualify for at longer distances since something is more like to give cover) as long as your animal companion and another ally are flanking. However, it requires an ally to help you and lots of people don't want to be reliant on an ally to make their routine work.
Just saw gravity bow mentioned. Gravity bow is actually not a great spell. If you can use it before a combat starts it's not bad.
But you are a level 8 hunter. You have a BAB of +6. You have probably picked up precise shot via Precise Companion class feature. You should have point blank shot, and rapid shot. Possibly Many Shot or Deadly Aim.
That means you can fire up to 4 arrows in one turn. Instead of Many Shot you might have Deadly Aim. So you deal 1d8+4/5 (9.5 avg) 3 times. Or 1d8+1 (5.5 avg) 4 times. With gravity bow you can deal 2d6+4/5 (12 avg) 3 times or 2d6+1 (8 avg) 4 times.
It's hard to do a comparison without chance to hit, but that requires more info than I have handy. But gravity bow versus without gravity bow you have a 2.5 point damage change (on average). But you spend a turn dealing no damage in combat to cast the spell. Even if you hit only once on that first turn, you now need to hit nearly 4 times to make up for casting gravity bow when you could have shot the enemy. And if on that first round you hit more times it would take even more gravity bow shows to make up the damage. If combat only last 3/4 rounds, it's usually not much of a damage bonus if you look at your total damage contributed in the fight and might even be less damage than just attacking.
Just saw gravity bow mentioned. Gravity bow is actually not a great spell. If you can use it before a combat starts it's not bad.
But you are a level 8 hunter. You have a BAB of +6. You have probably picked up precise shot via Precise Companion class feature. You should have point blank shot, and rapid shot. Possibly Many Shot or Deadly Aim.
That means you can fire up to 4 arrows in one turn. Instead of Many Shot you might have Deadly Aim. So you deal 1d8+4/5 (9.5 avg) 3 times. Or 1d8+1 (5.5 avg) 4 times. With gravity bow you can deal 2d6+4/5 (12 avg) 3 times or 2d6+1 (8 avg) 4 times.
It's hard to do a comparison without chance to hit, but that requires more info than I have handy. But gravity bow versus without gravity bow you have a 2.5 point damage change (on average). But you spend a turn dealing no damage in combat to cast the spell. Even if you hit only once on that first turn, you now need to hit nearly 4 times to make up for casting gravity bow when you could have shot the enemy. And if on that first round you hit more times it would take even more gravity bow shows to make up the damage. If combat only last 3/4 rounds, it's usually not much of a damage bonus if you look at your total damage contributed in the fight and might even be less damage than just attacking.
Not that I don't get it, basically I am definitely not pursuing Pack flanking for ranged attacks, which is why I said I'd use other means to improve my Atk & Dmg.
About the snap shot, I do understand it, I just don't want to be that close to an enemy (10ft).Yes, my BAB is now +6/+1 (2 attacks), and I am going to negotiate with my GM a feat change and I think I'll be getting Rapid Shot to get an extra ranged attack, for a total of 3. (Good point about spending 1 turn casting gravity bow).
My character's class is a Catfolk, so the bow damage is 1d6 (+Str if I can get a hold on a composite bow, and increasing my Str with the bull's animal focus).
So, again, I'll stick to other means to improve Atk & Dmg.
D6 damage? Why are you using a shortbow?
Being catfolk should have nothing to do with how much damage your bow does. If you're using a medium sized longbow (as a medium creature) it should deal 1d8. It would only deal 1d6 if you were small (and catfolk are medium). You could be using a shortbow instead of a longbow, but why would you? Hunter's are proficient with longbows and there's no advantage that shortbows have over longbows.
Being catfolk should have nothing to do with how much damage your bow does. If you're using a medium sized longbow (as a medium creature) it should deal 1d8. It would only deal 1d6 if you were small (and catfolk are medium). You could be using a shortbow instead of a longbow, but why would you? Hunter's are proficient with longbows and there's no advantage that shortbows have over longbows.
Yeah, I missed that, I'll be switching to a longbow. Thanks for the reminder.
If you had Snap Shot you threaten at 5ft. If you have Improved Snap Shot you can threaten at 10ft. This is the largest distance I know of that you can threaten with a ranged weapon.
30ft… Interfering weapon… hefty +5 bonus cost though…