Kinetesist hype thread

[shroudb]

aobst128 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Air/earth stance only applies the damage boost to Air impulses though

While the passive fire aura would apply to the fire stance as well as fire blasts would benefit from it as well.

Yeah the idea is to capitalize on single target air blasts.

Leaving aside that you cannot have both steam knight and desert wind (both stances) :

Even if it did work, then you gain 1 *(lvl - 5) damage on your single blast but lose 1*lvl because you don't benefit from fire weakness on the blast and fire weakness on the stance.

So, overall less damage.

[PossibleCabbage]

shroudb wrote:

Not to mention that Steam Knight is a stance in itself, so you cannot combine any of those.

It's sort of surprising the Kineticist didn't get a capstone for "be in two stances at once" like the monk does. This version of that feat might even be more useful.

[aobst128]

shroudb wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Air/earth stance only applies the damage boost to Air impulses though

While the passive fire aura would apply to the fire stance as well as fire blasts would benefit from it as well.

Yeah the idea is to capitalize on single target air blasts.

Leaving aside that you cannot have both steam knight and desert wind (both stances) :

Even if it did work, then you gain 1 *(lvl - 5) damage on your single blast but lose 1*lvl because you don't benefit from fire weakness on the blast and fire weakness on the stance.

So, overall less damage.

It takes some stance dancing but the combined versatility is the selling point. Not necessarily the most damage. Plus, the next class options would go to fire's aura junction. A combo air/fire blast with the air/earth stance has the best single target blast damage.

[aobst128]

Since lava leap is overflow, you need to reapply a stance anyways. Might as well have more options at your disposal

[PossibleCabbage]

Yeah, my lava-leap steam knight character wants to lava leap every round (for the +2 AC) then use their final action to re-channel and bring up steam knight so I can blast steam at anybody who is nearby at the start of the next round.

The thought of "not using lava leap" and being down -2 AC just makes me sad, but I probably do need another strategy.

[aobst128]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Yeah, my lava-leap steam knight character wants to lava leap every round (for the +2 AC) then use their final action to re-channel and bring up steam knight so I can blast steam at anybody who is nearby at the start of the next round.

The thought of "not using lava leap" and being down -2 AC just makes me sad, but I probably do need another strategy.

I love the big brain kineticist tactic of jumping at people so hard they explode. This is the Elden ring ass slam build all over again.

[shroudb]

yes, but all the above do not leave you with enough actions to also blast (2 actions overflow->1 action gather+stance) until level 19, so no reason at all to try to fit a second aura with a third element, for the single target.

especially since the gains of the single target are minimal compared to you already getting bonus damage on your fire blasts due to the fire weakness aura effect.

for combine, keep in mind that you cannot combine alongside channel elements, you would need a separate action to change stance and a separata action to blast with combine.

so, overall sounds extremely action ineficient for very minimal gains, and you have to spend a lot of resources for that (1 junction to switch to air, 1 feat for combine, 1 feat for desert wind)

[aobst128]

shroudb wrote:

yes, but all the above do not leave you with enough actions to also blast (2 actions overflow->1 action gather+stance) until level 19, so no reason at all to try to fit a second aura with a third element, for the single target.

especially since the gains of the single target are minimal compared to you already getting bonus damage on your fire blasts due to the fire weakness aura effect.

for combine, keep in mind that you cannot combine alongside channel elements, you would need a separate action to change stance and a separata action to blast with combine.

so, overall sounds extremely action ineficient for very minimal gains, and you have to spend a lot of resources for that (1 junction to switch to air, 1 feat for combine, 1 feat for desert wind)

You're missing the point. Having additional options doesn't mandate you to adopt every tactic you have at once. My original point was that if you wanted to collect the traditional 4 elements, it's not bad. The only real downside is that with so many composite impulses, your reflow is less versatile.

[Dubious Scholar]

shroudb wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Air/earth stance only applies the damage boost to Air impulses though

While the passive fire aura would apply to the fire stance as well as fire blasts would benefit from it as well.

Yeah the idea is to capitalize on single target air blasts.

Leaving aside that you cannot have both steam knight and desert wind (both stances) :

Even if it did work, then you gain 1 *(lvl - 5) damage on your single blast but lose 1*lvl because you don't benefit from fire weakness on the blast and fire weakness on the stance.

So, overall less damage.

There's the feat to combine blast types that would allow you to apply fire weakness aura on your blasts still, actually. (As it would be both an air and fire blast)

[shroudb]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

shroudb wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Air/earth stance only applies the damage boost to Air impulses though

While the passive fire aura would apply to the fire stance as well as fire blasts would benefit from it as well.

Yeah the idea is to capitalize on single target air blasts.

Leaving aside that you cannot have both steam knight and desert wind (both stances) :

Even if it did work, then you gain 1 *(lvl - 5) damage on your single blast but lose 1*lvl because you don't benefit from fire weakness on the blast and fire weakness on the stance.

So, overall less damage.

There's the feat to combine blast types that would allow you to apply fire weakness aura on your blasts still, actually. (As it would be both an air and fire blast)

yes, i meantioned it in my later post, the issue with the feat is that you cannot use it on the Gather though.

so you would need an action to Gather+stance, and then another action to blast+combine, leaving no actions for a 2 action impulse.

[TheGoofyGE3K]

Hm. Am i reading Weapon Infusion correctly, in that I could use it to make a ranged weapon with the thrown property, then use Elemental Blast as 2 actions to hit someone for 1d8+7 with a strength of 16 and a con of 18 at range at level 1?

[aobst128]

TheGoofyGE3K wrote:

Hm. Am i reading Weapon Infusion correctly, in that I could use it to make a ranged weapon with the thrown property, then use Elemental Blast as 2 actions to hit someone for 1d8+7 with a strength of 16 and a con of 18 at range at level 1?

That's right.

[shroudb]

aobst128 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

yes, but all the above do not leave you with enough actions to also blast (2 actions overflow->1 action gather+stance) until level 19, so no reason at all to try to fit a second aura with a third element, for the single target.

especially since the gains of the single target are minimal compared to you already getting bonus damage on your fire blasts due to the fire weakness aura effect.

for combine, keep in mind that you cannot combine alongside channel elements, you would need a separate action to change stance and a separata action to blast with combine.

so, overall sounds extremely action ineficient for very minimal gains, and you have to spend a lot of resources for that (1 junction to switch to air, 1 feat for combine, 1 feat for desert wind)

You're missing the point. Having additional options doesn't mandate you to adopt every tactic you have at once. My original point was that if you wanted to collect the traditional 4 elements, it's not bad. The only real downside is that with so many composite impulses, your reflow is less versatile.

i'd say that the actual downside is that you are actually lowering both your single target and aoe damage by switching from steamknight to desert winds.

Let alone that you also delay your actual damage by going for Air, if you just do fire/water and grab the fire aura at 5 you already are adding damage to your single target blasts and your lava leap, and at level 6 to your steamknight stance as well.

versatility is good, but you don't actually add versatility: you are switching from damage stance to damage stance. For me versatility would be something that would give you more options, like a different stance for defence and a different for offence, or one of support and one for control, and etc.

now we are just juggling two damage vs damage stances.

Steamknight already deals 2d6+1/2level+1d6/5levels damage for a fire kineticist, you remove this damage for a +1/(level-4)

you mentioned level 9, let's look at that level:
your desert wind adds 4 damage to your blast, but you lose 2d6+4 (11) damage Steamknight, so you do less single target damage.

level 20:
desert winds will be +16 damage
Steamknight will be 4d6+10= 24 damage

[PossibleCabbage]

aobst128 wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Yeah, my lava-leap steam knight character wants to lava leap every round (for the +2 AC) then use their final action to re-channel and bring up steam knight so I can blast steam at anybody who is nearby at the start of the next round.

The thought of "not using lava leap" and being down -2 AC just makes me sad, but I probably do need another strategy.

I love the big brain kineticist tactic of jumping at people so hard they explode. This is the Elden ring ass slam build all over again.

I have to figure out if "I'm going to stand next to you and jump straight up" counts as "If you Leap over a creature and come within 10 feet" for purposes of Steam Knight. Perhaps the plan will be to move 2 squares horizontally and as many squares up as possible.

[graystone]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Yeah, my lava-leap steam knight character wants to lava leap every round (for the +2 AC) then use their final action to re-channel and bring up steam knight so I can blast steam at anybody who is nearby at the start of the next round.

The thought of "not using lava leap" and being down -2 AC just makes me sad, but I probably do need another strategy.

I love the big brain kineticist tactic of jumping at people so hard they explode. This is the Elden ring ass slam build all over again.

I have to figure out if "I'm going to stand next to you and jump straight up" counts as "If you Leap over a creature and come within 10 feet" for purposes of Steam Knight. Perhaps the plan will be to move 2 squares horizontally and as many squares up as possible.

I'd say "Leap over a creature" requires you jump over the creatures square much like a Tumble Through is through the creatures space.

[aobst128]

shroudb wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

yes, but all the above do not leave you with enough actions to also blast (2 actions overflow->1 action gather+stance) until level 19, so no reason at all to try to fit a second aura with a third element, for the single target.

especially since the gains of the single target are minimal compared to you already getting bonus damage on your fire blasts due to the fire weakness aura effect.

for combine, keep in mind that you cannot combine alongside channel elements, you would need a separate action to change stance and a separata action to blast with combine.

so, overall sounds extremely action ineficient for very minimal gains, and you have to spend a lot of resources for that (1 junction to switch to air, 1 feat for combine, 1 feat for desert wind)

You're missing the point. Having additional options doesn't mandate you to adopt every tactic you have at once. My original point was that if you wanted to collect the traditional 4 elements, it's not bad. The only real downside is that with so many composite impulses, your reflow is less versatile.

i'd say that the actual downside is that you are actually lowering both your single target and aoe damage by switching from steamknight to desert winds.

Let alone that you also delay your actual damage by going for Air, if you just do fire/water and grab the fire aura at 5 you already are adding damage to your single target blasts and your lava leap, and at level 6 to your steamknight stance as well.

versatility is good, but you don't actually add versatility: you are switching from damage stance to damage stance. For me versatility would be something that would give you more options, like a different stance for defence and a different for offence, or one of support and one for control, and etc.

now we are just juggling two damage vs damage stances.

Steamknight already deals 2d6+1/2level+1d6/5levels damage for a fire kineticist, you remove this damage for a +1/(level-4)

you mentioned level...

You're missing that lava leap is earth/fire so the steam knight combo is gonna need 3 elements by level 6. If it would make you more happy, the level 9 air option could be cyclonic ascent instead.

[shroudb]

aobst128 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

yes, but all the above do not leave you with enough actions to also blast (2 actions overflow->1 action gather+stance) until level 19, so no reason at all to try to fit a second aura with a third element, for the single target.

especially since the gains of the single target are minimal compared to you already getting bonus damage on your fire blasts due to the fire weakness aura effect.

for combine, keep in mind that you cannot combine alongside channel elements, you would need a separate action to change stance and a separata action to blast with combine.

so, overall sounds extremely action ineficient for very minimal gains, and you have to spend a lot of resources for that (1 junction to switch to air, 1 feat for combine, 1 feat for desert wind)

You're missing the point. Having additional options doesn't mandate you to adopt every tactic you have at once. My original point was that if you wanted to collect the traditional 4 elements, it's not bad. The only real downside is that with so many composite impulses, your reflow is less versatile.

i'd say that the actual downside is that you are actually lowering both your single target and aoe damage by switching from steamknight to desert winds.

Let alone that you also delay your actual damage by going for Air, if you just do fire/water and grab the fire aura at 5 you already are adding damage to your single target blasts and your lava leap, and at level 6 to your steamknight stance as well.

versatility is good, but you don't actually add versatility: you are switching from damage stance to damage stance. For me versatility would be something that would give you more options, like a different stance for defence and a different for offence, or one of support and one for control, and etc.

now we are just juggling two damage vs damage stances.

Steamknight already deals 2d6+1/2level+1d6/5levels damage for a fire kineticist, you remove this damage for a

...

i don't mind diversifying your elements to pick up more, different, stuff (like grabbing air for fly, and earth/fire for jump, and water for heals, and etc)

but the proposed Composites blasts (switching from Steamknight to Desert wind) doesn't make sense for the stated reasons (those being "more single target damage") since Steamknight already deals more single target damage. Even if you never pick up the fire aura junction and go for a full rainbow build, it's only at level 20 that Desert winds barely edges ahead of Steamknight single target (+ 16 vs 14) while Steamknight does that AoE.

So, there's no reason to pick up Desert winds, let alone waste actions switching to it.

If the plan is to go multi-elements for the added utility of having more elements, then sure, go ahead!

[aobst128]

shroudb wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

yes, but all the above do not leave you with enough actions to also blast (2 actions overflow->1 action gather+stance) until level 19, so no reason at all to try to fit a second aura with a third element, for the single target.

especially since the gains of the single target are minimal compared to you already getting bonus damage on your fire blasts due to the fire weakness aura effect.

for combine, keep in mind that you cannot combine alongside channel elements, you would need a separate action to change stance and a separata action to blast with combine.

so, overall sounds extremely action ineficient for very minimal gains, and you have to spend a lot of resources for that (1 junction to switch to air, 1 feat for combine, 1 feat for desert wind)

You're missing the point. Having additional options doesn't mandate you to adopt every tactic you have at once. My original point was that if you wanted to collect the traditional 4 elements, it's not bad. The only real downside is that with so many composite impulses, your reflow is less versatile.

i'd say that the actual downside is that you are actually lowering both your single target and aoe damage by switching from steamknight to desert winds.

Let alone that you also delay your actual damage by going for Air, if you just do fire/water and grab the fire aura at 5 you already are adding damage to your single target blasts and your lava leap, and at level 6 to your steamknight stance as well.

versatility is good, but you don't actually add versatility: you are switching from damage stance to damage stance. For me versatility would be something that would give you more options, like a different stance for defence and a different for offence, or one of support and one for control, and etc.

now we are just juggling two damage vs damage stances.

Steamknight already deals 2d6+1/2level+1d6/5levels damage for a fire kineticist, you remove

...

If you're on the frontlines with your party, there's plenty reason to not want to blast them with steam. Now the question is whether or not you can leap while you're flying lol

[shroudb]

well, you can always pick up the safe aura at level 4 (instead of having to pick up the Combine elements at level 6) and then you don't have to worry about your allies getting blasted^^

[aobst128]

Additionally, concealment in your aura is a significant defensive tool for both yourself and your party.

[shroudb]

aobst128 wrote:

Additionally, concealment in your aura is a significant defensive tool for both yourself and your party.

it's not exactly concelment within your aura unfortunately (i say unfortunately because if you see in the builds thread i do actually have a desert wind build)

it is concealment from those outside the aura to those within and from those within to those outside.

basically it acts as a veil seperating two areas. allies and enemies do not have concealment as long as they are in the same "area".

if enemies are already in your aura, you dont get concealment.

it has some fringe utility (protection against ranged attacks from outside your aura), but that's it. Not sure losing damage and actions just for that justifies spending an impulse feat and actions to switch.

[aobst128]

shroudb wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Additionally, concealment in your aura is a significant defensive tool for both yourself and your party.

it's not exactly concelment within your aura unfortunately (i say unfortunately because if you see in the builds thread i do actually have a desert wind build)

it is concealment from those outside the aura to those within and from those within to those outside.

basically it acts as a veil seperating two areas. allies and enemies do not have concealment as long as they are in the same "area".

if enemies are already in your aura, you dont get concealment.

it has some fringe utility (protection against ranged attacks from outside your aura), but that's it. Not sure losing damage and actions just for that justifies spending an impulse feat and actions to switch.

Yes I'm aware of how it works. It's gonna force enemies to enter your aura if they want to be more accurate. Takes some tactical use but it's not nothing. Depending on your order of actions and overflows, it may be more convenient to pull out desert winds since the damage will be active on the turn you use it rather than the turn after. But I have warmed up to rising hurricane to tie air into this hypothetical composite build. That's probably the better pick. Certainly not ash strider since that's basically a worse lava leap.

[Calliope5431]

Is there clarification on whether your aura turns off before or after an overflow impulse takes effect? Asking because if it's before that makes fire and its aura of vulnerability cry (since the aura shuts off right before you deal a bunch of fire damage), but that might be intentional.

[shroudb]

Calliope5431 wrote:

Is there clarification on whether your aura turns off before or after an overflow impulse takes effect? Asking because if it's before that makes fire and its aura of vulnerability cry (since the aura shuts off right before you deal a bunch of fire damage), but that might be intentional.

no.

but it has been asked and debated quite a bit in both the forums here, reddit, and i think discord.

and the concessus seems to be that the only interpatation that makes sense and is not tbtbt is that aura clses after you finish resolving the impluse that forces it to close.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think the consensus is that an overflow impulse turns off your aura after the aura has done everything it will do this turn.

Like it's off "at the point you can spend your next action" not "at the point you decide to spend the actions for the overflow impulse."

So the fire aura should apply to overflow effects, IMO.

[Ravingdork]

What happens if you lava leap whilst under a low ceiling? Does your head explode?

[Calliope5431]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the consensus is that an overflow impulse turns off your aura after the aura has done everything it will do this turn.

Like it's off "at the point you can spend your next action" not "at the point you decide to spend the actions for the overflow impulse."

So the fire aura should apply to overflow effects, IMO.

Followup, when does the level 19 feature trigger? Usable with the level 16 stance feat or no? "Start of turn" is ambiguous, as is "take an action"

[PossibleCabbage]

Ravingdork wrote:

What happens if you lava leap whilst under a low ceiling? Does your head explode?

The impulse says "you wreath yourself in molten stone" so you're probably going to do a lot of damage to the ceiling, but the melted rocks should provide a cushion much like they do on the way down.

[aobst128]

Now I'm trying to think of how best to use ash strider. Any particular synergies with it? You get some decent movement out of it and the air impulse junction I guess if you really need to close a distance.

[Xenocrat]

aobst128 wrote:

Now I'm trying to think of how best to use ash strider. Any particular synergies with it? You get some decent movement out of it and the air impulse junction I guess if you really need to close a distance.

I think it's good for moving through "tiny cracks." I assume you can use this to walk through standard doors and windows that aren't air tight or nearly so. As stride to escape difficult terrain and reactions Burning Jet at 1st level takes you further for a fire kineticist (that doesn't handle greater difficult terrain, but you can probably leap over it?). As a way to move and do damage to enemies Lightning Stride does more for an air kineticist. So I think the infiltration or escape behind a door use is the best use case.

[shroudb]

Calliope5431 wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the consensus is that an overflow impulse turns off your aura after the aura has done everything it will do this turn.

Like it's off "at the point you can spend your next action" not "at the point you decide to spend the actions for the overflow impulse."

So the fire aura should apply to overflow effects, IMO.

Followup, when does the level 19 feature trigger? Usable with the level 16 stance feat or no? "Start of turn" is ambiguous, as is "take an action"

what's ambiguous about it?

as soon as you can use your actions (so after you gain them at the start of your turn), you have to use a free action to gather if you don't have aura.

level 16 feat is usable with it, because "start of turn" is a specified phase in your turn.

but level 12 free sustain and level 16 free stance are NOT compatible with each other because for each trigger ("your turn begins" being the trigger) can only use 1 Free action

[aobst128]

Here's another water/fire interaction.

With two element infusion, water's blast junction, and fire's aura junction, your splash damage on a crit is half fire and will trigger fire weakness.

[Xenocrat]

aobst128 wrote:

Here's another water/fire interaction.

With two element infusion, water's blast junction, and fire's aura junction, your splash damage on a crit is half fire and will trigger fire weakness.

If you make it cold(water)/fire and have the fire resistance junction you can even be immune to your own crit splash on an adjacent melee target.

[Calliope5431]

shroudb wrote:

what's ambiguous about it?

as soon as you can use your actions (so after you gain them at the start of your turn), you have to use a free action to gather if you don't have aura.

level 16 feat is usable with it, because "start of turn" is a specified phase in your turn.

but level 12 free sustain and level 16 free stance are NOT compatible with each other because for each trigger ("your turn begins" being the trigger) can only use 1 Free action

The precise text is (hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting) "if your kinetic aura is inactive, you automatically use the first action of your turn to Channel Elements as a free action".

The ambiguity is in "first action of your turn." Because, as stated here:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=435

the FIRST step of taking your turn is to start your turn. That's it. That happens before anything else.

"Many things happen automatically at the start of your turn—it's a common point for tracking the passage of time for effects that last multiple rounds. At the start of each of your turns, take these steps in any order you choose:

...

You can use 1 free action or reaction with a trigger of “Your turn begins” or something similar."

It's clearly not a free action triggered by starting your turn. Because then it would conflict with any other free actions triggered by starting your turn. Instead, it's a bizarre free action triggered by...having actions? Or maybe it is a free action triggered by starting your turn, but it's written so opaquely it's impossible to tell that's what it means?

It arguably happens right after this, since that's when you actually get actions:
"The last step of starting your turn is always the same.
Regain your 3 actions and 1 reaction. If you haven't spent your reaction from your last turn, you lose it—you can't “save” actions or reactions from one turn to use during the next turn"

In which case, it's NOT the first action you took on your turn, because you took a free action already at the start of your turn, and the universe breaks down into a logical paradox.

I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, I'm just saying that the ability is written in such a way it's extremely hard to adjudicate.

[shroudb]

Calliope5431 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

what's ambiguous about it?

as soon as you can use your actions (so after you gain them at the start of your turn), you have to use a free action to gather if you don't have aura.

level 16 feat is usable with it, because "start of turn" is a specified phase in your turn.

but level 12 free sustain and level 16 free stance are NOT compatible with each other because for each trigger ("your turn begins" being the trigger) can only use 1 Free action

The precise text is (hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting) "if your kinetic aura is inactive, you automatically use the first action of your turn to Channel Elements as a free action".

The ambiguity is in "first action of your turn." Because, as stated here:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=435

the FIRST step of taking your turn is to start your turn. That's it. That happens before anything else.

"Many things happen automatically at the start of your turn—it's a common point for tracking the passage of time for effects that last multiple rounds. At the start of each of your turns, take these steps in any order you choose:

...

You can use 1 free action or reaction with a trigger of “Your turn begins” or something similar."

It's clearly not a free action triggered by starting your turn. Because then it would conflict with any other free actions triggered by starting your turn. Instead, it's a bizarre free action triggered by...having actions? Or maybe it is a free action triggered by starting your turn, but it's written so opaquely it's impossible to tell that's what it means?

It arguably happens right after this, since that's when you actually get actions:
"The last step of starting your turn is always the same.
Regain your 3 actions and 1 reaction. If you haven't spent your reaction from your last turn, you lose it—you can't “save” actions or reactions from one turn to use during the next turn"

In which case, it's NOT the first action you took on your turn, because you took a free action...

it is precisely because it says that "use the first action of your turn" that it is not breaking any rules:

you deciding on what you can spend your actions happens after the phase "beginning of your turn" it happens after you have gained actions and now you can act.

it doesn't matter if it's a free action or not, because it doesn't have a "trigger", it is a forced thing that happens when you get the chance to act, which is after the phase "beginning of your turn" has already ended and you have already got back all of your actions.

[Calliope5431]

shroudb wrote:

it is precisely because it says that "use the first action of your turn" that it is not breaking any rules:

you deciding on what you can spend your actions happens after the phase "beginning of your turn" it happens after you have gained actions and now you can act.

it doesn't matter if it's a free action or not, because it doesn't have a "trigger", it is a forced thing that happens when you get the chance to act, which is after the phase "beginning of your turn" has already ended and you have already got back all of your actions.

So your interpretation is that it happens after the phase "beginning of the kineticist's turn", right? After the trigger for imperious aura has already occurred and you're on to the final phase of starting your turn (namely gaining actions)? Just making sure I understand your interpretation.

[shroudb]

Calliope5431 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

it is precisely because it says that "use the first action of your turn" that it is not breaking any rules:

you deciding on what you can spend your actions happens after the phase "beginning of your turn" it happens after you have gained actions and now you can act.

it doesn't matter if it's a free action or not, because it doesn't have a "trigger", it is a forced thing that happens when you get the chance to act, which is after the phase "beginning of your turn" has already ended and you have already got back all of your actions.

So your interpretation is that it happens after the phase "beginning of the kineticist's turn", right? After the trigger for imperious aura has already occurred and you're on to the final phase of starting your turn (namely gaining actions)? Just making sure I understand your interpretation.

almost.

my interpetation is that it happens after the "beginning of your turn" has fully concluded, so after you gained your actions, did all your "your turn begins" stuff, did all the stuff that happens at that phase, and you are finally at the point where (if you didn't have that ability) you would start declaring the actions you would take for your turn.

now, instead of you declaring the actions, the ability pops up and says "hey, before you get to do anything, you have to do *this*" where *this* is "use a free action to activate your aura"

[Karneios]

shroudb wrote:

Calliope5431 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

it is precisely because it says that "use the first action of your turn" that it is not breaking any rules:

you deciding on what you can spend your actions happens after the phase "beginning of your turn" it happens after you have gained actions and now you can act.

it doesn't matter if it's a free action or not, because it doesn't have a "trigger", it is a forced thing that happens when you get the chance to act, which is after the phase "beginning of your turn" has already ended and you have already got back all of your actions.

So your interpretation is that it happens after the phase "beginning of the kineticist's turn", right? After the trigger for imperious aura has already occurred and you're on to the final phase of starting your turn (namely gaining actions)? Just making sure I understand your interpretation.

almost.

my interpetation is that it happens after the "beginning of your turn" has fully concluded, so after you gained your actions, did all your "your turn begins" stuff, did all the stuff that happens at that phase, and you are finally at the point where (if you didn't have that ability) you would start declaring the actions you would take for your turn.

now, instead of you declaring the actions, the ability pops up and says "hey, before you get to do anything, you have to do *this*" where *this* is "use a free action to activate your aura"

which would mean that the level 19 channel elements is not usable with the level 16 stance feat, because the stance trigger happens before you can have your aura turned back on, they don't conflict in the free action rules but you can't use both in the same turn because if you don't have your aura active you can't have a stance impulse, can with the level 12 sustain feat though since you don't need your aura active to sustain

[Ravingdork]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

What happens if you lava leap whilst under a low ceiling? Does your head explode?

The impulse says "you wreath yourself in molten stone" so you're probably going to do a lot of damage to the ceiling, but the melted rocks should provide a cushion much like they do on the way down.

So you got "SPLAT!" instead? LOL.

[Calliope5431]

shroudb wrote:

almost.

my interpetation is that it happens after the "beginning of your turn" has fully concluded, so after you gained your actions, did all your "your turn begins" stuff, did all the stuff that happens at that phase, and you are finally at the point where (if you didn't have that ability) you would start declaring the actions you would take for your turn.

now, instead of you declaring the actions, the ability pops up and says "hey, before you get to do anything, you have to do *this*" where *this* is "use a free action to activate your aura"

That's my interpretation too, yeah. Which is why I asked the question - it seems like there's not a great way to use imperious aura once you hit kineticist 19. Unless you want to lose the free blast/stance kineticist 19 gives you. Ideally what you'd want is for it to trigger the other way around - so that you could:

1. Start your turn not channeling, get a free channel, blast
2. Use imperious aura to activate a stance
3. Something involving overflow.
4. Repeat next round

But the ordering just doesn't work. Kineticist 19 really really changes how the entire class plays.

[Ravingdork]

Some things that tripped me up initially:

- Overflow impulses shut off your kinetic aura. I made a 16th-level character, only to realize that nearly all of my impulses had Overflow. Oopsie.

- You cannot use your impulses when your kinetic aura is inactive.

- Ongoing impulse effects that began when your kinetic aura was active, generally persist even when your kinetic aura ceases.

- You can only take advantage of a single "At the start of your turn" triggering ability each round. No free sustain AND free stance activation in the same round (not even with Effortless Impulse and Imperious Aura).

- You can only have a single stance active at one time.

Again and again I had cool armchair theories and combos fly out the window because of these class limitations. Take care to heed all the rules and keep your kineticist expectations to a practical level.

[shroudb]

Karneios wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Calliope5431 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

it is precisely because it says that "use the first action of your turn" that it is not breaking any rules:

you deciding on what you can spend your actions happens after the phase "beginning of your turn" it happens after you have gained actions and now you can act.

it doesn't matter if it's a free action or not, because it doesn't have a "trigger", it is a forced thing that happens when you get the chance to act, which is after the phase "beginning of your turn" has already ended and you have already got back all of your actions.

So your interpretation is that it happens after the phase "beginning of the kineticist's turn", right? After the trigger for imperious aura has already occurred and you're on to the final phase of starting your turn (namely gaining actions)? Just making sure I understand your interpretation.

almost.

my interpetation is that it happens after the "beginning of your turn" has fully concluded, so after you gained your actions, did all your "your turn begins" stuff, did all the stuff that happens at that phase, and you are finally at the point where (if you didn't have that ability) you would start declaring the actions you would take for your turn.

now, instead of you declaring the actions, the ability pops up and says "hey, before you get to do anything, you have to do *this*" where *this* is "use a free action to activate your aura"

which would mean that the level 19 channel elements is not usable with the level 16 stance feat, because the stance trigger happens before you can have your aura turned back on, they don't conflict in the free action rules but you can't use both in the same turn because if you don't have your aura active you can't have a stance impulse, can with the level 12 sustain feat though since you don't need your aura active to sustain

i guess so, yeah.

this discussion has made me realize that the other interpetation (that it happens at the very beginning of your turn before you even regain your actions) is also a way that some people may read it... but then it would again conflict with both the level 12 and level 16 feat since now it's a free action that happens when your turn begins.

so that would be even worse since now it would block 2 feats instead of 1.

at least this way, all of the feats have their place (even if limited):

take as an example a build that cares about their aura for defence but uses their stance for offence and doesn't use that much sustain abilities (like a build with desert wind):

you could do something like "free action activate stance->quicken blast->2 action overflow->gather aura+blast" so you get the bonus from your stance on your first blast and your overflow and you still have your aura up for stuff like difficult terrain from Earth junction, or fire resistance from Water, or enemy penalties from Metal.

now, if you have to use your reaction for DR/Reposition/etc and terminate your aura next turn you begin with the level 19 feature for a free gather+stance, and if your reaction is not popped you instead use your level 16 feat for a free action stance, beginning the cycle again.

[Temperans]

If it says "the first action of your turn" then it does not work if you spent a free action "at the beginning of your turn". The reason being that after you do the free action at the beginning of your turn, any other action is no longer the "first action".

Regardless, I feel that the order of opperation is wrong. Like the whole thing is being convoluted just so that people cannot shot a blast and automatically get their aura.

[aobst128]

Man, I love these stances. Thermal nimbus, Kindle inner flames, and steam knight all compete for a pure fire build. With enough martials, kindle inner flames allowing your party to trigger your aura junction would be great for bosses. Flurry rangers would have a field day having easy access to fire weakness.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think Effortless Impulse and Final Gate are supposed to work together.

Effortless Impulse is a free action that has the trigger "your turn begins".

Final Gate says "If your kinetic aura is inactive, you automatically use the first action of your turn to Channel Elements as a free action."

So the sequence is:
Your turn starts, triggering Effortless Impulse.
You use Effortless Impulse as a free action.
You have your first action to spend.
Final Gate checks if your aura is inactive.
If it's inactive, you channel as a free action.
Your turn continues with 3 actions.

I think Final Gate specifically has the sort of awkward phrasing "use the first action of your turn as a free action" in order to not have the same trigger as Effortless Impulse.

[Squiggit]

I agree with PossibleCabbage here.

Though that does in turn make Final Gate work really poorly with Imperious Aura.

[PossibleCabbage]

Imperious Aura seems more for "if you're regularly going to start your turn with your aura active, and you have several stance impulses and want to cycle between them." Like switching out of steam knight if there's nobody nearby to blast with steam.

[Ravingdork]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think Final Gate specifically has the sort of awkward phrasing "use the first action of your turn as a free action" in order to not have the same trigger as Effortless Impulse.

I'm afraid it still doesn't work according to the (current) RAW of the Core Rulebook. Maybe Remaster will make it work?

Step 1: Start Your Turn
Many things happen automatically at the start of your turn—it's a common point for tracking the passage of time for effects that last multiple rounds. At the start of each of your turns, take these steps in any order you choose:
...
- You can use 1 free action or reaction with a trigger of “Your turn begins” or something similar.

"Or something similar" pretty much means near-phrasing might as well be the same phrasing.

[Squiggit]

But Final Gate doesn't have a trigger of "your turn begins" that's the point.

[PossibleCabbage]

Yeah, Final Gate's trigger is decidedly not "your turn begins" it's "you are going to spend your first action" which is different from "your turn begins" in that you could have spent a free action triggered by your turn beginning before you are about to spend your first action."