Hi all.
I've just started planning a character for the Quest for the Frozen Flame adventure path , and my first thought is either a Monk or a Fighter taking the Druid archetype to get Wild Shape. I'm leaning toward Monk but obviously I see the benefits of Fighter. I had a couple of questions, but I'm sure I'll have more questions about this character so I figured I'd just make this a general advice thread for this character if that's ok with everyone.
So my first question is about Wild Shape and DEX builds. I can use either the listed number or "my unarmed attack bonus", would this allow me to make a DEX-build and use that bonus for claw/bite/whatever attacks?
The second question is about what attacks can be made in animal form. Is there any way to use Flurry with claws/etc? What about Attack of Opportunity if I went with Fighter?
Totally fine if they don't work, I just thought it'd be interesting if they did and it can't hurt to check.
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So my first question (which I think has been answered but i wajted to check) is about Wild Shape and DEX builds. I can use either the listed number or "my unarmed attack bonus", would this allow me to make a DEX-build and use that bonus for claw/bite/whatever attacks?
Yes.
The second question is about what attacks can be made in animal form. Is there any way to use Flurry with claws/etc? What about Attack of Opportunity if I went with Fighter?
Ok, so the claw/bite/etc are the only Strikes you can use. They are Unarmed Attacks. Flurry of Blows, which can be use any Unarmed Attack for its Subordinate Action Strikes, works fine with those. Attack of Opportunity, which can use any melee Strike as the Subordinate Action, works fine with those.
What you couldn't do is something like take Tiger Stance and use its Tiger Claw Unarmed Attack while in a form. Or use the Tiger Slash feat that only works with that specific Unarmed Attack with your wild shape claws.
I think that in both cases, the argument that it does work is stronger than the argument that it doesn't work.
So my first question is about Wild Shape and DEX builds. I can use either the listed number or "my unarmed attack bonus", would this allow me to make a DEX-build and use that bonus for claw/bite/whatever attacks?
I have to assume that the developers did not forget that the 'fist' attack has finesse - as do a majority of other unarmed attacks. So if they wanted to restrict the bonus override ability to just be the character's strength-based unarmed attack bonus, they should have said so.
Also note that Wild Shape will increase your character's unarmed attack bonus by +2 if you are using that instead.
The second question is about what attacks can be made in animal form. Is there any way to use Flurry with claws/etc? What about Attack of Opportunity if I went with Fighter?
The Polymorph trait is quite specific on what it prevents you from using. Your class features and feats aren't listed.
Edit: HammerJack is right about a class feature or feat that gives you a Strike or unarmed attack to use. You could still use Tiger Stance to increase your step distance, but you couldn't use the Strike that it provides.
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So my first question (which I think has been answered but i wajted to check) is about Wild Shape and DEX builds. I can use either the listed number or "my unarmed attack bonus", would this allow me to make a DEX-build and use that bonus for claw/bite/whatever attacks?
It actually depends on the form. Most of the battle forms use Strength based attacks, so you would have to calculate your Unarmed attack bonus using Strength to see if it's higher. Remember that Unarmed attacks aren't inherently Dex based, they still need to have the Finesse trait.
Any form that has Dex based attacks, like Aerial Form, can use your Dex if it's higher, but you can still use your Str to qualify (in that case you would lower it if Enfeebled, as normal).
Cool.
So I could enter Tiger Stance and get the speed bonus, but I couldn't use the Tiger Claw attacks since my form doesn't allow it. This is fine as Tiger Stance doesn't prevent me from using my animal form attacks. Meanwhile I could use Crane Stance, and I would even get the +1 Circumstance bonus to AC and the additional jump distance, but I wouldn't be allowed to make Crane Wing attacks and I wouldn't be able to make any other strikes , effectively rendering me unable to attack.
This is good to know, I might have to read carefully what I can and can't do.
Flurry of Blows: This one actually surprises me. I thought I'd at least need a feat to fully-of-bear, but hey there you go. And after rereading it I can't argue the point, that seems totally by the rules, whether intended or not. Thanks people.
Finesse Animals: This one looks like its been argued a bit on the forums. I kinda read it the same way as Cordell Kitner - there doesn't seem to be a default to Finesse, Finesse is a trait that appears on certain weapons and attacks. However, just to throw a wrench into the gears people have said there is apparently language to suggest that you do default to this:
Table 6–6: Unarmed Attacks lists the statistics for an unarmed attack with a fist, though you’ll usually use the same statistics for attacks made with any other parts of your body. Certain ancestry feats, class features, and spells give access to special, more powerful unarmed attacks. Details for those unarmed attacks are provided in the abilities that grant them.
Now I'm not sure that's proof, but its at least an argument. Also a quick search didn't actually lead me to Table 6-6, so I don't know how relevant it really is to the Finesse trait. Either way, I'm happy for people to present arguments , if it isn't a solved issue I'll probably just refer my GM to this page and let him make a ruling. Some of the threads I found got pretty heated though, so I'd rather not get that involved.
Thanks guys, much appreciated. It seems like making a wild-shaping Monk is slightly easier than I thought =)
Now for a new question:
Does the Monk's bonus speed work in Animal Form?
Pretty straightforward question, but I'm not 100% sure of the answer. The speed bonus doesn't seem to have a type, so does that mean it wouldn't qualify as a "circumstance bonus or status bonus" and I wouldn't get it?
I guess I could ask a similar question about Weapon Expertise?
Does the Monk's Weapon Expertise work with Animal Form?
You’ve learned how to inflict greater injuries with the weapons you know best. You deal 2 additional damage with weapons and unarmed attacks in which you are an expert.
Seems like the same question asked about 2 separate mechanics, but hey, worth asking.
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Finesse Animals: This one looks like its been argued a bit on the forums. I kinda read it the same way as Cordell Kitner - there doesn't seem to be a default to Finesse, Finesse is a trait that appears on certain weapons and attacks. However, just to throw a wrench into the gears people have said there is apparently language to suggest that you do default to this:
Now I'm not sure that's proof, but its at least an argument. Also a quick search didn't actually lead me to Table 6-6, so I don't know how relevant...Table 6–6: Unarmed Attacks lists the statistics for an unarmed attack with a fist, though you’ll usually use the same statistics for attacks made with any other parts of your body. Certain ancestry feats, class features, and spells give access to special, more powerful unarmed attacks. Details for those unarmed attacks are provided in the abilities that grant them.
No that doesn't work. While it's true almost anyone could make a fist attack, or something analog to a fist attack (kick, headbutt), that doesn't mean that all other unarmed strikes get the traits of fist attacks.
And battle form states "One or more attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can Strike with.", so unlike most people, you no longer have access to those generic fist Strikes.
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Now for a new question:
Does the Monk's bonus speed work in Animal Form?
Pretty straightforward question, but I'm not 100% sure of the answer. The speed bonus doesn't seem to have a type, so does that mean it wouldn't qualify as a "circumstance bonus or status bonus" and I wouldn't get it?
The monk's Incredible Movement is a status bonus, so it's on the allowlist for battle forms. (It also means monks don't care for Longstrider spells.)
Monk speed bonus is a status bonus
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Does the Monk's Weapon Expertise work with Animal Form?
You’ve learned how to inflict greater injuries with the weapons you know best. You deal 2 additional damage with weapons and unarmed attacks in which you are an expert.Seems like the same question asked about 2 separate mechanics, but hey, worth asking.
"f you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
Weapon Expertise isn't any of those things, so no.
Yeah, I think Cordell and I are both right on the RAW - even though we come to different conclusions on it.
Either you use your own unarmed attacks to calculate your bonus and then check if it is higher than the attack bonus given by the form, or you use the attack from the form as though it was an attack that you have and calculate your bonus using that attack and see if it is higher than what the spell gives you.
I don't see much of a balance problem with allowing the higher dex-based unarmed bonus from a dex build on a wild shape druid. And you would already have pre-calculated your unarmed attack bonuses for 'fist' and the like. So I prefer that one.
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Monk's Incredible Movement is a status bonus.
You move like the wind. You gain a +10-foot status bonus to your Speed whenever you’re not wearing armor. The bonus increases by 5 feet for every 4 levels you have beyond 3rd.
I'm not sure on the Specialization damage bonus. I am thinking that it is not going to be added. Because it isn't a bonus of the proper type and the form spell's stats already account for additional damage like that internally. Adding more damage on top of that seems a bit much.
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You add your monk's bonus speed to the speed of the battle form? Interesting.
At least one designer has said battle forms benefit from weapon specialization as it is untyped additional damage that stacks as long as the type of attack you're using is covered under weapon specialization.
There is no official ruling on this, but I tend to allow weapon specialization damage to stack for unarmed strikes in battle form as it's additional damage that stacks with everything as long as the attack fits within the parameters of the ability.
Be nice to get a clear answer, but to me it makes sense weapon specialization works with battle form attacks. Why wouldn't you be good with your battle form attacks?
Monk speed bonus is a status bonus
Derp, I even checked that, apparently I'm just not very good at reading =P
Thanks all.
At least one designer has said battle forms benefit from weapon specialization as it is untyped additional damage that stacks as long as the type of attack you're using is covered under weapon specialization.
Do you have a quote for that? I'm not too worried if I can't use it but my general plan is to send my GM to this thread eventually and let him decide what I do and don't get, so if there's a quote to back that up then great. If not no biggie, it won't be the end of the world to miss out on 2 damage.
No <Finesse with Animal Form attacks> doesn't work. While it's true almost anyone could make a fist attack, or something analog to a fist attack (kick, headbutt), that doesn't mean that all other unarmed strikes get the traits of fist attacks.
Honestly that's how I read it too, but I saw some dissent reading it and thought I'd check with the community.
Yeah, I think Cordell and I are both right on the RAW - even though we come to different conclusions on it.
Either you use your own unarmed attacks to calculate your bonus and then check if it is higher than the attack bonus given by the form, or you use the attack from the form as though it was an attack that you have and calculate your bonus using that attack and see if it is higher than what the spell gives you.
I don't see much of a balance problem with allowing the higher dex-based unarmed bonus from a dex build on a wild shape druid. And you would already have pre-calculated your unarmed attack bonuses for 'fist' and the like. So I prefer that one.
Agreed. But not everyone agrees on it. Some insist on Strength.
I'm not sure on the Specialization damage bonus. I am thinking that it is not going to be added. Because it isn't a bonus of the proper type and the form spell's stats already account for additional damage like that internally. Adding more damage on top of that seems a bit much.
The problem is the damage equation is not defined properly. Whether Additional Damage is a Bonus or just some Extra is as clear as mud. One is allowed the other isn't. Then there is additional damage of a different type like say from a Flaming Rune on your hand wraps. I allow it all to add but plenty of people don't. The devs have declined to comment further.
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No <Finesse with Animal Form attacks> doesn't work. While it's true almost anyone could make a fist attack, or something analog to a fist attack (kick, headbutt), that doesn't mean that all other unarmed strikes get the traits of fist attacks.Honestly that's how I read it too, but I saw some dissent reading it and thought I'd check with the community.
He is wrong to say it doesn't work. The correct response is it is debated as the terms are not well defined. Your GM will go one way or another.
Ok cool, so Not decided. I guess from a balance perspective it doesn't really matter. Whether you use your STR or DEX for the attack roll you'll have a fixed damage roll, a fixed AC and a fixed Athletics roll so its not like STR or DEX are really adding much besides that attack roll. And they'd both have the same cap anyway. I'm happy to send my GM this way and see what he says.
Speaking of damage rolls ...
So I realised I've been misunderstanding how Power Attack and similar abilities work . If I understand it correctly now: Alevel 1 Fighter with a Maul deals 1d12 damage. If he has Power Attack that goes up to 2d12 damage. When he gets a +1 Striking weapon his Power Attack goes up to 3d12. When he hits level 10 that increases to 4d12.
So in a similar vein, a Monk with Dragon Stance deals 1d10 damage. If she uses the ONE INCH PUNCH feat that would increase to 2d10 or 3dd10 damage. With a +1 Striking Handwrap that would increase to 3d10 or 4d10. At level 10 that would increase to 4d10 or 6d10 damage.
Ok now for the question:
If I have a 10th level character who Wild Shapes into an APE who deals 4d8+7 damage , how mych damage would they do on a Power Attacks, and how much do they do on the they do for One Inch Punch? Is the 4d8 damage counted as 1 dice here or 2 or 4?
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4d8 plus two dice is 6d8.
The concept of counting some bundle of multiple dice as a die does not exist in this system. When Power Attack says add two ice, you add 2d8. If a 3 action One Inch Punch says to add 4 dice, you add 4d8.
Monk speed bonus is a status bonusDerp, I even checked that, apparently I'm just not very good at reading =P
Thanks all.
At least one designer has said battle forms benefit from weapon specialization as it is untyped additional damage that stacks as long as the type of attack you're using is covered under weapon specialization.Do you have a quote for that? I'm not too worried if I can't use it but my general plan is to send my GM to this thread eventually and let him decide what I do and don't get, so if there's a quote to back that up then great. If not no biggie, it won't be the end of the world to miss out on 2 damage.
No <Finesse with Animal Form attacks> doesn't work. While it's true almost anyone could make a fist attack, or something analog to a fist attack (kick, headbutt), that doesn't mean that all other unarmed strikes get the traits of fist attacks.Honestly that's how I read it too, but I saw some dissent reading it and thought I'd check with the community.
I don't have the quote. I think it was Mark Seifter that replied. Someone else probably has the quote somewhere. He seemed to think of weapon specialization as additional damage that added to everything as long as it was an attack that you had proficiency in. Battle Forms use unarmed attack, so weapon specialization applies.
I think it is similar with barbarian rage damage. That's another one that hasn't been clarified I believe.
4d8 plus two dice is 6d8.
The concept of counting some bundle of multiple dice as a die does not exist in this system. When Power Attack says add two ice, you add 2d8. If a 3 action One Inch Punch says to add 4 dice, you add 4d8.
Huh, that seems weird to me.
First, the double damage dice at spell level 5 seemed like giving a striking rune, but maybe that's me reading into things. I guess it did lower the static damage when they god the double dice.
So if I wild shape into a Tiger I have a Jaw attack for 4d6 damage or a claw attack for 2d10 damage . If I use One Inch Punch with the Jaw attack it goes to 8d6 damage, but if I use it with the Claw attack it goes to 6d10 damage.
Yes. Adding 4 dice is adding 4 dice, regardless of how many you started with.
I don't have the quote. I think it was Mark Seifter that replied. Someone else probably has the quote somewhere.
Which is exactly why I am of the opinion: FAQ or it didn't happen.
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So if I wild shape into a Tiger (Cat) I have a Jaw attack for 4d6 (~14) damage or a claw attack for 2d10 (~11) damage (+x). If I use One Inch Punch with the Jaw attack it goes to 8d6 (~28) damage, but if I use it with the Claw attack it goes to 6d10 (~33) damage.
Yeah. Similar happens if you cast Magic Weapon or similar on weapons with different die sizes. The amount of damage added by the spell is a bit different.
Ok, cool.
Hey if that's how it works then that's how it works. Thanks for the clarification =)
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He is wrong to say it doesn't work. The correct response is it is debated as the terms are not well defined. Your GM will go one way or another.No <Finesse with Animal Form attacks> doesn't work. While it's true almost anyone could make a fist attack, or something analog to a fist attack (kick, headbutt), that doesn't mean that all other unarmed strikes get the traits of fist attacks.Honestly that's how I read it too, but I saw some dissent reading it and thought I'd check with the community.
Anything can be "debated" if you find someone argumentative who digs in at an unreasonable position.
This one is pretty clear. You don't blend the traits of different unarmed strikes. Your claw and bite strikes don't become finesse because you might be able to make a fist strike.
Also, battle forms say that those specific strikes are the only strikes you can make, so you can't actually make fist strikes anymore.
The rules do seem pretty straight-forward here. Attack modifiers are calculated based on Strength, but if you're using a finesse weapon you can use Dexterity instead.
Since you're not using a finesse weapon, your Dexterity isn't relevant.
The fact that some spells call out the ability to use Dexterity as a special feature of that particular spell seems further indicative that it's not meant to be something you can do all the time at-will, not that we really need further indications.
This seems less like a case of ambiguous rules and more like a case of wishful thinking.
There is a huge amount of ambiguity here. The term attack modifier isn't even really defined in the game. Yet you are so sure of your answer.
Allow me to step in before this Finesse argument progresses any further.
You've all presented your arguments, and whether or not it works for me is up to my GM to decide. I appreciate that there are still people debating this, but we have enough info in this thread that we don't need the debate to continue any further. I do appreciate the information from both sides, but I'm happy to just ask my GM how he feels and roll with that.
Thanks.
Ok, a new question :
So I know I can't cast spells while in Animal Form but I assume regular spells with a duration would continue to effect me if cast beforehand. I'm just curious about this particular interaction regarding Polymorph.
If I cast WIND JUMP on myself and then cast ANIMAL FORM on myself do I keep the fly speed? Can I turn myself into a flying Bear?
I feel like this should work unless there is a particular Polymprph interaction that I don't know about .
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Ok, a new question :
So I know I can't cast spells while in Animal Form but I assume regular spells with a duration would continue to effect me if cast beforehand. I'm just curious about this particular interaction regarding Polymorph.
If I cast WIND JUMP on myself and then cast ANIMAL FORM on myself do I keep the fly speed? Can I turn myself into a flying Bear?
I feel like this should work unless there is a particular Polymprph interaction that I don't know about .
You can use them as you stated. Nothing in the casting of Wind Jump interferes with Animal Form or any polymorph effect. The only stipulation is casting Wind Jump first which you already seem to know.
Spells with durations that do not have the polymorph trait work just fine while being under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Ok cool.
And yes I know I wasn't quoting table 6-6, I just found some references to 6-6 online but couldn't find the table itself.
Thank you for finding the actual quote, much appreciated.
So forget Finesse attacks while Wild Shaped, apparently you get to add the item bonus from Handwraps ...
If you are using your own full bonus then you first determine if you're going to use that bonus. If you do you take the whole thing, and that will also include the item bonus. At that point, once you have determined that you'e using your bonus, that is when you add the +2 bonus from Wild Shape for using your own bonus.
Has that ever been clarified FAQ'd or clarified? Coz that seems like a pretty huge bonus to me. Like, the character I'm planning couod go STR or DEX, but either way will pump both stats fsirly high. Adding the Item bonus is actually a bigger boost to the DEX-build than adding Finesse would be.
I understand that this is a contentious topic, but I don't think we're going to solve it here. I'd appreciate it if we left that debate behind, there's more than enough information here for my GM to make a ruling.
If you want to keep talking about it by all means start a thread.
So forget Finesse attacks while Wild Shaped, apparently you get to add the item bonus from Handwraps ...
If you are using your own full bonus then you first determine if you're going to use that bonus. If you do you take the whole thing, and that will also include the item bonus. At that point, once you have determined that you'e using your bonus, that is when you add the +2 bonus from Wild Shape for using your own bonus.Has that ever been clarified FAQ'd or clarified? Coz that seems like a pretty huge bonus to me. Like, the character I'm planning couod go STR or DEX, but either way will pump both stats fsirly high. Adding the Item bonus is actually a bigger boost to the DEX-build than adding Finesse would be.
it's never been clarified but I'm not sure what would be clarified. Like yeah item bonuses are part of your attack modifier, that's just part of how you calculate your attack modifier.
it's never been clarified but I'm not sure what would be clarified.
Wild shape says "only status and circumstance bonuses" yet here we are adding an Item bonus. All good, it sounds like everyone's on board with that, so no further clarification needed.
Ok, a new question: How does the Assurance feat interact with Wild-Shape?
ANIMAL FORM gives gives static bonuses to Athletics. Would you be able to use that score for Assurance? Or not since it's not a proficiency bonus? Would you instead be able to use your non-wild-shaped proficiency bonus?
it's never been clarified but I'm not sure what would be clarified.Wild shape says "only status and circumstance bonuses" yet here we are adding an Item bonus. All good, it sounds like everyone's on board with that, so no further clarification needed.
Ok, a new question: How does the Assurance feat interact with Wild-Shape?
ANIMAL FORM gives gives static bonuses to Athletics. Would you be able to use that score for Assurance? Or not since it's not a proficiency bonus? Would you instead be able to use your non-wild-shaped proficiency bonus?
The number in the battle form is described as a modifier. This seems to be enough for Assurance to exclude it. The Druid can still use assurance with their normal athletics though providing it is higher. The sticking point is modifier is not really described in the rules so we just have to assume its normal natural language usage. But exactly what it is made up of is not totally clear. There is no way to split out the profociency bonus out of it without making several assumptions.
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it's never been clarified but I'm not sure what would be clarified.Wild shape says "only status and circumstance bonuses" yet here we are adding an Item bonus. All good, it sounds like everyone's on board with that, so no further clarification needed.
It's not controversial because you're not adjusting the special statistics of the battle form with your item bonus. You're totaling up a different score and checking if it would be better than the battle form bonus.
Ok, a new question: How does the Assurance feat interact with Wild-Shape?
ANIMAL FORM gives gives static bonuses to Athletics. Would you be able to use that score for Assurance? Or not since it's not a proficiency bonus? Would you instead be able to use your non-wild-shaped proficiency bonus?
If you use Assurance you use the formula given in Assurance and nothing else. It doesn't let you add battle form bonus in the same way that Assurance doesn't let you add your ability scores in your normal form.
Assurance appears designed to let you auto-succeed only on tasks that are pretty easy for your level. You can't boost your bonus for it in any way except by leveling up and becoming more trained. What you can try to change though is the DC you're trying to meet - by debuffing the enemy (Intimidate etc.)
Hi all.
I just wanted to thank everyone who participated in this thread. I've learned a lot and my GM found this helpful as well. Much appreciated.
I might come back with more questions if we run into something we haven't thought of, but for now I'm all ready to play.
Cheers =)
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Thank you all for the help. Unfortunately, literally 30 seconds before we hit level 2 my character was killed by a few unlucky rolls. Unlucky for me =(
The good (?) news is that since I hadn't got to level 2 I hadn't actually done any of my Druid stuff, which means that's all still on the table. I've decided to build a new character that still uses Wild Shape, but I'm going with Fighter as a backup plan.
TLDR: I'm making a level 2 FIGHTER with the DRUID ARCHETYPE (using FREE ARCHETYPE and ANCESTRY PARAGON rules) to be a WILD SHAPE Fighter
I guess my main questions are about which feats work with Animal Form and which don't. Assuming I'm in say Bear form , which of the following do you think would work: DOUBLE SLICE, SNAGGING STRIKE, COMBAT GRAB, DRAGGING STRIKE, DUELING PARRY, TWIN PARRY, DUELING RIPOSTE, CUT FROM THE AIR, DISARMING TWIST or TWIN RIPOSTE? Later feats don't really matter since our campaign only goes to 10, but feel free to discuss them.
I'm also probably going HUMAN, but DWARF has slightly better stats. I really like the Human feats though , and with Ancestry Paragon rules that makes a big difference. We're probably getting into Advice territory here rather than Rules, but I'm less familiar with Dwarf feats, so if there's anything cool I'm open to it.
Diving completely into advice territory, does anyone have any other possible archetypes that could pair well with a Wild Shape Fighter? I've heard some rumblings about Wrestler or Martial Artist, but I'm not sure I get the nuances, and there could be other fun things to try. I'm focused on being the best Wild Shape combatant I can be, though I'd also like to focus somewhat on debuffing enemies and assisting allies if possible .
Also if you think this is diverting too much from the Rules Forum I'm happy to make another thread in the Advice forum. I figured it's easier to keep it all in one place, but maybe it's easier for everyone else if I separate this into 2 threads?
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I guess my main questions are about which feats work with Animal Form and which don't. Assuming I'm in say Bear form , which of the following do you think would work: DOUBLE SLICE, SNAGGING STRIKE, COMBAT GRAB, DRAGGING STRIKE, DUELING PARRY, TWIN PARRY, DUELING RIPOSTE, CUT FROM THE AIR, DISARMING TWIST or TWIN RIPOSTE? Later feats don't really matter since our campaign only goes to 10, but feel free to discuss them.
The key rule for each of these is the same: unarmed strikes are not weapons. (Sounds obvious when you think about it, but it's explicitly a rule too.) So any feat that requires that you're wielding a weapon cannot be used with unarmed strikes.
Some few of them might only require that you're wielding the weapon, but not actually require you to use the weapon for the feat. But that won't fly either, because the definition of wielding is holding it in such a way that you can use it. And in animal form, you can only make Strikes with the specific unarmed strikes it gives you. So you can't be wielding anything else because you can't use anything else.
So for example, double slice requires you to use two weapons. Can't do that with unarmed strikes. Snagging Strike requires you to have a hand free. In bear form, you'll have plenty of free hands so this one works.
As for general advice: those one-hand-free fighter feats are pretty good. Snagging Strike is just quietly good if you're going to Strike people anyway; might as well make your next Strike easier. Combat Grab, same thing, just on second and third attacks (since it has the press trait). Intimidating Strike, same thing and it's good if your enemy was going to be flat-footed anyway, for example if you already have a flank.
Those feats are also good because they make life easier for the rest of your party. It lets the fighter be the "can opener" that gets the first hit in against tough enemies (using your superior high to hit) and then makes them easier to hit for the rest of the party.
I'd also add Knockdown and Dazing Blow as possible feats. Since you'll be fighting empty-handed, you easily meet the requirements for knockdown. And Dazing Blow's requirements are easier to achieve if you get to grab enemies for free with Combat Grab.
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I would go Ape. Because their attacks are Fist and Fist is part of the Brawling weapon group.
You just need your GM to agree with it.
What level will you reach in the end ? Superbidi (a poster on the forums) has a monster of a build that has the highest DPR at very high levels.
IIRC it starts with Fighter MC Druid, then Martial Artist to boost your proficiency with all natural attacks, then MC Alchemist for Feral Mutagen.
So for example, double slice requires you to use two weapons. Can't do that with unarmed strikes. Snagging Strike requires you to have a hand free. In bear form, you'll have plenty of free hands so this one works.
Awesome, thanks. Exactly what I was looking for.
Those feats are also good because they make life easier for the rest of your party. It lets the fighter be the "can opener" that gets the first hit in against tough enemies (using your superior high to hit) and then makes them easier to hit for the rest of the party.
Exactly what I'm going for, and feats like Intimidating/Knockdown also carry a debuff on enemy offensive capabilities as well.
I'd also add Knockdown and Dazing Blow as possible feats.
Oh yeah I just didn't include those because I knew they were usable, less questions about hand-shenanigans ... although I now see that Knockdown actually does require a free hand, so should have been on my list =P
Good to know it works though.
What level will you reach in the end ? Superbidi (a poster on the forums) has a monster of a build that has the highest DPR at very high levels.
Level 10. We're playing QUEST FOR THE FROZEN FLAME, so there are also some stipulations about not having much access to metal armour and weapons, that kind of thing .
IIRC it starts with Fighter MC Druid, then Martial Artist to boost your proficiency with all natural attacks, then MC Alchemist for Feral Mutagen.
I don't think I need to boost proficiency with unarmed attacks, since I can use the Fighter bonus and fists are part of the Brawling weapon group. I can just use my own unarmed attack bonus in place of the standard bonus granted by Animal Form.
Honestly I don't think I need any more bonuses to attack rolls, I'll already be +4 compared to most martial classes, meaning my 2nd attack with an agile weapon will be at the same bonus as everyone else's primary attack. It's more about what kind of versatility I might be able to get.
I'll check out Suoerbidi though, thanks for the tip =)
I don't think I need to boost proficiency with unarmed attacks, since I can use the Fighter bonus and fists are part of the Brawling weapon group. I can just use my own unarmed attack bonus in place of the standard bonus granted by Animal Form.
You run into a problem here because the attacks given to you by forms do not disclose a weapon group, so your expertise in brawling doesn't help you. That's why martial artist is useful.
You run into a problem here because the attacks given to you by forms do not disclose a weapon group, so your expertise in brawling doesn't help you. That's why martial artist is useful.
Do you mean Weapon Specialization? Yeah I won't get the +3 to damage, I think I'm ok with that. But for proficiency bonuses to hit I don't need the Animal Form to be a particular weapon group since I'm replacing the spell's attack bonuses with my unarmed attack bonuses, and they only care that my fists belong to a weapon group before I Wildshape.
If I decide I need more damage I can look into Martial Artist. I likely won't be looking at this till at least level 6 since I'll obviously be taking the Druid archetype first, but it's good to know what I get out of it.
Your unarmed attack bonus with weapons that don't belong to a weapon group don't get full fighter proficiency.
So that's why taking Martial Artist is suggested for this build.