PF2R Drow

[Trixleby]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Yeah, so the Deep Gnomes are just a subset of one heritage of Gnomes as a whole.

I don't see why the Duergar couldn't be likewise a Dwarf heritage and I've long been mystified as to why there's so much resistance to making Drow an elf heritage.

Doesn't bother me any. Although I am not sure if there is currently a good Dwarven heritage that represents Duergar. Maybe the one that grants fire resistance. Live close to lava or something idk.

[Temperans]

In the case of umbral gnome vs deep gnome the two are different, but the difference is so small that its not meaningful.

In the case of both Duergar and Drow the differences are much deeper. Its not just that they are from a different region, but that both of those ancestries got their power from evil deities. That relationship is what give those ancestries their magic.

If an elf born in a deep area is just born as a Duergar/Drow then the whole "we took power from evil gods" becomes moot. Not only watering down what made those ancestries cool, but also removing what makes the darklands such a scary place: The existence and active involvement of evil gods.

Biologically its like saying that a Tiger is the same as a Lion, yeah they are both felines. But no they are not the same ancestry, they don't share the same culture, and they don't share the same skills or habbits.

[Temperans]

Trixleby wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Yeah, so the Deep Gnomes are just a subset of one heritage of Gnomes as a whole.

I don't see why the Duergar couldn't be likewise a Dwarf heritage and I've long been mystified as to why there's so much resistance to making Drow an elf heritage.

Doesn't bother me any. Although I am not sure if there is currently a good Dwarven heritage that represents Duergar. Maybe the one that grants fire resistance. Live close to lava or something idk.

Strong Blooded, and only because it gives resistance vs poison. A true duergar is immune to poison outright.

[Perpdepog]

My main reason for wanting drow and similar to be ancestries rather than heritages is because not doing so makes things like playing a drow tiefling/nephilim much clunkier. You'd then have to bolt an option to the first level ancestry feat that allows you to take a heritage or something along those lines if you wanted to pick up drow-specific ancestry feats. You can remove that necessity, make all of the drow's feats open for any elf to take, but that really impinges on the drow's identity in my opinion.

It also makes any delineation of drow along things like cultural or caste lines--feats for the protean-worshiping drow, feats for drow nobility, feats for drow steeped in fleshwarping, etc--look awkward because they are all tied to a specific heritage for a specific ancestry.

Also, drow just feel different enough to be their own thing to me. They were elves before, but by now they've splintered off and become their own people with their own way of doing things. Hobgoblins are in the same boat, after all.

[Jonathan Morgantini]

Removed MORE off topic or harassing posts.

[Karmagator]

Some news: the darklands panel will apparently answer the drow question

[keftiu]

James Jacobs on the Into the Darklands stream just now: “We’re not gonna be doing much with the Drow going forward.”

Has talked about how the OGL situation means a ton of the Underdark/Darklands classics are now off-limits, and how the final volume of Sky King’s Tomb is going to offer some insight into how the Darklands will be going forward. There was mention of some old canon being presented now as deliberate misinformation by a brave Pathfinder who first explored the Darklands for the surface, meant to conceal some terrible threat.

EDIT: Cavern Elves, now “Ayindilar,” will get some love. Duergar have been renamed to Hryngar and reworked some; new ancestral magic, have a society driven by paranoia and resentment. Svirfneblins are just Umbral Gnomes, now named Drathnelar in-setting. Sekmin are thriving in a number of Sekamina fortress-cities, plotting a surface invasion.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

keftiu wrote:

James Jacobs on the Into the Darklands stream just now: “We’re not gonna be doing much with the Drow going forward.”

Has talked about how the OGL situation means a ton of the Underdark/Darklands classics are now off-limits, and how the final volume of Sky King’s Tomb is going to offer some insight into how the Darklands will be going forward. There was mention of some old canon being presented now as deliberate misinformation by a brave Pathfinder who first explored the Darklands for the surface, meant to conceal some terrible threat.

Eando, you magnificent person!!

[TriOmegaZero]

With how little they did so far, I don't find it much of a change to say that.

[MMCJawa]

keftiu wrote:

James Jacobs on the Into the Darklands stream just now: “We’re not gonna be doing much with the Drow going forward.”

Has talked about how the OGL situation means a ton of the Underdark/Darklands classics are now off-limits, and how the final volume of Sky King’s Tomb is going to offer some insight into how the Darklands will be going forward. There was mention of some old canon being presented now as deliberate misinformation by a brave Pathfinder who first explored the Darklands for the surface, meant to conceal some terrible threat.

Looking forward to a more detailed description of this panel. I intended to watch it but got stuck reviewing a (very bad) horror movie for a film festival :(

[Perpdepog]

That's got me worried. There are lots of Darklands things I like; I dig spooky underground settings. Here's hoping they can keep a lot of the fun with a fresh coat of paint while building their own stuff.

[PossibleCabbage]

I have to figure the reason that Pathfinder never really did much with Drow to begin with was that they weren't really Paizo's toys to begin with. So this doesn't feel like a huge shift.

There's still all sorts of analogues of surface people down there (bunch of folks went underground because of earthfall). It's just that the Sekmin are now the "big bad underground empire" rather than other people's elves.

[MMCJawa]

Also, while not Drow, was there any mention of Intellect Devourers or Neothelids?

[Ezekieru]

Copying/pasting the names JJ typed out in the Twitch chat:

Cavern Elf = Ayindilar
Duergar = Hryngar
Umbral Gnomes = Drathnelar

[Karmagator]

TL:DR - as we kind of expected, drow are too close to DnD to safely disentangle. Therefore, drow are not going to be featured anymore. Instead, cavern elves aka Ayindilar are going to be the new "underground elves", but they are going to not be a direct replacement, as they seem to be actually be quite good.

The direct replacement for drow as the main organized antagonist in the darklands will be the serpenfolk. They are also taking over the grand underground cities for the most part.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

The other thing that's and easily explainable and plausible solution is things like planar travel, Gates, that sort of thing that allowed an OOC (Out Of Context) invasion of some things.

[keftiu]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I have to figure the reason that Pathfinder never really did much with Drow to begin with was that they weren't really Paizo's toys to begin with. So this doesn't feel like a huge shift.

There's still all sorts of analogues of surface people down there (bunch of folks went underground because of earthfall). It's just that the Sekmin are now the "big bad underground empire" rather than other people's elves.

I’ll also say: this certainly feels like an excuse to say “yes, Drow are mechanically just Elves,” and use Cavern Elf, Mixed Ancestry (Fleshwarp), and Nephilim (Ganzi, Tiefling) for the Heritage.

[Karmagator]

The stream really is worth checking out, it is very interesting. Hryngar are basically a pyramid scheme mafia of a society and their innate spell is sigil - to mark literally everything they made.

[PossibleCabbage]

My appeal to Paizo is please canonize "Hringar" as the plural and the singular (like "moose" or "sheep".)

Since "Hringar" sounds like a Nordic language word, and "-ar" is a plural suffix in Nordic languages. "Hringars" sets my teeth on edge.

[BookBird]

I think the changes to the Drow are interesting. I'm sure a lot of people will be sad to see them go in the way they did, but I've never been too attached to Pathfinder Drow. Inevitably some lore will be messed with, but I feel like the way they did it is good enough where it won't be a problem. Will also free up some space for Fleshwarps to hang around down there.

Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to Sekmin taking over the "villain" lore for the Darklands, I've always found them interesting, and that might mean there will be more appearances of them making life difficult for our pcs. It also makes me somewhat hopeful they'll be playable one day, but not too much.

[keftiu]

There’s also been some talk in this stream about how the role of “messed-up former Elves rising from the Darklands to be scary” can just go to outright Fleshwarps now.

[PossibleCabbage]

The thing that never made sense to me was why Drow were the big empire in the underground to begin with. It seemed like it should have been the Dwarven people, since they're native to the place and are going to have the easiest time adapting to the conditions in the Darklands.

[Unicore]

Perpdepog wrote:

That's got me worried. There are lots of Darklands things I like; I dig spooky underground settings. Here's hoping they can keep a lot of the fun with a fresh coat of paint while building their own stuff.

I think a good take away from this Paizo con is that remaster is not about a new coat of paint. It is about taking out things that probably belong to someone else and replacing them with something that belongs in Golarion.

[MMCJawa]

The comment about the elf fleshwarps coming up from the Darklands has now become my head cannon on what happened to the Drow. They don't exist because something ELSE got to them first and did unspeakable things to them

[BookBird]

keftiu wrote:

There’s also been some talk in this stream about how the role of “messed-up former Elves rising from the Darklands to be scary” can just go to outright Fleshwarps now.

I really like that idea. Especially now with the changes to the mixed heritages you can make a Fleshwarp that takes Elf feats as well (or any kind of Fleshwarp really, like the Mana Wastes Gnolls).

[YuriP]

Perpdepog wrote:

That's got me worried. There are lots of Darklands things I like; I dig spooky underground settings. Here's hoping they can keep a lot of the fun with a fresh coat of paint while building their own stuff.

I am more excited about new opportunities opening up than saddened by lost ones.

[James Jacobs]

Perpdepog wrote:

That's got me worried. There are lots of Darklands things I like; I dig spooky underground settings. Here's hoping they can keep a lot of the fun with a fresh coat of paint while building their own stuff.

That's the goal! The Darklands is one of my favorite parts of the setting, and one that I did a lot of the initial work on creating, and I'm intending/hoping to be involved in bringing it into the new ORC/Remastered Pathfinder. My philosophy is to change as little as possible. The drow thing is the big one.

[James Jacobs]

MMCJawa wrote:

Also, while not Drow, was there any mention of Intellect Devourers or Neothelids?

We didn't have time for that. BUT

Intellect Devourers are still there; we're doubling down on them being aliens and part of the Dominion of the Black, but the city of Ilvarandin is still in the setting, and thus these "corpse thieves" or "body snatchers" are still there. They get a new name too that's not a "humans call them this": Xoarian. (Implying that they come from a distant planet in the Dark Tapestry called Xoar.)

Neothelids are 100% ogl, and kinda sketchy ones at that since they snuck in through a crack into the Psionics SRD. Going forward, we'll be recontextualizing the "Giant psychic worm monsters" of Denebrum and the Darklands as a more powerful variant of the seugathi.

[Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti]

Will duergar information be in the Highhelm book?

[Grankless]

Not surprised at this outcome, excited by more sekmin and fleshwarps stuff. I have a funny thing to tell my AV players who've already had to think about drow, haha

[MMCJawa]

James Jacobs wrote:

MMCJawa wrote:

Also, while not Drow, was there any mention of Intellect Devourers or Neothelids?

We didn't have time for that. BUT

Intellect Devourers are still there; we're doubling down on them being aliens and part of the Dominion of the Black, but the city of Ilvarandin is still in the setting, and thus these "corpse thieves" or "body snatchers" are still there. They get a new name too that's not a "humans call them this": Xoarian. (Implying that they come from a distant planet in the Dark Tapestry called Xoar.)

Neothelids are 100% ogl, and kinda sketchy ones at that since they snuck in through a crack into the Psionics SRD. Going forward, we'll be recontextualizing the "Giant psychic worm monsters" of Denebrum and the Darklands as a more powerful variant of the seugathi.

YAY

I know everyone was worried about Drow, but Ilvarandin is my favorite Darklands location and so "Intellect Devourers" they were the ones I was most concerned with. Love the new name as well!

Glad "Neothelids" are also sticking around...figured that they just needed a name change, given DnD never really did much with them anyway, and Seugathi are a Paizo creation IIRC.

[Cydeth]

This... is what I expected. I'm gonna finish up my Abomination Vaults campaign, then find a new system. Just the last straw for me. Have fun, everyone.

[James Jacobs]

MMCJawa wrote:

I know everyone was worried about Drow, but Ilvarandin is my favorite Darklands location and so "Intellect Devourers" they were the ones I was most concerned with. Love the new name as well!

Glad "Neothelids" are also sticking around...figured that they just needed a name change, given DnD never really did much with them anyway, and Seugathi are a Paizo creation IIRC.

The word "neothelid" is NOT sticking around. Haven't really put thought into what to call the biggie-size seugathi yet (seugathi are 100% a creation of Paizo; I invented them in Into the Darklands back in the day when I wanted a creepy slimy monster with powerful mind powers to do things in the Darklands).

And if you're a fan of Ilvarandin... make sure to check out Pathfinder 200 when it comes around!

[James Jacobs]

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Will duergar information be in the Highhelm book?

My understanding is that starting with Highhelm and Sky King's Tomb, you'll see the word "hryngar" when you would have expected to see the word "duergar."

[The Thing From Another World]

Understand why it was done because unfortunately whether we like it or not they need to divorcé themselves entirely of any OGL elements.

For the purpose of any rule questions etc I will refer to them as the Drow as the new name for the time being does not roll of the tongue as easily as Drow.

[The Raven Black]

MMCJawa wrote:

The comment about the elf fleshwarps coming up from the Darklands has now become my head cannon on what happened to the Drow. They don't exist because something ELSE got to them first and did unspeakable things to them

Actually the Drows turned out to all be Sekmin infiltrators who were so good that they all fooled each other into believing they were Drows.

Except for those who were actually Veiled Masters obviously.

[James Jacobs]

The Thing From Another World wrote:

Understand why it was done because unfortunately whether we like it or not they need to divorcé themselves entirely of any OGL elements.

For the purpose of any rule questions etc I will refer to them as the Drow as the new name for the time being does not roll of the tongue as easily as Drow.

Fair enough... but to remind folks, the ayindialr are NOT going to fill the same niche as drow did. They'll be their own thing; more nomadic elves in the upper reaches of Nar-Voth who have small communities and are friendly and "chaotic good" to use the classic tropes.

[Perpdepog]

James Jacobs wrote:

Perpdepog wrote:

That's got me worried. There are lots of Darklands things I like; I dig spooky underground settings. Here's hoping they can keep a lot of the fun with a fresh coat of paint while building their own stuff.

That's the goal! The Darklands is one of my favorite parts of the setting, and one that I did a lot of the initial work on creating, and I'm intending/hoping to be involved in bringing it into the new ORC/Remastered Pathfinder. My philosophy is to change as little as possible. The drow thing is the big one.

Awesome to hear! I'm a big fan of everything you guys have put into it and glad it'll be getting some love thanks to the remaster. Looking forward to seeing more!

James Jacobs wrote:

We didn't have time for that. BUT

Intellect Devourers are still there; we're doubling down on them being aliens and part of the Dominion of the Black, but the city of Ilvarandin is still in the setting, and thus these "corpse thieves" or "body snatchers" are still there. They get a new name too that's not a "humans call them this": Xoarian. (Implying that they come from a distant planet in the Dark Tapestry called Xoar.)

Neothelids are 100% ogl, and kinda sketchy ones at that since they snuck in through a crack into the Psionics SRD. Going forward, we'll be recontextualizing the "Giant psychic worm monsters" of Denebrum and the Darklands as a more powerful variant of the seugathi.

Like this. The big psychic worms are, for whatever reason, my favorite bit of the Darklands; I love places like Denebrum and the Vaults of Orv. I love how alien they are while technically being so close to home. Also, what about folding the Conqueror Worm into the seugathi family? They're all big, psychic worms, and conqueror worms are super cool.

Also, has anyone got any info on the Caligni, and what might be happening to them if anything?

[CorvusMask]

There is something I ended up really liking about Sekmin replacing drow:

Drow as villains didn't actually really do much. They were dominant culture in Sekamina, they were doing great, so they didn't have motivation to conquer world or get revenge of elves ro such, they were just down there having good time and if you stumbled on them then "oh no".

Sekmin have on otherhand strong motivation to go upstairs and conquer the surface world replacing mammals with snek :D

[PossibleCabbage]

I just realized, is the term "Aboleth" for the Algollthu Masters now gone?

[CorvusMask]

(I like idea that drow just located their hedonistic demon party to elsewhere)

[Perpdepog]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I just realized, is the term "Aboleth" for the Algollthu Masters now gone?

I'd guess so, but alghollthu has been showing up more and more to replace that word in published material anyway. It's largely vestigial at this point.

[BookBird]

James Jacobs wrote:

MMCJawa wrote:

I know everyone was worried about Drow, but Ilvarandin is my favorite Darklands location and so "Intellect Devourers" they were the ones I was most concerned with. Love the new name as well!

Glad "Neothelids" are also sticking around...figured that they just needed a name change, given DnD never really did much with them anyway, and Seugathi are a Paizo creation IIRC.

The word "neothelid" is NOT sticking around. Haven't really put thought into what to call the biggie-size seugathi yet (seugathi are 100% a creation of Paizo; I invented them in Into the Darklands back in the day when I wanted a creepy slimy monster with powerful mind powers to do things in the Darklands).

And if you're a fan of Ilvarandin... make sure to check out Pathfinder 200 when it comes around!

Might be a stupid question, but will the former Neothelid (and by extension current Seugathi) remain spawn of Shub-Niggurath in the ORC, or will that part of their lore change to accommodate their change of classification?

[PossibleCabbage]

Perpdepog wrote:

Also, has anyone got any info on the Caligni, and what might be happening to them if anything?

They said in the stream that the Caligni are still there, which tracks since I think those are original to Pathfinder. They're named after a pre-earthfall city in Azlant.

[Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti]

James Jacobs wrote:

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

Will duergar information be in the Highhelm book?

My understanding is that starting with Highhelm and Sky King's Tomb, you'll see the word "hryngar" when you would have expected to see the word "duergar."

Will they be a plauable ancestry?

[Wei Ji the Learner]

CorvusMask wrote:

(I like idea that drow just located their hedonistic demon party to elsewhere)

Perhaps even... The Warp?

Just. As. Planned.

[Henro]

None of my players have ever seen a Drow on Golarion, though they probably assume they're down there somewhere. If I ever go downstairs for an adventure I think I'll make the Drow a long-dead civilization the surface dwellers still have legends about. Might make for an excellent setup and "oh s*$$" moment for whatever it was that did them in.

[PossibleCabbage]

Henro wrote:

None of my players have ever seen a Drow on Golarion, though they probably assume they're down there somewhere. If I ever go downstairs for an adventure I think I'll make the Drow a long-dead civilization the surface dwellers still have legends about. Might make for an excellent setup and "oh s!~!" moment for whatever it was that did them in.

I think "how important you think the Drow were" varies wildly based on what Pathfinder adventures you played. Like it's entirely plausible that someone could have played Pathfinder for a decade and simply not ran, read, or played any of the adventures in which Drow feature significantly. There's also at least one person for whom their lack of inclusion is a deal-breaker.

[Perpdepog]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Perpdepog wrote:

Also, has anyone got any info on the Caligni, and what might be happening to them if anything?

They said in the stream that the Caligni are still there, which tracks since I think those are original to Pathfinder. They're named after a pre-earthfall city in Azlant.

That's excellent news. I was concerned because I believe the Caligni were based off of dark folk, and I believe those were OGL.

[bugleyman]

Can't say I'm surprised about the Drow. I do find the "in-world" explanation of the retcons to be clever.