]I edited my post after looking this up. I'm in physical pain from reading the loreMost likely it goes back to Norse cosmology where svartálfar ("black elves"), also called myrkálfar are beings who dwell in Svartalfheim. Written in the Prose Edda about the black elves: "... the dark elves however live down below the ground. ... [and] are blacker than pitch."
There are also mentions there of Dökkálfar ("Dark Elves") and Ljósálfar ("Light Elves") are two contrasting types of elves; the dark elves dwell within the earth and have a dark complexion, while the light elves live in Álfheimr, and are "fairer than the sun to look at".
So the roots of dark elves that live underground predates any modern issues related to dark skin.
This is a pre-tolkien concept from nordic myths where elves are more like fairies and less humanoid centric then they are before Tolkien's fantastic stories.
Tolkien himself never wrote about underground elves just Moriquendi, elves that never reach the light but in more a cosmological sense of world creation than currently underground concept.
D&D Drow concept is more linked to the original nordic origin of underground elves them adapted to D&D concept of elves as just a humanoid ancestry linked to fairies.
Golarion, whose origin of the elves is alien, basically made an elven version of the Caligni as a side effect of the elves who not could/wanted to escape from Golarion during Earthfall and took shelter underground.
Coming back to today. The problem is the word Drow. Regardless of its etymology, it is no longer safe to use. Instead Dark Elves or any related word could be used instead. The other point is their cultural aspect that may or may not change due the removal os 9 alignments concept that maybe change their society a little.
About skin color aspect this already solved when Paizo changed their skin color in order to prevent to any racist association to their traditional evil nature.
Mechanically drows are still elves just adapted to undergroud and with a different and more evil culture.
Would Deep Elves be viable, or is it IP?
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Since this got brought up, yes. I'm on the panel and will be talking about some adjustments that will be made to the Darklands—this area, more than pretty much any other region in Golarion, is significantly impacted by the fact that so many of the things that live there have deep ties to the OGL and D&D. It's a region we haven't really done much significant with since the pre-Pathfinder RPG softcover book that panel is named after, "Into the Darklands" (we NEVER did a big book about this location for the actual Pathfinder RPG, other than something like Darklands Revisited, which is less about the region so it doesn't really count for what I'm talking about here).
I fully expect what we've got planned for the Darklands to disappoint some people and excite other people, but again... more than any other location on Golarion, this is a part of our setting that needs an update.
There's plenty new we've brought to the underground, like serpentfolk and seugathis and urdefhans and munavris, and some stuff from public domain like gugs and morlocks, but there's a LOT going on down there that, as a result of it being developed when we were using D&D as our rulebook, remains very D&D if that makes sense.
The "Into the Darklands" panel will be a lot more about our upcoming Sky King's Tomb Adventure Path and the Highhelm book (both of which represent the closest and biggest thing we've done in a long while to playing in the Darklands), but the time to recontextualize is near. Some things will stay the same. Some things are going to significantly change. I'm actually pretty nervous about how everyone's gonna react to some of it... but it HAS TO HAPPEN.
We'll have more to reveal in a few...
Can't wait to see what you all have in store! I'm sure we won't be disappointed.
It's a region we haven't really done much significant with since the pre-Pathfinder RPG softcover book that panel is named after, "Into the Darklands" (we NEVER did a big book about this location for the actual Pathfinder RPG, other than something like Darklands Revisited, which is less about the region so it doesn't really count for what I'm talking about here).I should have expected this was the case. Drow in particular seem like a footnote in the setting. Something I would easily forget was ever there if it disappeared
They feature heavily in at least two of 2e's APs, one of which is probably the most popular, I wouldn't describe that as a footnote. In 2e splats/rules so far sure, but they have featured plenty in the narrative.
IMO (and some will disagree) but Cavern Elves adequately fill the space Drow took up with none of the egregious baggage.
Drow are not totally normal elves that fled Golarion during Earthfall, came back, and took up residence in caves, which then influenced their biology resulting in Darkvision. Most of the people interested in having a Drow Ancestry would not be even slightly satisfied by that outcome just like they haven't been since 2e's launch. There's no reason Drow can't be just as amazing and different as Ekujae, Mualijae, Vourinoi, etc.
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Given some much needed changes, I think Drow offer a very good opportunity to tell certain kinds of stories, so I hope they do not fade into the background. Get rid of the mandatory matriarchy (which Paizo have already done, because that is a terrible story element) and introduce political factions with different takes on the drow world view and you have an opportunity. They don't even have to be related to elves and you can just change the name.
Beyond being a potentially fascinating look at a society build on little more than "might makes right" and "iron sharpens iron", they also make for a good, (sort of) organized antagonistic force.
If we are lucky, this could lead to War for the Crown 2.0, which I would love!
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I'm just not entirely sure about what "they're elves" gets you in the context of "underground society with political factions". Like what stories could you tell about the Drow that you couldn't about the Caligni that aren't references to other stories people told about the Drow?
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I'm just not entirely sure about what "they're elves" gets you in the context of "underground society with political factions". Like what stories could you tell about the Drow that you couldn't about the Caligni that aren't references to other stories people told about the Drow?
I specifically said that the fact they're elves is essentially irrelevant and can be changed freely. There are several angles to be had here - demon worship, possible influence by Rovagug, the good old "ancient monsters" (i.e. old drow that are really scary) and the political intrigue angle is already well established.
I admittedly know very little about the caligni except the whole "they are kinda evil" and "explode into light on death" things, so my views are to be taken with a load of salt. But from what I get at a glance, they are much less threatening and warlike than the drow. More thieves and malicious tricksters with the occasional bout of kidnapping than anything actually menacing. They also look rather silly in their tattered clothes and weird bandages. Not an aesthetic I like. So apart from the "gods that have long gone silent" angle, they really don't offer anything either as far as I can tell.
And it's not like we have to get rid of all the stories of/about the drow. Just make some cosmetic cuts and add a few things to make them more than just "we are evil elves and also a matriarchy".
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I'm just not entirely sure about what "they're elves" gets you in the context of "underground society with political factions". Like what stories could you tell about the Drow that you couldn't about the Caligni that aren't references to other stories people told about the Drow?
Any story built upon their history.
A conflict between surface elves and caligni wouldn't hold the same weight as a conflict between surface elves and Drow.Edit: BUT if the devs wanted to include Drow in the Caligni banner, I wouldn't be terribly upset, so long as their history and unique characteristics were preserved.
But Caligni Elf wouldn't be the WORST fate for the Drow making conundrum.
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I'm just not entirely sure about what "they're elves" gets you in the context of "underground society with political factions". Like what stories could you tell about the Drow that you couldn't about the Caligni that aren't references to other stories people told about the Drow?
The Drow have a unique backstory and position in the lore. It’s like when people say “why do you want Sekmin when there’s Nagaji now” - there’s more to both of them than being snakes.
A House Misraria assassin whose favored demon lord began whispering about redemption, a Protean-touched Sorcerer trying to shake up their society, a runaway struggling to find a place in surface Kyonin… there’s three characters off the cuff whose core relies on being Drow, rather than a generic Darklander.
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Drow as a name is fine...as I have mentioned elsewhere, it's an alternative spelling variant of the term Trow, which are a type of short troll-like fairy from the Shetland and Orkney Islands. Other than elves in general owing there origin to fairy lore and the fact that Trow live within hills (at least during the day), there isn't really much connection with the actual DnD Drow. I think that is where you run into trouble, as I think in the grand scheme of things Pathfinder Drow are not a whole lot different from the classic Drow, and some of the changes Pathfinder has made have kind been done in DnD at the same time (I've seen 5E Drow with purplish or gray skin). What's more, They strike me, given the popularity of Drizz't, to be creatures whose IP WotC would be very interested in protecting.
Maybe? On the other hand, the fact that the Svartelfar are coming straight out of the Prose Edda limits a decent chunk of their ability to prosecute and make it stick. Like, they'd have to carve the norse myth out of the heart of their own drow, then point at the rest and assert that it's a unique creation, then argue that Paizo is copying that.
For me? I'm just glad this carving away happened before a lot of these more potentially problematic issues got carved into PF2 too hard.
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On the other hand, the fact that the Svartelfar are coming straight out of the Prose Edda limits a decent chunk of their ability to prosecute and make it stick.They don't have to "make it stick". They don't even have to win.
All of the talk about Hasbro filing IP cases based on whether or not they can win is irrelevant.
Hasbro has shown that it is willing to use the legal system to financially batter other companies. All they need to do is file the lawsuit, and then sit back to watch the smaller company bankrupt itself paying the lawyers it has to hire to defend its perfectly legal use of material from older sources.
If you want Paizo (and other non-WotC publishers) to spend most of their income paying lawyers to defend them against Hasbro, rather than paying creative people to invent new stories, then sure, Paizo might win a pyrrhic victory.
But personally, I'd rather see them budget for more stories than more lawyers.
Amusingly, the recent influx of fresh cash from people leaving 5e for PF2 likely enables Paizo to now do both at the same time.
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They don't have to "make it stick". They don't even have to win.
All of the talk about Hasbro filing IP cases based on whether or not they can win is irrelevant.
Hasbro has shown that it is willing to use the legal system to financially batter other companies. All they need to do is file the lawsuit, and then sit back to watch the smaller company bankrupt itself paying the lawyers it has to hire to defend its perfectly legal use of material from older sources.
If you want Paizo (and other non-WotC publishers) to spend most of their income paying lawyers to defend them against Hasbro, rather than paying creative people to invent new stories, then sure, Paizo might win a pyrrhic victory.
But personally, I'd rather see them budget for more stories than more lawyers.
I mean at that point, all other RPGs should just close up shop, since clearly if the point isn't to win than they could use the same tactic for anything vaguely fantasy.
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I don’t like [drow] being in that quote when what he said was “Formian.” That’s misleading.
Creative Director
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I don’t like [drow] being in that quote when what he said was “Formian.” That’s misleading.
It is. (And thank you for adjusting the quote! :)
Drow are on even shakier ground than deros or formians because other than the word itself and the very basic concept of "dark elves" (itself a trope we're trying to avoid, since using "dark" as a synonym for "evil" is part of the problem) is it. All the rest is D&D, and so we can't lean back to a pre-D&D incarnation of them and have them even remotely serve the same role they do in our Darklands.
That said, while I'm sure some folks out there would not mind if all other RPGs should just close up shop, that's never going to happen. No more so than all movies that aren't Marvel superhero movies going away. The RPG industry may be small, but it's infinitely large in its capacity to host different games.
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Creative Director
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James posted while I was fixing my inadvertent misquote of what he said in the other thread. Sorry James.
And I was posting my thanks for fixing the thread while you were doing that. It's all good!
This whole transition to the remastered rules IS going to be bumpy, folks, and we're doing all we can to make it as smooth as possible. Part of that is managing expectations, and part of THAT isn't flooding everything at once.
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To me, the Drow and the Caligni are kind of the same thing in Pathfinder. The former are the Elves that fled underground after Earthfall, and the latter are the Azlanti who fled underground after Earthfall. The differences between these two people should probably be mostly about the relative lifespans of humans versus elves.
But since Humans vastly outnumber Elves on the surface, it strikes me that Drow should be commensurately rare compared to Caligni in the Darklands.
If there's any sort of "Darklands version of a surface people" that should be relatively more common in the Darklands compared to their surface analogue, it's whatever we're calling the Dwarves that didn't do the quest for the sky or the ones that turned back, since Dwarves are native to this place in a way that others are not.
B- Edgy elves are cooler than regular elves.
Well... any heritage can be used to play an Emo Hipster Elf. ;)
But since Humans vastly outnumber Elves on the surface, it strikes me that Drow should be commensurately rare compared to Caligni in the Darklands.
Fair point, though bear in mind that the caligni represent not even a fraction of the diversity of humans in the Inner Sea, being the descendents of a particular settlement. Granted, the drow are likewise only the descendents of those elves who chose to go underground about it, but that strikes me as a larger proportion of the elf population as a whole.
(Mind, I don't know if we have any knowledge on whether caligni generations are as fast as humans relative to elves, but on the other hand I feel like the greater limiting factor on both populations will be the sustainable populations in the Darklands)
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AD&D 2E had a solution to the issue of drow skin color that Paizo has already partially implemented.
The Mwangi Expanse has dark skinned elves that are not at all evil. A few elves descended from Mwangi Expanse elves may have descended into the Darklands, where they became the drow. So why didn't their skin color become lighter? If you look at the selective pressure that drove humans to develop lighter skin (giving those humans a better ability to synthesize vitamin D in areas with less sunlight than the tropics), that pressure does not exist underground -- so drow skin color, if it evolves at all, would do so in a more or less random way.
In other words, the drow did not become dark skinned as a result of any "curse" -- they simply retained the skin color of their ancestors. And that would imply that drow in the Darklands under Arcadia or Tian Xia would probably have noticeably lighter skin colors, as their ancestors are less likely to have originated in the Mwangi Expanse or a similar region with dark skinned elves.
The problem with this type of explanation is that it is complex!
In the end, many people will end up simplifying the association with black/dark = evil. Which is problematic in many ways. So it's that thing, if there could be a problem you'll have to explain yourself to avoid any misunderstandings, then it's better not to start with that.
It's better to simply remove the skin color with a relevant fact and that's it! In the same way that almost all ancestries have color variations, depending on their ethnicity, something that for me was really nice on Paizo's part, even to give more life and diversity to the game! Even Goblins and Orcs are not necessarily green!
Without this even the term Dark Elf can be used without any problems, because the elves will not necessarily be of a single color. But just in case I would change it to something like Underdark Elf, Subterrain Elves or whatever you think is best.
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AD&D 2E had a solution to the issue of drow skin color that Paizo has already partially implemented.The Mwangi Expanse has dark skinned elves that are not at all evil.
In other words, the drow did not become dark skinned as a result of any "curse" -- they simply retained the skin color of their ancestors.
I get that people have tried to retcon the origin. In fact that origin is not even in modern D&D even if modern Elder Scrolls games have kept it.
But it's still part of the history.
The original Drow started out light skinned, then they rejected the elf god. That god 'marked' them by making them Black as a sign of their rejection.
That's the Curse of Ham. And it was used to justify slavery in the real world. That "curse" is so toxic that Popes during the era when Popes would murder the husbands of their own daughters so they could bed those daughters - those guys declared it a heresy.
Like... some of the worst people in history took a look at this and said "nah... I'm gonna have to pass on that, that's just not cool."
But then they created the Drow for D&D - it was the origin story they gave them.
You can't just get that stain out with a simple "Ok... they're still evil, and they're still black people... but, it's for a different reason now."
You need a much more dramatic cleanup job than that.
Also... the Drow of PF2E live up in the northwest above Cheliax. Nowhere near Mwangi. The climate above where they live is probably more like northern France.
It's probably too hard to 100% retcon them out of existence in PF2E - but I think they won't get past this issue unless they change how they look AND change their origin story (because in PF1E lore - they used a variation on Curse of Ham for them).
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Drow
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When Earthfall struck, the Darklands were shaken by tremendous tremors, strong enough to briefly wake Rovagug, the god of destruction who had been imprisoned far below during the Age of Creation. As his wakened mind reached out, it touched the cave where the elves had sequestered themselves, and mixed with the Darklands' strange radiations and the elves' own feelings of betrayal and anger. It transformed them, turning their hair white and skin dark, and replaced the race's natural tendencies towards independence and good with Rovagug's evil; these elves became the first generation of drow.
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In this one, they are black and evil for the same reason - but not because they betrayed.
So that's still a toxic mess.
Making them "White" frankly... would just be flipping the coin to the other side. Still a toxic mess as It still doesn't solve the "skin color as a sign of morality" problem.
Linking appearance to morality is a toxic thing to do.
Making morality an inborn trait is a toxic thing to do.
Making an entire "race" evil is a toxic thing to do.
All three of these things are deeply ingrained to the 'concept' of the Drow.
I pity whoever has been tasked with cleaning this mess up.
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I have talked to black people who don't see the issue
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I hope you realize that that is problematic logic.
It's like saying, "I have a [insert some type here] friend who has no problem with me using the [blank] word, so it's fine if I just walk around singing that word out at the top of my lungs."
Just because one person doesn't see an issue or doesn't know the history of a concept doesn't clean it up.
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Drow in D&D are sadly more directly wrapped up with real world racial tensions than anything else the old 1970s game ever did.
It's not something one can just handwave away because it so directly ties to some extremely bad real world stuff.
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We are once again arguing about black-skinned Drow, who have never existed in PF2. Why?
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As someone who was alive and playing when drow were first introduced, no one went in a political direction and my gaming group was diverse before diversity was pushed so hard.
There was a time in the world where everyone didn't automatically try to fit square pegs into round holes trying to politicize everything. They played the game and enjoyed the novelty or surprise of something new.
Drow were some evil elves that showed up in the basement of the Fire Giant King that no one knew what they were. We fought them when they tried to kill us.
The drow were made as a surprise enemy in a module way back when. They didn't even to my knowledge have a fully developed background until they became popular and gamers started asking, "Who are these weird elves?"
Then it was developed more in the Vault of Drow series until you got to square off against Lolth, Queen of the Demonweb pits. One of the first times I recall squaring off against a named Demon Lord.
Pretty fun series of modules. We had a blast playing it.
The drow became immensely popular. So Gygax kept building on them until you could play them. Then everyone and their mother wanted to play one because of how cool they were.
Magic resistance. Free Ambidexterity. Bad ass two weapon fighting style. Powerful innate magical powers. Always described as beautiful, lithe, and extraordinarily badass.
Not sure when someone decided to take the drow and turn them into some pseudointellectual attempt to tack on real world implications to their existence. It certainly wasn't Joe Gamer who wanted to play a powerful drow PC.
I can only attribute this to the modernistic attempts to politicize nearly everything and try to tack on some hidden agenda to something that was created by an author trying to add something cool, scary, and different to his game.
Drow happened to have grown so popular over the years that everyone and their mother has something to say about them. For those us that enjoyed this Gygaxian creation when it first came out, I can with surety say no one was thinking of anything real world when they were first released.
They were some cool type of elf that kept growing in popularity due to the creative choices Gygax made when designing them. It was pretty fun to be some ambidextrous, magic resistant two-weapon fighting obsidian skinned elf with violet eyes and silver or white hair. The imagery was always very cool.
Forgotten Realms ran with it and when Drizz't was born, the rest is history.
I get it. Paizo is having to respond to nearly every criticism of their game to appease a certain segment of their audience. Some of us can view domination magic as some archetypal type of magic found in fantasy and some don't want anyone using such magic without a disclaimer.
Makes you miss the days when the hobby was small and the world wasn't so interested in making everything conform to some singular view of the world. But those days are gone and Paizo has to do what Paizo has to do. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the old school Paizo designers don't miss the days when everything they made wasn't focused on some political element and they could enjoy the hobby like they did when they were kids and all of it was new. I know I miss those days sometimes seeing these types of threads over and over and over again devolve into some political argument because someone just can't help but going there.
But what can you do. That's the modern world. Paizo's a business that has to make sure not to drive off part of their market.
We are once again arguing about black-skinned Drow, who have never existed in PF2. Why?
Go look them up on the Pathfinder wiki. See also The PF2E Bestiary, page 136.
Only difference between the wiki and the 2E bestiary is the skin went from 'dark' to 'lavender'. But the reason didn't change.
It doesn't matter what color you pick - if you're still making a race who got it's skin color because it sinned, you've still got a problem.
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We are once again arguing about black-skinned Drow, who have never existed in PF2. Why?
the very basic concept of "dark elves" (itself a trope we're trying to avoid,
And from the look of things, never will exist in PF2.
If you want it that much, homebrew it.
We are once again arguing about black-skinned Drow, who have never existed in PF2. Why?Go look them up on the Pathfinder wiki.
They exist in PF1 and Starfinder.
But not in PF2.
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We are once again arguing about black-skinned Drow, who have never existed in PF2. Why?Go look them up on the Pathfinder wiki.
You find them for me in a Pathfinder Second Edition book and then we'll talk. Lots of things from 1e were left behind, usually with good reason.
Also, just because you can make connections doesn't necessarily mean those connections are factually true; or anything more than conjecture, coincidence, or misplaced causation or correlation.I could be completely wrong that water is wet here... and it still wouldn't matter.
Plenty of other things are wet too. Doesn't mean it's water, though. At best you have to state that water exists, and based on the connotation we're discussing, it only exists if you allow it or assume it does. And the rules/setting don't do that, meaning it's all speculation or self-inserted, in which case, it's not an inherent problem, whereas you're saying it is, and again, it only is if you insert that or assume it's already there.
After all, comparing an ancestry to a fundamental element isn't exactly an apples to oranges comparison, either. Dark Elves/Drow aren't water.
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I don’t like [drow] being in that quote when what he said was “Formian.” That’s misleading.It is. (And thank you for adjusting the quote! :)
Drow are on even shakier ground than deros or formians because other than the word itself and the very basic concept of "dark elves" (itself a trope we're trying to avoid, since using "dark" as a synonym for "evil" is part of the problem) is it. All the rest is D&D, and so we can't lean back to a pre-D&D incarnation of them and have them even remotely serve the same role they do in our Darklands.
Damn, that sounds tricky. I still hope you can feature them without them losing their vibe. I'd also take a similar vibe that is more interesting ;)
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Have you read the Bestiary? It's considered one of the essential books that most people own, and if you look on Archives of Nethys (which you have access to right now) you'll find that Drow are also in the Abomination Vaults Adventure Path.You find them for me in a Pathfinder Second Edition book and then we'll talk. Lots of things from 1e were left behind, usually with good reason.We are once again arguing about black-skinned Drow, who have never existed in PF2. Why?Go look them up on the Pathfinder wiki.
Got it pulled up in a tab in front of me. The word "black" is pulling up 0 hits, because it doesn't describe their skintone anywhere... but all the art has them in shades of grey, lilac, and blue.
So again - got a 2e source for them being black-skinned?
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It was still taught in the USA up until 1978 when the last major church - one that is very prominent in Utah, finally quietly put it aside.
I grew up in Utah and am very intimately familiar with the two separate instances within the LDS church that do this. One for indigenous folk and one for black people. Part of the extremely bad vibe of the drow... Even if you retroactively make their skin lilac or periwinkle instead of gray