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Okay so Paladin is actually a class I really like.
I know a lot of people don't and that's fine, but I think Paladins can be a lot of fun if you play them right.
And I think the dynamic of a Paladin from a traditionally evil race such as Goblins, Drow, or Deep One Hybrids could produce some very very interesting roleplay.
So, with that being said, tell me about your monstrous-race Paladins.
I for one a Hobgoblin Holy Guide Paladin of Sarenrae. I haven't figured out much about her yet, but mechanics-wise she's mostly focused on Dex and Cha, with the Authoritative alternate race trait and Dervish Dance feat at 3rd level. I intend to play her as a very kind, yet firm maternal sort of character who obviously loves and cares for those around her but doesn't take any s!&@.
Now that you mention it, I really am surprised I don't see that more. It may simply be from the rarity of +Charisma in "evil" pc races.
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Now that you mention it, I really am surprised I don't see that more. It may simply be from the rarity of +Charisma in "evil" pc races.
Drow Paladin could be fun
How about a Demonspawn or Pitborn Tiefling Paladin? Str and Cha +2, Int -2; +2 on Intimidate, Knowledge (Religion); Shatter 1/day as an SLA?
Are Tieflings actually "traditionally evil"?
Like sure the blurb says so but I have yet to see an evil Tiefling in any game I've played - PC or NPC
Half Orcs make great paladins when they take ferocious resolve. You literally have to kill them to stop them. Take fey foundling and they become even harder to take down. You could do the same with a full orc, but the penalty to mental stats including CHA is harsh. They are a standard race, but many they do tend to be perceived as tending towards evil.
As we discuss this, the problem may be that so few races are really portrayed as evil. As said, even the tieflings whose subtypes are associated with specific alignments of evil are almost never actually portrayed as evil in stories, modules and APs.
Half-orcs are somewhat abundant, but I've met way more non-evil than evil half-orcs
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Now that you mention it, I really am surprised I don't see that more.
Maybe because the basic concept is too overdone already? Plus, when you go for the "only good member of the evil race" cliche, you should really go all the way and play a drow dual wielding scimitars...
I have yet to see an evil Tiefling in any game I've played - PC or NPC
And that is the issue with this concept. Every PC you see of a "traditionally evil race" is non-evil, because you virtually never have evil PCs. And you can't interact much with evil NPCs beyond fighting them, especially not with ones not being able to blend in, so all the named NPCs you see are non-evil, too.
Of course, whith every PC or NPC you see being non-evil, the 'gap moe' of your character 'breaking the mold' simply doesn't exist. Like the joke that the entire Drow race "consists of nothing but Chaotic Good revels, yearning to throw off the reputation of their evil kin", because everyone and the kitchen sink plays a Drizzt clone.
Ultimately, there is no "traditionally evil race" when it comes to PCs. The game actually outright tells you as much: "" ARG pg. 82
As we discuss this, the problem may be that so few races are really portrayed as evil.
For good reason. First, it's really boring - a character that's evil because their race is always evil basically has no motivation. And second, a true "always evil" race cannot have free will, and that means it's literally impossible to play oen as a PC. So the best you can do is an evil society, but for the members of that society that are fine with it being evil it doesn't really make sense to be away from said society. Which means that unless you actually visit the society in a campaign, you only have contact with the non-evil outsiders (in the non-game meaning of the term)... which basically brings us back to square one.
Maybe because the basic concept is too overdone already? Plus, when you go for the "only good member of the evil race" cliche, you should really go all the way and play a drow dual wielding scimitars...
"Only good member of an evil race"?
Bro...
No...
I just like playing good characters and also traditionally evil races. Don't be a jerk.
And that is the issue with this concept. Every PC you see of a "traditionally evil race" is non-evil, because you virtually never have evil PCs. And you can't interact much with evil NPCs beyond fighting them, especially not with ones not being able to blend in, so all the named NPCs you see are non-evil, too.
Literally half the people I've played with regularly played evil characters. One of them literally derailed the campaign and killed two of my characters by becoming an overpowered lich.
Of course, whith every PC or NPC you see being non-evil, the 'gap moe' of your character 'breaking the mold' simply doesn't exist. Like the joke that the entire Drow race "consists of nothing but Chaotic Good revels, yearning to throw off the reputation of their evil kin", because everyone and the kitchen sink plays a Drizzt clone.
Dude what is it with you and Drizzt clones? I just like monstrous races and also being a nice person?
For good reason. First, it's really boring - a character that's evil because their race is always evil basically has no motivation. And second, a true "always evil" race cannot have free will, and that means it's literally impossible to play oen as a PC. So the best you can do is an evil society, but for the...
I will agree with this
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The idea of playing a paladin from a race that is traditionally evil is somewhat of a cliché. Just because something is a cliché does not mean the player should not do it. The reason it is a cliché is because it has appeal to a lot of people. Why should someone have to give up playing something they think as interesting because someone else has already done it?
If you do want something a little different consider a dusknight instead of a holy guide. If you do that keep the sneaky racial trait. That would work well with a DEX based dervish dancing paladin. You give up the extra damage from smite evil, but will probably have a better stealth roll than the rogue. Take a trait to get perception as a class skill and max out stealth and perception. Use you favored class bonus to get extra skills. Now you are the scout instead of the rogue.
I just like playing good characters and also traditionally evil races. Don't be a jerk.
What you quoted and responded to was not addressed at you, nor was it about you. I responded to Melkiador with why in my believe the concept isn't used more.
Dude what is it with you and Drizzt clones? I just like monstrous races and also being a nice person?
What is it with you and taking everything as a personal insult? I was answering your question, drawing parallels to a similar case. At no point did I tell you what to do or not to do.
And I think you mean that you like playing a nice person, because you certainly aren't showcasing being a nice person.
How about a Demonspawn or Pitborn Tiefling Paladin? Str and Cha +2, Int -2; +2 on Intimidate, Knowledge (Religion); Shatter 1/day as an SLA?
I've actually got a Demonspawn Tiefling Paladin of Iomedae planned out for a campaign my group plans to run after one of our current ones ends...
I just like playing good characters and also traditionally evil races. Don't be a jerk.What you quoted and responded to was not addressed at you, nor was it about you. I responded to Melkiador with why in my believe the concept isn't used more.
Dude what is it with you and Drizzt clones? I just like monstrous races and also being a nice person?What is it with you and taking everything as a personal insult? I was answering your question, drawing parallels to a similar case. At no point did I tell you what to do or not to do.
And I think you mean that you like playing a nice person, because you certainly aren't showcasing being a nice person.
I simply feel like a lot of the attitudes you put on display here prevented me from playing characters I would have very much enjoyed in the past.
I do have a tendency to get defensive, this is a problem, however I do think the attitudes you hold towards people who play good characters from "evil" races might be a bit toxic.
...however I do think the attitudes you hold towards people who play good characters from "evil" races might be a bit toxic.
Obviously I'm not who you're replying to, but I think you're probably right. However, I do hold the same opinion myself - there's just something that aggravates a nerve when you see your Nth tiefling paladin or similar. I'm not sure where that comes from (if not just Mr. Do'Urden), but it seems widespread enough that it's worth recognizing and planning for if you want to play this archetype.
"Planning for" just means avoiding the stereotypes, and maybe sounding folks out a bit and reassuring them. It may not be necessary if everyone was starting 'fresh', but you can be 'in the right' and still benefit from respecting how the presentation may impact others.
...however I do think the attitudes you hold towards people who play good characters from "evil" races might be a bit toxic.Obviously I'm not who you're replying to, but I think you're probably right. However, I do hold the same opinion myself - there's just something that aggravates a nerve when you see your Nth tiefling paladin or similar. I'm not sure where that comes from (if not just Mr. Do'Urden), but it seems widespread enough that it's worth recognizing and planning for if you want to play this archetype.
"Planning for" just means avoiding the stereotypes, and maybe sounding folks out a bit and reassuring them. It may not be necessary if everyone was starting 'fresh', but you can be 'in the right' and still benefit from respecting how the presentation may impact others.
This is completely fair
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The thing that people have to understand is that almost any concept has already been done before. No matter how clever you think your character is chances are that someone has already done something similar. D&D is nearly 50 years old and there are there are a lot of other systems that have come out since then. I have been gaming nearly as long and have seen massive amounts of characters in multiple different game systems. I have played characters that literally died getting off a boat to characters that became gods, and everything in between. So, when you get prissy about a new player doing something you have seen dozens of times before keep in mind that the characters you created when you first started had already been seen by us old-timers. What may be an old tired stereotype to you is probably something new and exciting to others. Don’t spoil their fun with your self-righteous attitude.
I don't mind the 'Paladin from evil race' trope. There is usually a deeper story going on, specifically that age-old one of redemption from evil the most unlikely place. I, too, like to play characters that are a bundle of surface level contradictions that get played out in the game to eventually find out which traits become dominate, all to see what the character inevitably turns into.
I've even played a handful of characters like that recently:
A venerable aasimar barbarian that believes himself to be a wizard. An utter pacifist until it is time to pass-a-fist across someone's face because they won't listen to peaceful talk. High (relatively) mental stats, lots of points in UMD and Bluff, Item Mastery feats, and tons of butt-kicking.
A tiefling Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue that had their sights set on becoming a Paladin, though found themselves unable to walk that straight and narrow path for several reasons. They still managed to earn a level of respect and admiration from people on par with what I afforded to a Paladin, and that was enough to satisfy them in the long run.
A half-elf Magus that eventually become a Chosen One Paladin (with the Magus VMC) over the course of a campaign, who had a checkered past that made it a rough road even with the help of the divine emissary sent to him to guide him along. Mechanically, it involved getting a familiar as a Magus and then 'down time' retraining.
A while back: A NE Tiefling Oracle of Life that served both the church of Asmodeus and the church of Callistra. It was in the Hell's Vengeance campaign. He was eventually disgusted with the Chelixian government and the churches in general, and ended up swayed by the forces of Good to walk a different path.
I've even done the inverse, playing characters that come from generally 'good' aligned races that fall from grace and never manage to get back up to it. I generally avoid playing outright 'evil' characters because I get enough role-play on that end of the spectrum as a GM.
I’m now wondering about the history of this character type. I know Drizzt wasn’t the first, though Im doubtful he was inspired by Vampire Hunter D. I suspect he was a bit inspired by Nasir from Robin Hood, while not from an evil race he is a widely mistrusted foreigner.
The weird thing is that people act like they've seen so many Drizzt clones that they are sick of it. But I've hardly seen any. Certainly not enough to be sick of them. I did make a character inspired by Vampire Hunter D way back in the day.
Is this just a regional thing, or was there a very specific period in time where this was a fad?
So, I would expect anyone whose formative years of gaming were in the early 90s to have experienced it to a higher degree than others.
I caught the tail end of this experience. Not enough to sour me to the whole thing, but enough to raise an eyebrow when I see similar trends pop up in playing certain types of characters.
... Like with Kitsunes. I do not quite get why they are so popular where I live.
While I enjoyed Drizzt the character, I was always more fascinated by the dystopian quality of Menzoberranzan itself. I completely got the point of Drizzt's escape and the narrative cycle it aimed toward, but Zaknafein and his struggle to survive in his dark homeland were what really hooked me.
Getting off topic but I assume kitsune popularity is mostly a combination of anime and furry fans. But also, their racial options are just clearly better than other races a lot of the time. It also helps that a lot of pathfinder options favor dexterity and charisma.
Getting off topic but I assume kitsune popularity is mostly a combination of anime and furry fans. But also, their racial options are just clearly better than other races a lot of the time. It also helps that a lot of pathfinder options favor dexterity and charisma.
Meh, I'd pick the half-elf 90% of the time if I was looking at racial options. I get the anime/furry thing. I'm on the fringe of the anime crowd and interact with a lot of people more into it than me. Even accounting for all of that, it seems excessive for how many people want to play one. I just need to sit down, design a short adventure for everyone to play a kitsune and let them get it out of their system.
While I enjoyed Drizzt the character, I was always more fascinated by the dystopian quality of Menzoberranzan itself. I completely got the point of Drizzt's escape and the narrative cycle it aimed toward, but Zaknafein and his struggle to survive in his dark homeland were what really hooked me.
I am/was in the same boat.
I read those books so long ago I don’t really remember what happened. I remember a cool dwarf who tackled people with spiked armor. Drizzt felt like a Mary Sue, like the guy was just automatically better at everything.
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To get this back on track...
While I'm not particularly fond of tropes one reason I don't have a problem with Paladins from evil races is that it feels like the sort of thing good deities would do to combat evil deities who are dependent on specific cultures/nations/races for their power. If you send a bunch of human Paladins in an Orc realm, that's basically a crusade by another name, and will get the expected response. If you somehow mold a bunch of Orc Paladins who then go around the same realm affecting change from within, that has the potential to change the paradigm itself (though with admittedly low odds of success).
I threw out the "built-in racial alignment" years and years ago, going all the way back to 2e AD&D (I've also forbidden Drizz't clones, heh). The only exception I've made are creatures from planes where alignments are dictated by their nature. If a creature is a demon, then it's intrinsically evil, with the only exceptions being a very rare NPC or PC.